Two thoughts after reading this thread. First, I'm surprised at how many people are literally writing fictional rationalizations for why these kids might not really be racist. Im not even sure what to do with that. Second, the problem with race is NOT that people are taking about it and the media is covering it. The problem with racism is that it is persistent and systemic. OU Greek has had racist issues year after year, but they just haven't all made the news. Is anyone listening to OU's black students, including football players, who have been discussing regular race problems since before this incident?

What we need to do is have honest and humble conversations about race. MLK said the biggest problem with race in this country is the white moderate who prefers order over justice. Or, the go to for so many these days, deflection. I hear white people talk about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson far more than anyone else. We can do better and the place to start is to realize that racism is alive and well as OU's students said.

At least it wasn't 99 bottles on the wall. That calls for a mercy killing. They need to make a reality program about 2 Aframs in a really nice car with the car loaded with internal and external cams and mics. Have them drive around the country and really see how bad DWB really is.

Made the news here in Seattle tonight...

I recall when I was 8 years old; while at the State Fair of Oklahoma, I noticed a flag that was different from our current flag. It was a small version of the 'confederate flag,' my mom (who is Mexican) smiled when I threw a fit to purchase it. She let me buy it; she always claimed that I was bullheaded. I carried it around waving it throughout the fair ;), that flag remained in my room until the 6th grade. It was a history lesson the Dominion nuns at St. Martin De Porres had culminated (lessons) as a part of history that shed new light on that confederate flag.

Now as I become more aware of my environment and the incidents back then that occurred in my neighborhood (dead black baby found in dryer, black children kidnapped, black children rapped, sodomized reported by OKC's two black weekly newspapers--Black Dispatch & Oklahoma City Post) that I realized the dangers that existed.

As I returned home for lunch following that morning's Christian Doctrine class (old Baltimore catechism) & Civics class (Confederacy) I placed that flag in my closet. It remained there for quite some time until one day I discovered that it was gone. Mother had packed it away with the winter clothes.

Yes, for 4 years of my life I was naïve about the history of the confederate flag, it hung in my room for years :biggrin: (LMAO). We learned that the flag (confederate) represented a dark park of our history. It was then that I learned about the history of the South and the infamous Tulsa 1921 race riots.

We had our own sports (basketball, track & field) wars with the other Catholic Schools which included John Carroll, Christ the King, Rosary, St. Patrick, St. James, St. Philip Neri (MWC), Corpus Christi, Sacred Heart, Little Flower & St. Augustine's (Tulsa).

Racism and Bigotry were apart of our lives, it was alive among both Whites & Blacks. The dioceses of Oklahoma City (pre Archdiocese era) closed St. Martin's in 1962, our school merged with Corpus Christi (15th & Kelly) and the black community further expanded north of 13th Street (Medical Center Area) into Wildwood then beyond 50th toward Musgrave .

We were encouraged in the OKC Catholic Schools to attend Bishop McGuiness or Mount St. Mary to further our education. The nuns did not tolerate racism of any kind; they were very outspoken against it in any form (white or black). Yes, St. Martin De Porres had it share of minorities (Blacks, Indians, Hispanics).

Lead story on the Today Show this morning.

I was a DU at OU from '78 to '82 and I know we didn't have any racial lines, but the songs were beyond vulgar.

We did, however, have an elderly housemother from Alabama who only referred to African Americans by the n-word. I hated it and everyone else did too, but she still did it openly and frequently.

The irony is that she was an expert on etiquette and I still remember and carry many of her lessons we were forced to endure.

Just shows how messed up the Southern culture was back in her day where people went to extreme measures to be 'proper', then had such contempt and hatred for people of color.

Pete - since you were a DU, here's a story I posted yesterday on Facebook that you may know something about:

The evil racist chant video from SAE fraternity members gives me the opportunity to tell a story. Back when I went to OU, one of my good friends in the 1967 OU President's Leadership Class was Tony Gilkey. He became the first Black member of a predominately white fraternity at OU. Tony invited me to visit his fraternity, Delta Upsilon, and they asked me to join (my sophomore year). This was the only fraternity I really considered joining since they also had Jewish members and Native American members. When I was a freshman, I always asked other fraternities that I visited if they had any Black or Jewish members at their chapter & I often received a chilly negative response.

During the summer before my freshman year, one fraternity took me to see James Brown performing at the Municipal Auditorium. I later discovered they were all white, all Christian & intended to stay that way, so I had no interest in pledging that fraternity -- or any other since no fraternity back then (that was rushing me) was interested in making changes to the status quo.

More videos popping up. Hard to confirm if authentic but bet they will start going viral if they get verified. And probably if they don't.

News is reporting of the video which is going around of SAE house mom. I saw it last night and purports to be her using N word over and over and appearing in a drunken state. KOCO said not releasing it until they can confirm its authenticity. But its making the social media rounds.

Lead story on the Today Show this morning.

University of Oklahoma student: Sigma Alpha Epsilon's behavior 'not an isolated incident' - News - TODAY.com (http://www.today.com/news/university-oklahoma-student-sigma-alpha-epsilons-behavior-not-isolated-incident-2D80540450)

What year were you in sae?

I was not in a frat. I played baseball in college. I hate OU too.

How the heck did you come to that conclusion? My whole post was about how racist people are, and how the media only likes one side and is incredibly dangerous.

Wow, some people....

I saw on one of the news stories the freshmen involved didn't even live at the Frat House and all lived in the dorms.

Two thoughts after reading this thread. First, I'm surprised at how many people are literally writing fictional rationalizations for why these kids might not really be racist. Im not even sure what to do with that. Second, the problem with race is NOT that people are taking about it and the media is covering it. The problem with racism is that it is persistent and systemic. OU Greek has had racist issues year after year, but they just haven't all made the news. Is anyone listening to OU's black students, including football players, who have been discussing regular race problems since before this incident?

What we need to do is have honest and humble conversations about race. MLK said the biggest problem with race in this country is the white moderate who prefers order over justice. Or, the go to for so many these days, deflection. I hear white people talk about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson far more than anyone else. We can do better and the place to start is to realize that racism is alive and well as OU's students said.

I can't believe how many people here are riving roundabout excuses for reasons why these kids aren't really racist. OR what they said/did isnt that bad. Despite this making every major news stations HEADLINE STORY. It makes me sick people would back these rich spoiled racists brats in any way shape or form.

I can't believe how many people here are riving roundabout excuses for reasons why these kids aren't really racist. OR what they said/did isnt that bad. Despite this making every major news stations HEADLINE STORY. It makes me sick people would back these rich spoiled racists brats in any way shape or form.


By God we should drag them through the streets and then flog them.

I saw on one of the news stories the freshmen involved didn't even live at the Frat House and all lived in the dorms.

Freshmen are not supposed to live in the Frat house. At least not when I went to OU. I lived in the frat house when I was a freshman, but it was made clear to me it was against the rules and not to tell anyone with the school.

By God we should drag them through the streets and then flog them.

hahaha! You are almost as funny as those drunk spoiled brats, maybe you guys should hang out at your next clan rally.

If the ACLU doesn't get involved in This Entire First Amendment/Fiasco---like, immediately/right now----on behalf of The Greeks on the bus, it will prove that ALL of us are/be Bozos on the Bus and the ACLU will have lost all street cred regarding stuff that really matters. No? Ditto t' Mel ^

It's not a First Amendment issue. The First Amendment applies only to acts of Congress, the state legislatures and municipal governments and even public universities. If SAE chooses to revoke it's chapter's charter and the local alumni decide to evict everyone from the chapter house, that's up to them. That's what happened. OU is under no obligation to recognize outside groups and has not expelled or taken action against any student as a result of this. SAE's national governance organization and their local alums have responded appropriately to this incident on their own so the ACLU is not needed at this point.

hahaha! You are almost as funny as those drunk spoiled brats, maybe you guys should hang out at your next clan rally.

I feel like you misunderstood kelroy's post...

no . SAE is Sigma Alpha Epsilon ("Sig Alp) . . . . Sig Ep is Sigma Phi Epsilon. . . (Sig Ep)

I was not confusing the two at all. Sig Ep and SAE are two major national fraternities which have eliminated pledging. Sig Ep has their "Balanced Man" program, which has actually had decent results... and I think they are now required to fully initiate new members within a very short time frame. SAE has recently done this as well. This has been done because both groups had historically been tagged with large judgments and settlements due to hazing incidents.

hahaha! You are almost as funny as those drunk spoiled brats, maybe you guys should hang out at your next clan rally.

Psssst it's spelled Klan.

I can't believe how many people here are riving roundabout excuses for reasons why these kids aren't really racist. OR what they said/did isnt that bad. Despite this making every major news stations HEADLINE STORY. It makes me sick people would back these rich spoiled racists brats in any way shape or form.

Personally, in my way of thinking of things (which obviously will differ from others).... unless you know these kids personally, you, nor I have any idea if they are 'racists.' Did they say racist and hateful things in that video? Yep. But being a 'racist' isn't about one comment caught on tape. If that's how we measure a 'racist' then I guess you're gonna have to attach that label to me, because I've certainly told an off color joke or two, or three in the past (covering most likely every race, including my own). And most (99.999999%) people who claim they've never done the same, or fat shamed, or belittled another based on their appearance is a liar (in public or in private). Only those closest to them can (with any credibility) come forward to say whether or not these individuals are racists - based on their pattern of behavior.

What they are, are individuals who made a HUGE mistake (if that's even the right word) and need to be dealt with in a rational manner that is proportionate to the infraction.

The fraternity obviously fostered an atmosphere where racism was not only tolerated, but forwarded by the sharing of such songs and the fact these fraternity members felt comfortable enough to loudly and proudly sing them. For that, the fraternity needs to go.

Like was pointed out earlier by Hoyasooner (and much better than I could), people like to be self-righteous. And in this case the self-righteousness can be found on both sides of the table by the offenders and the mob reacting to it.

Is 'a racist' a noun or a verb? Is it a specific action or a description? If its a noun then I guess "once a racist, always a racist." If its a verb, then I guess you're only a racist while you're doing racist things.

I'm not making excuses. I'm thinking out loud in a rational manner - which is a foreign concept to some of you.

The best part is people who are so upset because of the negative labeling of others, yet they have no issue placing their own labels on the offenders.

Let’s be honest here too.

I didn’t go to OU, but 25 years ago when I was in college, SAE’s rep was of being the “Old South” KKK style frat. It seems little has changed, and not just at OU:

Here are more SAE racist “incidents” I found around the web:

2014 - University of Arizona
Arizona’s SAE chapter was put on suspension last November after the school received reports that they attacked a Jewish fraternity. Members of SAE went over to the Alpha Epsilon Pi fraternity, where they banged on the door and shouted racist slurs. They also physically assaulted four members of AEPi.
Sadly, Tucson police did not feel that this was a hate crime, according to Tucson News Now. However, one student commented that he didn’t feel the incident was too surprising, given that this was SAE.

2014 Clemson
SAE’s Clemson University chapter hosted a “Cripmas” party, named after the California-based “Crips” street gang. Photos of the incident depicted attendees at this party flashing gang signs and dressed in costumes intended to make them look like gang members. Much of the chapter’s leadership resigned after this incident, and the chapter “suspended all activity indefinitely” shortly after the incident, according to a statement by SAE’s national office.

2013 Washington University in St. Louis
The chapter was suspended after pledges reportedly sang racial slurs to African American students. According to one description of the incident, One guy began to recite the lyrics to a rap song (Bitches Ain’t **** by Dr. Dre) as if it were a slam poem. He was reading the lyrics from his phone. The majority of the group of guys he was with found it funny and some were laughing. One member of the group was videoing the event on his phone. The guys in the group asked the black people in the booth to “show some respect” for the performance. As [redacted] continued to recite the lyrics, he came across the word “nigga” and said it with no hesitation. One of the black students tossed an empty bottle at him in anger only to be told by the group that it was part of the song, so it was okay. The black student replied that it was still offensive and the group apologized half-heartedly. The student later apologized and admitted that this stunt was “part of an initiation for Sigma Alpha Epsilon.” The president of the Wash. U. chapter also apologized on Facebook.

2009 Valdosta State University in Georgia
SAE hosted a community forum on “Heritage, Hate or Fear?” that was inspired by the university’s SAE chapter’s practice of flying a Confederate Flag on its front lawn. A lawyer for the fraternity’s national headquarters warned that the chapter could lose its charter if it continued to fly the flag.

2006 Memphis
An SAE member at the University of Memphis quit the fraternity after two other frat members harassed him for dating a black woman. According to an editorial in the Memphis Commercial Appeal, the former SAE member “said SAE members used the N-word to refer to his girlfriend” and that they “also suggested that he must have met Darden on the street one night and that he couldn’t possibly be interested in a real relationship with someone of another race.” The Associated Press later reported that two students were suspended by SAE’s national office after they determined that these students “made comments that were inappropriate and unbecoming.”

2006 Baylor
SAE’s Baylor University chapter hosted an “E-Dawg”-themed party that the university’s NAACP chapter labeled “insensitive.” According to the Baylor Lariat, pictures “captured students wearing bandanas and holding 40-ounce bottles in brown paper during the party. One of the pictures depicted a student who covered herself in bronzer in imitation of a black person.” The pictures were discovered after they were posted to Facebook.

2000 Oglethorpe University
SAE’s Oglethorpe University chapter was put on probation, along with chapters from three other fraternities, after an incident where African American students visiting from other schools faced racial harassment and assault. According to one news report uncovered on Nexis, officials at two predominantly black colleges that competed in a cross-county meet at Oglethorpe “complained that Oglethorpe students in fraternity houses threw bottles at athletes and screamed racial epithets.”

Worst of all, Bloomberg did a study and found SAE to be the nation’s deadliest frat:
Sigma Alpha Epsilon Deaths Most Among Frats - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/infographics/2013-12-30/sigma-alpha-epsilon-deaths-most-among-frats.html)

Personally, in my way of thinking of things (which obviously will differ from others).... unless you know these kids personally, you, nor I have any idea if they are 'racists.' Did they say racist and hateful things in that video? Yep. But being a 'racist' isn't about one comment caught on tape. If that's how we measure a 'racist' then I guess you're gonna have to attach that label to me, because I've certainly told an off color joke or two, or three in the past (covering most likely every race, including my own). And most (99.999999%) people who claim they've never done the same, or fat shamed, or belittled another based on their appearance is a liar (in public or in private). Only those closest to them can (with any credibility) come forward to say whether or not these individuals are racists - based on their pattern of behavior.

What they are, are individuals who made a HUGE mistake (if that's even the right word) and need to be dealt with in a rational manner that is proportionate to the infraction.

The fraternity obviously fostered an atmosphere where racism was not only tolerated, but forwarded by the sharing of such songs and the fact these fraternity members felt comfortable enough to loudly and proudly sing them. For that, the fraternity needs to go.

Like was pointed out earlier by Hoyasooner (and much better than I could), people like to be self-righteous. And in this case the self-righteousness can be found on both sides of the table by the offenders and the mob reacting to it.

Is 'a racist' a noun or a verb? Is it a specific action or a description? If its a noun then I guess "once a racist, always a racist." If its a verb, then I guess you're only a racist while you're doing racist things.

I'm not making excuses. I'm thinking out loud in a rational manner - which is a foreign concept to some of you.

The best part is people who are so upset because of the negative labeling of others, yet they have no issue placing their own labels on the offenders.

Well, some people think they can fix hatred with more hatred. They want revenge not justice.

I was not confusing the two at all. Sig Ep and SAE are two major national fraternities which have eliminated pledging. Sig Ep has their "Balanced Man" program, which has actually had decent results... and I think they are now required to fully initiate new members within a very short time frame. SAE has recently done this as well. This has been done because both groups had historically been tagged with large judgments and settlements due to hazing incidents.

They still has pledgeship process at OU. Not sure about national or other places but they do at OU I can promise you.

News is reporting of the video which is going around of SAE house mom. I saw it last night and purports to be her using N word over and over and appearing in a drunken state. KOCO said not releasing it until they can confirm its authenticity. But its making the social media rounds.

Is this true? If so then yikes this is a lot worse than we thought.

I hate that this happened because it's a black eye for OU. As an alum and former fraternity member it's sad that this is how fraternities will now be labeled. But at the same time if this was rampant behavior at the SAE house then they deserve to be kicked out and the students responsible punished.

Is this true? If so then yikes this is a lot worse than we thought.

I hate that this happened because it's a black eye for OU. As an alum and former fraternity member it's sad that this is how fraternities will now be labeled. But at the same time if this was rampant behavior at the SAE house then they deserve to be kicked out and the students responsible punished.

Racist Oklahoma Frat's House Mom Filmed Chanting Racist Slurs (http://gawker.com/racist-oklahoma-frats-house-mom-filmed-chanting-racist-1690497354)

So everyone is looking at the OU SAE incident as some sort of bad reflection on Oklahoma, but I think everyone is looking at this wrong. The video was deplorable and inexcusable, and the environment that would create that needs to be fixed. However, it's not an Oklahoma issue. It's a nationwide issue within SAE and the entire greek system. Don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. What is an Oklahoma issue is the response. How the state, how OU, how Boren, reacted to a small group of kids from all over the country who happened to belong to a frat at OU. And that response? Exceptional. We as a state, and OU as a college, made a clear statement that we don't condone that type of behavior, the hate, and the bigotry. I haven't seen folks defending them (and considering the sports environment in Oklahoma that's sort of surprising). The school made no excuses. Response was quick and decisive. We've seen similar events in the US at other fraternities, and I can't think of a single one with this type of immediate and strong response. Oklahoma Strong. So rather than looking for the bad today, acknowledge the good.

So everyone is looking at the OU SAE incident as some sort of bad reflection on Oklahoma, but I think everyone is looking at this wrong. The video was deplorable and inexcusable, and the environment that would create that needs to be fixed. However, it's not an Oklahoma issue. It's a nationwide issue within SAE and the entire greek system. Don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. What is an Oklahoma issue is the response. How the state, how OU, how Boren, reacted to a small group of kids from all over the country who happened to belong to a frat at OU. And that response? Exceptional. We as a state, and OU as a college, made a clear statement that we don't condone that type of behavior, the hate, and the bigotry. I haven't seen folks defending them (and considering the sports environment in Oklahoma that's sort of surprising). The school made no excuses. Response was quick and decisive. We've seen similar events in the US at other fraternities, and I can't think of a single one with this type of immediate and strong response. Oklahoma Strong. So rather than looking for the bad today, acknowledge the good.

I agree. I personally have a hard time remembering the specific colleges and states all the other fraternity or sorority negative events have occurred. To a lot of people across the nation this case just reaffirms the viewpoint that some fraternities are for rich, white, Republican kids.

At the end of day, Oklahoma will be known for being in the bible belt and F5 tornados. I don't see Oklahoma getting less religious anytime soon and nothing we can really do about the tornados.

So everyone is looking at the OU SAE incident as some sort of bad reflection on Oklahoma, but I think everyone is looking at this wrong. The video was deplorable and inexcusable, and the environment that would create that needs to be fixed. However, it's not an Oklahoma issue. It's a nationwide issue within SAE and the entire greek system. Don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. What is an Oklahoma issue is the response. How the state, how OU, how Boren, reacted to a small group of kids from all over the country who happened to belong to a frat at OU. And that response? Exceptional. We as a state, and OU as a college, made a clear statement that we don't condone that type of behavior, the hate, and the bigotry. I haven't seen folks defending them (and considering the sports environment in Oklahoma that's sort of surprising). The school made no excuses. Response was quick and decisive. We've seen similar events in the US at other fraternities, and I can't think of a single one with this type of immediate and strong response. Oklahoma Strong. So rather than looking for the bad today, acknowledge the good.

I agree with that sentiment that it is encouraging how swift the response came on this issue to show that this is not OK. However I am sure with it hitting national media that outside of our state the focus is on the action not the response to that action which is unfortunate.

FWIW, the house mom was apparently singing (rapping?) along with a cartoonish Trinidad James song, which is riddled with the N-word. Still, a really dumb choice on her part. DUMB. A house mom is supposed to help keep boys from doing stupid stuff like this, not participate in it.

NSFW video from Trinidad James song in question:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LOZhaxTw0I

Is this true? If so then yikes this is a lot worse than we thought.

I hate that this happened because it's a black eye for OU. As an alum and former fraternity member it's sad that this is how fraternities will now be labeled. But at the same time if this was rampant behavior at the SAE house then they deserve to be kicked out and the students responsible punished.

Let it all come out and take the hit now, I say. There are likely other videos and pics out there....you know journos right now are digging through Vine, Instagram, Flickr, etc.

As far as greek life is concerned, its very conflicting for me. I knew a lot of really good fraternity members. They were friends with me, a minority. And its unfortunate OU Greek is now getting put on blast worldwide as knee jerk bigots. At the same time, I never hear about racist themed parties, social media idiocy, or gang rapes coming from the campus glee club.

As an institution, I'm pretty much done with fraternities. Especially those from the south. The sad thing is compared to some of their SEC counterparts, what happened at OUSAE is fairly mild.

The two students seen in the video have been expelled.

Texas fraternity under fire for forbidding "deuschbags," "Mexicans" and interracial dating - Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/2015/03/10/texas_fraternity_under_fire_for_forbidding_deuschb ags_mexicans_and_interracial_dating/)


The University of Texas could have a lesson to learn from its rivals at OU about shutting down racist speech

Since this OU SAE thing was so outrageous, it seems to be the tipping point where all fraternities will now be subject to intense scrutiny.

It's similar to the Ray Rice incident where suddenly the entire sports world was put under the microscope on any issues involving physical abuse.

To a large extent, it shows the power of video. When people heard about the Rice incident, it wasn't a big deal. But as soon as you could see him hauling off and punching his fiance square in the face, everything changed. I have to say, it completely changed my perspective on that incident.

In this SAE situation, there was no disputing what actually happened. It's seen plainly on film and seeing it live in that way somehow makes it miles worse than if someone just had reported it.

Racism & Bigotry will continue to penetrate in all areas and endeavors throughout our country. I'll continue to pray for the best for the students involved in the SAE fraternity. Something has diverted and derailed the structured values system process in some of their lives; an important focus, let's hope they get back on track.

The University of Oklahoma has its image, reputation and integrity to protect as well as the rights of students to attend without being harassed or intimidated.

This has certainly been the headliners of the majority of news-media outlets throughout the country; not the kind of unsolicited free publicity any major institution would want. Madison Avenue couldn't have crafted a better bad market ad scenario for OU, we've got to take this negative and salvage what we can from this experience.

The two students seen in the video have been expelled.

I think the University is going to have a couple of civil rights cases on its hands.

Even hate speech is protected speech.

From a strictly RadicalModeratlerian Perspective--and that of one who saw at least a few of the excesses committed by those involved in "The Greek System" (back in the day, without ever actually participating nor filming nor texting/social medianizing): If the ACLU doesn't plunge in on the side of those "kollege kidz" idiot-morons in the name of Freedom of Speech (a.k.a. First Amendment) we are ALL Bozos on that Bus. (and the ACLU has lost the teeniest ort of street cred remaining imho.)

Perhaps the pre-(university)President (and former Senator) could drag the Boren Broom out of the closet and sweep all this under the rug? Nah. Too much like "O Brother Where Art Thou". =)

Sorry. Meant to post all that under the "Outrage du Jour" (newzfueled) heading.

If the SAE is banned . . . are we all going Metric? (sorry. geek joke)

They still has pledgeship process at OU. Not sure about national or other places but they do at OU I can promise you.

Sig Ep until recently had traditional chapters. I believe they are forcing all of their chapters to go Balanced Man now. Sig Alph announced the end of pledging last year. Not sure where they are on the implementation of that program. Speaking for my fraternity, our organization is at least nominally controlled by the collegiate membership, so I don't see that as a realistic possibility for us. And frankly, I think that if a chapter can successfully implement a non-hazing program (my undergrad chapter certainly has), then that's the best of both worlds.

I think the University is going to have a couple of civil rights cases on its hands.

Even hate speech is protected speech.

There is a student code of conduct, though.

And attending a university is not a civil right.


But certainly, this will be interesting to follow.

I personally resent the use of the term Sig Ep.
'nough sed.
SigAlphEp would be better.
wouldn't it?
How about "Double Secret Probation" as an alternative?
GGGGggggz (geez)

Edited to Add, in the interests of transparency:
1tfK_3XK4CI
like, duh.

There is a student code of conduct, though.

And attending a university is not a civil right.


But certainly, this will be interesting to follow.

I assumed that would be the route they would take. I'd love to see the actual verbiage on the SCOC. The tie the fraternity had with the University might be the bridge that got them to that decision (legally). I can't imagine a public university would/could legally expel a student who wasn't in a fraternity at a fraternity event who expressed 'racist' speech in a private (semi-private) setting.

Regardless, I think this was simply an opportunity for Boren to pat himself on the back. Expulsion is not the right answer in my opinion - yes, even if the tables were turned and it was some other race making the same comments regarding whites.

In President Borens statement he classified it as a distruption of education which is expellable by student conduct but agreed it will be interesting to follow.

From a strictly RadicalModeratlerian Perspective--and that of one who saw at least a few of the excesses committed by those involved in "The Greek System" (back in the day, without ever actually participating nor filming nor texting/social medianizing): If the ACLU doesn't plunge in on the side of those "college kidz" idiots in the name of Freedom of Speech (First Amendment) we are ALL Bozos on that Bus. (and the ACLU has lost the teeniest ort of street cred remaining imho.)

I think yesterday, when you tried to make the same point regarding the ACLU, you were wrong. No one who wanted to file suit would want to file suit since SAE dissolved the chapter and began the investigation as to which members to expel all on its own. That is a private decision and a private process and no one who is not a party to the incident has any right to know anything.

Now with the expulsion of the students, I would say "it depends."

I think a strong case can be made that the students' hate speech [protected] was not the direct reason for the expulsion, but rather the fact that the University could no longer guarantee their safety was. Also, I think the "fighting words" doctrine might actually apply here to suggest that the speech is not protected speech. Said doctrine suggests that the sort of speech which will predictably result in an immediate breach of the peace is not protected. That's a decent argument because a breach in the peace was achieved almost instantly. It's not a clear cut case either way, but if I had to pick a side which has the better argument, I'm going with Boren on this one.

I think he's reaching with that justification.

Legal issues aside, Boren pretty much had to take this action from a PR perspective.

Even more interesting is what will happen to others on that bus that were not easily identifiable in the two videos.

Since two different people not only took videos but shared them publicly (most likely women) you would think they could get people to cooperate enough to get a list of names, and maybe even get testimony about their involvement.

More people that those two were singing and clapping along, and that seems to be the sin that is being punished here and therefore that standard could easily be applied to others.

I think yesterday, when you tried to make the same point regarding the ACLU, you were wrong. No one who wanted to file suit would want to file suit since SAE dissolved the chapter and began the investigation as to which members to expel all on its own. That is a private decision and a private process and no one who is not a party to the incident has any right to know anything.

Now with the expulsion of the students, I would say "it depends."

I think a strong case can be made that the students' hate speech [protected] was not the direct reason for the expulsion, but rather the fact that the University could no longer guarantee their safety was. Also, I think the "fighting words" doctrine might actually apply here to suggest that the speech is not protected speech. Said doctrine suggests that the sort of speech which will predictably result in an immediate breach of the peace is not protected. That's a decent argument because a breach in the peace was achieved almost instantly. It's not a clear cut case either way, but if I had to pick a side which has the better argument, I'm going with Boren on this one.

I see your line of thinking. Don't know if its correct or not, but I can certainly follow it.

However, personally, if the university is taking the stand they can no longer guarantee the students safety, then I would have hoped he would have given them the opportunity to withdraw on their own and hopefully make a public apology.

I think expelling them does little to defuse their personal situation and actually makes rectifying the situation worse.

Interested to see how the university reacts if a non-frat student is on tape making a racist comment or is outed as a member of a racist organization. Will they expel them too? How far can a public university flex that muscle. A private university is a totally different animal.

I doubt the correct legal answer has Boren losing any sleep. Having litigated against the University in the past, their staff attorneys do an excellent job and more than know their way around a federal courthouse.

I think it might be time to cut, posthaste, to the conclusion of this matter of academic and societal import. Perhaps a reviewing of Walt Disney's version of "Song of The South" in order to approach a semi-happy conclusion might be in, or on, order?

if the university is taking the stand they can no longer guarantee the students safety, then I would have hoped he would have given them the opportunity to withdraw on their own and hopefully make a public apology.

I think expelling them does little to defuse their personal situation and actually makes rectifying the situation worse.

They could easily argue that the tension around the situation -- they had a police car parked at the SAE house yesterday -- put more people at risk than just the two guys they expelled.

As bad as it was I don't know If I can justify expelling just two. its either all or no one.

This should be required viewing in the basement of that Hateful Frat House.
No . . . not Required . . . simply acceptable and winsome.
8C9K3LEpm0k

Very interesting legal side to this. As bad as it was, it was just words. Makes you wonder if OU takes action against Eric Striker. The video he put out was less than flattering.

They could easily argue that the tension around the situation -- they had a police car parked at the SAE house yesterday -- put more people at risk than just the two guys they expelled.

I'm not disagreeing with that. Going forward you still have at least two young adults that have basically taken the fall for a much bigger issue (that they were directly a part of). They could have been given the opportunity to withdraw and then seek to continue their college educations somewhere else. The expulsion will create a record that will not be easy to overcome when applying for enrollment elsewhere. I know many here will not be sympathetic to that. But its a reality and I don't think anyone here thinks we were really dealing with card carrying, hood wearing Klansmen. We are dealing with kids right out of high school who were obviously taught a song by upperclassmen they are going to want to impress and fit in with. I'm not coddling them, I just think justice can be served with more rational options. Sure, those options won't give some people the warm feeling of mob justice, but that's just me.

I doubt the correct legal answer has Boren losing any sleep. Having litigated against the University in the past, their staff attorneys do an excellent job and more than know their way around a federal courthouse.

Bingo. They have a pretty sizable general counsel and I'm sure they went through this with a fine toothed comb. DBo ain't playin here.

The language in that letter of creating a "hostile learning environment" seems broad but probably more than covers getting rid of these students. Not a lawyer but did stay at a Holiday Inn.

And who actually thinks these students are going to lawyer up and fight this? In all likelihood they were probably already getting their transfer paperwork in order.

The University of Oklahoma (apparently) needs to be shut down and rebuilt from the bottom up. (gggggz)
(mostly on account of some FratDudes with apparent permission.)

Very interesting legal side to this. As bad as it was, it was just words. Makes you wonder if OU takes action against Eric Striker. The video he put out was less than flattering.

Totally different. Eric Striker's anger was against racism and completely understandable. Besides his apology was legit. The SAE video advocated lynching and hanging black people.

Again, it's interesting that there's so much focus here on these white SAE students and their fate and almost no discussion of what it's like to be a person of color on OU's campus. Kicking these guys off campus is just an immediate reaction. How is OU going to address the larger issues? Everyone is fooling themselves if they think this is an isolated incident. The problems go deeper. We need to worry less about OU's image and more about the actual problem. Oklahoma is a place where a legislator like Kern can rant stereotypes about black people without public outcry or even a challenger in the next election. Again, there are bigger issues here..,

Bingo. They have a pretty sizable general counsel and I'm sure they went through this with a fine toothed comb. DBo ain't playin here.

The language in that letter of creating a "hostile learning environment" seems broad but probably more than covers getting rid of these students. Not a lawyer but did stay at a Holiday Inn.

And who actually thinks these students are going to lawyer up and fight this? In all likelihood they were probably already getting their transfer paperwork in order.

Pretty sure some of the words sung by the students can be described as threatening in nature.

I'm not disagreeing with that. Going forward you still have at least two young adults that have basically taken the fall for a much bigger issue (that they were directly a part of). They could have been given the opportunity to withdraw and then seek to continue their college educations somewhere else. The expulsion will create a record that will not be easy to overcome when applying for enrollment elsewhere. I know many here will not be sympathetic to that. But its a reality and I don't think anyone here thinks we were really dealing with card carrying, hood wearing Klansmen. We are dealing with kids right out of high school who were obviously taught a song by upperclassmen they are going to want to impress and fit in with. I'm not coddling them, I just think justice can be served with more rational options. Sure, those options won't give some people the warm feeling of mob justice, but that's just me.

The punishment is completely fair. These guys likely have the type of networks that they'll have opportunities that many people of color never have in life. The main guy attended an elite Dallas private school and has likely been privileged his entire life.

And, yes, there is no doubt this kid is racist. I guess you have a stereotype of racists as actually wearing Klan garb and carrying out lynchings. You have to be racist to do, much less lead, that chant in public. That chant would never come out of my mouth or so many people I know. There's no way around that. Does that mean he could grow? It's possible. But there'so no question this kid is racist. That doesn't mean every aspect of who he is is bad. We're all complex. Everyone stereotypes groups. The racism of many people is indirect. If you define racism as holding negative stereotypes then almost everyone is racist or bigoted in some way. It takes humility to admit that and work against it. However, there is no reasonable definition of racism in which this kid does not fit.

Last point, these kids did not "take the fal." For others. They were THE leaders. It's not like the video was of two kids kind of mouthing the words. The dude was pumping his fists and trying to bring everyone into his chant. Did they learn the chant from someone else? Probably. But everything indicates they made a conscious decision to do sing this song on their own.

Bingo. The confederate flag is a symbol of racism no matter what "facts" you want to use.
Well, if you're gonna put it like that then only 4.6% of the world sees the US flag as a sign of freedom. I'm betting at least 70% of the rest of the world sees it as an oppressor. Ideaology at its finest.

Totally different. Eric Striker's anger was against racism and completely understandable. Besides his apology was legit. The SAE video advocated lynching and hanging black people.

Again, it's interesting that there's so much focus here on these white SAE students and their fate and almost no discussion of what it's like to be a person of color on OU's campus. Kicking these guys off campus is just an immediate reaction. How is OU going to address the larger issues? Everyone is fooling themselves if they think this is an isolated incident. The problems go deeper. We need to worry less about OU's image and more about the actual problem. Oklahoma is a place where a legislator like Kern can rant stereotypes about black people without public outcry or even a challenger in the next election. Again, there are bigger issues here..,

Interesting how these white adult teenagers get so much more sympathy on this board than a black kids walking home with skittles in the rain or sitting on a park bench with a BB gun.

The university owes no allegiance to these students over the school itself. They damaged the goodwill and national reputation of OU, just as if they took a sledge hammer to windows around campus. You have to expect the leadership of OU would do what it has to to try to repair this, including using its full authority to punish the perpetrators to the extent they can. OU has to show it takes this very seriously to restore its name. If a court were to overturn the decision, OU can at least say they did what they felt was called for, and no less.

Interesting how these white adult teenagers get so much more sympathy on this board than a black kids walking home with skittles in the rain or sitting on a park bench with a BB gun.

I haven't seen much in a way of sympathy here (in fact, this thread is overwhelmingly condemning of these boys). Those are some might tiny lines you're trying hard to read between...