I have started to make a list of all the City projects that have gone very far over budget and well beyond stated timelines.

It's already a long list and predates the universal 'pandemic' and 'inflation' catch-all excuses.

The city frequently badly misses on projects and either makes huge value engineering compromises or moves money budgeted for other things. They also miss -- badly -- timelines, often by years.


I've been talking about this for at least 15 years. There needs to be reports against original budgets and timelines. They never do that and thus never learn. And we keep making the same mistakes over and over.

And these aren't little things; they are huge misses.


One current example: Union Station. Just asked David Todd about this a week ago and learned it's the same song: don't have enough money, value engineering, delays and more delays that just cost more money, will end up with a small fraction of what was proposed.

Also now happening with the Palomar MAPS 4 project (also delayed and over budget), and they can only build about 2/3rds of the Hefner Clubhouse, on and on.
Don’t forget about the county jail

Ignoring the realities of the last 4 years is wrong and, yes, they are and have been accepted in the real world because I see it in my own company. We recently dropped a major new site project due to huge construction cost overruns and availability of empty office space elsewhere. That is the current reality. The zoo project is construction of a unique structure of which there are no existing alternatives. Not spending $ and determining what is feasible was the right call.

Did they put out a press release a couple of months ago and then start work?

I seriously doubt we are talking about anything remotely comparable.

Did they put out a press release a couple of months ago and then start work?

I seriously doubt we are talking about anything remotely comparable.

They took down a structure that was also unique and wasn't part of the new project. As we have seen with some other structures around town, demolition takes a fraction of the time as the reconstruction.

edit: of most things. Demo of the Myriad is going to be huge.

They took down a structure that was also unique and wasn't part of the new project. As we have seen with some other structures around town, demolition takes a fraction of the time as the reconstruction.

edit: of most things. Demo of the Myriad is going to be huge.

Demolition was part of the project budget, part of the project work.

They started and spent money, now can't go forward.


If the state or federal government had done this people would be throwing a royal fit and politicians would be demanding accountability.

Demolition was part of the project budget, part of the project work.

They started and spent money, now can't go forward.


If the state or federal government had done this people would be throwing a royal fit and politicians would be demanding accountability.

Yes, demolition did start - of a mostly unused and possibly dilapidated structure. I'm sorry but site clearing happens frequently. As I've said, the director could\should have been more forthcoming about the rising construction costs but he can't be blamed for inflation, labor shortages, etc. The frequent reevaluations of cost also cost money.

Yes, demolition did start - of a mostly unused and possibly dilapidated structure. I'm sorry but site clearing happens frequently. As I've said, the director could\should have been more forthcoming about the rising construction costs but he can't be blamed for inflation, labor shortages, etc. The frequent reevaluations of cost also cost money.

Yeah, but the old arena in the aquaticus facility wasn't entirely horrible and could've continued to be used for sea lion shows until the issue was resolved. Now we're left with nothing.

but WAS it being used? (I don't know)

but WAS it being used? (I don't know)

Yes, the sea lions and seals were sent away to other zoos. They were assets to the zoo. It may not be large, but there is some level of impact on guest attendance.

lol none of this is accurate

you have a habit of telling people they are wrong without saying why, which adds very little to the conversation.

Can someone please explain to me like I'm 12 how something like this happens?

In my opinion, if I am bidding a job, I get three bids and I understand that they are cost plus or what the budget is. I would guess, the people placing the bids have their subs give them estimates and they build the bid based on the estimates. The bid comes to me and it is good through, whatever date...

What am I missing here?

Can someone please explain to me like I'm 12 how something like this happens?

In my opinion, if I am bidding a job, I get three bids and I understand that they are cost plus or what the budget is. I would guess, the people placing the bids have their subs give them estimates and they build the bid based on the estimates. The bid comes to me and it is good through, whatever date...

What am I missing here?

Depends on how they bid the projects. If it is a bond (I have some familiarity with this) then you have someone estimate the total cost of a project then bid it out to see who can come in under that. So if the original estimate is way off (post covid they have been pretty off) then the bids are all under that but can't build the building for that amount.

I dont think there is anything nefarious going on, construction is extremely hard to estimate properly even with padding. Then you have change orders come through from the ownership and that just adds up more and more. Also lots of unknowns once they get started. Sometimes the lot needs more work than they thought when they start digging. There are so many factors in construction that just add up. And if this is a government project they have to take the lowest bid and then you run into someone who underbid and tries to push change orders for everything to get their money back out of the project.

I don't think anything is nefarious, just horribly managed which raises much bigger concerns, especially since just in the last few months they paid for an elaborate Master Plan with associated budgets, which now has to be considered equally useless.

And a reminder, we only know about this because an email was leaked, not because anyone at the zoo has been forthcoming.

Also, we can probably forget about an aquarium at OKANA.


But hey, let's blame all this on inflation and just keep on keeping on.

Sounds as though the director, who seems competent at feeding the animals and displaying them, is way out of his element in planning, procuring and overseeing design and construction services. that's not one bit surprising given the unique and complex nature of the project. He bit off way more than he could chew. It should have been assigned to a seasoned pro with a verified successful history.

I'd also say Zoos all probably use the same design group since it is a very specialty field. That for sure ups the cost

Yeah, they contract with all types of planning, construction, and architecture firms.

However, the buck stops with the Executive Director who hires and manages these groups, provides final approvals, and is responsible for budgets and timelines.


I held a similar position, effectively the COO for a large, national wealth-managment firm in L.A. I ran Finance, facilities, IT, HR, Compliance and a few other things.

And when we missed our budget and completion date for a huge new offices in the middle of downtown San Franciso, I was held personally accountable despite the fact there were millions of variables and unanticipated issues. You make a contingency budget exactly for that purpose and nobody wanted to hear about permitting issues, supply constraints, material overruns, or anything else. These are part and partial of managing these types of projects. Inflation? "Why did you not budget this correctly when the numbers weren't even finalized until we started work?" That is a completely fair question and a lack of answer would shake the confidence of anyone up the chain of command.

By the time we built offices in Palo Alto, Seattle, and Beverly Hills -- all very difficult places to build -- I had the budget figured out with plenty of contingency factored in. And I also held the architects, interior designers, and contractors accountable along the way to make sure I didn't have any overruns. If I had low-balled the numbers to get approval, then hope they came down even though we have been experiencing big challenges in the construction industry, how do you think that would have been received?


What I'm saying is this reporting and learning process never seems to happen with City projects and we keep making *big* mistakes over and over. Not reporting against budget with associated line-item variances is completely crazy -- I've never seen this in the private sector.

Another classic example is Project 180 which ended up completing only about half of what was promised and taking years longer. That was way before the pandemic. There have been many others that I will list later. I've regarded this as a huge issue for at least a decade and I've made these same points on many threads over the years -- I'm not singling out the zoo.

BTW, waiting always makes things more expensive so how is that a responsible strategy?


Anyone with a job: Try submitting a project for approval, receiving a budget, then after getting everything approved, publish the plans to a broad audience including the press, then go back and tell your boss the project can't be done because you missed the budget by 93%.




but of course the way the city does things is .. you apporve prelim plans you apporve demolation ..

you then get a bid for demo .. it happens

you get a design contract with cost estimates ..

you then put those out for the actually bid .. and only then do the true numbers come in


perhaps they should be able to do all that at once but that is NOT the way the city is allowed to operate ..

this is not like building a simple warehouse .. there are hundreds of different things needed and all need to be bid on ..

Another thing: I talk to a lot of architects, engineers, and contractors who work on City projects.

They *all* raise the same point about very poor budgeting and how it only seems to be getting worse, not better.

I'm telling you, this is a problem because even though most of these projects get done, the budgeting gap is only closed in one of two ways, or often both: 1) we get much less than was promised; and/or 2) we take money from elsewhere which means other important projects get reduced, delayed, or scrapped altogether.

but of course the way the city does things is .. you apporve prelim plans you apporve demolation ..

you then get a bid for demo .. it happens

you get a design contract with cost estimates ..

you then put those out for the actually bid .. and only then do the true numbers come in


perhaps they should be able to do all that at once but that is NOT the way the city is allowed to operate ..

This is not the way it works.

They had plans drawn up and bid before they ever did the demolition. I published them here long before they started work. I saw the project on the bid list.


I will reiterate what I have often said: if this was consistently happening (huge misses) at the state and federal level, people would be howling. Yet, happens at the City all the time and all anyone wants to do is make excuses. It makes zero sense to me.

I'd be interested on who they hired or used to do the construction estimate.

I'd be interested on who they hired or used to do the construction estimate.

The email from Lawson said JE Dunn.

Jeez. Looks like the architecture firm and the CM way overdid it for what they could get for 27 million. Again comes back to not knowing the construction costs. JE Dunn should have had a better grasp on that.

Jeez. Looks like the architecture firm and the CM way overdid it for what they could get for 27 million. Again comes back to not knowing the construction costs. JE Dunn should have had a better grasp on that.

We aren't privy to what JE Dunn shared with the zoo.

The email says they initially used an estimator and they came in at $27MM and that's where they set their budget. Then they hired JE Dunn who got bids from subcontractors (this was a year ago) and that totaled $37MM.

They decided to proceed anyway, even though they were already $10 MM over budget and knowing full well what was going on with inflation and construction issues.

They then re-bid hoping to get that amount down -- based on what, who knows -- and then it was $52 MM.


They knew well over a year ago that they were already 40% over budget and hoped by re-bidding the amounts would come down, now act surprised after messing around with this prices only went up.

I don't think anything is nefarious, just horribly managed which raises much bigger concerns, especially since just in the last few months they paid for an elaborate Master Plan with associated budgets, which now has to be considered equally useless.
.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.

--my phrase of 2025.

Then they hired JE Dunn who got bids from subcontractors (this was a year ago) and that totaled $37MM.


this is not accurate at all

that numbers was the rough estimate by JE dunn

this is not accurate at all

that numbers was the rough estimate by JE dunn

I know you love to be a contrarian and argue just to argue, but this is directly from Lawson's email:


JE Dunn went out to obtain bids from a variety of subcontractors and came back with an estimated rough cost of $37M.

Rough or not, they did seek and receive bids and proceeded even though at that time they were already $10 MM over their approved budget.

Given the current climate, waiting to rebid in the hopes of costs coming down instead of going up was completely unrealistic, as proven by the recent $52 MM number.

From the Lost Ogle:


You’re telling me that in the post-pandemic landscape – a time where rising inflation, dysfunctional supply chains, global trade wars, and other economic factors made construction costs skyrocket – that Zoo officials were warned the project was coming in over budget, but they thought it would be okay because costs would go… down?

It should be noted the email stated they started the process back in March of 2021 and sounded like they engaged JE Dunn pretty quickly thereafter. In just about every industry, everyone knew that cost of good increased dramatically around that time. My Godson who was in high school knew about it and was talking to me about it. So, the head of the Zoo planning a sub-$30 million budget for a new project certainly should have known. How do you NOT go back to the architects and subs to check and make sure those costs are still similar three years later when you are going to start the process? That's the biggest mishap for me...

And I just realized everything I typed up Pete quoted from the Lost Ogle article...

BTW, the zoo had to pay to relocate the sea lions in 2022 so they could start demolition and they were supposed to bring them back in a couple of years.

The sea lion exhibit also generated revenue through twice daily shows as late as 2022. There was a pretty big stadium there.


So now, we have a big dirt lot and no feasible plan to build anything. And what happens to those sea lions that are now in limbo?

Wonder what the market is looking like for zoo directors these days. The Zoo trust should have been watching this closely and seen how flawed the process was and what was coming. They're culpable too.

Wonder what the market is looking like for zoo directors these days. The Zoo trust should have been watching this closely and seen how flawed the process was and what was coming. They're culpable too.

Lawson had a smaller role at the Atlanta Zoo when we hired him 10 years ago.

I don't believe he's ever been an Executive Director/CEO of any zoo previously.

I never understood how they arrived at the original number. Omaha opened a very similar sea lion exhibit (also Studio Hanson Roberts) in 2020. It was similar in size and amenities for the sea lions, and it did NOT include a penguin exhibit. The cost was $26.8 million dollars prior to post-pandemic inflation.

https://www.ketv.com/article/new-sea-lion-exhibit-could-help-revive-omaha-tourism-industry/33928947

Take a look at this, particularly the Zoo Indenture. Places most of the duty, authority and responsibility on the trustees. The director takes direction from and reports to them. Been mulling over this mess and resolution is gonna be painful for many.

https://www.okczoo.org/zoo-trust

you have a habit of telling people they are wrong without saying why, which adds very little to the conversation.
He’s been doing this since forever. He’ll post very short messages with zero evidence as to why other person is wrong and if there’s a post that he can’t turn into an argument, he’ll simply ignore it until you make a post that he can find a way to argue with.

Take a look at this, particularly the Zoo Indenture. Places most of the duty, authority and responsibility on the trustees. The director takes direction from and reports to them. Been mulling over this mess and resolution is gonna be painful for many.

https://www.okczoo.org/zoo-trust

They function like a Board of Directors.

But the CEO is the one who is providing them with the majority of their info. He went to them with the $27 million number, and they approved it. But it doesn't sound like they ever approved the first $37 estimate after bids, let alone $52 million in recent bids.

BTW, the zoo had to pay to relocate the sea lions in 2022 so they could start demolition and they were supposed to bring them back in a couple of years.

The sea lion exhibit also generated revenue through twice daily shows as late as 2022. There was a pretty big stadium there.


So now, we have a big dirt lot and no feasible plan to build anything. And what happens to those sea lions that are now in limbo?

I mean I don’t know. They’re probably having a great time!

19435 19436 19437

you have a habit of telling people they are wrong without saying why, which adds very little to the conversation.

Luckily, this site has a tool that can help you with that:cool:

Given, inflation, for the scope of the project they had in mind I can see where it would run 40-50 million. I think the estimate that Lawson initially gave was wishful thinking.

n/m

It should be noted the email stated they started the process back in March of 2021 and sounded like they engaged JE Dunn pretty quickly thereafter. In just about every industry, everyone knew that cost of good increased dramatically around that time. My Godson who was in high school knew about it and was talking to me about it. So, the head of the Zoo planning a sub-$30 million budget for a new project certainly should have known. How do you NOT go back to the architects and subs to check and make sure those costs are still similar three years later when you are going to start the process? That's the biggest mishap for me...

Well we don't know what Zoo management and JE Dunn talked about the past year. I will say, every one who has dealt with contractors or hired advisors knows you have to constantly poke at them for an update. They have the ability to look at their spreadsheets and budgeting software and give a more realistic number based on current conditions. Going into bidding blind is a bad strategy.

I seriously doubt when JE Dunn gave Lawson the original $37 estimate over a year ago -- which was already $10 million over budget -- they told him that the price would come down by waiting a year and then re-bidding.

I'm sure it was the opposite: prices will only increase. They do tons of commercial work, so they know exactly what is happening in the construction market.


This is all just super disappointing because they demolished a working facility, shipped out the sea lions, and now there doesn't seem to be a feasible plan for a new facility. And as I said, this casts serious doubt on the Okana aquarium and the long list of desired improvements outlined in their recent master plan.

Why would the demo of this facility hamstring an aquarium at Okana?

Why would the demo of this facility hamstring an aquarium at Okana?

Because they don't have the money to complete this project, which is a higher priority.

Everything behind this facility will have to be pushed back and some may be eliminated, especially if they are budgeted in the same completely unrealistic manner.

Because they don't have the money to complete this project, which is a higher priority.

Everything behind this facility will have to be pushed back and some may be eliminated, especially if they are budgeted in the same completely unrealistic manner.

Maybe I am not understanding, but would the zoo build an aquarium at Okana? I understand why this facility wouldn't get built and why it would mess with all of the other projects they announced earlier last year, but don't know the connection between an aquarium at a different location.

Maybe I am not understanding, but would the zoo build an aquarium at Okana? I understand why this facility wouldn't get built and why it would mess with all of the other projects they announced earlier last year, but don't know the connection between an aquarium at a different location.

Because the zoo will at least partially fund the aquarium and no doubt hire and pay the people to operate it.

Otherwise, Okana wouldn't need them at all.

While all the facts and circumstances aren’t known, at first blush, I wouldn’t partner with an organization that missed the mark this badly, failed to deliver on long promised results and responded with “Oh well”.

n/m

^

I've gone over this many times.

You should disclose you have a personal connection to the zoo; you are hardly objective in this matter.

n/m

when did the city advertise for BIDS for this project ? you know competitive binding bids??

Never said they did competitive binding bids previously.

But Lawson's email said that JE Dunn did seek bids from contractors over a year ago and that's where they came up with the $37 million number.


This has been rehashed like a dozen times now.

Because the zoo will at least partially fund the aquarium and no doubt hire and pay the people to operate it.

Otherwise, Okana wouldn't need them at all.
Is this normal in other cities that have aquariums that aren’t in the zoo they have? Like for example, is that massive aquarium in Atlanta connected to the zoo? If not why couldn’t OKANA just do their own thing with an aquarium?

Not sure about the ATL, but the TUL has the zoo up on the north side and the aquarium down in Jenks. Not sure if that's normal either, though.

Is this normal in other cities that have aquariums that aren’t in the zoo they have? Like for example, is that massive aquarium in Atlanta connected to the zoo? If not why couldn’t OKANA just do their own thing with an aquarium?

They 100% can. They are a private entity, and have minimal restrictions on them.

But I think the easiest route for an aquarium would be with the Zoo's help.

The zoo has long wanted an aquarium downtown; remember they pushed to be a part of MAPS 4 in the area that will now be the soccer stadium. That was also to be a partnership with private devleopers.

In their trustee minutes, they talked about being able to reach more people, get the benefit of revenue, and that while they would put up some of the funds and operate the facility, Okana would also partially fund it.

It's a win/win partnership. However, it would certainly be behind this aquatic mammal exhibit in priority which is another reason to be disappointed by how that project has been handled. Arguably, this issue will put the zoo back years on a number of improvements.

So does that basically f up the zoo’s expansion plans or just requires going back to the drawing board for the aquarium? As another poster said I’d rather postpone upgrading the zoo aquarium until it can be done right not value engineered to get it done quicker. I’m willing to wait for a better end product.

This would be like if the new arena cost came out to be, what, 1.7 billion dollars? What's sad is that I could see people on here defending that too. A 93% overrun is unbelievable.

It will be every bit of 1.5B.

The $900M was politically convenient. Sounds a lot better to be under a billion.

The zoo can build a lot of things for what it will cost to build an aquarium. OKANA would have to pitch in a lot of money to get it built. The zoo would be like the Thunder in this relationship. I think the zoos biggest contribution would be vet services and it's connections to the network of partner zoos.

very interesting to see all of the scrutiny with the OKC Zoo when issues like this and WORSE are dismissed when it comes to the State Fair board. Both have dedicated funding sources yet the State Fair is allowed to show up at EVERY MAPS initiative for pork projects. State Fair board decided to remove OKC Fairground icons without consent from the public, with no replacement or master plan yet people are up in arms over the Zoo missing a construction estimate.

Im not saying we shouldn't be concerned with the miss from the Zoo, but my recollection is they have run a fine organization, haven't been showing up begging for money, and this is their 1 miss and they appear to be owning up to it and making the best decision for the city. None of this is true for the State Fair but many on here and throughout the OKC landscape dismiss any question about the Fair.

I think the OKC public should have transparency on every city department, trust, and expenditure. Yet it is the State Fair and not the OKC Zoo that is the least transparent arm of city govt funding even moreso than the Economic Development Agency (and that's saying something. ..) I wonder why?

very interesting to see all of the scrutiny with the OKC Zoo when issues like this and WORSE are dismissed when it comes to the State Fair board. Both have dedicated funding sources yet the State Fair is allowed to show up at EVERY MAPS initiative for pork projects. State Fair board decided to remove OKC Fairground icons without consent from the public, with no replacement or master plan yet people are up in arms over the Zoo missing a construction estimate.

Im not saying we shouldn't be concerned with the miss from the Zoo, but my recollection is they have run a fine organization, haven't been showing up begging for money, and this is their 1 miss and they appear to be owning up to it and making the best decision for the city. None of this is true for the State Fair but many on here and throughout the OKC landscape dismiss any question about the Fair.

I think the OKC public should have transparency on every city department, trust, and expenditure. Yet it is the State Fair and not the OKC Zoo that is the least transparent arm of city govt funding even moreso than the Economic Development Agency (and that's saying something. ..) I wonder why?

I think the zoo could have made it on to this MAPS if they had submitted everything on time. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember it being mentioned in the MAPS thread that they missed deadlines and as a result were not under real consideration. If I am wrong someone, please correct me.

I think the zoo could have made it on to this MAPS if they had submitted everything on time. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember it being mentioned in the MAPS thread that they missed deadlines and as a result were not under real consideration. If I am wrong someone, please correct me.

no the maps projects were selects behind doors well in advance ..

The State Fair Board keeps a very tight lid on their plans and internal workings. I don’t like it one bit, but you can’t object or approve of what you can’t see.