Let me say, I feel more than a little vindicated with this summary.

This is the thing about you, is that it's not about you. Stop soaking up the glory and maybe there will be more left over for your cause or issue, especially if you really are right (which you always are, in my observation).

Per Steve's article, who is this Chuck Ainsworth fellow who "argued in favor of the demolition, saying the targeted buildings 'are functionally obsolete.'"

Weren't these buildings being fully used before tenants were kicked out? How are they "functionally obsolete?"

He is somebody that utilizes public subsidies for his own historic preservation projects, just saying

I may not agree with some (even a lot) of their decisions but this is taking things too far IMO.

Come on, you were raising concerns not long ago about how David Wanzer got removed from DDRC...

Here is one of the better on-site parking garages I have personally seen. This is the 100 North Tampa building in Tampa, FL. The ground floor is a bank lobby and then everything up to the window grid is parking garage. The spiral drive on each end of the parking allows people to go to directly to their floor and not wind through the whole garage.

http://www.tampasdowntown.com/userfiles/images/100ntampa.jpg

Kerry, if the workers can go directly from the parking garage into their floor how is that any better for street activity than having a sky bridge from the parking garage to their offices? I do understand that the esthetics are better but that isn't always the point you are trying to make.

Plans For New High-Rise In Downtown OKC Raise Concerns - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/27671186/plans-for-new-high-rise-in-downtown-okc-raise-concerns)

Hoping to add something productive to this thread. The fact that historic buildings will be demolished to create this tower and these garages is saddening to me, but I am personally still Very excited for this develpment.

I have seen a lot of talk about the "twist" and the statement that it does not make the building "more interesting". I 95% agree with that statement, but the building sitting on an angle does something MUCH more important in my opinion. The angle allows every office (or hallway of cubicals) on the East side of the tower to face the Myriad Gardens and possibly even give a view of the convention center and new park south of that.

I state the view of the Myriad Gardens (and new city park) as an important and exciting aspect of this project because of what that view has done for me personally. I grew up in a rural town outside of OKC and never imagined falling in love with downtown OKC. A concrete jungle just wasn't appealing to me.

After interning at Devon for nearly 2 years I can say now that I love downtown OKC. The thing that started that love wasn't the proximity to restaurants, the pedestrian traffic, or street front shops. It was the first time I walked into a lounge that overlooks the Myriad Gardens and blocks of empty lots south of that. The beauty of the Gardens from that view was breathtaking, and I could imagine a park that stretched all the way to skydance bridge. Being able to look at a beautiful park at work and then live within walking distance to that park became very exciting. I lived in Legacy (Avana) apartments for 2 summers and enjoyed having a peaceful green space to get away to. In my opinion, looking one way out your office and seeing a beautiful park, and looking the other and seeing a beautiful elementary school is a moment that could get almost anyone to Consider downtown living. So my point is that there are more factors involved with the "twist" of the building than people seem to be recognizing. Also, the small "plaza" to the east of the building is still substantially smaller than Devon's lawn area where the Giant Christmas ornament sits and I don't see anyone complaining about the pedestrian interaction with that area.

I know there are valid arguments for and against every part of the design, but with it this far along in the process, I am choosing to look at this project as a positive thing.

Since it seems like the parking garages are the only items that aren't going to pass the review committee, I will throw in my 2 cents there.

I agree that the retail space obviously needs to be enlarged. I don't know how big the Devon garage stores are, but I do imagine them leasing out those spaces in the future.

I think that a great use of the parking garage “retail space” across the street from John Rex Elementary would be a Child Care Center. Imagine living downtown, walking your child to school, walking to work, walking back to get your child at the Child Care Center at 5:00, and then walking home with them. The fact that your child could be escorted across the street at 3:00 and picked up around 5:00 would be extremely convenient even if you didn’t live downtown. Also, during the summer months you could bring your children to work with you and walk them to daycare.

I think it would be Fantastic if they could put at least 1 or 2 levels of parking below ground. The Devon garage has 1 level below ground. However, I don't know any of the complexities involved with doing that. Driving up more than 9 stories in a parking garage does feel like driving to the moon, so I understand the height restrictions.

My suggestion would be to build the garage strong enough to support a few levels of apartments on top of it, with a green roof on top of the apartments. This would do several things. It would add residences above a street that could potentially have several retail shops on it, it would add another function to a necessary (but space consuming) downtown structure, and it would set an unpresedented "green building" element for downtown parking garages. In addition to that, the green roof would be much prettier to look at from the North side of the tower than the top of a traditional parking garage would be.

I apologize for butchering the rendering below in ms paint, but I tried my hand at creating a visual of my thoughts.

One last piece of input I wanted to voice is about the skybridge across Hudson. I don't really think it takes away from street interaction. When (or if) the parking garages on both sides of the street get retail shops or restaurants, people will still be able to easily access those. I think the skybridge adds safety and convenience. Crossing Hudson during lunch can not only be dangerous but could potentially inhibit the flow of traffic. Also, since the restaurants at 499 will be on the second floor, if you are going from the Devon tower to 499 for lunch you will have to go up one floor at some point anyways. Floors 1 and 2 of the DEC are open to the public, and it looks like the same will be true for 499.

9802

Plans For New High-Rise In Downtown OKC Raise Concerns - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/27671186/plans-for-new-high-rise-in-downtown-okc-raise-concerns)

That is basically a very short rehash of everything that has already been discussed.

Kerry, if the workers can go directly from the parking garage into their floor how is that any better for street activity than having a sky bridge from the parking garage to their offices?

Directly to their floor of the parking garage, instead of winding their way through the entire parking structure.

Directly to their floor of the parking garage, instead of winding their way through the entire parking structure.

And that has nothing to do with my question to Kerry.

Gotta love this comment:


How can there be two too many parking garages downtown where there is virtually NO PARKING ? Idiots in charge maybe ?

With all these developments, one thing that's common is parking is a much greater concern to the average OKC resident than good urbanism. It's for this reason that not providing enough will kill development downtown. Kerry's suggestion to just not build parking, hoping to force use of mass transit (which doesn't exist yet) would simply not work here.

Parking is the issue everywhere, not just OKC. Even in Chicago people in the north side neighborhoods go all NIMBY pitchforks raised over parking with any new project. OKC's need for parking is not unique, and we all know we are just facing a short-term crunch. We need to figure out how to finally complete an area and allow people to at long last rediscover downtown after 20 years of nothing but change. We lose way more average OKC people who are afraid to come down due to the construction than anything else like parking, which is really a non-factor unless you just need something to complain about. There are also people who don't know, want, or seemingly deserve "better" whatever that may be. Theoretically that's why Moore and Yukon exist and we don't need to apologize to anyone that our downtown isn't good at emulating that particular ambiance.


Hoping to add something productive to this thread. The fact that historic buildings will be demolished to create this tower and these garages is saddening to me, but I am personally still Very excited for this develpment.

I have seen a lot of talk about the "twist" and the statement that it does not make the building "more interesting". I 95% agree with that statement, but the building sitting on an angle does something MUCH more important in my opinion. The angle allows every office (or hallway of cubicals) on the East side of the tower to face the Myriad Gardens and possibly even give a view of the convention center and new park south of that.

I state the view of the Myriad Gardens (and new city park) as an important and exciting aspect of this project because of what that view has done for me personally. I grew up in a rural town outside of OKC and never imagined falling in love with downtown OKC. A concrete jungle just wasn't appealing to me.

After interning at Devon for nearly 2 years I can say now that I love downtown OKC. The thing that started that love wasn't the proximity to restaurants, the pedestrian traffic, or street front shops. It was the first time I walked into a lounge that overlooks the Myriad Gardens and blocks of empty lots south of that. The beauty of the Gardens from that view was breathtaking, and I could imagine a park that stretched all the way to skydance bridge. Being able to look at a beautiful park at work and then live within walking distance to that park became very exciting. I lived in Legacy (Avana) apartments for 2 summers and enjoyed having a peaceful green space to get away to. In my opinion, looking one way out your office and seeing a beautiful park, and looking the other and seeing a beautiful elementary school is a moment that could get almost anyone to Consider downtown living. So my point is that there are more factors involved with the "twist" of the building than people seem to be recognizing. Also, the small "plaza" to the east of the building is still substantially smaller than Devon's lawn area where the Giant Christmas ornament sits and I don't see anyone complaining about the pedestrian interaction with that area.

I know there are valid arguments for and against every part of the design, but with it this far along in the process, I am choosing to look at this project as a positive thing.

Since it seems like the parking garages are the only items that aren't going to pass the review committee, I will throw in my 2 cents there.

I agree that the retail space obviously needs to be enlarged. I don't know how big the Devon garage stores are, but I do imagine them leasing out those spaces in the future.

I think that a great use of the parking garage “retail space” across the street from John Rex Elementary would be a Child Care Center. Imagine living downtown, walking your child to school, walking to work, walking back to get your child at the Child Care Center at 5:00, and then walking home with them. The fact that your child could be escorted across the street at 3:00 and picked up around 5:00 would be extremely convenient even if you didn’t live downtown. Also, during the summer months you could bring your children to work with you and walk them to daycare.

I think it would be Fantastic if they could put at least 1 or 2 levels of parking below ground. The Devon garage has 1 level below ground. However, I don't know any of the complexities involved with doing that. Driving up more than 9 stories in a parking garage does feel like driving to the moon, so I understand the height restrictions.

My suggestion would be to build the garage strong enough to support a few levels of apartments on top of it, with a green roof on top of the apartments. This would do several things. It would add residences above a street that could potentially have several retail shops on it, it would add another function to a necessary (but space consuming) downtown structure, and it would set an unpresedented "green building" element for downtown parking garages. In addition to that, the green roof would be much prettier to look at from the North side of the tower than the top of a traditional parking garage would be.

I apologize for butchering the rendering below in ms paint, but I tried my hand at creating a visual of my thoughts.

One last piece of input I wanted to voice is about the skybridge across Hudson. I don't really think it takes away from street interaction. When (or if) the parking garages on both sides of the street get retail shops or restaurants, people will still be able to easily access those. I think the skybridge adds safety and convenience. Crossing Hudson during lunch can not only be dangerous but could potentially inhibit the flow of traffic. Also, since the restaurants at 499 will be on the second floor, if you are going from the Devon tower to 499 for lunch you will have to go up one floor at some point anyways. Floors 1 and 2 of the DEC are open to the public, and it looks like the same will be true for 499.

9802

Your excitement over this project, and positive spin, is appreciated. However it's a long-held and well-studied concept that skybridges are street life killers. Also, I don't think you've really considered any of the things you're excited about. The restaurant on Floor 2 will do what exactly for the street life? As far as shops... you mean the retail spaces that are too far and removed from each other to attract any actual retailers? They'll be phenomenal display cases for corporate banners, though, which really do a lot for the street life.

I'm also not sure what you're point about pedestrians crossing Hudson inhibiting traffic flow. There are wide sidewalks, designated crossings, and it's all bordering our central park. There should be so many pedestrians crossing that traffic IS inhibited. That would be the successful thing to happen to our city, so let's go find a way to make sure that doesn't happen! I love OKC and just think that if we make a few small changes here, this project can do for us now what Devon Tower did for us 3-4 years ago. The changes should be easy enough to make that we can get on about the business of being excited about this, watching it get built, and then enjoying a new addition to our cityscape.

In OKC you will likely never see parking structures fully integrated into the base of a tower. That's reality.

There is a lack of political will to do so in the aftermath of the bombing. This is openly discussed in conversations on this topic locally.

There is a lack of political will to do so in the aftermath of the bombing. This is openly discussed in conversations on this topic locally.

That hadn't occurred to me, but it's quite valid. In the instant case, using quick and dirty math to incorporate all the parking within the tower footprint, it would take 21 stories the same size as the podium to accomodate their stated parking needs. If parking floors are limited to the footprint of the tower proper, 38 stories are required. In either case it's just not feasible and would drastically change the design requirements.

I do think it can work nicely into the lower end of mid-rise, though.

Urbanized retweeted this and I thought it would be pretty relevant here.

Preserving historic buildings risky but still best option | Whatcom Opinion Columns | The Bellingham Herald (http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2014/12/04/4004194_preserving-historic-buildings.html?sp=/99/122/&rh=1)

...Your excitement over this project, and positive spin, is appreciated. However it's a long-held and well-studied concept that skybridges are street life killers. Also, I don't think you've really considered any of the things you're excited about...

I don't think GoDowntownOKC's comments are "spin", I think it's an honest assessment that is in line with how many people feel about a project like this. I have to admit I'm a little mystified by some people's nearly dogmatic dislike of Sky Bridges. You know what kills street life? 20 degree F weather with a 40 knot wind howling out of the north! I've worked downtown OKC over 10 years. My group and I walk all over the place at lunch to different establishments. When the weather is bad, we often are in a sky bridge at some point going to an establishment quite a distance away to spend money as a group in a place we would not have gone to if we had to walk in the cold rain and driving wind. That particular business and others like it benefit from our little treks.

When the weather is nicer, we always walk outside, walking from anywhere to the Museum Cafe, Joey's all the way to Bricktown on foot. Sometimes we track down a food truck and just sit either in the Devon Plaza area, Myriad Gardens or where ever. So from my perspective, the much hated (here anyway) occasional weather related stroll through a Sky Bridge is a convenience. I'd much prefer a nice walk outside, even when it is cold. But, driving cold rain and 0F wind chills will have us not going out for lunch or taking a indoor route if possible to where we want to go. Not long ago we were paused overlooking a street on such a nasty day and saw some guy nailed by truck splashing a puddle of water and someone commented, "I wonder if that was they guy who's always whining about Sky Bridges on OKCTALK?".

People can and will always nitpick, but over all, this project is a big positive for the downtown area. Don't let an obsession with perfection be the enemy of progress. There are a lot of things I would like to see right now, yesterday really in OKC. Parking garages everywhere on this block, I get that distaste. I'd much rather have the ability to hop on a light rail service from Edmond, get off at the Santa Fe station and walk to work. But that option doesn't exist so the parking issue needs to be addressed.

The planned skybridges are particularly a bad problem here because Devon already has a bunch of un-utilized retail space in their garage along Hudson, and there will be more now along Main and Sheridan that they will have to lease out.

I remember when the space was added along Hudson, they said something to the effect that they would put in false fronts "until the area develops". Well, not it's being developed, but in a way that will not add to the street like and thus retail demand.

I fear we are going to have those Devon windows forever and this new retail space may meet the same fate.

All three buildings out my window have onsite parking. The smaller building is hard to see but that bright red light is a parking sign and that's the entrance.

Oklahoma City folks only need to take a quick flight up here to see how to infill in your downtown.

979897999800

I bet they don't have enough on site parking for the entire building. And if I am correct in that assumption. They would not be viable new builds in Okc

Gotta love this comment:



With all these developments, one thing that's common is parking is a much greater concern to the average OKC resident than good urbanism. It's for this reason that not providing enough will kill development downtown. Kerry's suggestion to just not build parking, hoping to force use of mass transit (which doesn't exist yet) would simply not work here.

This is 100% correct. And the other option is the company will simply build off of memorial. Or Hefner parkway. Or Broadway ext.

The planned skybridges are particularly a bad problem here because Devon already has a bunch of un-utilized retail space in their garage along Hudson, and there will be more now along Main and Sheridan that they will have to lease out.

I remember when the space was added along Hudson, they said something to the effect that they would put in false fronts "until the area develops". Well, not it's being developed, but in a way that will not add to the street like and thus retail demand.

I fear we are going to have those Devon windows forever and this new retail space may meet the same fate.

There is a big difference Devon add then window boxes as a concession. To ddrc. They didn't want them and they said ok we will add these so the ability is there in the future to add retail. They never wanted them or intended to use then. As there is not empty space behind them. Only parking space that they would have to remove to add the retail


In this case they are building retail space. I bet that it will be used.

Also don't see how they can not approve the sky bridges and connect to the system that includes them and the underground. This system has continuously been approve over the last 20 years. And is an asset to Okc

I don't think GoDowntownOKC's comments are "spin", I think it's an honest assessment that is in line with how many people feel about a project like this. I have to admit I'm a little mystified by some people's nearly dogmatic dislike of Sky Bridges. You know what kills street life? 20 degree F weather with a 40 knot wind howling out of the north! I've worked downtown OKC over 10 years. My group and I walk all over the place at lunch to different establishments. When the weather is bad, we often are in a sky bridge at some point going to an establishment quite a distance away to spend money as a group in a place we would not have gone to if we had to walk in the cold rain and driving wind. That particular business and others like it benefit from our little treks.

When the weather is nicer, we always walk outside, walking from anywhere to the Museum Cafe, Joey's all the way to Bricktown on foot. Sometimes we track down a food truck and just sit either in the Devon Plaza area, Myriad Gardens or where ever. So from my perspective, the much hated (here anyway) occasional weather related stroll through a Sky Bridge is a convenience. I'd much prefer a nice walk outside, even when it is cold. But, driving cold rain and 0F wind chills will have us not going out for lunch or taking a indoor route if possible to where we want to go. Not long ago we were paused overlooking a street on such a nasty day and saw some guy nailed by truck splashing a puddle of water and someone commented, "I wonder if that was they guy who's always whining about Sky Bridges on OKCTALK?".

People can and will always nitpick, but over all, this project is a big positive for the downtown area. Don't let an obsession with perfection be the enemy of progress. There are a lot of things I would like to see right now, yesterday really in OKC. Parking garages everywhere on this block, I get that distaste. I'd much rather have the ability to hop on a light rail service from Edmond, get off at the Santa Fe station and walk to work. But that option doesn't exist so the parking issue needs to be addressed.

:congrats:

There is a lack of political will to do so in the aftermath of the bombing. This is openly discussed in conversations on this topic locally.

I think the lack of proposals for even limited housing on top of the new Main Street Garage probably also reinforced the idea that developers are not interested like we would want them too. That would have been the easiest and cheapest of all, and in a great location. But no one was interested.

[SIZE=3]Developers are in it to make money. Big money can be made, but also big money can be lost. Cost too much to build a parking garage down, especially with the clay and water table here. The availability of land compared to many other cities is also a factor. I for one am excited, just as it was stated earlier no speculative office building has been built downtown in 30 years. As far a the implied short- sightedness of Larry Nichols, if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have a growing and vibrant downtown. Can you imagine if he would have decided to pack up and go to Houston years ago.
Also, why would Devon want apartments on top of parking garages, they are not in the real estate business. Let Clayco develop this. When the streetcar comes through there will be plenty of areas for retail.

The planned skybridges are particularly a bad problem here because Devon already has a bunch of un-utilized retail space in their garage along Hudson, and there will be more now along Main and Sheridan that they will have to lease out.

I remember when the space was added along Hudson, they said something to the effect that they would put in false fronts "until the area develops". Well, not it's being developed, but in a way that will not add to the street like and thus retail demand.

I fear we are going to have those Devon windows forever and this new retail space may meet the same fate.

Pete,

I respect your opinion and know that you are Very knowledgeable, but I personally don't think that the skybridges in OKC (particularly the one across Hudson) will affect the retail demand in those parking garages in a negative way. I know there have been studies done on skybridges but I haven't been able to find any that relate to a city like OKC with the culture that we have. There have been numerous times when the current skybridge system has allowed me to spend money in Leadership Square or Robinson Renaissance on cold or rainy days. A typical New York-er would probably say something like "who cares if it's cold outside, it's only 3 blocks away". An Oklahoman on the other hand would probably say "Why would I walk 3 blocks in the cold when I could just get something in or near my building?". In my experience, people here don’t just wander the streets until they find something that looks good (especially in inclement weather). They know what’s available and they take the most comfortable route to get there. If there were shops or restaurants in those parking garage spaces, people would see them when driving down the street to work and would walk there on the sidewalks on nice days or take the skybridge system to get as close as possible during cold or inclement weather.

I do understand your point that the skybridge might take some people off the sidewalks but I don’t think it reduces demand for street level retail or restaurants (especially those close to the skybridge system). If people know it’s there and want what’s offered, they should find their way there. But why not make it as convenient as possible?

I also don’t think that we are suddenly a “successful city” if there is so many people trying to cross the street that traffic flow is inhibited. Why not let the people that want to get from the DEC to the 499 restaurant take the skybridge and the people that want to go to the garage retail spaces take the crosswalk? All those people COULD just use the crosswalk, but that doesn’t change the fact that half of them are going to the 499 restaurant and half of them are going to the garage retail.

I think that the way to make shops (or restaurants) survive in the parking garage retail spaces is to curate businesses that there is a real demand for that don’t compete with other nearby businesses.

I don't think GoDowntownOKC's comments are "spin", I think it's an honest assessment that is in line with how many people feel about a project like this. I have to admit I'm a little mystified by some people's nearly dogmatic dislike of Sky Bridges. You know what kills street life? 20 degree F weather with a 40 knot wind howling out of the north! I've worked downtown OKC over 10 years. My group and I walk all over the place at lunch to different establishments. When the weather is bad, we often are in a sky bridge at some point going to an establishment quite a distance away to spend money as a group in a place we would not have gone to if we had to walk in the cold rain and driving wind. That particular business and others like it benefit from our little treks.

When the weather is nicer, we always walk outside, walking from anywhere to the Museum Cafe, Joey's all the way to Bricktown on foot. Sometimes we track down a food truck and just sit either in the Devon Plaza area, Myriad Gardens or where ever. So from my perspective, the much hated (here anyway) occasional weather related stroll through a Sky Bridge is a convenience. I'd much prefer a nice walk outside, even when it is cold. But, driving cold rain and 0F wind chills will have us not going out for lunch or taking a indoor route if possible to where we want to go. Not long ago we were paused overlooking a street on such a nasty day and saw some guy nailed by truck splashing a puddle of water and someone commented, "I wonder if that was they guy who's always whining about Sky Bridges on OKCTALK?".

People can and will always nitpick, but over all, this project is a big positive for the downtown area. Don't let an obsession with perfection be the enemy of progress. There are a lot of things I would like to see right now, yesterday really in OKC. Parking garages everywhere on this block, I get that distaste. I'd much rather have the ability to hop on a light rail service from Edmond, get off at the Santa Fe station and walk to work. But that option doesn't exist so the parking issue needs to be addressed.

My sentiments too, but with a twist. My Thunder tickets come with a parking pass in the Santa Fe garage. When the weather is okay, we park on the west side of the Stage Center site. This saves about 10 minutes each direction for the game. Now when it's a downpour or snow/ice or cold and a howling wind, we park in the garage and take the sky bridges all the way to the Cox Center. Then it's just a dash across Reno. Thank the good lord for the sky bridges.

I don't think GoDowntownOKC's comments are "spin", I think it's an honest assessment that is in line with how many people feel about a project like this. I have to admit I'm a little mystified by some people's nearly dogmatic dislike of Sky Bridges. You know what kills street life? 20 degree F weather with a 40 knot wind howling out of the north! I've worked downtown OKC over 10 years.

Sorry, but weather has no bearing on whether or not a place has active street life. The cold isn't the problem (Northern Europe, for example). The driving wind isn't the problem either (When I lived in Taipei, people would still go out shopping or to restaurants during typhoons). The difference between those places that remain active during the winter/monsoon months and OKC is urban design. Taipei's arterials are lined with arcaded, sidewalk-fronting buildings featuring a contiguous wall of storefronts. This strategy is so successful that people don't mind leaving the protection of home in order to go out and do something when the weather is awful. A consequence of this is that even collectors and neighborhood streets, which aren't protected by arcades, see successful, year-round street life. Their cafes, shops, bars, and restaurants are full of locals who know there will be an umbrella stand just beyond the entryway.

When you have good urban design, you get good urban results. When you design for the office worker to arrive by car, park in a garage, sky walk to and from the office, and leave to the suburbs, you get exactly what you designed for. Weather is a red herring here.

Downtown last night was very active with a lot of street activity, but it wasn't really that cold.

20*F with 40 mph winds would be a different story because Oklahomans aren't used to that kind of weather. In Chicago that is likely a typical winter day so it's not that big of a deal to them. Weather does play a part in street activity, though it's only a part of the equation.

...When you have good urban design, you get good urban results. When you design for the office worker to arrive by car, park in a garage, sky walk to and from the office, and leave to the suburbs, you get exactly what you designed for. Weather is a red herring here.

100% agree.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/9851d1419097538-499-sheridan-hinesnow9.jpg

Well this is what we get in exchange for those historic Art Deco buildings. Pickard Chilton should make this rendering their website's home page banner.

Jane Jacobs was right | Better! Cities & Towns Online (http://bettercities.net/news-opinion/blogs/robert-steuteville/21383/jane-jacobs-was-right)

The idea that cold weather dictates street life seems to make intuitive sense, but it just doesn't really hold up in the real world.

All you have to do is look at the 4 biggest cities in the US: New York, LA, Chicago, and Houston.

Now, New York is pretty obvious. It's one of the most urban cities in the world and certainly the most urban in the United States. The average high in the winter months is around 40 degrees. Average lows are at freezing. I have been to New York when it was freezing and snowing and when it was 60 and sunny. There's no noticeable difference in street life. The park was less busy when it was cold, but because of the way New York city is built, there is no way not to interact with the urban landscape every single day, no matter what the weather is, so it's more the way the city was developed than it's weather that dictate its street life.

LA's lowest average monthly low is 48 degrees with monthly highs never dipping below about 68. It more or less exists because of its great weather, yet there is a song about how no ever walks there. Granted this has changed a lot in the past 20 years or so and there are now pockets of urban life to be found. However, this is not because the weather somehow got better. It's because parts of LA began to be developed in a way that encourages street life and urban activity.

Chicago's urban center is much like New York, except that its winters are even colder and much longer. It certainly has some days where abundant snow falls can temper street activity (mainly because you just can't walk on them), but it's prepared for this and the street life is back in abundance soon after the storms pass. This is because Chicago is dependent on its urban landscape to be functioning. The funny thing is that Chicago probably didn't have to be this way. It could have developed more like LA where it just has one water barrier on one side. In fact, it was kind of an engineering bitch to do with its swampy land and flood prone river. But, that's what the market wanted and so it developed into one of the biggest urban centers in the US with some of its best street life.

Houston I know less about, but it's lowest monthly average low is 41 degrees in January. It certainly can get hot and the humidity can be awful, but its reputation for being one of the most sprawling cities in the US is certainly not due to harsh winter weather. This is because of the way it was developed. Like LA, I think Houston has also managed to offer some urban living these days as more people demand it. I'd love to know about how they've done it, but I am willing to guess that their successful urban revitalization districts are not 50% land use for parking garages and skywalk connected towers. Maybe someone who knows more about it can post their examples of urban restoration.

Now, we know that Oklahoma's weather is very volatile, but when compared to two of the largest and most urban cities in the country, our average highs in the winter months are about 10 degrees higher than New York's and about 20 degrees higher than Chicago's and our average snowfall is 17 inches less and 28 inches less respectively. So, arguing that Oklahoma City's weather requires the use of elements that compromise street life or other urban qualities seems specious at best. Some Cities with much harsher winters actually serve as epitomes for urban development and living.

It's more than just hot or cold weather, as we have the occasional thunderstorm that keeps people inside as much as possible too.

It's more than just hot or cold weather, as we have the occasional thunderstorm that keeps people inside as much as possible too.

And they don't? They have 17+ more inches of so than us every year, too.

This convo kind of shows what I have always thought to myself. Many Oklahomans simply dont dress prepared for the weather of the moment. That winter wind isnt that bad with a scarf or a stocking cap. Rain isnt much of a nuisance with, you know, rain coats or an umbrella. Maybe these are things that are too troublesome for Okies to possess and use...I dont know.

To be fair, New York or Chicago thunderstorms don't usually have golfball+ sized hail with them. However, they come seldom enough even here that I doubt they have a lot of impact on street life.

I think more than anything, what impedes street life here is culture. I was hanging with some friends the other night and they had parked in the Devon parking garage to go to the Myriad Gardens. Afterwards they wanted to go to Bricktown to eat but instead of walking there, they insisted on going back to their car and then driving to Bricktown, of course parking as close to the restaurant as they could. I suggested walking and they looked at me like I was crazy. That mindset is still pretty prevalent here and in my opinion is one of the largest impediments to street life. Even good urbanism wouldn't have mattered in this case. There are numerous other cities with Skywalks that still have great street life. People will take the Skywalk when the weather is bad but they will still go outside when it is nice because most people would rather be outside enjoying the fresh air.

This convo kind of shows what I have always thought to myself. Many Oklahomans simply dont dress prepared for the weather of the moment. That winter wind isnt that bad with a scarf or a stocking cap. Rain isnt much of a nuisance with, you know, rain coats or an umbrella. Maybe these are things that are too troublesome for Okies to possess and use...I dont know.
They don't need to wear them or bring them...because they are either in their cars or inside (dropped off near the front door). It's a bit of a chicken-or-egg situation, but honestly it is the lifestyle that dictates the preparedness (or lack thereof), rather than the other way around.

And they don't? They have 17+ more inches of so than us every year, too.

What about skirt alerts ? None of the 4 cities listed have the obnoxious winds that we have in OKC ?

What about skirt alerts ? None of the 4 cities listed have the obnoxious winds that we have in OKC ?

New York's average wind speed is the same as Oklahoma City's:


According to the National Climatic Data Center's list of annual average wind speeds, the windiest U.S. city is Dodge City, Kansas, with an average speed of 13.9 mph. Other windy cities include Amarillo, Texas (13.5 mph) and Rochester, Minn. (13.1 mph.). The windiest "big" cities are New York City (LaGuardia Airport) and Oklahoma City, which both have an average annual wind speed of 12.2 mph.

(funny that they put 'big' in quotation marks)

USATODAY.com (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/archive-windy-city.htm)

i think more than anything, what impedes street life here is culture.

ding!

Thing is though, that with proper development techniques, that culture can change in some areas. LA and Houston are good examples. I know LA has very urban areas and it's actually hard to notice the parking garages when you're in them. The funny thing is that if it weren't so easy to park in one garage for the MBG and another in bricktown, you and your friends would have walked by default. In some ways it's too easy to park here.

And really, I understand some people not wanting to hang out in some of our weather. But that shouldn't mean that we are incapable of having one urban area in the city and downtown seems the most logical part of the city to do that. So, I don't think it's too much to want or ask that this little 2 square mile area out 600+ square miles be done in an urban way. There is still miles and miles of area to build on where, if you want an isolated development, you can have one and no one would care.

I think it has less to do with weather and more to do with what people are used to. In NYC, Chicago or any other city with reliable mass transit, people use cars less, walk more and interact more. Oklahoma, as a whole. is built around the automobile so much so that a person will wait 2-3 minutes for a parking spot five spots away from the front of the store when they could have parked ten spots away and walked in by then. I know it is not the most reliable source on the face of the planet, but look at the comments on newsok.com articles when a story about anything to do with density and nine times out of 10, someone will ask where everyone will park. My cousin worked DT at Leadersjip square for 15 years and was appalled that he had to pay for parking if he wanted a descent space in BT for a baseball game. We are so used to parking right in front of our destination, walking in and walking right out that we can't fathom the idea of parking more than a block away, walking around and walking back to our car. One of my coworkers complained that she had to park on NW 17th street and walk a block to Pie Junkie and walk back. I believe this is a lot of the standard way of thinking in OKC, sadly. Hoepfully it will change with the streetcar and an improved transit system in the area.

Oklahoma, as a whole. is built around the automobile

This probably has more to do with it than anything. Oklahoma City was developed with an urban core at first, but as the car took over, that concept was abandoned and that now informs our culture. LA and Houston petty much did the same thing.

The aforementioned "culture" is simply a product of the built environment. Look at early photos of OKC through the early 60s. Downtown was CRAWLING with people. We all like to think that we are masters of our own tastes, wants and desires, but they are almost exclusively a result of our environment. And in Oklahoma City, the built environment and associated visual cues generally say "why in the hell would you bother getting out of your car for THIS?"

The aforementioned "culture" is simply a product of the built environment. Look at early photos of OKC through the early 60s. Downtown was CRAWLING with people. We all like to think that we are masters of our own tastes, wants and desires, but they are almost exclusively a result of our environment. And in Oklahoma City, the built environment and associated visual cues generally say "why in the hell would you bother getting out of your car for THIS?"

Maybe in the past OKC just wasn't as cold, hot, or windy as it is now. Either that or some of the people living in OKC just aren't as manly as their fathers were.

The aforementioned "culture" is simply a product of the built environment. Look at early photos of OKC through the early 60s. Downtown was CRAWLING with people. We all like to think that we are masters of our own tastes, wants and desires, but they are almost exclusively a result of our environment. And in Oklahoma City, the built environment and associated visual cues generally say "why in the hell would you bother getting out of your car for THIS?"

Agree!

Hate to excavate a 'turd' from the grave; however wasn't it I.M Pei that almost cried when he discovered that Oklahoma City had built the metro street tunnel concourse, the tunnels he attributed to 'killing the vibrant street life.'

This convo kind of shows what I have always thought to myself. Many Oklahomans simply dont dress prepared for the weather of the moment. That winter wind isnt that bad with a scarf or a stocking cap. Rain isnt much of a nuisance with, you know, rain coats or an umbrella. Maybe these are things that are too troublesome for Okies to possess and use...I dont know.

I was actually surprised how little it took clothing wise it took to be comfortable in Oklahoma winters for long periods when I got into hiking/mountain climbing (granted the Wichita mountains are not exactly the tallest mountains).

When most people just have walks that last less than a minute between their home to car, then car to destination and then the reverse; they barely need more than something to block the wind, is easy to put on and take off.

Is it just me or does this garage look like the crappy concrete facade Kerr McGee put over the original facade of the India Temple Building?

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/9847d1419097535-499-sheridan-hinesnow13.jpg
http://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9885&stc=1

This is Colorado Tower in Austin, 30 stories tall, in which the office space rests atop a 13 story parking garage. Pickard/Hines could easily do something like this for 499 Sheridan:

http://www.dudapaine.com/images/coloradotower_09.jpg

Seems like a good way to maximize the tight space on that block. That would leave one parking garage left for like the general public, which I wouldn't mind the Carpenter Square becoming one as long as they kept the original exterior somehow. Tower parking could be for employees working in the building?

This is Colorado Tower in Austin, 30 stories tall, in which the office space rests atop a 13 story parking garage. Pickard/Hines could easily do something like this for 499 Sheridan:

http://www.dudapaine.com/images/coloradotower_09.jpg

Now that is sexy and far and away better than 499.

G. Walker, you made my heart melt for a moment there.

Looks like Coney Island will survive. WHEW! I love that place! (really! twice a year!)

Preftakes doesn't own Coney Island. The old guy who runs the place does.

Preftakes doesn't own Coney Island. The old guy who runs the place does.

Thank goodness, otherwise we'd probably have seen it torn down as well as the place Preftakes owns next to it.

Surprised this wasn't posted last night.

Downtown Oklahoma City development forces balance of progress and past | News OK (http://newsok.com/downtown-oklahoma-city-development-forces-balance-of-progress-and-past/article/5378384)

Very strange that there is little/no opposition to these demolitions from Preservation Oklahoma or the media.

Also, this is a ridiculous statement. There are still tons of surface lots and non-historic small buildings all over downtown, not to mention plenty of buildings that could easily be renovated or upgraded.


A quarter century ago, downtown was dead. It’s not just revived now — it is growing and is at capacity to accommodate more growth.

The "media", meaning people who report these things to the public, probably don't know anything about the Hotel Black or the other buildings. Everyone is too busy with the Holiday season. Aren't there threads on here for all the targeted buildings?

Is it just me or does this garage look like the crappy concrete facade Kerr McGee put over the original facade of the India Temple Building?[/IMG]

It's not just you. This is very much a trade for a style of architecture and development philosophy that we probably won't see again, and is less and less represented in the city's architectural portfolio, for turn key value engineered parking garages.

The thing that strikes me is that throughout the discussion of the fate of this block the last few years many pointed to the importance of this block's location. That no matter what the availability of underdeveloped or undeveloped property that may be left in downtown, this block needed to be converted to a "higher use". But now were being told that it's not even a viable block unless over 50% of it is parking. Basically, parking garages are the higher use this block demands. I am no real estate expert, like Pete, but it seems to me that if a piece of ground is one of the most important in a community, that would demand that it be developed in a way where it's potential return is fully realized. If the only way to do that is convert most of it to parking, how can that be reconciled with the idea that it's one of the most important blocks of real estate in the city? They're either leaving a boat load of potential revenue on the table, or it really isn't that valuable of a block.

Very strange that there is little/no opposition to these demolitions from Preservation Oklahoma or the media.


I don't know about that...I'm seeing a lot of info being posted on their FB page about saving them.

https://www.facebook.com/preservationok/posts/10152589832280745:0

This is Colorado Tower in Austin, 30 stories tall, in which the office space rests atop a 13 story parking garage. Pickard/Hines could easily do something like this for 499 Sheridan:

http://www.dudapaine.com/images/coloradotower_09.jpg

Even if they kept everything else the same and just put the parking underneath the tower like this, it'd be about 40 stories tall. But I think the biggest boon to the investors would be that they would still have more than half of the property they invested in left for development. I don't know how much more money it would cost to do this, but if I were a principle investor in what has been called one of the most important blocks in the city, I would be salivating over that scenario.

Thank goodness, otherwise we'd probably have seen it torn down as well as the place Preftakes owns next to it.

AND we wouldn't have had Coney Island for the last few years, as they would have been forced out to establish the property as functionally obsolete.