It's a beautiful building (IMO) but why the hell they needed to surround it with so much parking, I'll never understand.

It's a beautiful building (IMO) but why the hell they needed to surround it with so much parking, I'll never understand.

Devon/BOK prioritized parking right next to the building over a vibrant neighborhood with this building. If they'd taken a more holistic perspective, they might have valued why empolyees might want to work (and even live) in an area with restaurants, shops, and other amenities. Tp me, the vibrancy of core neighborhoods is what defines great cities for the people who live there.

Interestingly, the new Arts District garage right across the street has been running at only 50% occupancy.

Interestingly, the new Arts District garage right across the street has been running at only 50% occupancy.

I fear that the streetcar is going to fail if businesses and citizens keep building parking garages. There will be barely any incentive for citizens to take the streetcar if there's a parking garage next to everywhere you want to go. Am I off base?

I fear that the streetcar is going to fail if businesses and citizens keep building parking garages. There will be barely any incentive for citizens to take the streetcar if there's a parking garage next to everywhere you want to go. Am I off base?

I've wondered the same thing. It's too bad the streetcar won't run closer to this BOK project, as they ended up building a great little park and ride with all the garages. lol

I fear that the streetcar is going to fail if businesses and citizens keep building parking garages. There will be barely any incentive for citizens to take the streetcar if there's a parking garage next to everywhere you want to go. Am I off base?
You very well could be correct on the success of the streetcar. However, I believe there will be an X amount of time, once it is operating, that people will use and ride the streetcars simply because of the novelty of them. Maybe because of that "novelty" riding, others will see that they can be used for convenient transport in the downtown and surrounding areas. JMO

I've wondered the same thing. It's too bad the streetcar won't run closer to this BOK project, as they ended up building a great little park and ride with all the garages. lol

The streetcar will run right next this tower on Hudson and on Sheridan.

The streetcar will run right next this tower on Hudson and on Sheridan.

Yep, you're right. My bad, I'm not sure what I thought I was looking at. Anyway, the park and ride is perfect then. lol

I fear that the streetcar is going to fail if businesses and citizens keep building parking garages. There will be barely any incentive for citizens to take the streetcar if there's a parking garage next to everywhere you want to go. Am I off base?

That's a chicken or the egg argument. Business are going to keep building parking garages until they see a shift in their employees behavior. But really best cast short term, is that you have some people who live down town utilize it, visitors using it, or employees leaving their cars in their employers garage for an extra hour or two while they go to dinner or events across downtown.

Having a streetcar will certainly help employers with recruiting.

Maybe because of that "novelty" riding, others will see that they can be used for convenient transport in the downtown and surrounding areas. JMO

The streetcar will fail if it is to rely on novelty instead of habits.


That's a chicken or the egg argument. Business are going to keep building parking garages until they see a shift in their employees behavior. But really best cast short term, is that you have some people who live down town utilize it, visitors using it, or employees leaving their cars in their employers garage for an extra hour or two while they go to dinner or events across downtown.

Having a streetcar will certainly help employers with recruiting.

Employees will not change their habits if employers are subsidizing their parking. I wish more downtown employers would say to their employees, you can have a parking spot or $1,000 a year (I am not sure of the actual cost of a parking spot so maybe this number could be higher). Instead, employers just build a garage and offer everyone parking. Car culture relies on the government and employers subsidizing all their costs (free or cheap highways and parking) instead of having to make free market economic decisions. In a real free market, dense housing and public transit becomes far more viable.

Unfortunately, I don't see how or why the streetcar will succeed. Of course, I really hope I am wrong.

Unfortunately, I don't see how or why the streetcar will succeed. Of course, I really hope I am wrong.

I've come to this conclusion as well. I hope it does, but I just don't see how it will.

I've come to this conclusion as well. I hope it does, but I just don't see how it will.

Why do you think the streetcar will fail? Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious to hear all opinions.

Remember, the streetcar is paid for.

The only on-going costs will be related to operation which will be partially offset by ridership.

Very hard to imagine how it will fail, no matter how slow the start.

Very hard to imagine how it will fail, no matter how slow the start.

I guess I meant fail in the sense that it will have low ridership, which will mean there is not an impetus for expansion.

^

Even if there is low ridership several developers have cited the streetcar as motivation to build on or near the line.

That is a huge return to OKC and will no doubt prompt further expansion, regardless of initial ridership.

I remember when L.A. opened it's first subway line and everyone lamented the low ridership and lack of network. Now, the thing is so packed you can barely ride it at peak times.

You have to start somewhere and let the system grow. This was never meant to be the end game, just the beginning.

Businesses will keep building garages until their employees and customers have a different option. The streetcar is the first real effort we've made to provide those people with another option. We're not going to build so many parking garages in the next 5 years to make the streetcar a failure. Midtown and Automobile Alley will probably be the biggest beneficiaries of the streetcar system. It will let people get from their downtown garages or the Bass Pro lot and travel all around the downtown area.

Slowly, some people will be able to make the adjustment so they can live or work downtown without using a car. Businesses will operate successfully without having easy parking nearby. But that's a cultural shift that will take some time to accomplish. You've got to have enough density in the first place to make it easy. The streetcar will help with that.

Remember, the streetcar is paid for.

This is so important and something I know I fail to consider on occasion. It's also why I have reservations regarding moving from MAPS's original intent with MAPS 4 by focusing on infrastructure instead of primarily building visible, city-defining civic projects that either would never happen or may struggle mightily if saddled with a significant amount of debt. I just got done reading David Holt's "Big League City" which discussed the role that the City of Seattle's debt on Key Arena played in them losing the Sonics and failing to build a new arena, which has had me thinking about this important part of MAPS recently.

Yeah, I mostly meant that ridership will be extremely low and that it will just be a novelty thing. I can't really imagine anyone using it for a real, frequent purpose. People may use it once a year randomly. That doesn;t really create the ridership needed to be considered successful, I would think.

The sooner it is expanded into important corridors the more likely it will get and stay relevant to non-novelty enthusiasts...

Yeah, I mostly meant that ridership will be extremely low and that it will just be a novelty thing. I can't really imagine anyone using it for a real, frequent purpose. People may use it once a year randomly. That doesn;t really create the ridership needed to be considered successful, I would think.

I disagree. I think initially ridership will be low and will increase over time. that is generally how it works out for most new transit. I think many people will be surprised.

What would be great is if they had a program in the beginning to offer free service. I thought I read they were going to have Sundays as a free ride day. I think it would be better if it was a week day for the first 3 months. Something to incentivize the use of it.

I think we may be getting WAY off track and perhaps this conversation should be happening in the streetcar thread.

I think we may be getting WAY off track and perhaps this conversation should be happening in the streetcar thread.

No pun intended! :)

I may have intended it a bit.. I smiled while typing..lol

The sooner it is expanded into important corridors the more likely it will get and stay relevant to non-novelty enthusiasts...

Yeah, this might be getting OT at this point, but how serious are the plans to extend it up Classen (or even NW Expwy), or is that just a pipe dream? That'd be a huge gamechanger for me, personally.

:ot:

Yeah, this might be getting OT at this point, but how serious are the plans to extend it up Classen (or even NW Expwy), or is that just a pipe dream? That'd be a huge gamechanger for me, personally.

The Classen extension of the streetcar was identified in ACOG's 2015 Commuter Corridor Study as part of the Locally-Preferred Alternative for the North Corridor. Basically the governments of OKC and its suburbs recognize its potential and singled it out as a possibility based on the responses of citizens of the North Side. So no, I wouldn't say it's a pipe dream.

Perhaps Jeff or someone else can expound or speak with more authority but my understanding is that the streetcar will most likely be extended up Classen at some point, but obviously as of now there's no timeline or designated funding source.

Personally, I think it's more likely we'll see a Capitol Hill or HSC extension first just because those lines would be shorter and the benefits are pretty obvious. I'm with you though, as someone who lives in the core but not downtown, I'll use the initial streetcar occasionally, but I can't wait to see it running up and down Classen.

BOK Park Plaza is lookin good now I think its got a nice height

From today. All office floors are now complete; can see the beginning of the 3-level crown structure starting to take shape.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bok020917.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bok020917b.jpg

I'm hoping these look nice and actually light up the building.

Does anyone have a estimated completion date?

Does anyone have a estimated completion date?

I believe they still have about a year to go before the start moving people in.

It looks like it will be similar to the triangles in Devon's crown.

Anybody have any updated pics of how the crown is coming along?

There isn't much progress on the crown yet. I drove by on 40 and was looking at it and you could tell they're just starting on the crown. I have a feeling it will take a few weeks to complete.

Yeah, they can't just use the same forms they've been using for the office floors, so there won't be as rapid a change from week to week.

Some pics of when Devon's crown was being built. 13571
13572

1357513576135771357813579

^

Thanks for the photos!

Very curious to see if they use steel on the crown as the did for Devon Tower.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bok020917a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bok021917b.jpg

^ Is that the final garage sheathing?

It looks rather dated.

There really needs to be something more to it as it is so very ugly as it is now.

That looks hideous. I hope that's not the final design.

The garage district is looking great!

Perhaps they're channeling brutalism. Apparently it's back in fashion: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/06/t-magazine/design/brutalist-architecture-revival.html?_r=0

it's definitely not great looking up close, and it's odd to me that they chose to still have the corners glass. The one by the glass building, okay, that's transitional, but the one on Main Street makes no sense at all to me.

it's definitely not great looking up close, and it's odd to me that they chose to still have the corners glass. The one by the glass building, okay, that's transitional, but the one on Main Street makes no sense at all to me.
Isn't that where they are going to display the old sign for the bus station?

Isn't that where they are going to display the old sign for the bus station?

It's kind of like a big game hunter's trophy case.

How's the crown coming along?

It's kind of like a big game hunter's trophy case.

In his case against the developer and City, Shadid called it a glass coffin.

From this morning:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bok022117.jpg

Found this slightly updated lobby rendering on the Pickard Chilton site:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/boklobby.jpg

Thx looks nice. Only complaint is the parking garage design.

I don't know why they couldn't just mirror the existing Devon garage. Everything else is a Devon copy, but they had to go different with an ugly parking garage.

It just looks IMO out of place they built a completely glass high rise then attached a parking garage that looks nothing like anything around it.

Now I'm worried to see the facade they put up on the even bigger garage at Walker and Sheridan.

May very well be these same plastic panels.

May very well be these same plastic panels.

i hope not..

They could've just left it like the Sheridan/walker garage

Now I'm worried to see the facade they put up on the even bigger garage at Walker and Sheridan.

May very well be these same plastic panels.

Plastic?

it's definitely not great looking up close, and it's odd to me that they chose to still have the corners glass. The one by the glass building, okay, that's transitional, but the one on Main Street makes no sense at all to me.

The Main Street corner won't be glass except at the ground floor level

See post # 451 of this thread