Let me ask a simple question that should clear things up.

Did anyone know this chant was passed onto local chapters during a cruise 4 years ago BEFORE the Boren press conference?

Yes, four years before at a fraternity leadership meeting. It was then passed down for years to more than one local frat. SAE also leads the nation in dead members and is almost uninsurable, and that was BEFORE this incident.

The organization that is useful, that needs to be saved, is the college. Frats serve little purpose in the real world. Binge drinking and secret handshakes dressed in t-shirt philanthropy isn't really helping the world. Toss in the little fact that frat members are three times more likely to rape than non-frat college students and the need for frats is right about zero. So when one becomes a cancer to the parent college(s), it has to go.

I was president of my fraternity at OU and heavily involved with the Interfraternity Council and even went to several SAE parties, as I had friends over there. I lived in the house for three years and they were two doors down from us. I was also on our almuni board for 8 years.

Until this all came out, I had zero association with SAE and racism and didn't even know they were founded in Alabama.

The idea the entire fraternity somehow has racism at its core is ridiculous.


If my old house had been the one filmed on those videos I would have been horrified. But I'd take tremendous offense if others then tried to color me and the people I was in the house with back then as racists or part of something fundamentally racist.

It's entirely possible to condemn that song and those that have kept it going and spread it around, without vilifying every SAE since the dawn of time.

I'm sure there have been some great people in SAE who aren't "pricks" on "high horses" or who don't sing racist songs, maybe even most of them.

Let me ask a simple question that should clear things up.

Did anyone know this chant was passed onto local chapters during a cruise 4 years ago BEFORE the Boren press conference?

Yes, again I said that was part of what I couldn't disclose over the last few weeks and when I get more than two minutes in front of a computer this weekend, I can give more detail on it.

To expand that a bit in a different direction...How did it get to the cruise? Who brought it? Where did they get it?

Yes...Again, I will explain this when I have time to do so.

Yes, four years before at a fraternity leadership meeting. It was then passed down for years to more than one local frat. SAE also leads the nation in dead members and is almost uninsurable, and that was BEFORE this incident.

The organization that is useful, that needs to be saved, is the college. Frats serve little purpose in the real world. Binge drinking and secret handshakes dressed in t-shirt philanthropy isn't really helping the world. Toss in the little fact that frat members are three times more likely to rape than non-frat college students and the need for frats is right about zero. So when one becomes a cancer to the parent college(s), it has to go.

You are so off base that it's unbelieveable. I really hope you show up at the next OKCTalk get together. Would be interesting to know if you are this dense outside of an anonymous message board.

Swake seems to have some unresolved issues from his undergraduate days. I can't understand this unjustifiable animus towards the fraternal system. The rape statistics are just statistics and there are a great number of reasons why those stats are both unreliable and lack context. Further, the proposal of simply shutting down the fraternity system entirely is unconstitutional where public schools are concerned. You can't violate our constitutional right of free association.

Schools have to choose whether they are going to hold us at an arm's length or whether they want to draw us closer in. If they choose not to recognize us as campus organizations, which is within their power, they have no control of the potential animal houses within walking distance of campus.

The best alternative is to draw the Greek organizations closer in. Greek villages and dry housing have made positive impacts. Social fraternities offer great experiences for their members, benefit the community at large and are here to stay regardless of the angsty rants of former self-admitted GDIs.

Social fraternities offer great experiences for their members, benefit the community at large and are here to stay regardless of the angsty rants of former self-admitted GDIs.A bit more than 60 years ago, I was one of those GDIs, but in the year after I graduated, I learned there was no need for angst about the Greek way of life. I became close friends with a fellow ROTC Second Looie at Fort Sill while undergoing my troop duty; I hadn't known him at all when we were at OU. However both being Sooners and living in adjacent rooms at the BOQ tossed us together and formed an instant bond. He was a fraternity alum, though I no longer remember the name of his organization. It was, Jonesy admitted rather ruefully, somewhat of an "Animal House" and had been suspended at least once for excessive use of alcohol. However he invited me to accompany him to their Christmas Party in 1952, and it was one of the most entertaining parties I can recall -- wound up with me pounding the piano and Jonesy blowing his trumpet while the rest of his brothers and their dates gathered around and sang along to "When the Saints go Marching In" and "Beer Barrel Polka" (but nothing bawdy or in any way racist).

So not all GDIs are quite as down-putting as those who triggered your comment, Mid. Some of us grew up eventually.

Hah, I had to google GDI to find out I fall into the definition. People are really that focused on not being associated with frats that there's terminology for it?

How silly. Define yourself based on who you are, not who you aren't.

Hah, I had to google GDI to find out I fall into the definition. People are really that focused on not being associated with frats that there's terminology for it?

How silly. Define yourself based on who you are, not who you aren't.

Greeks are the ones who invented the acronym to put down non Greek students.

Greeks are the ones who invented the acronym to put down non Greek students.

It meant one thing back in the 60s and 70s. The meaning has really shifted to being referential to folks who are butthurt that the Greek system continues to be "allowed" to exist.

Eh, its kind of ironic becauses its somewhat like the n word. Invented as a term of disrespect, now non Greek students use it jokingly but Greeks still use it as an insult. I was on both sides and I know Greeks use it as a put down.

Another preferred insult from Greeks to non Greeks is "a random". Greeks and non Greeks are almost entirely segregated, other than classes or clubs. Socially they almost never mix or hang out.

Also, there are plenty of insults non Greeks throw at Greeks. I know its a 2 way street.

I'm not sure what the point is that you're driving at here.

Mainly that the Greek system drives segragation culturally & racially.

2) It is also fun to be a self-righteous prick, to pretend to be a better person than you actually are. It's fun to look down on other people in judgment.


I just think this needed posted again. Something about some of the last few posts made me think of it, for some unidentifiable reason.

For some unidentifiable reason, "random" and the origins of "GDI" in the Greek lexicon remind me of this. Along with singing racist songs on a bus.

Mainly that the Greek system drives segragation culturally & racially.

I'm a founding member of my chapter at UCO. My chapter is very diverse from both a racial and socioeconomic standpoint. This is becoming less and less true. Except for in the South, fraternities tend to be very diverse.

It meant one thing back in the 60s and 70s. The meaning has really shifted to being referential to folks who are butthurt that the Greek system continues to be "allowed" to exist.


I'm a founding member of my chapter at UCO. My chapter is very diverse from both a racial and socioeconomic standpoint. This is becoming less and less true. Except for in the South, fraternities tend to be very diverse.

Can and does happen in the south as well: How we made SAE the most diverse frat in our Texas school?s history - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/03/19/how-we-made-sae-the-most-diverse-frat-in-our-texas-schools-history/)

Let me ask a simple question that should clear things up.

Did anyone know this chant was passed onto local chapters during a cruise 4 years ago BEFORE the Boren press conference?
Yes, again I said that was part of what I couldn't disclose over the last few weeks and when I get more than two minutes in front of a computer this weekend, I can give more detail on it.

Doh!


As soon as SAE's national office became aware of this, they suspended the chapter's charter.
...
It's hard to root out 150+ years of institutionalized racism, but progress is quickly being made.


I believe SAE's action (the national org) in pulling the charter was appropriate. I believe OU's action in shutting down the frat was appropriate. Both of these actions targeted the source of the problem.
Agree. It targeted the problem directly.



A song on a bus seems stupid, and racist, but pretty low on the scale and effect.


I'm not sure the culture at SAE is at issue any more.



With all due respect, you have only seen this situation as it has been portrayed by the media and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
The SAE incident pretty much requires a culture of racism. My concern is whether we will make real progress on this issue, but if people keep pretending this was just an isolated mistake and not part of a larger cultural problem than nothing has been learned.



I don't know how much time you've spent with people in this particular age group, but no, you don't have enough facts to really know what you're talking about here.
...
You're making a lot of assumptions here because you are not culturally competent with this particular demographic.


However, I have the benefit of being able to base my opinion on knowing people that were involved at multiple grade levels in the fraternity as well as generations of some of their families and having inside knowledge of the situation. You have two 10 second video clips and two weeks of media coverage. If that's all you have to go on, I'm pretty comfortable with where I stand in my opinion on this.


I started off defending the fact that there isn't a tradition or culture of racism in the house or the national fraternity with examples that I cited above because a tradition or culture of racism implies something that has been around for awhile...which would include the time that I was active there. I then got sucked into the pissing match that this thread has become.
...
While I would love to throw all the freshmen who participated or even the rest of the current membership under the bus (see what I did there?) for this to salvage the chapter at OU, I can't because I know several of them or at least their families and know they were brought up to know that what they did was wrong and that they are not, nor are their families, racist.


First off, I very highly doubt the university knows more about this situation or will ever know as much about it as the people I've discussed it with. They always could but after seeing how their judicial committee and their investigations work for 5 years, I certainly have my doubts about their abilities.


The national fraternity even went as far as sending Boren a letter that condemned the student's actions, reaffirmed their suspension of the chapter, and confirmed that they were investigating as well, but also supported the fact that OU SAE has been one of it's strongest chapters throughout the fraternity's history and that it shouldn't be forever band from the campus because of one bus load of kids or 3-4 years of poor management/judgment or whatever you want to call it.

the origins of "GDI" in the Greek lexicon remind me of this.Well, back in the 1948-52 years when I was a "Gamma Delta Iota" at OU, the name was thought to be invented by a few independents, and we bore it proudly. It may subsequently have been hijacked by some of the more elitist Greeks, but it certainly didn't begin that way...

The Oklahoma Daily featured a cartoon, too, in which members of "I Felta Thi" often appeared...

Well, back in the 1948-52 years when I was a "Gamma Delta Iota" at OU, the name was thought to be invented by a few independents, and we bore it proudly. It may subsequently have been hijacked by some of the more elitist Greeks, but it certainly didn't begin that way...

The Oklahoma Daily featured a cartoon, too, in which members of "I Felta Thi" often appeared...

IFT and SOT were high school frats back in my day. There's no doubt in my mind those who managed to make it to the next level pledged to another hard partying org.

Doh!

Hows the view from up there?

now are you trying to say that I lied about what I knew before Boren said it because I said I couldn't disclose certain information until it was made public? It also appears that you are trying to say I lied about everything posted in my comments that you quoted.

Greeks are the ones who invented the acronym to put down non Greek students.

Which is nearly 100% irrelevant IMO since it's original use in this thread was by a non-greek to describe himself. From my perspective, it's not something the greek folks posting have been throwing around.

I can't say I remember hearing it during my time up at OSU, probably says something about the crowd one runs with.

Which is nearly 100% irrelevant IMO since it's original use in this thread was by a non-greek to describe himself. From my perspective, it's not something the greek folks posting have been throwing around.

I can't say I remember hearing it during my time up at OSU, probably says something about the crowd one runs with.

Its because Greeks are the main ones to use it. It is relevant. I thinkn swake used it in a ironic way, not because that's how he "identified" himself.

I didn't rush as a freshman and had never even heard the term gdi. I rushed my sophmore year and then I heard it non stop. It is no doubt WAY more of a derogitive term then it is actual "gdis" use.

ITT: People with axes to grind get to grind their axes.

Its because Greeks are the main ones to use it. It is relevant. I thinkn swake used it in a ironic way, not because that's how he "identified" himself.

I didn't rush as a freshman and had never even heard the term gdi. I rushed my sophmore year and then I heard it non stop. It is no doubt WAY more of a derogitive term then it is actual "gdis" use.

Ive heard it used both in a derogotive way from people on both sides and many of my friends that were not in the Greek system used it to describe themselves when asked if they were in a fraternity. It's use and intent are not black and white.

Its because Greeks are the main ones to use it. It is relevant. I thinkn swake used it in a ironic way, not because that's how he "identified" himself.

I didn't rush as a freshman and had never even heard the term gdi. I rushed my sophmore year and then I heard it non stop. It is no doubt WAY more of a derogitive term then it is actual "gdis" use.

Greeks are the main ones to use it, except here where it was never mentioned until a non-greek did. Pardon my doubt when this thread is my sole experience with the term.

It meant one thing back in the 60s and 70s. The meaning has really shifted to being referential to folks who are butthurt that the Greek system continues to be "allowed" to exist.

No, I'm a bit older than you, no, it was not meant that way at all. Most of my friends were in frats, I spent many, many weekends at Frat parties. I probably spent every single weekend in college at a frat or with frat buddies. I just wasn't a member. I didn't go to KU until I was a sophomore and didn't want to get hazed by my buddies. It's that simple, no angst, no anger. My dad was in a frat, my grandfather, my uncle, all in frats. My wife was in a sorority and my daughter is now. I was no granola chewing angry GDI. I know exactly what they are all about. Kansas is far enough north that it was no big deal to be or to not be in a house, unlike some schools around here. Frats are drinking clubs with a veneer of community organizations. When one goes bad, get rid of it, who cares.

I think you have too much of your self worth tied up into your college social life. Time to let go.

Time to stop all the personal barbs and attacks.

If you can't discuss this or other topics without focusing on posters instead of the topic itself, expect a vacation from the site.

Bite me. I was a GDI, but I had many friends in many different houses. My wife is active in her alumni group for her sorority and my daughter is currently in a sorority. SAE was known as the racist frat at KU when I was in college 25 years ago and my wife says the same thing about them at OSU back then. It's the old south frat. Always has been.

Everywhere across the country, their formal is called "Plantation Ball." I never understood how it was allowed...but we just assumed they weren't serious about all that. Guess that was a wrong assumption.

By the way, it's worth noting that racial and ethnic diversity is one thing for a fraternity to accept...sexual orientation is another issue. It's pretty true that you can basically classify every house based on its level of acceptance for diversity, broadly defined. The "classification" on each campus would look roughly the same as if you had used any other factor, like grades, campus involvement, etc.

Hows the view from up there?

now are you trying to say that I lied about what I knew before Boren said it because I said I couldn't disclose certain information until it was made public? It also appears that you are trying to say I lied about everything posted in my comments that you quoted.

I am suggesting that you tried to paint picture you knew wasn't true, both actively and passively.

Let's take the first quoted responses from Jerrywall, traxx, Midtowner, and Pete - who I assume didn't posses the knowledge you did but for some reason you didn't see it fit to correct them.


Midtowner - As soon as SAE's national office became aware of this, they suspended the chapter's charter.
...
It's hard to root out 150+ years of institutionalized racism, but progress is quickly being made.

Not only was the national office aware of it the whole time, they came up with, sanctioned, and disseminated the chant 4 years ago. As for progress being made - this was actually regression if you are correct that SAE wasn't like this 10 years ago.


jerrywall - I believe SAE's action (the national org) in pulling the charter was appropriate. I believe OU's action in shutting down the frat was appropriate. Both of these actions targeted the source of the problem.

They didn't target the source of the problem because the source was the SAE national leadership itself - who by all accounts, threw the OU chapter and it's members under the bus.


traxx - Agree. It targeted the problem directly.

Nope. Once again the national leadership tried to cover-up their involvement by pinning the whole thing on some freshman.


I'm not sure the culture at SAE is at issue any more.

The culture at SAE is the only issue.

At any time you could have corrected these comments based on the knowledge that you alone possessed, and you didn't have to reveal anything of detail; you could have simply said hey guys, this is more than just a youtube video so wait for the investigation to conclude before making your mind up because there is some stuff that isn't in the public realm yet.

JTF, you've never been to a national fraternity convention, so let me just fill you in a bit. Lots goes on at those things which is not sanctioned by HQ. Remove from your mind the idea that if something happens at a national convention that HQ must have sanctioned it or had at least something to do with it. Definitely not the case. Much of these conventions is opportunity for socializing, going to bars, drinking in your hotel rooms, with brothers from all over the U.S. and Canada. And yes... sometimes songs or chants not appearing in the official pledge manual tend to be disseminated.

Lots goes on at those things which is not sanctioned by HQ..... Much of these .... ....... is opportunity for socializing, going to bars, drinking.... ......., with brothers...... ....... And yes... sometimes songs or chants not appearing in the official pledge manual tend to be disseminated.

So basically like every other day at the frat, just not in the actual house.

Bros are gonna Bro

Without Uni's and the partiers we might not have one of the funniest subjects on texts from last night. The Walk Of Shame.

So .i. like...frat...s...Bro

That's fun!

JTF, you've never been to a national fraternity convention, so let me just fill you in a bit. Lots goes on at those things which is not sanctioned by HQ. Remove from your mind the idea that if something happens at a national convention that HQ must have sanctioned it or had at least something to do with it. Definitely not the case. Much of these conventions is opportunity for socializing, going to bars, drinking in your hotel rooms, with brothers from all over the U.S. and Canada. And yes... sometimes songs or chants not appearing in the official pledge manual tend to be disseminated.

Thank you for clarifying. It's not like the National President was out there teaching everyone this chant.

It hasn't been officially reported how or who led the teaching of the song at the national level, where the song itself came from originally or who else was present.

That's beyond OU's scope or interest, they traced it back to a national event completely unrelated to OU except for those from OU who attended.

Do you think SAE is going to get the bottom of it and tell the world truthfully or try to spin it? When is that going to happen?

JTF, you've never been to a national fraternity convention, so let me just fill you in a bit. Lots goes on at those things which is not sanctioned by HQ. Remove from your mind the idea that if something happens at a national convention that HQ must have sanctioned it or had at least something to do with it. Definitely not the case. Much of these conventions is opportunity for socializing, going to bars, drinking in your hotel rooms, with brothers from all over the U.S. and Canada. And yes... sometimes songs or chants not appearing in the official pledge manual tend to be disseminated.

I went to my fraternity's national convention in Indianapolis when I was in college.

There were lots of seminars and break-out sessions but tons of after-hours partying and socializing as well. It's basically a convention for frat boys, so you can imagine.

I'm sure in the case of the SAE's they were drinking and shared some of their dirty songs. I'm also very sure no one involved with the fraternity's national organization was around when that happened.

We certainly got up to all sorts of trouble in Indy; I remember somehow we got a lot of girls from Butler University to meet us at the hotel. I can only imagine what would happen on a cruise ship.

Thank you for clarifying. It's not like the National President was out there teaching everyone this chant.

Right, but it also sounds like there wasn't much time spent taking racism, sexism, etc. seriously. It's the responsibility of the national organization to set a culture at a national conference. If the culture did nothing to address such issues then there was a void of leadership by the fraternity to proactively mold better men (a stated goal of most fraternities), right? It's not like racist actions, rape culture, slut-shaming, and homophobia haven't been long term problems at a lot of fraternities. And SAE is certainly not the only fraternity that fails on many of these issues.

Right, but it also sounds like there wasn't much time spent taking racism, sexism, etc. seriously. It's the responsibility of the national organization to set a culture at a national conference. If the culture did nothing to address such issues then there was a void of leadership by the fraternity to proactively mold better men (a stated goal of most fraternities), right? It's not like racist actions, rape culture, slut-shaming, and homophobia haven't been long term problems at a lot of fraternities. And SAE is certainly not the only fraternity that fails on many of these issues.

There may have been time spent speaking about it, but it doesn't mean that the people attending were paying attention to it.

You are right that these sorts of things have been problems at fraternities over the years. Some fraternities have worse problems than others, and some members are more likely to cause those problems than others. There was clearly a failure somewhere along the line with SAE.

I suppose part of my problem with assigning blame in this whole event is that I remember what it was like to be in a fraternity. We had a few black members, and I don't remember any kind of racist chants at all. But we definitely had our share of morons, guys you barely trusted not to burn the house down. And the morons from one class tend to attract the morons from the next. So you aren't really that surprised when, at 3 am while falling down drunk, half a dozen guys decide to re-enact the "lighting the bag of poop on fire" scene from Billy Madison on the steps of Boyd House. Not that that event happened, but maybe some people might have thought something similar to it was a really good idea and had to be talked out of it. I'm not exactly sure how many people ran naked through different university buildings at night, but I know it was several.

Drunk guys encourage other drunk guys to do dumb things. These are usually not things that are discussed with the rest of the chapter. They tend to just happen. I remember several songs, many quite homophobic in nature, that appeared almost out of thin air. "Oh yeah, we heard it from the guys at East Popcorn State when we drove up there for the game last week" or "You should have been in Greg's room Tuesday morning at 4 am. He came up with a bunch of good songs."

It's difficult to tell who exactly is responsible in these situations. I don't want to be judged for what some dumbass did when I wasn't even there. It sounds like there might have been a lingering problem at SAE, but unless you were involved in the house, you don't know for sure. Obviously there were a few members who liked that song and decided to spread it, but a few is really all it takes.

Right, but it also sounds like there wasn't much time spent taking racism, sexism, etc. seriously. It's the responsibility of the national organization to set a culture at a national conference. If the culture did nothing to address such issues then there was a void of leadership by the fraternity to proactively mold better men (a stated goal of most fraternities), right? It's not like racist actions, rape culture, slut-shaming, and homophobia haven't been long term problems at a lot of fraternities. And SAE is certainly not the only fraternity that fails on many of these issues.

All of those topics are discussed at the leadership school and on multiple occasions during the school year at the local chapters and through IFC groups on most campuses. Hell we even had a Multicultural Chair that was completely devoted to increasing diversity and exposure to other cultures (Obviously this position went by the wayside over the last few years). Just because the national leadership takes a stand on those issues a) doesn't mean that the 2-10 students from the 239 chapters that attend leadership school will bring it back to their members, B) Doesn't mean every member (anywhere from 10 to 150+ people) of the 239 local chapters will listen if they do bring it back. c) Just because the IFC groups at most schools push discussions on those issues, doesn't mean everyone will listen.

As far as the "Rape Culture" and general violence against women go, that is a chapter by chapter and school by school issue. To say that is an issue for all fraternities everywhere or even most of them, is wrong. That is definitely not something that we tolerated. I can't remember running across any issues related to those problems when I was in the house, but it was pretty well understood that if you committed such a crime, you would be expelled. When we had pledges that even committed minor disrespectful acts toward women, they were punished or blacked (aka kicked out). I feel that was a stance that most fraternities at OU took, but I obviously can't speak for others. I never felt that their was a rape culture among fraternities at OU and my female friends (whether in sororities or not) didn't either, but those crimes often go unreported so it's difficult to say what truly went on.

On homophobia and slut-shaming, those are no doubt issues in fraternities but that extends far, far beyond the fraternity level. Those issues are taken seriously at the national level but again...you can lead a horse to water...

If only there was some sort of process Fraternities could follow, where they could get to know potential new members, and those new brothers could learn about fraternity rules and traditions, and get some serious education on what's appropriate and what's not, and the existing members could work on weeding out those incoming members who would exemplify the worst traits, the habits they don't want brought into their houses...

Oh yeah, it's been decided that pledging was bad.

I went to my fraternity's national convention in Indianapolis when I was in college.

There were lots of seminars and break-out sessions but tons of after-hours partying and socializing as well. It's basically a convention for frat boys, so you can imagine.

I'm sure in the case of the SAE's they were drinking and shared some of their dirty songs. I'm also very sure no one involved with the fraternity's national organization was around when that happened.

We certainly got up to all sorts of trouble in Indy; I remember somehow we got a lot of girls from Butler University to meet us at the hotel. I can only imagine what would happen on a cruise ship.

This is very accurate. I never attended our leadership school cruise, but obviously know many members who did and the basement type songs weren't ever taught at sanctioned events or even when national representatives were present. They pack the schedule pretty tight but you still have plenty of downtime to hangout with members of other chapters, including shore excursions when they have an opportunity to get off the ship and hang out in the ports of call for 8 hours or so.

Even David Boren, the harshest critic of everyone throughout this process, said that he didn't believe this was something that came from the national level representatives, explained how conventions like the leadership school work, and said that he had heard it was passed from chapter to chapter in an informal gathering.

Sad that even though not sanctioned and taught by national leadership. that these young men and others felt comfortable sharing such a song and teaching it. what does that say of the enviroment and people attending? and then, those who learned it were comfortable enough to continue to share and sing it.

Sad that even though not sanctioned and taught by national leadership. that these young men and others felt comfortable sharing such a song and teaching it. what does that say of the enviroment and people attending? and then, those who learned it were comfortable enough to continue to share and sing it.

It says that when you have a gathering of 800+ 18-24 year olds from 239 chapters or colonies throughout the US, you inevitably get some bad apples/idiots. It also likely again displays the amazing ability of alcohol to make those bad apples/idiots feel a lot more comfortable than they should be when sharing things.

SAE national president criticizes Boren in Facebook post
OUDaily.com


OU president David Boren released a statement via his spokesperson Corbin Wallace regarding SAE national president Brad Cohen's Facebook post criticizing Boren's statements made last Friday.

"Instead of trying to split hairs, it is my hope that he will deal seriously with this moral issue," Boren said in an email statement.

This story was updated on Monday March 30 at 6:22p.m.

Cohen posted a Facebook status criticizing comments made about national organization by OU President David Boren during a press conference Friday.

In the post, Cohen noted that there is a difference between formally learning a racist chant and hearing and repeating such a chant. He called Boren's statements during the press conference "inflammatory and self serving."

Read the full text of Cohen's Facebook post, which has since been deleted, here:

I’m amazed that a University President such as Boren of OU does not know the difference between “learned” and “heard.”

If he truly believes these biggots [sic] at our former chapter at his University “learned” or were taught that vile song as part of the curriculum at one of the greatest learning experiences for young college men, the Mosely Leadership School, vs heard it from a handful of equally bigoted idiots outside of the extensive leadership curriculum, then he should not hold the position that he does as President of a major University.

His statements were inflammatory and self serving. At the end of the day, it was his students that chose to hear a vile chant, take it back to their university and make it part of their culture in their chapter.

Disgusting, one sided and biased and I’m done being silent.

After spending the weekend with a retired Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a retired Army General, the Director for the U.S. patent office and a retired President of Marriott International, most of whom attended the Mosely Leadership School as undergraduates and all learned valuable lessons from it as have tens of thousands of members over its 80 year history, I’m more convinced than ever that SAE builds character, it leads based on its strong values and principles of the True Gentlemen and has an amazing membership that has gone on to contribute enormously to society.

Like any organization, government, university or business, bad apples exist. How you deal with those bad apples is what counts.

We showed clearly and a lot faster than Oklahoma University did, we mean what we say, by closing the chapter within hours of seeing the disgusting video and bringing charges against all members for expulsion.

SAE is not the largest and one of the oldest Fraternities because it’s a racist organization. It is because of its values and its ability to change and adapt over the past 159 years.

A racist organization doesn’t elect a Jewish immigrant from South Africa as its national President. I’m proud to lead it, I’m proud of of our members and I’m proud of the many bold and proactive changes we’ve made in the past year. As our executive director has clearly stated, if any chapter uses this vile chant, they too will be dealt with harshly and swiftly.

Sounds like OU was a terrible fit for the org. Good that SAE chose to move on.

Not a good response by the head of SAE head in my opinion. Takes little responsibility, and thus seems to show little remorse. Bragging about shutting down the chapter first seems especially immature. I'm not saying he can't respond to Boren, but it should be in a totally different tone. He acts like SAE's members are just total aberrations (even though it seems clear members from multiple houses participated in learning/teaching the song) and the fraternity has no problems besides a few bad apples (not sure that's true for any fraternity).

Hey look, another frat boy prick is what came to my mind first. Then I tried to dial it back a notch...

The only thing that's clear to me is that some people with obvious grudges on their shoulders are taking the chance to interpret, leap to conclusions, and attack. Its amazing, the only groups you can get away with defining by the small minorities. White men, Christians, and Fraternities.

I went to OSU and while I never joined, I spent enough time to see there were good folks and bad folks, and if anything it seemed like less bad in Greek life than not on campus.

Not a good response by the head of SAE head in my opinion. Takes little responsibility, and thus seems to show little remorse. Bragging about shutting down the chapter first seems especially immature. I'm not saying he can't respond to Boren, but it should be in a totally different tone. He acts like SAE's members are just total aberrations (even though it seems clear members from multiple houses participated in learning/teaching the song) and the fraternity has no problems besides a few bad apples (not sure that's true for any fraternity).

Yeah, seemed pretty immature and not very well thought through.

He's since deleted the post from his Facebook account.

Perfect example of why PR needs to be filtered through PR people.

Perfect example of why PR needs to be filtered through PR people.

Or just step away from the keyboard for a bit and read it again... Something I shoukd do on here more often. ;)

Yeah, seemed pretty immature and not very well thought through.

He's since deleted the post from his Facebook account.

I agree, that wasn't very professional at all.

This is SAE nationals' press release from Friday afternoon after Boren's press conference. Not really sure why Cohen felt the need to add to it today...

News - Media Statements - March 27 Response - Sigma Alpha Epsilon (http://www.sae.net/response)


Fraternity Confirms Chant was Shared at Past Leadership Meeting
EVANSTON, IL – The Sigma Alpha Epsilon Fraternity (SAE) on Friday confirmed members of its former University of Oklahoma chapter likely learned a racist chant while attending a national Leadership School about four years ago.
However, Executive Director Blaine Ayers said the organization has no current evidence that the chant is widespread across the fraternity’s 237 groups. Ayers said SAE continues its in-depth investigation of its chapters.
“We remain committed to identifying and rooting out racist behavior from SAE, and we are actively investigating all of our local organizations to determine whether there are issues in any other location,” Ayers said. “We intend to conduct a thorough and complete investigation, and this will take time. However, we will share the results of our investigation when it is complete. Our current findings at the University of Oklahoma are similar to those announced on Friday by University of Oklahoma President David Boren. But our investigation to date shows no evidence the song was widely shared across the broader organization.”
Ayers said he contacted Boren on Friday to acknowledge the university’s investigation and to assure Boren that Sigma Alpha Epsilon is continuing its own investigation.
SAE invites hundreds of leaders annually to a six-day leadership retreat, where participants attend classes, seminars and other educational functions throughout the day and evening. While attendees have little social time, there are occasions when participants can gather socially.
Ayers said it is likely that during one of these social gatherings, some members shared the racist song that was recorded on video at the University of Oklahoma and shared through social media earlier this month.
SAE closed its Oklahoma Kappa chapter immediately after seeing the video and subsequently announced a four-point initiative – including an anonymous hotline, mandatory online sensitivity training, the hiring of a diversity-and-inclusion officer and the appointment of a national advisory panel on diversity and inclusion – to eradicate racism and other forms of discrimination from the fraternity.
“The song is horrific and does not at all reflect our values as an organization,” said Ayers. “If we find any other examples of this kind of behavior currently occurring, we will hold our members accountable, just as we’ve done in Oklahoma.”
About SAE
Sigma Alpha Epsilon, founded in 1856, is one of the nation’s largest national social fraternities, with 237 chapters and colonies and approximately 15,000 collegiate members and 200,000 living alumni. Our creed is known as “The True Gentleman,” and our mission is to promote the highest standards of friendship, scholarship and service for our members based upon the ideals set forth by our Founding Fathers and enunciated in our creed.

Not a good response by the head of SAE head in my opinion. Takes little responsibility, and thus seems to show little remorse. Bragging about shutting down the chapter first seems especially immature. I'm not saying he can't respond to Boren, but it should be in a totally different tone. He acts like SAE's members are just total aberrations (even though it seems clear members from multiple houses participated in learning/teaching the song) and the fraternity has no problems besides a few bad apples (not sure that's true for any fraternity).

While I agree that it was unprofessional, Boren basically grandstanded by saying he was kicking SAE off campus a full day after SAE Nationals pulled the charter and then expelled two students that had withdrawn the day before (language that he changed during his recent press conference after he realized expelling them opened him up for a potential lawsuit) all for PR purposes so it goes both ways.

I agree. The big difference is Boren's was smart PR as he sought to clearly disassociate the university from a racist act. You can certainly argue individuals should have been treated differently, but Boren put the institution first. The SAE guy's Facebook post was more bad PR that seemed to show a culture that accepted the status quo. Good PR vs bad PR. That's all I was really trying to commented on... I wasn't trying to rehash the entire situation.

I agree. The big difference is Boren's was smart PR as he sought to clearly disassociate the university from a racist act. You can certainly argue individuals should have been treated differently, but Boren put the institution first. The SAE guy's Facebook post was more bad PR that seemed to show a culture that accepted the status quo. Good PR vs bad PR. That's all I was really trying to commented on... I wasn't trying to rehash the entire situation.

No problem. I disagree that his message shows a culture that accepts the status quo as he pretty clearly states that they don't accept that kind of activity and that they distanced themselves from it as well. Though the main point he was trying to make was that it wasn't officially taught at the leadership school...which I found kind of odd because Boren clearly stated in the question and answer portion of the press conference that he believed that our chapter likely learned it through peer to peer contact from another chapter in a social setting during the leadership cruise and that he didn't think the national fraternity had anything to do with it...I think he even said that he didn't think it was necessarily a widespread issue in the fraternity but urged them to investigate to find out definitively. I actually had no problem with that part of the press conference and don't really understand why Cohen did...maybe he didn't watch it from start to finish?

Regardless, no doubt it was bad PR...the unprofessional tone alone made that the case.

Of course, none of this is being covered in any depth - if even at all - nationally. The national media has moved on, satisfied in the knowledge that they exposed OU and the state of Oklahoma as being chock full of racism, something they never doubted to begin with.

Of course, none of this is being covered in any depth - if even at all - nationally. The national media has moved on, satisfied in the knowledge that they exposed OU and the state of Oklahoma as being chock full of racism, something they never doubted to begin with.

The Justin Bieber roast was on last night. The twitter and facebook world has move on to that.

We ate at N D Foods the other night. Everything about it was wonderful. Especially getting to meet the 79 year old co-owner of the place. Later, I decided to do an online review of our experience. In doing so, I came across a review by an outraged individual who would never eat there again. Why? Because that same charming lady said what happened at OU was a travesty. Turns out she was referring to what she viewed as applying a sledgehammer to the Free Speech rights of those [idiot/a-hole] frat boyz. The reviewer was never going to set foot in the place again. Personally, I'm looking forward to our next visit. I had their Mufflata (sp?) last time. I think the next time I'll try their Reuben. The collateral damage from this deal is fairly amazing. Thank goodness public attention has moved on to Justin Beiber . . . =) ^^^

(Personally, I sort of feel like The Outrage Over The Insulting Former "Mascot" at . . . was it Capitol Hill High School? . . . faded far too soon. There are tempests and there are teapots, may the twain never meet.)