At least the fence posts have character :-P

Oh, some of the people running the city are characters, too.

I don't understand someone who comes into this thread to tell Internet people that they can't feel bad that this bad development is finally happening. That we are finally loosing what was such a great, in-tact historic block.

It would seem pretty obvious that a lot of people in OKC are going to express consternation at what is happening to our downtown. Based on the 1970s urban renewal era, I would expect a similar outraged sentiment at the misguided un-development that is changing the face of OKC.

In case it hasn't been stated....Implosion of the Black Hotel and the Auto Hotel is set for Sunday morning, September 13th.

In case it hasn't been stated....Implosion of the Black Hotel and the Auto Hotel is set for Sunday morning, September 13th.

Historic...I'd love to be there for that. Not because it's cool, but because it's the demise of historic un-preservation.

Damn the city is smart. Don't want people there to witness the demolition? Aha! Do it on a Sunday morning during church! It'll be like it never actually happened. "If a bear blows up a building in the woods, but no one is there to see it, did it really happen?"

Damn the city is smart. Don't want people there to witness the demolition? Aha! Do it on a Sunday morning during church! It'll be like it never actually happened. "If a bear blows up a building in the woods, but no one is there to see it, did it really happen?"

Or.... there are less people around and it is safer?

It's a safety measure more than anything. They cannot do it on a weekday as they will have to close several streets and some rubble will be on the surrounding streets. Saturday is also a fairly busy day so it's no good. But Sunday morning early...there isn't much activity downtown then. Their plan is to have the streets cleared by Monday morning.

Or.... there are less people around and it is safer?

This. Devon/Hines are being very transparent about their desire to demolish 9 buildings.

Carpenter Square building completely gone.

From https://twitter.com/OKCNightCourt:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNvPC1zWgAErud7.jpg:large

I don't understand someone who comes into this thread to tell Internet people that they can't feel bad that this bad development is finally happening. That we are finally loosing what was such a great, in-tact historic block.

It would seem pretty obvious that a lot of people in OKC are going to express consternation at what is happening to our downtown. Based on the 1970s urban renewal era, I would expect a similar outraged sentiment at the misguided un-development that is changing the face of OKC.


I think you might be giving the general public far more credit than they are due. I honestly believe that most average joe's off the street don't care and look at old buildings as old. That's part of how we got into that whole Pei mess in the first place. Unfortunately, I don't feel the general public, at large, learned anything from it. FORTUNATELY, we did at least learn SOMETHING with our leadership. It's up to each of us to form our own opinions on how much we feel they learned. Obviously the anti-demo people here think we're on the same path, while others (like myself) feel like we're not there yet, but we're starting to get on a slippery slope.

What's wrong with parking garages? I'd rather park in a garage than walk from a lot blocks away. Fort Worth and Dallas have a bunch of parking garages in both downtowns. Most people who work in downtown Dallas drive there. Most people who ride the train or bus to Dallas are homeless people who never get off it. No one rides the bus to downtown Fort Worth. Who wants to sit in horrific metroplex traffic when its not even your car?

What's wrong with parking garages? I'd rather park in a garage than walk from a lot blocks away. Fort Worth and Dallas have a bunch of parking garages in both downtowns. Most people who work in downtown Dallas drive there. Most people who ride the train or bus to Dallas are homeless people who never get off it. No one rides the bus to downtown Fort Worth. Who wants to sit in horrific metroplex traffic when its not even your car?

We don't want to be Dallas or Fort Worth. We want to be a better city than that.

As far as your question, though... parking garages are not ideal development. They take up a lot of space and they don't produce anything. The only thing they do is to make it easier for people to live farther away from the city. Now in 2015 OKC, they're a necessary evil. We have to have parking garages or nobody can get downtown. But, the things we build today are going to be with us for a long time. Hopefully in 50 years, 499 Sheridan will still be standing, still be in use, still be part of our city fabric. So anything we build today should be built the right way, so that it's not only beneficial today, but it's still beneficial in 2060.

A building can include parking without a problem. But if a building is only parking, then it creates a barrier to pedestrian activity. It doesn't have anything to interact with people on foot. There are no stores, no restaurants, no offices. It's just a blank concrete wall that goes all the way down the block. Even if you try and make it pretty with lighting and decorative glass, there's still nothing for people to do on that block. So they tend to just not go there. What 499 Sheridan does is replace a bunch of buildings that had shops and stores and restaurants, and in their place it puts a tower and two large parking garages. One of those garages is across the street from two other parking garages. They are creating a pedestrian "dead area" where nobody walks around. That's a negative for the city.

The biggest problem with 499 Sheridan is that they didn't have to design it this way. There were dozens of suggestions in this very thread on ways the design could be improved, without significantly increasing the costs. You could have 5% less parking, and get 5 times better street interaction. And since this building is going to be with the city for a long time in the future, it's important to do it that way.

Parking garages are a necessary evil, but they can be done in a creative where so that you don't even realize they are there.

We don't want to be Dallas or Fort Worth. We want to be a better city than that.

As far as your question, though... parking garages are not ideal development. They take up a lot of space and they don't produce anything. The only thing they do is to make it easier for people to live farther away from the city. Now in 2015 OKC, they're a necessary evil. We have to have parking garages or nobody can get downtown. But, the things we build today are going to be with us for a long time. Hopefully in 50 years, 499 Sheridan will still be standing, still be in use, still be part of our city fabric. So anything we build today should be built the right way, so that it's not only beneficial today, but it's still beneficial in 2060.

A building can include parking without a problem. But if a building is only parking, then it creates a barrier to pedestrian activity. It doesn't have anything to interact with people on foot. There are no stores, no restaurants, no offices. It's just a blank concrete wall that goes all the way down the block. Even if you try and make it pretty with lighting and decorative glass, there's still nothing for people to do on that block. So they tend to just not go there. What 499 Sheridan does is replace a bunch of buildings that had shops and stores and restaurants, and in their place it puts a tower and two large parking garages. One of those garages is across the street from two other parking garages. They are creating a pedestrian "dead area" where nobody walks around. That's a negative for the city.

The biggest problem with 499 Sheridan is that they didn't have to design it this way. There were dozens of suggestions in this very thread on ways the design could be improved, without significantly increasing the costs. You could have 5% less parking, and get 5 times better street interaction. And since this building is going to be with the city for a long time in the future, it's important to do it that way.

You nailed it, hoya. It didn't have to be this way and it could have been even better just following the suggestions in this thread! That's the most irritating aspect for me.

What's wrong with parking garages? I'd rather park in a garage than walk from a lot blocks away. Fort Worth and Dallas have a bunch of parking garages in both downtowns. Most people who work in downtown Dallas drive there. Most people who ride the train or bus to Dallas are homeless people who never get off it. No one rides the bus to downtown Fort Worth. Who wants to sit in horrific metroplex traffic when its not even your car?

As far as sitting in traffic goes, you really have 3 options for dealing with it.

1) Live in the suburbs. Drive in traffic. Accept the long commute as part of your day. It's the price you pay for a big yard.
2) Take public transportation. In a city with rail, you can avoid the car traffic by taking the train. You'll want to live close to the station though, or you have to drive there, and then you're back at option 1.
3) Live close to work. The more downtown housing we have, the easier it is for you to do this.

Ultimately, it's a compromise. Each person has to decide if their commute is worth it. As long as you are driving your car, you're going to have to deal with traffic. There's no escape from that.

This is going to happen, no matter how much moaning, whining, crying or how big a tantrum some of you throw. And some of you can tell us what an absolute, sorry ass, crappy, worthless, backwater, redneck place OKC is, it's happening.

We don't want to be Dallas or Fort Worth. We want to be a better city than that.

LOL! Dallas is truly an international city with an amazing skyline. They have tons of public transportation, but most people drive and park in the parking garages. Unless you're literally trying to save a buck and ride a train, you're driving. Public transportation is a hassle. I'm sure some of the single people or couples with no kids who live in downtown use it, but no one that has a family wants to live in downtown. (or its very rare).
Fort Worth is vastly different than Dallas. It's essentially OKC. Much more laid back, but has an exploding population. Again, unless you're single or don't have a family your living in the burbs. Better schools, more convenient. less crime, etc.
The thing that Dallas does offer though is a lot of underground parking & underground shopping.

As far as sitting in traffic goes, you really have 3 options for dealing with it.

1) Live in the suburbs. Drive in traffic. Accept the long commute as part of your day. It's the price you pay for a big yard.
2) Take public transportation. In a city with rail, you can avoid the car traffic by taking the train. You'll want to live close to the station though, or you have to drive there, and then you're back at option 1.
3) Live close to work. The more downtown housing we have, the easier it is for you to do this.

Ultimately, it's a compromise. Each person has to decide if their commute is worth it. As long as you are driving your car, you're going to have to deal with traffic. There's no escape from that.

Hoya-the one variable you missed is schooling. Most everyone with children wants to give their kids the best education they can. That is not offered in OKC public schools which is a HUGE deterrent to many people from living in downtown, Uptown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Mesta Park, etc., etc., etc. Therefore, many people who would love to live downtown or in the surrounding areas choose #1 or #2 over #3 not for the big yard, but for their children to have the best opportunity to succeed in life. Schooling will always win over a commute and until this changes many people will continue to demand parking downtown to facilitate their commute=more parking garages!

I would also point out that if your job is in the suburbs you are probably better off living there, near your job. Less windshield time = better quality of life, even if some of your entertainment options become more remote. If my job suddenly were in the 'burbs, I'd move there to enable less commuting, though I wouldn't be really happy about it. I like having all of my entertainment and services nearby. If I moved to the 'burbs I'd really be pulling for more development along the lines of Chisholm Creek.

Hoya-the one variable you missed is schooling. Most everyone with children wants to give their kids the best education they can. That is not offered in OKC public schools which is a HUGE deterrent to many people from living in downtown, Uptown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Mesta Park, etc., etc., etc. Therefore, many people who would love to live downtown or in the surrounding areas choose #1 or #2 over #3 not for the big yard, but for their children to have the best opportunity to succeed in life. Schooling will always win over a commute and until this changes many people will continue to demand parking downtown to facilitate their commute=more parking garages!

It's a problem that OKC needs to overcome. It still doesn't make the parking garage design here "good".

Hoya-the one variable you missed is schooling. Most everyone with children wants to give their kids the best education they can. That is not offered in OKC public schools which is a HUGE deterrent to many people from living in downtown, Uptown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Mesta Park, etc., etc., etc. Therefore, many people who would love to live downtown or in the surrounding areas choose #1 or #2 over #3 not for the big yard, but for their children to have the best opportunity to succeed in life. Schooling will always win over a commute and until this changes many people will continue to demand parking downtown to facilitate their commute=more parking garages!

This is a significant factor. OKC isn't unique though in having a distressed inner-city school district. In fact, I would be willing to say that in most metropolitan areas, the suburbs offer better districts than the city.

LOL! Dallas is truly an international city with an amazing skyline. They have tons of public transportation, but most people drive and park in the parking garages. Unless you're literally trying to save a buck and ride a train, you're driving. Public transportation is a hassle. I'm sure some of the single people or couples with no kids who live in downtown use it, but no one that has a family wants to live in downtown. (or its very rare).
Fort Worth is vastly different than Dallas. It's essentially OKC. Much more laid back, but has an exploding population. Again, unless you're single or don't have a family your living in the burbs. Better schools, more convenient. less crime, etc.
The thing that Dallas does offer though is a lot of underground parking & underground shopping.

Say what you want about Dallas, but their downtown area along with Houston's are about as far as possible from what most people here want this city to be. If you've ever spent time in downtown Dallas and compared that to somewhere like Austin or Denver, you would understand why we feel that way. Outside of the pretty skyline, downtown Dallas sucks because it lacks most of what makes those other downtown areas cool...wide scale interaction at the street level. It's taken awhile and some traveling to fully realize how much downtown Dallas sucks, but it really does compared to other more urban cities of that size (and smaller).

Fort Worth is much better street interaction wise (at least in the Sundance Square portion), but we have several built in advantages that should make downtown OKC much better than downtown Fort Worth. The proximity of all our walkable inner city neighborhoods and urban districts to our central business district is a major advantage working in our favor compared downtown fort worth, which is pretty much on an island. The same could be said for Dallas (although uptown and some of the historic districts to the North & Northeast aren't too far from the business district) and Tulsa which at least as far as urban neighborhoods, seems like it is on an island (though Brady and Blue Dome obviously help on the urban district side of that).

LOL! Dallas is truly an international city with an amazing skyline. They have tons of public transportation, but most people drive and park in the parking garages. Unless you're literally trying to save a buck and ride a train, you're driving. Public transportation is a hassle. I'm sure some of the single people or couples with no kids who live in downtown use it, but no one that has a family wants to live in downtown. (or its very rare).
Fort Worth is vastly different than Dallas. It's essentially OKC. Much more laid back, but has an exploding population. Again, unless you're single or don't have a family your living in the burbs. Better schools, more convenient. less crime, etc.
The thing that Dallas does offer though is a lot of underground parking & underground shopping.

The fact that the first thing you mention is Dallas' skyline shows that you are missing the point. First of all, I don't think their skyline is impressive, especially considering the size of the city. And second, the fact that most of the people who live in Dallas want to live in the suburbs shows you some of the serious problems they have there. Remember that the skyline only matters when you're far away.

I didn't say that OKC is better right now. But OKC has the chance to become a nicer, more livable city than Dallas. We have the chance to avoid the massive traffic problems that Dallas has. We have the opportunity to create public transportation that is easy and convenient to use. We have the ability to make our downtown appealing to families, with good schools, more convenience, and better quality of life.

Hoya-the one variable you missed is schooling. Most everyone with children wants to give their kids the best education they can. That is not offered in OKC public schools which is a HUGE deterrent to many people from living in downtown, Uptown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Mesta Park, etc., etc., etc. Therefore, many people who would love to live downtown or in the surrounding areas choose #1 or #2 over #3 not for the big yard, but for their children to have the best opportunity to succeed in life. Schooling will always win over a commute and until this changes many people will continue to demand parking downtown to facilitate their commute=more parking garages!

Well the elementary school side of that has been taken care of and Classen SAS and Harding also offer good charter school options for post elementary school needs, but I don't think the lack of good inner city school options is unique to OKC. That being said, the school situation isn't ideal, but it's not something we have much control over and I don't see it improving quickly. I can't think of many cities, especially in this part of the country, that have great inner city schools and they are all able to overcome that issue and have vibrant downtown areas. I will also add that it doesn't seem to be that big of a deterrent because real estate prices in all of the neighborhoods you mention are sky high and most apartments and for sale housing in developments are full before the paint is dry.

First of all, I don't think their skyline is impressive, especially considering the size of the city.

Dallas Voted Best Skyline in the World: USA Today | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth (http://www.nbcdfw.com/entertainment/the-scene/Dallas-Voted-Best-Skyline-in-the-World-USA-Today-274666791.html)


And second, the fact that most of the people who live in Dallas want to live in the suburbs shows you some of the serious problems they have there.

I don't even know where to start with this. People don't live in downtown Dallas (non single/no kids people) for very specific reasons. Parking is not one of them.


Austin or Denver

Let me guess, the next cities you're going to bring up are San Francisco and Boulder.

Not sure the credibility of USA Todays readers voting on something like this. St Louis has the arch as it's signature and DC has no 'skyline' at all.
Someone in the story remarked that Dallas beat out Paris...... how many people in Paris read USA Today and then would vote ?

Dallas Voted Best Skyline in the World: USA Today | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth (http://www.nbcdfw.com/entertainment/the-scene/Dallas-Voted-Best-Skyline-in-the-World-USA-Today-274666791.html)

That is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in the last year. That includes two Will Ferrell movies.



I don't even know where to start with this. People don't live in downtown Dallas (non single/no kids people) for very specific reasons. Parking is not one of them.

I never said they don't live in downtown Dallas because of parking. I implied that they don't live in downtown Dallas because it's not a very nice place to live.



Austin or Denver

Let me guess, the next cities you're going to bring up are San Francisco and Boulder.

Where did I say Austin or Denver? I never wrote that. Are you now modifying my posts just so that you have something to attack?

That is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in the last year. That includes two Will Ferrell movies.



I never said they don't live in downtown Dallas because of parking. I implied that they don't live in downtown Dallas because it's not a very nice place to live.



Where did I say Austin or Denver? I never wrote that. Are you now modifying my posts just so that you have something to attack?

He has you confused with PhiAlpha

#2 Most people who live in downtown Austin are single / no kids people.
#3 someone else said Austin / Denver. My apologies...

#2 Most people who live in downtown Austin are single / no kids people.
#3 someone else said Austin / Denver. My apologies...

Not really sure why you think aiming to make OKC more like Austin or Denver over Dallas and Fort Worth is as ridiculous as you are acting like it is... They both have much more desirable pedestrian oriented downtowns than Dallas and the proximity of those downtowns to other neighborhoods and urban districts in those cities are much more like OKC than Dallas or Fort Worth.

The obsession and glamorization of Dallas/Ft Worth (and Texas in general) is by far my least favorite thing about OKCTalk. And I live in Dallas for Christ sakes. I mean, its an okay area but it's not perfect...not by a longshot.


Well the elementary school side of that has been taken care of and Classen SAS and Harding also offer good charter school options for post elementary school needs, but I don't think the lack of good inner city school options is unique to OKC. That being said, the school situation isn't ideal, but it's not something we have much control over and I don't see it improving quickly. I can't think of many cities, especially in this part of the country, that have great inner city schools and they are all able to overcome that issue and have vibrant downtown areas. I will also add that it doesn't seem to be that big of a deterrent because real estate prices in all of the neighborhoods you mention are sky high and most apartments and for sale housing in developments are full before the paint is dry.

This isn't going to be a popular thing to say, but we really need to stop looking through the lens of kids and families so much. Don't get me wrong, I love little kids, but the facts states that the vast majority of households in this country do NOT have kids, somewhere around 60%. And in essence, these people can live anywhere they choose without worrying about districts. You are correct, most urban districts are hot garbage. But they didn't become that way overnight, and it will take time to get them to improve.

I wonder what the percentage of households in OKC is. I think there are still a huge number of people here that have kids. Personally, I don't have kids yet. But I want some, someday. So anywhere I move, schools will be a factor. We can probably build a nice downtown based around people with no kids. But downtown OKC will explode once you can buy a townhouse for less than $250K and there are good schools in the area.

I think you might be giving the general public far more credit than they are due. I honestly believe that most average joe's off the street don't care and look at old buildings as old.

But all you have to do is hang out in the better preserved districts to know that a lot more average joes like going to those places than to our super blocks of parking. I don't know what they're thinking about when they do, but it certainly is an attraction for a whole lot of people. Preservation and restoration has been a vital part of downtown's recent success stories. It's actually getting to be pretty amazing that many people still can't recognize that.

But all you have to do is hang out in the better preserved districts to know that a lot more average joes like going to those places than to our super blocks of parking. I don't know what they're thinking about when they do, but it certainly an attraction for a whole lot of people. Preservation and restoration has been a vital part of the downtown's recent success stories. It's actually getting to be pretty amazing that many people still can't recognize that.

People know they like it but they don't know WHY they like it.

I wonder what the percentage of households in OKC is. I think there are still a huge number of people here that have kids. Personally, I don't have kids yet. But I want some, someday. So anywhere I move, schools will be a factor. We can probably build a nice downtown based around people with no kids. But downtown OKC will explode once you can buy a townhouse for less than $250K and there are good schools in the area.

If you believe the info here (http://www.point2homes.com/US/Neighborhood/OK/Oklahoma-County-Demographics.html), Oklahoma County may be an outlier for more childless households than the national average (somewhere in the neighborhood of 67% vs 60% nationally).

Of course, I am sure a lot of these people like you would like to have children eventually. And frankly even a lot of people without kids would prefer a more suburban environment for other benefits like a larger yard, cheaper real estate, closer to their jobs in the suburbs, etc. etc. I just think this whole "urban schools as the poison pill for any sort of urban development" is played out and an increasing nonfactor for a lot of people, especially in light of this country's changing demographics.

Look at cities that, much like OKC, are growing faster than their suburbs (NYC, Seattle, Austin, New Orleans, etc) While NYC and NOLA have some great magnet programs, none of these districts are anything to write home about. But growth in these cities is chugging along quite nicely because they are able to offer other things. And these cities schools may very well improve in the future thanks to the influx of new tax revenue.

People know they like it but they don't know WHY they like it.

I guess, but does it really matter? I imagine that they actually do to some extent. They at least know that it's different. I think that's why it works in the core. To be successful, it has to differentiate itself from that other 600 square miles of the city and one of the best ways to do that so far has been preserving and re-purposing the older buildings because no one builds anything like them anymore. By their very design, it creates a different atmosphere than the rest of the city, which in turn instantly differentiates it from the other options that are in abundance throughout OKC. For downtown to really become a lasting success, it just has to be a real urban option in OKC. 499 works against that goal on so many levels it's kind a mind blowing that anyone even considered doing it this way.

The obsession and glamorization of Dallas/Ft Worth (and Texas in general) is by far my least favorite thing about OKCTalk. And I live in Dallas for Christ sakes. I mean, its an okay area but it's not perfect...not by a longshot.



This isn't going to be a popular thing to say, but we really need to stop looking through the lens of kids and families so much. Don't get me wrong, I love little kids, but the facts states that the vast majority of households in this country do NOT have kids, somewhere around 60%. And in essence, these people can live anywhere they choose without worrying about districts. You are correct, most urban districts are hot garbage. But they didn't become that way overnight, and it will take time to get them to improve.

Agree on all points.

I guess, but does it really matter? I imagine that they actually do to some extent. They at least know that it's different. I think that's why it works in the core. To be successful, it has to differentiate itself from that other 600 square miles of the city and one of the best ways to do that so far has been preserving and re-purposing the older buildings because no one builds anything like them anymore. By their very design, it creates a different atmosphere than the rest of the city, which in turn instantly differentiates it from the other options that are in abundance throughout OKC. For downtown to really become a lasting success, it just has to be a real urban option in OKC. 499 works against that goal on so many levels it's kind a mind blowing that anyone even considered doing it this way.

I doubt many here would disagree with you and I think the majority of the posters here are disappointed with how this turned out. I just think it's kind of pointless to continue complaining about it at this point. The fight for this block is over and the rest is completely out of our hands. All we can do now is hope the building turns out ok and that the retail spaces in the garages get filled to minimize the negative aspects of the development. Time to move on to the next preservation fight and stop wasting time and energy on a lost cause.

I guess, but does it really matter? I imagine that they actually do to some extent. They at least know that it's different. I think that's why it works in the core. To be successful, it has to differentiate itself from that other 600 square miles of the city and one of the best ways to do that so far has been preserving and re-purposing the older buildings because no one builds anything like them anymore. By their very design, it creates a different atmosphere than the rest of the city, which in turn instantly differentiates it from the other options that are in abundance throughout OKC. For downtown to really become a lasting success, it just has to be a real urban option in OKC. 499 works against that goal on so many levels it's kind a mind blowing that anyone even considered doing it this way.

For as much good as he's done for this city (and overall, he's still way in the positive), I don't think Larry Nichols quite understands New Urbanism. He's looking at this building and he's going "X amount more office space, check. Y amount more parking, check. Big name architect, check. Alright, let's do this!" He's an oil guy, not an urban design expert. Hell, if you'd talked to me like 5 or 6 years ago, I'd have been cheering this on as well.

^

Keep in mind Nichols is the chair (and therefore basically runs) OCURA, the Alliance for Economic Development and the Devon TIF.

And is unquestionably the biggest influence on the convention center committee.


His influence on downtown is exponentially greater than anyone else.

I think the comment (following PhiAlpha's post about Denver/Austin) that said "let me guess, the next cities you're going to bring up are San Francisco and Boulder..." was an attempt to paint a desire for good urbanism as a hipster or political (liberal) thing, as often happens in these discussions. Good urbanism is decidedly APOLITICAL, and you can make a strong case for it from either side of the aisle. It's just good, smart policy. Austin, Denver, Boulder and San Francisco aren't the only cities with more urban livability; so are places like Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Omaha and even Des Moines.

I would also point out that if your job is in the suburbs you are probably better off living there, near your job. Less windshield time = better quality of life, even if some of your entertainment options become more remote. If my job suddenly were in the 'burbs, I'd move there to enable less commuting, though I wouldn't be really happy about it. I like having all of my entertainment and services nearby. If I moved to the 'burbs I'd really be pulling for more development along the lines of Chisholm Creek.

What's nice about OKC is you can live in the out of the core, but not suburb area and still be 10mins from all the entertainment options. Plus when things are going on its typically when there is little to no traffic. It's a nice happy medium with a 10min drive to work.

If you believe the info here (http://www.point2homes.com/US/Neighborhood/OK/Oklahoma-County-Demographics.html), Oklahoma County may be an outlier for more childless households than the national average (somewhere in the neighborhood of 67% vs 60% nationally).

.

I would be interested to see what parameters they used. Easy to make numbers say whatever just by changing parameters. this one puts people with kids at much higher numbers Desire for Children Still Norm in U.S. (http://www.gallup.com/poll/164618/desire-children-norm.aspx). This one looks at women 15-44 and states that childless women are at an all time high at 46%. A Record Percentage Of Women Don't Have Kids. Here's Why That Makes Sense. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/09/childless-more-women-are-not-having-kids-says-census_n_7032258.html). Not necessarily disagreeing with you but questioning what the parameters were as that number seems really high. I am assuming also included retired households where there were probably children when house was bought but now the kids are gone.

Let me tie back into the topic now. I can see the need for parking garages and kids do play in as today's parents are more likely to scoot out for an hour or two to be more active in kid activities. This is tougher to do if you have to ride public transportation home to get your car to go the activity. Not impossible but tougher. It is easier to do if your child is at John Rex and you work at Devon but say you work at Devon in a suit and your child is at Classen.

I think we should have higher standards though where the parking is below ground or above the 2nd level so we can have street activity.

I doubt many here would disagree with you and I think the majority of the posters here are disappointed with how this turned out. I just think it's kind of pointless to continue complaining about it at this point. The fight for this block is over and the rest is completely out of our hands. All we can do now is hope the building turns out ok and that the retail spaces in the garages get filled to minimize the negative aspects of the development. Time to move on to the next preservation fight and stop wasting time and energy on a lost cause.

I know what you're saying, but I don't see it as complaining as much as it is just continued criticism. I think until it changes, it's worth it to keep pointing it out, especially as it unfolds. This is far from an isolated incident in OKC. Despite numerous examples of how preservation works and how super blocks don't, many still just can't recognize it. It's no longer just a sentimental position or one of aesthetic preference. Historic preservation and restoration is clearly an economic one. Couple that with what has been replacing demolition and continues to replace demolition, and we still keep having these projects that conflict with many of what makes a good downtown instead of adding to it. Even the "taller is always better" crowd should be against it, because demolition just keeps mitigating the need for more vertical construction.

Honestly, if the city and the major developers didn't forget this every single time it's done, then there would be no need for constant reminders. I just feel that celebrating something like 499 and "moving on" simply ensures that it will continue to happen. Just the fact that 499 is happening the way it is is testament than moving on from the last time it was done was a mistake. So, continuing to hold 499 up as bad development is not a fight for this block but for the downtown community and OKC as a whole. Santa Fe parking garage was built decades ago. It's still pretty easy to talk about how it sucks.

11420

From https://twitter.com/OKCNightCourt:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN5h_L8WcAAv1rx.jpg:large

From https://twitter.com/OKCNightCourt:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN5h_L8WcAAv1rx.jpg:large

Today's lesson in irony, and perhaps subjectivity as well...

11431

Well at 0835 on the 13th it will be down.

Just taken:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/499090515.jpg

Where will be a good place to watch the implosion? Any word on how far back crowds will be pushed back?

I know that the hightower roof can be ruled out.

Where will be a good place to watch the implosion? Any word on how far back crowds will be pushed back?

I'd say the top floor of that parking garage to the west, if they let you in it.


And also up wind.

I'd say the top floor of that parking garage to the west, if they let you in it.


And also up wind.

Not that we are celebrating anything but we are planning on mimosas and bloody marys on the balcony of our office.

Not that we are celebrating anything but we are planning on mimosas and bloody marys on the balcony of our office.

LOL, you are the man.

I smoked some cuban cigars for my bachelor party a few weeks ago, very excellent!

As much as I hate to see these buildings go, I do appreciate a good demolition.

Not that we are celebrating anything but we are planning on mimosas and bloody marys on the balcony of our office.

Is this an open OKCTalk event?

I'd say the top floor of that parking garage to the west, if they let you in it.


And also up wind.


The Sheridan / Walker Garage will be closed to the public and they will have security on watch to keep people out (per an email distributed to City employees). Suffice it to say, we are not allowed in the 420 building and they are having inspectors come in on Thursday and Friday to examine all offices with exterior walls to the east and south.

I have no idea if the Arts Garage will be open or not.

Is this an open OKCTalk event?

I wish my balcony was that big!

#2 Most people who live in downtown Austin are single / no kids people.
#3 someone else said Austin / Denver. My apologies...

Hey, what's wrong with single no kids people? lol

Great aerial shot just before these two buildings meet their final demise on Sunday:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/499090815.jpg