How run down was the Skirvin before it was restored? Did they ever get a return on their investment....?

How run down was the Skirvin before it was restored? Did they ever get a return on their investment....?

Preservation zealots. Always mention the Skirvin. These building are not the Skirvin. Not even close.

I usually mention The Marion and Steve Mason's 9th Street properties. Maybe the Skirvin isn't a fair comparison when talking about intrinsic value, but it IS a valid analog when discussing relative condition and functional obsolescence.

Preservation zealots. Always mention the Skirvin. These building are not the Skirvin. Not even close.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j286/UnFrSaKn/muslimoutrageoverpopebenedict-1.jpg

Is a pig's butt pork? Of course I would, but I was trying to say it in a nice way. I just really hate what is going on and do not think this is a good deal at all for DT and OKC. My point is that anytime history is destroyed, that is a bad thing. When it is destroyed and replaced with a project that will not inspire anyone, it makes it even worse. Of course I would like to see more height as well as many others. It just seems wrong that if they plan on leveling buildings, at least make it something we can all be proud of and take some pride in. I think the general consensus of this project would say they are very, very underwhelmed and disappointed, and perhaps bordering on ashamed of what is going to happen.

I really wish an admin would let these people know that Thunder and I or not the same person. I have no clue who is he, but I do like his posts. Come on Pete, redeem me please! :cool:

I really wish an admin would let these people know that Thunder and I or not the same person. I have no clue who is he, but I do like his posts. Come on Pete, redeem me please! :cool:

Understood Not Thunder...

If they allow a parking garage canyon at Sheridan and Walker, well, I don't know what to say, other than people here do not get it.

If they allow a parking garage canyon at Sheridan and Walker, well, I don't know what to say, other than people here do not get it.

I thought first floor interaction was allthat mattered?

Good grief.

Reminder that Devon's Chairman Larry Nichols is also chair of the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority (OCURA) and the Alliance for Economic Development.

And is on the Convention Center subcommittee that awarded itself an extra $30 million above their budget and likely manipulated the MAPS 3 timeline. He doesn't expect to be told "no" - ever.

Maybe down the street from the OKC Memorial and Museum, we can create a history center dedicated to all the former landmark buildings that have been torn down in the name of progress. Each historical piece can include rubble from the former residence. Or we could just rename downtown to Devonville.

Downtown OKC = L. Nichols' Will.

Downtown OKC = L. Nichols' Will.

Thank goodness for that... He is with out a doubt one of the great civic leaders in our cities history... The guy with the vision. the determination and the ability to make it happen versus the critics that don't even live here that want to tell us how we should be doing things while they have nothing invested... .

I'm a lot more comfortable with his vision and ability to get it done than yours...

good for you.

But that doesn't make L. Nichols or his 'vision' for downtown perfect and his ideas are far from ideal. Yes, he is a great corporate citizen and does care much about downtown OKC, but he is also stubborn and a little bit out-of-touch with reality and is planning to destroy a significant part of OKC so his buildings can all have bedroom views of the Myriad Gardens - a CITY park! There is also speculative evidence of him using his prominent positions in OKC leadership to encourage his pet projects at the detriment of others (which just so happened to be more popular with the voting public).

I challenge Nichols to view a different approach and adopt his new buildings to an urban standard; as it would have far reaching effects on downtown OKC on a level equal to if not greater than his Devon Tower. If he were to consider urban density and the value of the history of this city; there could be a compromise to be had where all parties can win.

A true philanthropist adopts a strategy where the city as a whole can win (ie, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, so on that we have here in Seattle - none of whom are leading city committees up here, btw) rather than someone like Nichols who does a good thing keeping his growing company in OKC and then expecting carte blanche to play Sim Demo downtown OKC without oversight or challenge. ...

By being close-minded and stubborn about a major US city's downtown; Nichols risks pushing out the very people (talented young urban professionals/millennials) he's trying to attract to his company and city.

If Larry Nichols would have relocated Devon to Houston, just how much would downtown suck ? No MBG transformation, nor P180 improvements.....still have a huge Galleria parking lot. And no Devon Tower.

Doesn't mean he should get his way in all things for all time with zero questions asked, though.

Doesn't mean he should get his way in all things for all time with zero questions asked, though.

+1

The name they are giving this place says it all. Could "499 Sheridan" be more generic? This tower wasn't designed to stand out, its just supposed to be a compliment to the Devon Tower. Any & every building that gets in the way of the continuous flow of the campus HAS to be demolished.

If Larry Nichols would have relocated Devon to Houston, just how much would downtown suck ? No MBG transformation, nor P180 improvements.....still have a huge Galleria parking lot. And no Devon Tower.

Well, by all means, let's give the man free reign over downtown. He's earned it.

good for you.

A true philanthropist adopts a strategy where the city as a whole can win (ie, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, so on that we have here in Seattle - none of whom are leading city committees up here, btw) rather than someone like Nichols who does a good thing keeping his growing company in OKC and then expecting carte blanche to play Sim Demo downtown OKC without oversight or challenge. ...
.

It's funny that you use Microsoft as an example. I did a project of theirs in Bellevue that is almost identical to the Clayco proposal. If they were here in OKC he would be vilified too.

Well, by all means, let's give the man free reign over downtown. He's earned it.

Yes, we could go back to the crumbling one way streets, serious lack of bicycle lanes, poor pedestrian crossings, the 30 year old version of the MBG, higher unemployment rates, etc. IIRC, he removed himself from several authorities and boards when they decided to build their HQ tower. He also denied the city to rename the Civic Center park after him. I can understand when he invest as much as he did, he wants a few things right. Should they keep some of those buildings, I think so, but Hines is involved also and I don't think they are attached to them.
The bottom line, OKC is a better place with him than without. Could things be better ? Everyone thinks so, but they could be much worse.

Yes, we could go back to the crumbling one way streets, serious lack of bicycle lanes, poor pedestrian crossings, the 30 year old version of the MBG, higher unemployment rates, etc. IIRC, he removed himself from several authorities and boards when they decided to build their HQ tower. He also denied the city to rename the Civic Center park after him. I can understand when he invest as much as he did, he wants a few things right. Should they keep some of those buildings, I think so, but Hines is involved also and I don't think they are attached to them.
The bottom line, OKC is a better place with him than without. Could things be better ? Everyone thinks so, but they could be much worse.

+1

There is a fine line between preservationism and biting the hand that feeds you.

There's also a line between biting the hand that feeds you and letting buildings that have been intentionally allowed to decay through lack of maintenance be torn down because they haven't been maintained.

Preservation zealots. Always mention the Skirvin. These building are not the Skirvin. Not even close.

Nor do they have to be to be worth saving.

Nothing in bricktown was the skirvin. Nothing in midtown or automobile alley was the skirvin. Nothing in the Paseo or 23rd was the skirvin. But, all of these districts owe more of their current status as emerging vibrant districts to renovation and preservation than they do to demolition.

This block is more of a collective issue and use issue. Not only are we going to lose most of a block for parking, which will limit the density of the entire block, we're clearing one of a few blocks left that show Oklahoma City did have an urban past with representative period architecture. And this unimaginative project could go several places in downtown within blocks of this one and not have to replace ANY current assets with parking. It's just sucks on so many levels. It really really will be one where it only gets better the farther you get from it.

But, you know, pretty much every city has a sterile and bland section that has lots of massing and no life. This will be ours.

+1

There is a fine line between preservationism and biting the hand that feeds you.

There's also the consideration of how far you have to bend over to get fed.

Does anyone know if Devon will allow non-employees to sign their petition in favor of the demolitions?

Does anyone know if Devon will allow non-employees to sign their petition in favor of the demolitions?

Haha. I don't think that'll be necessary.

If Larry Nichols would have relocated Devon to Houston, just how much would downtown suck ? No MBG transformation, nor P180 improvements.....still have a huge Galleria parking lot. And no Devon Tower.

You build the biggest house in Galardia, doesn't mean you're the head of the HOA.

Thank goodness for that... He is with out a doubt one of the great civic leaders in our cities history... The guy with the vision. the determination and the ability to make it happen versus the critics that don't even live here that want to tell us how we should be doing things while they have nothing invested... .

I'm a lot more comfortable with his vision and ability to get it done than yours...

What if Mr. Nichols' vision and ability don't equal good new urbanism?
What if good new urbanism equals good management of real estate and taxing mechanisms for the city?
What if good new urbanism equals creating a vibrant downtown that could be a viral cure for what ails Oklahoma City (and many metros)?
What if Mr. Nichols' vision and ability make it harder for OKC to progress into a dynamic downtown that many aspire to live in?
Reading through this thread makes me think of the rich patron in Amadeus who listened to Mozart's music and declared it had "too many notes".
Do we also get absolution for mediocrity if it comes from the mind of a seemingly benevolent patron?

Yes, we could go back to the crumbling one way streets, serious lack of bicycle lanes, poor pedestrian crossings, the 30 year old version of the MBG, higher unemployment rates, etc. IIRC, he removed himself from several authorities and boards when they decided to build their HQ tower. He also denied the city to rename the Civic Center park after him. I can understand when he invest as much as he did, he wants a few things right. Should they keep some of those buildings, I think so, but Hines is involved also and I don't think they are attached to them.
The bottom line, OKC is a better place with him than without. Could things be better ? Everyone thinks so, but they could be much worse.

But this thread is so much more entertaining when people are vilifying Larry Nichols!

If Larry Nichols would have relocated Devon to Houston, just how much would downtown suck ? No MBG transformation, nor P180 improvements.....still have a huge Galleria parking lot. And no Devon Tower.

While I appreciate what he has done for downtown, I don't think that means he should be given carte Blanche to do anything he pleases. He's a businessman, not an architect or planner. We should all be aware of our own limitations.

it is only a couple of blocks downtown in the business core! Is OKC so fragile that a two block region will destroy all urbanism in the city? There are lots of other vital areas in around downtown that meet the urbanism vision. I don't think one corporate headquarters, located with the intention to spur redevelopment in a decaying downtown, warrant all the negativity. Maybe 499 Sheridan will be cold and bleak, but it will also bring a lot of people to the area. Some may drive in and drive out without touching the ground, but many will go to lunch and do a bit of shopping and maybe even choose to move closer to work, all benefiting downtown. I just don't see this development as a cancer. May not be the best it could be, but it will provide an overall benefit to downtown.

Reminder that a very small number of downtown businessmen were behind the massive clearings in favor of development that never came.

There is always a risk that after a demolition that the promised (or anticipated) development falls through.

We've already seen that happen with SandRidge, as they stated emphatically they would build another tower on their property, then their business hit a rough patch, the man that made the promise was thrown out and now we'll be lucky if they continue to inhabit what they already have.

In fact, they had to lease out the Braniff and will probably do so with the Parkside.

I wish that the bus station and Hotel Black could be incorporated and if not one then the other. But I can also be a realist here. How often has there been a 400 to 500 million dollar development dropped in our lap, and without TIF funding help requested ?
Ideally, they move the west garage to the east and leave the bus station for other development. Stack 499 on top of the garage (soondoc should like this because it'd be taller) and leave the Black Hotel. I really believe that the Black is basically in the way of the sight line view to MBG. If the tower were stacked on the garage it would alleviate that issue. I'd love for the Hotel Black to be another Colcord.
But it's not my money and they need it to work financially for themselves.

^

The estimated cost for 499 Sheridan is about $250 million; maybe slightly less.

Heh, I was just able to go look up that number.

Heh, I was just able to go look up that number.

How?

Mistype, that should be about not able.

For those that might know, what do you think the cost difference would be between a standalone parking garage and a parking garage with an office building on top of it? Are we talking 10% increase in cost? More? Since all of these are going to be concrete, I would think the footing and thickness of the concrete on the parking garage would have to be thicker, but that is about it. Of course, I am not an architect...

While I appreciate what he has done for downtown, I don't think that means he should be given carte Blanche to do anything he pleases. He's a businessman, not an architect or planner. We should all be aware of our own limitations.

Exactly. There is no reason at all that Devon couldn't expand AND preserve what has already been built. It is just a matter of wanting to. When I go to places like Chattanooga and see how well they have restored their historic downtown I actually get very sad that civic leaders in OKC have zero interest in following that model.

$225 - $250 million is the number the City is using when calculating pro formas for the new TIF this project will feed.

Basically, in terms of expense: 499 Sheridan + OG&E Energy Center = Devon Energy Center

Development will continue to penetrate the OKC Central Business District. Many of you would love to see some taller structures comparable to the Devon Tower on the developments being proposed like the Stage Center and Preftakes blocks.

Don't be surprised to see future development within this five year window include some 40 - 50 story structures. The tall towers will come as long as Oklahoma City doesn't place a restriction on height.

For those that might know, what do you think the cost difference would be between a standalone parking garage and a parking garage with an office building on top of it? Are we talking 10% increase in cost? More? Since all of these are going to be concrete, I would think the footing and thickness of the concrete on the parking garage would have to be thicker, but that is about it. Of course, I am not an architect...

I get the impression they just want them gone. It doesn't seem like design, price, or impact is a consideration.

They bought up this block while it had tenants in it for a good deal a money. A lot more than it would have been to buy one up that was already 50%+ parking and less occupancy. Then they cleared out the tenants and got it deemed "functionally obsolete", so they could scrape the block of assets they paid for and make it 50%+ parking.

Considering who is behind it, the demolition for parking is not the result of some logistical or financial limitations. This is what they have wanted from the beginning.

For those that might know, what do you think the cost difference would be between a standalone parking garage and a parking garage with an office building on top of it? Are we talking 10% increase in cost? More? Since all of these are going to be concrete, I would think the footing and thickness of the concrete on the parking garage would have to be thicker, but that is about it. Of course, I am not an architect...



About $250 million. That is after the vehicle's bomb goes off UNDER the building. Sic. maybe, but it can happen.:eek:

I get the impression they just want them gone. It doesn't seem like design, price, or impact is a consideration.

They bought up this block while it had tenants in it for a good deal a money. A lot more than it would have been to buy one up that was already 50%+ parking and less occupancy. Then they cleared out the tenants and got it deemed "functionally obsolete", so they could scrape the block of assets they paid for and make it 50%+ parking.

Considering who is behind it, the demolition is not the result of some logistical or financial limitations. This is what they have wanted from the beginning.


I believe your assessment is spot on, and I hold out little hope for the historic structures. They are building this space, which includes DEC proper, 499 Sheridan, the Convention Center, the CC hotel, all heavily influenced by Larry and Devon, and combined with The Chesapeake Arena and the OG&E/Clayco projects to be used and viewed from inside or from a distance. There is absolutely no meaningful respect for the activity with the street. They are building a bleak moat around the MBG with only one destination per block. Most of OKC will have no reason to go there.

OKC needs to demand that the street level on all four sides remain or be built to be welcoming, active and vibrant for all citizens. Window boxes won't cut it. If we do let it slide, we'll be living with it for the next fifty years before the opportunity to correct it comes around.

If Larry Nichols would have relocated Devon to Houston, just how much would downtown suck ? No MBG transformation, nor P180 improvements.....still have a huge Galleria parking lot. And no Devon Tower.


Yes, we could go back to the crumbling one way streets, serious lack of bicycle lanes, poor pedestrian crossings, the 30 year old version of the MBG, higher unemployment rates, etc. IIRC, he removed himself from several authorities and boards when they decided to build their HQ tower. He also denied the city to rename the Civic Center park after him. I can understand when he invest as much as he did, he wants a few things right. Should they keep some of those buildings, I think so, but Hines is involved also and I don't think they are attached to them.
The bottom line, OKC is a better place with him than without. Could things be better ? Everyone thinks so, but they could be much worse.Couldn't agree more!

There's also a line between biting the hand that feeds you and letting buildings that have been intentionally allowed to decay through lack of maintenance be torn down because they haven't been maintained.We're biting the hand that feeds us.

You build the biggest house in Galardia, doesn't mean you're the head of the HOA.If you fix their streets, and bring the place back from the grave, I'd say yeah.

If you fix their streets, and bring the place back from the grave, I'd say yeah.

Excuse me, but OKC brought itself back from the grave with Maps. Devon may have gotten behind the cart and helped push, but they aren't remotely the only people working for the betterment of this city, and they certainly weren't the first.

If you fix their streets, and bring the place back from the grave, I'd say yeah.

Remember, Devon didn't pay for any of Project 180, the taxpayers paid every red cent. Including the massive Myriad Gardens re-do.

It's funny that you use Microsoft as an example. I did a project of theirs in Bellevue that is almost identical to the Clayco proposal. If they were here in OKC he would be vilified too.

That wasn't Gates, that was Ballmer who built the Bellevue developments (Bravern, which is close to I-405) you're talking about. And by the way, Bravern has parking underground, as does Lincoln Square (a 28-storey highrise in Downtown Bellevue that I work in).

There are NO large above ground parking garages in downtown Bellevue; all are underground and/or partially above or contained within the building just like it should be in an urbanized DOWNTOWN area.

And to those who don't know, Bellevue WA is a SUBURB of Seattle of 150,000 people; BTW.

Excuse me, but OKC brought itself back from the grave with Maps. Devon may have gotten behind the cart and helped push, but they aren't remotely the only people working for the betterment of this city, and they certainly weren't the first.

I also wonder where we would be if Devon moved to Houston.

Hey, at least we'd still have a couple of buildings the majority of the city doesn't care about or see.

Remember, Devon didn't pay for any of Project 180, the taxpayers paid every red cent. Including the massive Myriad Gardens re-do.

I thought Devon paid for the redo of the streets around the Devon center? I also thought they donated some money towards the gardens. Is that not the case?

I thought Devon paid for the redo of the streets around the Devon center? I also thought they donated some money towards the gardens. Is that not the case?

It is from the taxes from the building, specifically the difference between what the property was worth before and after construction, which if not going to streets and gardens would be going to the normal channels the taxes go through.

they advanced tax dollars designated for a TIF that paid for P180. They volunteered to give the city money in advanced, rather than waiting out the duration on the dollars.

There likely was also tax advantages to this strategy as well that I'm sure Devon took advantage of (and why not?); however you can see this is a very positive way to use TIF.

9977

From the text above the graphic, it's pretty clear that Devon thinks work is a place to drive to. Why would you want any stores or restaurants there?

Excuse me, but OKC brought itself back from the grave with Maps. Devon may have gotten behind the cart and helped push, but they aren't remotely the only people working for the betterment of this city, and they certainly weren't the first.

You're right and more specifically, it was suburbanites that then and now made it happen with our votes and sales tax dollars.. We've supported the rebirth of our downtown every step of the way and really don't ask for much...other than easy access driving in and out and a place to park when we get there.

I had a recent conversation with a member of the city council and they told me their projections show that downtown needs another 7000 parking spaces to accommodate currently planned and expected growth...

The Hines and Clayco developments go a long way in getting there...and these parking garages along the streetcar route are ideal for those of us wanting to park and ride...




Remember, Devon didn't pay for any of Project 180, the taxpayers paid every red cent. Including the massive Myriad Gardens re-do.

Really Pete? You know as well as anyone that Devon could have had every red cent spent on there corporate campus. It was Larry Nichols that instead came up with the idea of using those TIF funds to transform the Myriad Gardens and rebuilt the streets downtown and then went over and above in loaning the city the money in advance to make it happen... Nice way to show you appreciate it.

I thought Devon paid for the redo of the streets around the Devon center? I also thought they donated some money towards the gardens. Is that not the case?

They "fronted" the money for the TIF, and were repaid with interest.

You're right and more specifically, it was suburbanites that then and now made it happen with our votes and sales tax dollars.. We've supported the rebirth of our downtown every step of the way and really don't ask for much...other than easy access driving in and out and a place to park when we get there. .
+1

southside, we appreciate what Devon and Larry has done. He set the bar high.

Now, he should keep the renaissance going with high development and not this small time fit that it seems 499 is going to be as designed.

They "fronted" the money for the TIF, and were repaid with interest.

Your post implies a nefarious motive. it was just to appease shareholders. What was the interest rate and what did it add to their bottom line?