Ed has given plenty of reasons over the years to throw shade at him. This is not one of them

OKC is a great city full of people with nice Midwestern manners and work ethic... But they need to learn to still like people when they don't ALWAYS see eye to eye. Like him or not, when you have a good cause that nobody else will stand up for, you've got an ear with Ed.

And honestly I am doing a dissertation right now on how we can get better at transit planning FOR investment & development - so you know where I stand on this - but I think we need a (populist/equity) bus advocate to challenge us through this process. Diamonds are born out of pressure. I genuinely appreciate the people in Ohio who make my job more difficult; if everything were easy, everything would be half-assed.

if everything were easy, everything would be half-assed.

So very true!

It costs the company more and these are businesses....

That's not really how it works.

The reality is that we really don't know what kind of analysis they did, if any, on the opportunity cost of alternate plans and the relative ROI on different plans. My guess is that they did very little, because that was never their focus or intent. Obviously, this plan does not maximize the potential revenue of the block, but I don't think that they really care about that. This is simply about meeting operational needs. If they wanted to generate more revenue with the land, it would of course cost more, but we have been told this whole block is one of the most valuable in the city. I have a hard time believing that's just because it's the best place for parking garages.

if everything were easy, everything would be half-assed.

And it sure seems like the city makes it easy for things to be half-assed a lot.

Will we know anything more this Friday?
:p

Will we know anything more this Friday?
:p

The trial is scheduled to conclude either Thursday or Friday.

But what isn't known is how long the judge will take to make his decision. I don't think it will take him longer than the following week, as he's already reviewed most the evidence and told the two sides what he'll be considering and what he has already eliminated as issues.

His decision will likely only be one of two things: 1) Finding in favor of Hines which would allow them to immediately demo the bus station; or 2) Finding in favor of Shadid and sending the matter back to the DDRC for further input and evaluation.

Except Hines can't be ruled in favor of because they are not the defendent. This is Ed shadid vs the Okc board of ajustment/ddrc. The city and the attorneys they had to hire to fight this lawsuit. This is very much about the cities ability to make judgements on buildings via ddrc /boa. And has wide reaching application. If Ed wins. Pretty much no building would be able to be redeveloped with out fear of lawsuit.

Except Hines can't be ruled in favor of because they are not the defendent. This is Ed shadid vs the Okc board of ajustment/ddrc. The city and the attorneys they had to hire to fight this lawsuit. This is very much about the cities ability to make judgements on buildings via ddrc /boa. And has wide reaching application. If Ed wins. Pretty much no building would be able to be redeveloped with out fear of lawsuit.

Do you see that as a good or bad thing?

Except Hines can't be ruled in favor of because they are not the defendent. This is Ed shadid vs the Okc board of ajustment/ddrc. The city and the attorneys they had to hire to fight this lawsuit. This is very much about the cities ability to make judgements on buildings via ddrc /boa. And has wide reaching application. If Ed wins. Pretty much no building would be able to be redeveloped with out fear of lawsuit.

The City did not have to fight the lawsuit or hire outside attorneys.

Those were both choices that they made.

Yes they did. They have a duty to the people of Okc to defend the statutes that govern our city. And that is very much what this lawsuit is about. 2 separate board made a ruling based on the design regulations. And that is being challenged. They have a responsibility to defend themselves. Ed is the one choosing to cause the city to spend money.

The City has full-time attorneys on staff and elected to contract with someone from the outside, otherwise there would be no cost to the taxpayers.

Barricades going around the building today

They have a permit to move a construction trailer to the lot immediately north of the bus station.

From https://twitter.com/OKCNightCourt:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIMskWUUcAAfNcp.jpg:large

10990

Here is the plan they submitted to the City with my annotations:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/499sheridan062315.jpg

It is painful to watch a slow-motion mistake that will last generations.

I almost expect the demolition foreman to be sitting in his office in the construction trailer waiting for a call telling him to proceed with demolition. The ink on the court ruling won't even be dry yet.

It is painful to watch a slow-motion mistake that will last generations.

Can't wait to watch progress. And the removal of non functional buildings

Shame they never demolished the Skirvin while it was non functional. Could certainly have helped to add more parking to the Santa Fe deck.

Can't wait to watch progress. And the removal of non functional buildings

Same here. Cant wait for the progress were making

Shame they never demolished the Skirvin while it was non functional. Could certainly have helped to add more parking to the Santa Fe deck.

Yeah. Bricktown... 23rd.... Tower Theater... Plaza district... Plaza Court... Paseo... Stockyards... glad they're not making those mistakes again.

Maybe they didn't tear all that down because most of those buildings were ACTUALLY non-functioning, as opposed to this situation where they bought them as functioning and intentionally turned them into non-functioning buildings

So glad we learned from all the mistakes made by our most vibrant districts. lol!

I'm pretty sure we all know the writing has been on the wall.
However, I think we should all applaud ourselves and others for making a stand and delaying where we could.
This does send a message that OKCers are serious about preservation, although on the same coin, it does show that the planners and city have no back bone when standing next to the companies influence throughout the city.

Shadid's efforts and the new design were fabulous, in my opinion.

At this point, though, I am tired of waiting for the inevitable and just want to see this be done with. No more peeling the band aid off slowly, just rip it off and get the project done.

And I really do think that at some point in the future, they're going to regret not adding a few floors on for additional leased space, or even internal growth, when someone is looking to tear down more buildings for more office space. But, that's why I'm not the expert.

Trolling, or telling the truth?

Am I sad that the bus station, a building that never would be approved to be built today, is being torn down? Of course not it is not urban in any way. One North Hudson on the other hand could have and perhaps should have been saved. However it also true that the "historic" building that was once there no longer exists.

As far as this lawsuit ... I'm afraid some of you can't see the forest for the trees ..

If you are a died in the wool preservation person ie .. no building should EVER be torn down for any reason ever then you should hope Ed prevails ...

If you do not fall into that exact camp you should hope he doesn't ... as much as he or others want to say his lawsuit is not about this building or this block

It is about if design committees/board of adjustment are allow to make a judgment to allow for building demolition ..... period ... and I would submit that there are very few that want to take away that ability ....

Is the make up on the DDRC/BOA perfect? Do they always makes judgments that we all agree with? Of course not. But those are things that you work with in the city to change .... suing the city to argue with the process (one that I believe will be proven very legal) is akin to not liking the rules to a neighborhood game of horse and taking the ball and going home ... it is obstructionist ..

It is painful to watch a slow-motion mistake that will last generations.

What's great is in the future someone will want to tear down 499, and someone will be making the exact same post you are making.

There's nothing really truly significant about these buildings other then they are old and people's nostalgia.

Stage Center was at least a significant building, its sad that there was no way it could become an economically viable building.

What's great is in the future someone will want to tear down 499, and someone will be making the exact same post you are making.

There's nothing really truly significant about these buildings other then they are old and people's nostalgia.

Stage Center was at least a significant building, its sad that there was no way it could become an economically viable building.

The problem I have with it is in this order.

1) OKC has so much surface parking and grass lots downtown that there is no reason to demolish these structures. I would understand it if the city had a downtown that was built out or at least close to it.

2) The project is replacing good urbanism with bad urbanism and going the cheap route at that. 499 Sheridan is a prime example of the "OKC way" of building as cheap as possible without any vision or regard for surrounding environment.

The problem I have with it is in this order.

1) OKC has so much surface parking and grass lots downtown that there is no reason to demolish these structures. I would understand it if the city had a downtown that was built out or at least close to it.

2) The project is replacing good urbanism with bad urbanism and going the cheap route at that. 499 Sheridan is a prime example of the "OKC way" of building as cheap as possible without any vision or regard for surrounding environment.

It's an office tower built by 2 of the most powerful corporations in the state neither of which really truly deeply care about good urban-ism. At least the skyline will grow a little and we're getting rid of some vacant buildings that aren't of any major historical significance.

I get the Stage Center fight, but this fight comes off as being anti-change unless its the change I want.

What's great is in the future someone will want to tear down 499, and someone will be making the exact same post you are making.

There's nothing really truly significant about these buildings other then they are old and people's nostalgia.

Stage Center was at least a significant building, its sad that there was no way it could become an economically viable building.

^^^ ditto ^^^ The location in relevance to the park was the downfall of some of these structures, which I do hate to see some of it go, but also enjoy the fact of new skyline growth.

Except Hines can't be ruled in favor of because they are not the defendent. This is Ed shadid vs the Okc board of ajustment/ddrc. The city and the attorneys they had to hire to fight this lawsuit. This is very much about the cities ability to make judgements on buildings via ddrc /boa. And has wide reaching application. If Ed wins. Pretty much no building would be able to be redeveloped with out fear of lawsuit.

Wait what are you smoking?

Can't wait to watch progress. And the removal of non functional buildings

You have no integrity boldie. Have you already forgotten about Preftakes' ownership, evicting long-running businesses, and intentional deferred maintenance?

At least the skyline will grow a little and we're getting rid of some vacant buildings that aren't of any major historical significance.

The developer made them vacant and there was tenant interest right up until the demolition announcement. So, they basically cleared out functioning buildings for parking lots.

I just find it interesting that with all the great examples of district improvements and renovations in the city, people can still drive down Gaylord and think "we need more of this and less of that". Because pretty much this development is really just a repeat of Santa Fe garage + Chase: a block of parking with a boxy modest high rise, and a little token retail. It's like some people are thinking, "whoa, OKC is getting kinda cool, we need to get back to our roots and add some blandness we used to be known for and let's kick out some tenants and tear down some buildings while we're at it".

The developer made them vacant and there was tenant interest right up until the demolition announcement. So, they basically cleared out functioning buildings for parking lots.

I just find it interesting that with all the great examples of district improvements and renovations in the city, people can still drive down Gaylord and think "we need more of this and less of that". Because pretty much this development is really just a repeat of Santa Fe garage + Chase: a block of parking with a boxy modest high rise, and a little token retail. It's like some people are thinking, "whoa, OKC is getting kinda cool, we need to get back to our roots and add some blandness we used to be known for and let's kick out some tenants and tear down some buildings while we're at it".

A bit of embellishment here. Nothing compares to the Santa Fe Garage.

Ben Felder with the Gazette (@benfelder_okg) is live tweeting the court hearing between Shadid and OKC, Board of Adjustment. Started at 9 am.

Street barriers were being installed yesterday afternoon. Regardless of the court hearing, the other buildings are going to come down soon.

Street barriers were being installed yesterday afternoon. Regardless of the court hearing, the other buildings are going to come down soon.

Good picture in post # 1155.

A bit of embellishment here. Nothing compares to the Santa Fe Garage.

Not much of one though. It's pretty much the same concept. It's not quite as big on its own, but parking does take up half the block like the Satan Fe does on its blocks. And then, if it's not big enough for fans of the Santa Fe concept, Devon's existing garage and the new Main Street garage are just across the street. Add all that together and, yeah, this district will make a nice tribute to Gaylord Blvd. Should be shinier though, so there's that.

499 architect says that there is a safety concern with garage under building becauce it exposes building to a car bomb?

Seems like a pretty awful excuse.

499 architect says that there is a safety concern with garage under building becauce it exposes building to a car bomb?

Seems like a pretty awful excuse.

That would be somewhat believable if it wasn't for the fact that in nearly every other city you will see towers built that have the parking underneath them. They should just be honest and say they are doing it because its cheaper than building the parking under the tower.

499 architect says that there is a safety concern with garage under building becauce it exposes building to a car bomb?

Seems like a pretty awful excuse.


That would be somewhat believable if it wasn't for the fact that in nearly every other city you will see towers built that have the parking underneath them. They should just be honest and say they are doing it because its cheaper than building the parking under the tower.

I was waiting for that response. It's only typical, but the problem is that there is parking underneath other towers across the world... Tulsa has this as well. Is setting the building off from the road as they are doing not enough for them?
I've been following the Twitter feed mentioned above, and the architect is tearing apart, metaphorically, and soon, literally, any idea about preserving the bus station.
It's clear it's their way or no way.

There are several buildings in OKC that have parking underneath offices: Leadership Square, SandRidge Tower, Bank of Oklahoma Tower, City Place, etc. Right across the street, Clayco has proposed it for the the OG&E Energy Center.

And keep in mind the OKC Bombing tragedy was perpetrated by someone parked on the street, not under the building.


BTW, the judge will be taking a field trip with the attorneys to visit the bus station.

499 developer also said that TIFs were not valid for this project? How is that the case?

Water, Water, Water

499 developer also said that TIFs were not valid for this project? How is that the case?

This project falls within TIF #2 and would be eligible for TIF funds like any other project within those boundaries.

Isn't Maywood Phase II being built right now with a big giant hole for parking underneath?

Even the CCC has underground parking. And it is extremely unsecure. A plastic pole literally separates anyone from driving directly underneath "large" conventions.

It is like cops claiming anyone could be a terrorist. How many terrorists have police found? Probably around the same number of buildings blown up by vehicles parked under it.

It's clear that its just an excuse. They should just be honest and say its about saving money and/or serving the interests of Devon. None of the excuses given hold any water.

This project falls within TIF #2 and would be eligible for TIF funds like any other project within those boundaries.

Right, and it seems like that is pretty obvious that it falls within that TIF.... so I was trying to figure out why he would blatantly state the opposite.

My brother in law recently visited from NYC area and we gave him a tour of downtown and the CBD. One of his comments: You guys have more parking garages than buildings!" He's not far off, and they certainly add nothing to downtown from a use or architectural standpoint.

Isn't Maywood Phase II being built right now with a big giant hole for parking underneath?

It has been discussed before, but groundwater depth (vs elevation) varies across downtown, because downtown is hillier than one might think at first glance.. Maywood Phase II is being built on a hilltop. The bottom of that pit is very probably above the sidewalk elevation at 499. The 499 development, OTOH, is in an ancient river bottom, and water is not far beneath the surface. For instance, the MBG lake fills naturally with ground water. When Devon Tower went underground, they had to have giant pumps sucking water out of the hole during construction - and despite this the hole stayed muddy - and they had to leave others installed permanently to keep the basement dry. The hole that used to be Stage Center is also full of water, some of which is from the rains, but some of which is undoubtedly ground water. That is the reality of underground parking at this site. I don't doubt that it would be hydrologically challenging and more expensive.

My brother in law recently visited from NYC area and we gave him a tour of downtown and the CBD. One of his comments: You guys have more parking garages than buildings!" He's not far off, and they certainly add nothing to downtown from a use or architectural standpoint.

In the parking didn't exist in okc. Neither would most of the buildings

Shocking. The judge. Said he doesn't understand importance of shadid presenting an alternative project use

Anybody read the editorial in today's Oklahoman?

http://www.oklahoman.com/hoping-for-quick-end-to-bus-station-challenge/article/5429539

Sorry it's behind their pay-wall, but is it surprising to anyone that they are on the side of "progress" and are in favor of this "project that will benefit the city?"

Most downtowns have tons of parking structures.

What's different about OKC is they are almost all: 1) stand-alone; 2)no part underground; 3) has no other use on top; 4) has little retail or other use on the ground floor and 5) little effort has been made to make them attractive.

So, when you drive around you are very aware of huge, monolithic parking structures sitting there on there own.

And it's because developers won't invest in making them nicer or better integrating them into their projects.

That would be somewhat believable if it wasn't for the fact that in nearly every other city you will see towers built that have the parking underneath them. They should just be honest and say they are doing it because its cheaper than building the parking under the tower.

I'm in Chicago this week at my corporate headquarters. We parked today in an underground parking garage with SIX levels underground. And the Chicago river is right next to the garage, and just down the street is freaking Lake Michigan!

Very interestingly, this morning they completely removed all the barricades that had been installed all around the bus station and surrounding block.

I am very sure this is due to the fact the judge in the bus station trial announced yesterday that he would be taking a trip there at the conclusion of evidence, most likely Friday.

Thanks to jeep for the photo:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/bus062415a.jpg

Just was by the area and noticed all the barricades are removed and not even on site. Any info on what is going on?

They were just placing them out there yesterday.

Just was by the area and noticed all the barricades are removed and not even on site. Any info on what is going on?

They were just placing them out there yesterday.

We cross-posted; see the photo above your post.

Just told the attorneys for Hines were upset with the barricades being placed and asked that they be removed; looks bad for their case.

We cross-posted; see the photo above your post.

Just told the attorneys for Hines were upset with the barricades being placed and asked that they be removed; looks bad for their case.

As I watched the crews put in the barricades yesterday while I was en route to the Convention Center Subcommittee meeting, my first thought was that it was a bold "in your face" move on the eve of the trial. This sort of reaffirms that it was a bad move.

I believe the timing of the barricades going up was just a coincidence and once that got around and then the judge said he would be going to the site as a part of the trial, the attorneys basically strongly suggested they be removed pronto.