Will be very, very nice to have another tall building downtown, especially one that will be nicely illuminated.

I agree. Additionally, it's nice to see the skyline expand out West. It will give the overall look from the South and I-40 a broader range.

I'm excited. I don't care if it's a glass box.

With you, bro!

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Ma2a7a809753c887feb788b98fda072a7o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300 https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M0ee45149a5f9967e533570bca83bb5f5o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
Morning glow box?

That glass glow box will illuminate the skyline. Should help project the spotlight when a real quality skyscraper is built. :D

I'm not. Not for what we lost. There are far too many surface lots and sh!tty parking garages that could have been torn down instead of tearing down historic buildings to justify a glass box. Not only that, but it adds insult to injury since they could have even built this glass on the same block with all of the other historic buildings and we would have gotten a taller tower AND they still could have built their skybridge.

They are cheap asses and/or don't care. Plain and simple.

Easy PluPan

From this morning.

Tower crane being assembled in the lower left corner, NE parking garage already taking shape.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/499112415.jpg

I guess the massive counterweight was needed on that one crane because they will be lifting large pre-stressed concrete panels and deck into place rather than lighter pieces of steel and random smaller building materials.

I'm not. Not for what we lost. There are far too many surface lots and sh!tty parking garages that could have been torn down instead of tearing down historic buildings to justify a glass box. Not only that, but it adds insult to injury since they could have even built this glass on the same block with all of the other historic buildings and we would have gotten a taller tower AND they still could have built their skybridge.

They are cheap asses and/or don't care. Plain and simple.

PluPan speaking the truth!

I guess the massive counterweight was needed on that one crane because they will be lifting large pre-stressed concrete panels and deck into place rather than lighter pieces of steel and random smaller building materials.

Driving under that crane along Main is more than a little harrowing.

I'm not. Not for what we lost. There are far too many surface lots and sh!tty parking garages that could have been torn down instead of tearing down historic buildings to justify a glass box. Not only that, but it adds insult to injury since they could have even built this glass on the same block with all of the other historic buildings and we would have gotten a taller tower AND they still could have built their skybridge.

They are cheap asses and/or don't care. Plain and simple.
When it's your money on the line, you can choose to do it "the right way."

When it's your money on the line, you can choose to do it "the right way."Does that apply to other developers in major cities? Because why are those developments done the right way. So if I have the money, I can just go in, tear down what I want, and build a building with a sh!tty site plan that isn't within building codes?

When it's your money on the line, you can choose to do it "the right way."

As always, that argument is bull. We have building codes, zoning restrictions, and design review boards specifically to let the people whose money it isn't have input in the process and control it as needed.

Does that apply to other developers in major cities? Because why are those developments done the right way. So if I have the money, I can just go in, tear down what I want, and build a building with a sh!tty site plan that isn't within building codes?

Yeah. It's called property rights. I don't know about other cities but this city is the 2nd most conservative city in the country. A staple of conservative belief is the government doesn't get to tell someone what they can and can't do with their land as log as what they are doing is legal. Conservatives will generally favor less building codes, zoning, and hoops, not more. Obviously you need some codes, zoning, etc, but in general okc will be less restrictive then a Seattle or a San Francisco.

Don't get all angry and go off on a lecture about urbanism and all that, spare me. The cold hard fact is most people in the city will be on the side that the people/corporations should be allowed to do what they want with their land. That's the culture and belief system here. Might change as time goes on and it might not. You can always boycott BOK if you're that upset about it.

Yeah. It's called property rights. I don't know about other cities but this city is the 2nd most conservative city in the country. A staple of conservative belief is the government doesn't get to tell someone what they can and can't do with their land as log as what they are doing is legal. Conservatives will generally favor less building codes, zoning, and hoops, not more. Obviously you need some codes combining and the like, but in general okc will be less restrictive then a Seattle or a San Francisco.

Don't get all angry and go off on a lecture about urbanism and all that but spare me. The cold hard fact is most people in the city will be on the side that the people/corporations should be allowed to do what they want with their land. That's the culture and belief system here. Might change as time goes on and it might not. You can always boycott BOK if you're that upset about it.Yeah, I'm probably one of the least pro-urban posters on this site. I prefer highways and suburbs over 'walkability.' But I think in this instance, this is just dumb.

What is even more perplexing to me is how people are justifying this. I would completely understand this if there were hardly any vacant surface or grass lots, but there is literally like 5 within a block or two from this site. Not only that, but there was a surface lot on this very block that they could have worked the building AND garage into. Not only that, but they could have made more money in the long run renovating the hotel and other buildings into hotels, living units, more office space, restaurants, etc. It would literally be a win-win for everyone. More density, higher property values. More taxes for the city per block. I mean the benefits go on and on here.

It's not the sheer fact alone the we lost these buildings, it's the fact that they could have easily been saved, the fact that they could have built there huge parking garages on one of the 100 vacant grass or surface lots around the area. But like a lot developments around here, they go in and raze it to the ground. It is even the same thing with suburban developers and trees. Come in, raze everything to the ground, and start new. New trees, new homes, out with the old, in with the new. I don't know whether it's just lack of vision or simply being a cheapo. Anyhow, seeing as how a poster on this website took like 5 minutes to draw up a site plan on Microsoft Paint, I'm betting it's the latter.

As for BOK, I'm not upset with them. It's just irritating how this could have been one of the coolest developments in recent history. Think about a boutique hotel, 100 or so new living units, 5-10 new restaurants inside all of these renovated, historic buildings that have tons of character, with a bus station that was transformed into a 24hr Diner concept, right next to a 9 story parking garage with retail on the bottom, underneath a 27 story office building that came out to be 37 stories. Instead, we're getting 27 story office building with huge parking garages and a bus station sign as a tribute to once was. Not trying to be negative and this will great from the highway, but the closer you get to it the less appealing it will be.

Yeah so if you wanna see change, gtfo of here. That's the way we do things and there is nothing that you can say to stop us. Quit whining and move on.

Edit: I know it's hard to get sarcasm here, but this post is just that. Mostly making fun of the ridiculous notion that if you don't agree with the way things are done, you should just get over it.

Yeah so if you wanna see change, gtfo of here. That's the way we do things and there is nothing that you can say to stop us. Quit whining and move on.

Edit: I know it's hard to get sarcasm here, but this post is just that. Mostly making fun of the ridiculous notion that if you don't agree with the way things are done, you should just get over it.Yeah :p I read that at first and thought you were serious then went back and read it and realized it was sarcasm.

Yeah, I'm probably one of the least pro-urban posters on this site. I prefer highways and suburbs over 'walkability.' But I think in this instance, this is just dumb.

What is even more perplexing to me is how people are justifying this. I would completely understand this if there were hardly any vacant surface or grass lots, but there is literally like 5 within a block or two from this site. Not only that, but there was a surface lot on this very block that they could have worked the building AND garage into. Not only that, but they could have made more money in the long run renovating the hotel and other buildings into hotels, living units, more office space, restaurants, etc. It would literally be a win-win for everyone. More density, higher property values. More taxes for the city per block. I mean the benefits go on and on here.

It's not the sheer fact alone the we lost these buildings, it's the fact that they could have easily been saved, the fact that they could have built there huge parking garages on one of the 100 vacant grass or surface lots around the area. But like a lot developments around here, they go in and raze it to the ground. It is even the same thing with suburban developers and trees. Come in, raze everything to the ground, and start new. New trees, new homes, out with the old, in with the new. I don't know whether it's just lack of vision or simply being a cheapo. Anyhow, seeing as how a poster on this website took like 5 minutes to draw up a site plan on Microsoft Paint, I'm betting it's the latter.

As for BOK, I'm not upset with them. It's just irritating how this could have been one of the coolest developments in recent history. Think about a boutique hotel, 100 or so new living units, 5-10 new restaurants inside all of these renovated, historic buildings that have tons of character, with a bus station that was transformed into a 24hr Diner concept, right next to a 9 story parking garage with retail on the bottom, underneath a 27 story office building that came out to be 37 stories. Instead, we're getting 27 story office building with huge parking garages and a bus station sign as a tribute to once was. Not trying to be negative and this will great from the highway, but the closer you get to it the less appealing it will be.

BOK is a bank. In the banking industry. They have no interest in doing that. They wanted to build a tower and offer close easy parking for their employees. It's an individualistic versus collectivist mindset. The United States, red states in particular, have a very individualistic mindset. BOK is going to look out for BOK first and foremost. The few who cared in the city (seriously, if you polled the city maybe 25% even know about the building, even less then that care about the bus station) argued their point and BOK said meh.

BOK is a bank. In the banking industry. They have no interest in doing that. They wanted to build a tower and offer close easy parking for their employees. It's an individualistic versus collectivist mindset. The United States, red states in particular, have a very individualistic mindset. BOK is going to look out for BOK first and foremost. The few who cared in the city (seriously, if you polled the city maybe 25% even know about the building, even less then that care about the bus station) argued their point and BOK said meh.Isn't BOK owned by George Kaiser? This isn't Tulsa, but he cares greatly about Tulsa.

Also, I could be wrong, but BOK is only operating out of the lobby. The rest of the building is spec space for Devon.

Yeah so if you wanna see change, gtfo of here. That's the way we do things and there is nothing that you can say to stop us. Quit whining and move on.

Edit: I know it's hard to get sarcasm here, but this post is just that. Mostly making fun of the ridiculous notion that if you don't agree with the way things are done, you should just get over it.

This isn't sarcasm

If you want to see immediate change GTFO of here. The entire culture and lifestyle of Oklahoma City is going to take at least a decade maybe 2 to change, if it even changes. There's no guarantee the urban okc dream even succeeds, so many things could derail it.

It might change one day, but its going to be at the pace of molasses. People should have known they were going to lose this right from the start. BOK took 0 public money and the 2 tenants are 2 of the largest corporations in Oklahoma. There is 0 way they weren't going to get exactly what they wanted. That could be different in 2020, 2025, 2030 but it is still 2015 and that's the way it works right now.

Sorry I'm a realist.

Isn't BOK owned by George Kaiser? This isn't Tulsa, but he cares greatly about Tulsa.

Also, I could be wrong, but BOK is only operating out of the lobby. The rest of the building is spec space for Devon.
No I believe they are consolidating all of their OKC operations into the tower.

I imagine the Chairman of BOK cares a lot about his 400 foot tower in OKC. He also owns part of the Thunder. He is most definitely a Tulsa guy but he absolutely cares about the OKC operations.

Devon and BOK had a pretty specific plan of what they wanted, and they we not going to be denied.

Isn't BOK owned by George Kaiser? This isn't Tulsa, but he cares greatly about Tulsa.

Also, I could be wrong, but BOK is only operating out of the lobby. The rest of the building is spec space for Devon.

BOK has the top 5 or 6 floors along with the lobby. Devon has the rest.

Just to be clear, BOK is a tenant in this building, and their tenancy includes the right to put their name on the building. BOK is NOT the developer nor are they driving the build.

Plutonic Panda, what has been done can not be undone no matter how or what many of us feel about it. Definitely understand your disappointment--we all share in that; many of us envisioned & hoped for bigger, taller and better quality.

The development is in progress; there will be more to come... My biggest disappointment at this point is the OG&E development. Of course they still could come up with one quality tower (finger crossed). If it helps you to heal my friend; then, sound off, get it out of your system.

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M34c8e8ee3328ea0c0f9496ac130def18o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=331&h=187
We still have potential for an OG&E tower, large conference hotel & a future office and/or mixed use development tower...
https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M8274213baf6e4afec3b01843701b7508H0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
Peace!

I would much rather see something like this

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t34.0-12/12274366_10206787960130116_6942420278884219262_n.j pg?oh=d59dbd47a9cddfc3c49a76d046b04898&oe=56577731

than this

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/9869d1419097551-499-sheridan-hinesnewest15.jpg

Yeah unfortunately, as disappointing as all this is, the old buildings are gone and there is no way to bring them back. It's mindblowing to think about what could have been on that block and the opportunity that was squandered. That said, I am looking forward to the new addition in the skyline.

I hope the OG&E Tower ends up being decent, though I am not liking what I am hearing as of late about it being scaled down. Even if it ends up shorter, hopefully they use the same architecture in the original Clayco rendering and don't just do a glass box. If they want to do apartments as well, I don't understand why they don't just do one tower fronting the park and make it 35 stories and mixed use, with OG&E taking the first 20 and then 15 stories of residential above that.

I would much rather see something like this

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t34.0-12/12274366_10206787960130116_6942420278884219262_n.j pg?oh=d59dbd47a9cddfc3c49a76d046b04898&oe=56577731

than this

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/9869d1419097551-499-sheridan-hinesnewest15.jpg


I agree with you. I do.

But think about how cool the skyline is going to look! *sarcasm*

I agree with you. I do.

But think about how cool the skyline is going to look! *sarcasm*Yeah. I love tall buildings, but I honestly would be happier if even the building was only to be 25 stories with the parking garage and the rest saved.

Okay we get it. Stop derailing threads for your own personal agenda. The show is on the road by a ticket or stay home.

This isn't sarcasm

If you want to see immediate change GTFO of here. The entire culture and lifestyle of Oklahoma City is going to take at least a decade maybe 2 to change, if it even changes.

I think entire culture is key (and, really, no city's entire culture is homogeneous, nor should it be). Some of OKC's culture has changed significantly, at least in terms of being more urban and less apathetic towards developmental practices. It's just that it's not happening in the CBD, or at least it's not being applied to new construction there.

I agree with you. I do.

But think about how cool the skyline is going to look! *sarcasm*

Actually, at night with the crown lit up, which is equivalent to about 3 floors, it will be impressive.

Actually, at night with the crown lit up, which is equivalent to about 3 floors, it will be impressive.

I agree.

OKC's skyline at night needs some work especially since the Chase Tower and Sandridge Tower are no longer lit. I miss the well-lit skyline from a couple of years ago when I am downtown. It gives the impression of a more vibrant city. Maybe it's just me, but having a new, well-illuminated tower will be very welcome.

I agree.

OKC's skyline at night needs some work especially since the Chase Tower and Sandridge Tower are no longer lit. I miss the well-lit skyline from a couple of years ago when I am downtown. It gives the impression of a more vibrant city. Maybe it's just me, but having a new, well-illuminated tower will be very welcome.

I agree 100%. Light it up! Just wish this tower was about 10-15 stories taller so it would add something to the skyline. Going to look pretty small next to Devon.

It will look like the Oklahoma Tower...slightly shorter.

1 ft. shorter or 3 ft. shorter? Originally 433 ft. tall

Yeah. It's called property rights. I don't know about other cities but this city is the 2nd most conservative city in the country. A staple of conservative belief is the government doesn't get to tell someone what they can and can't do with their land as log as what they are doing is legal. Conservatives will generally favor less building codes, zoning, and hoops, not more. Obviously you need some codes, zoning, etc, but in general okc will be less restrictive then a Seattle or a San Francisco.

If you really believed this you would be a New Urbanist. New Urbanism and the Smart Code IS the free market option. What you advocate on a regular basis is massive government subsidies masquerading as individuality.

Jeez, somebody get Panda a box of tissues so he can dry all those tears.

Jeez, somebody get Panda a box of tissues so he can dry all those tears.
It's all good man. I just hate to think of what could have been. But you are right, I need to let it go.

Went by last night and Hudson was closed and it looked like they are finally ready to erect the tower crane.

FYI...

http://i.imgur.com/dTSHCNY.webm


http://i.imgur.com/dTSHCNY.webm

It's all good man. I just hate to think of what could have been. But you are right, I need to let it go.
I shed a a tear over both of those buildings and what could have been done too, but it's like me going bald.... Not much can be done now.

I shed a a tear over both of those buildings too, but it's like me going bald.... Not much can be done now.


Agree, what has been done can not be undone...

You can now see the tower crane and garage crane on the skyline; good indicator of how the tower will extend the skyline.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/skyline120315.jpg

What a great view Pete !

Finally went by the site today. Must say that I am disappointed in the height, I guess 430ft. seemed more in my head. Seeing the cranes really helps visualize the building's height.

Finally went by the site today. Must say that I am disappointed in the height, I guess 430ft. seemed more in my head. Seeing the cranes really helps visualize the building's height.

??

Are you basing that off the height of the cranes?

One is for the garage but the tower crane will be raised in sections as the building structure rises.

^ It'll be virtually the same height as Oklahoma Tower, which Pete's picture helps to visualize.

Finally went by the site today. Must say that I am disappointed in the height, I guess 430ft. seemed more in my head. Seeing the cranes really helps visualize the building's height.I believe the cranes are going to grow.

It will be almost exactly half the height of Devon.

Damn, okay that makes sense. I mistakenly figured they had the cranes at their final height. I knew 400+ft looked a little small lol.

^ It'll be virtually the same height as Oklahoma Tower, which Pete's picture helps to visualize.

Right.

And from the angle I posted, BOK will be closer to the camera and thus look taller than anything other than Devon. Will really help to balance and elongate the skyline.

This isn't exact, but from the information given on the thread I made something that might give you an idea of skyline scale.

11883

This isn't exact, but from the information given on the thread I made something that might give you an idea of skyline scale.

11883

Nice Berto.

And to add, we should see a nice section of the OGE Tower as well because it will sit directly South of this building, so Pete should be able to have a view of both new towers. And it really does help the skyline immensely.

What's the over/under on that tower even starting before this one finishes?

With whatever gets built on the OGE property to the south, the skyline will look even better from that view.

What's the over/under on that tower even starting before this one finishes?

You'll probably see all of these projects in some stage of development. The BOK Park Plaza Tower, OG&E Tower & CC conference hotel should change the skyline immensely.

Wouldn't be surprised to see more hotels sprout up around the new convention center along with some office-residential (mix-use) development towers in that vicinity.

I also am expecting the same, with regard to more hotel towers near the CC site/central park. Also, don't forget the likelihood for highrises at the Ford REICO sites and HOPEFULLY a highrise or two at the 4th and Gaylord triangle. Just too bad things are moving slowly. ....

I also am expecting the same, with regard to more hotel towers near the CC site/central park. Also, don't forget the likelihood for highrises at the Ford REICO sites and HOPEFULLY a highrise or two at the 4th and Gaylord triangle. Just too bad things are moving slowly. ....

You're right. We've run out of new developments to start criticizing as soon as they are announced. :D

Briana Bailey in her chat this morning mentioned that low oil prices could call this development as well as OG&E Energy Center into question. Please say it isn't so.

Briana Bailey in her chat this morning mentioned that low oil prices could call this development as well as OG&E Energy Center into question. Please say it isn't so.

That isn't even close to what she said. Really, you need to stop posting things as fact that are way, way off base. You make the entire site look bad when you do things like this.


This is directly from the transcript:


1:47 AM What restaurants and/or retail can we expect in the new BOK Tower? Same question for the OG&E tower(s) (if they are ever built).

Brianna Bailey11:51 AM I think the state of energy prices has definitely cast some a few questions on the timeline of these projects. I think if and when we do see them built, we'll see more lunch-type restaurants, maybe a few nicer restaurants, a few coffee shops. More of the same basically.


BTW, to answer this question that was asked in that chat, I happen to know they are far along with a new to market restaurant for BOK Park Plaza.

And we are probably 2 full years from OG&E Energy Center opening for business, so the economy today isn't highly relevant. AND, as I've said before, I'm not aware of a single project that has been shelved or even significantly delayed due to energy prices.

People need to stop repeating that as fact without providing specific facts.

Any delays with the OG&E project have everything to do with unrealistic expectations of public incentives and then trying to find a compromise from there. At the very same time, the BOK Park Plaza project is raging forward, with a big energy company as its primary tenant.

People -- especially the local media -- need to stop banging this 'sky is falling' drum over oil prices. That is their opinion and becomes a somewhat self-fulfilling policy when that is continually communicated to a wide audience who accepts those views as facts, even though zero evidence is provided.

And in general, it's incredibly irresponsible and works against the local economy.

Briana Bailey in her chat this morning mentioned that low oil prices could call this development as well as OG&E Energy Center into question. Please say it isn't so.


That isn't even close to what she said. Really, you need to stop posting things as fact that are way, way off base. You make the entire site look bad when you do things like this.


This is directly from the transcript:

BTW, to answer this question that was asked in that chat, I happen to know they are far along with a new to market restaurant for BOK Park Plaza.

And we are probably 2 full years from OG&E Energy Center opening for business, so the economy today isn't highly relevant. AND, as I've said before, I'm not aware of a single project that has been shelved or even significantly delayed due to energy prices.

People need to stop repeating that as fact without providing specific facts.

Any delays with the OG&E project have everything to do with unrealistic expectations of public incentives and then trying to find a compromise from there. At the very same time, the BOK Park Plaza project is raging forward, with a big energy company as its primary tenant.

People -- especially the local media -- need to stop banging this 'sky is falling' drum over oil prices. That is their opinion and becomes a somewhat self-fulfilling policy when that is continually communicated to a wide audience who accepts those views as facts, even though zero evidence is provided.

And in general, it's incredibly irresponsible and works against the local economy.

Couple things:

Playing neutral spectator, bchris' statement isn't that untrue. She was asked specifically about BOK, OGE, etc. and she simply answered in regard to all of them as projects. So, it's easy to understand how someone, when you read both the question and answer, that BOK was included. But... I don't see where in that quote oil prices were included, so that's where I'll stop.

HOWEVER, I'm not sure how many times Pete has to state that this is already financed and is moving along regardless of current climate. The financials for this project have long been approved and it's going to keep on.

^

She was responding about the retail / restaurants in those projects.


Anyway, this is starting to be a real hot button with me.

The Oklahoman in general keeps implying that oil prices are hurting commercial development and they never give any examples because I simply don't think there are any.

And to the extent someone like Clayco/OG&E tries to use that excuse (can already see this coming) then the duty of a reporter is to delve deeper and provide the context that when the OG&E project was first proposed energy prices were still healthy and they still couldn't come close to getting the deal financed without an absurd amount of tax dollars.

Frankly, these reporters let their relationships with developers and people who grant them interviews drive way too much of their reporting and opinions. Those who struggle are always, always going to blame outside forces, and now energy prices are the easy scapegoat.

Just because someone in the business community goes on record with a reporter does not make it fact. More often than not, they have their own agenda... Just like when TEEMCO got the Oklahoman to publish the blame for their problems was low oil prices, when in fact the huge amount of their problems began (which I documented in great detail with links to many court cases) when oil was sky high.

What I don't want to see happen is this "low energy prices are killing commercial development" mantra become generally accepted then feeds off itself and becomes a real problem when there wasn't one before.


Especially since moving back, I talk to developers in person all the time and almost all of them say that the lending market is very strong right now and they only thing that gets in the way of their projects is the competition with other developers for the same property, and then having to pay such high prices that there is little margin for error and even thin profits. Those things are signs of a *good* economy and not the opposite!