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Teo9969
03-18-2015, 02:43 PM
^^^^ Enjoy your vacation, I am sure not much will have changed when you come back. I am sorry, but the things I stated may not have been popular to some of you all but it is not being negative. CChris had some valid points, but lets be honest with ourselves and just admit that the city and state has held itself hostage with many poor choices for years. Yes, the took a chance with MAPS and a disaster in New Orleans helped us land the Thunder with some luck of course. Lets also be honest on how it took someone like Clay Bennett who is from Oklahoma and had a dream and vision to land this team here.

I gave kudos to OKC for the things they have done, you seem to ignore that fact. It has changed and is a much better place. However, poor decisions at both levels have always and shall continue to be what never will allow us to be Texas. It is a stigma that we have endured for years and that will not leave us most likely. We have some people who have great ideas and vision for OKC but will be trumped by those who run the show. It is not me being negative as much as it is about just being honest about this city. It does things on the cheap as does the state. ODOT should be in prison as far as I am concerned, but that is beside the point. Why can't they build and design highways like they do in other states? I know the answer but it might hurt someone's feelings and cause them to take a vacation from here.

Well oh my...whatever will come of us if we can't become Texas???!!!

dankrutka
03-18-2015, 02:55 PM
Defeatists posts like the ones above are a reason I'm considering taking a little vacation from OKCtalk. Way too much negativity on here lately. Given how quiet its been on here lately, I think others are doing the same.

If soondoc and others want to stink up this place with their self-loathing, don't expect me to stick around and smell it.

Don't leave, just put those posters on ignore. Easy solution.

hoya
03-18-2015, 03:10 PM
Yeah I really don't want to be Texas.

soondoc
03-18-2015, 03:12 PM
^^^^ That's right, just hit that ignore button if you don't agree with someone. Have you all ever competed in sports before? I have some valid points but what you just said is nothing more than the little kid "taking the ball and running home". If we don't like to hear anything negative (although a lot of truth in my statements) you can choose to hit the ignore button or take your ball and go home. Some of you seriously need to toughen up a little bit, geesh. How do you deal with other things in your life if someone says something that you don't agree with?

Rover
03-18-2015, 03:21 PM
What is holding OKC back is people who glory in mediocrity, are slaves to the status quo, and have a complete lack of taste and style - and that cuts across all political ideologies.
There are MANY, MANY in this city doing great things. The will do more for this city today than all the dogmatic diatribe accounts for in the life of this board. There are people with vision, energy, and yes, with way more taste and style that you can even relate to, who are working tirelessly to improve our city. To you and Doc who do nothing but see everything as a failure, I say get over yourselves. The leaps and bounds that this city has made in the past 15 years is recognized by many who have far more credentials and wisdom. Do we have issues....of course. We can list many. But this constant need to denegrate says more about the poster than the city.

And yes, the tea partiers and ultra conservatives in this state do give it a backward image. And yet this city is prospering DESPITE them.

Just the facts
03-18-2015, 03:36 PM
499 Seridan isn't being built to the sidewalk because of Sally Kern. It isn't going to have a city block full of parking because of the Tea Party. It is going to have these things because that is what the people building it and their apologists want, for the reasons I cited.


I rest my case.

Rover
03-18-2015, 04:01 PM
Someone look up the definition of arrogance please. I think we have a winner.

It is so easy for someone who only has to deal with a keyboard to claim taste, style, wisdom, etc. because they NEVER have to deal with real world issues. It is much easier to be critical than to be productive.

While there are lots of good ideas passed around on this site regarding good urban design and community building, most all of which I agree with, I think this idea that everyone who is actually doing anything of substance in this city is stupid, corrupt, without good taste, etc. and the rest of us who don't throw a hissy fit at every turn are supposedly striving for mediocrity is just plain arrogance. It is one thing to work to make things better and it is another to read a book and then preach to the rest how stupid they are because they didn't read the same book. I admire the urbanists who are doing the hard and dirty work trying to get change actually made and laugh at those who merely sit and criticize.

Pete
03-18-2015, 04:01 PM
Let's please get back to discussing this project and not all these tangential topics.

Village
03-18-2015, 10:13 PM
So much unnecessary arguing and negativity. Oklahoma 10 years ago would kill for the development pace we have today...Sadly some of it is negative (such as this development), but so much more of it is positive and comparatively unspoken. OKC is doing the best we have in more then 50 years and is on the verge of something great, the negativity is in some cases warranted (JTF) But in cases like Soondoc it's pointless and only depresses and steers away people. Like it or not this forum represents in a large part the community of okc, so don't attempt to steer people away from that community or give them second thoughts about it.

AP
03-19-2015, 07:58 AM
off topic

Rover
03-19-2015, 08:47 AM
Then don't move here. The reality is you don't just wake up one day and suddenly it's a world class city. Progress is important. And as the saying goes, "perfection is the enemy of progress". OKC has made plenty of mistakes...just like in other cities. But it continues to improve and the economics have improved, making more possible, including more definitive and restrictive requirements. Without solid demand and favorable economics we have had to beg to get attention. Denying the previous lack of demand is silly. We can only exert leverage if we HAVE leverage. Finally we may have SOME. Now, we need to learn how that translates into better rules, and how hard we can use our leverage.

bchris02
03-19-2015, 09:02 AM
off topic

David
03-19-2015, 09:32 AM
Let's please get back to discussing this project and not all these tangential topics.

Was this just wind? Don't ignore the mods, guys.

AP
03-19-2015, 09:36 AM
off topic

David
03-19-2015, 09:40 AM
That has everything to do with the topic. The poster before me said, "Oklahoma 10 years ago would kill for the development pace we have today" talking specifically about this project. And my response falls in line with that. We should not settle for this project because it's better than 10 years ago. We need to hold every development to the highest standard for now. T o keep us on pace with peer cities. Wasn't that quote that's always repeated here something like, "Better than crappy makes us happy"

This is the exact derail that Pete just said to stop, so I rather doubt it does.

AP
03-19-2015, 09:46 AM
off topic

David
03-19-2015, 09:49 AM
You're trying to pivot and claim this post is about this specific development:


I REALLY get tired of people comparing OKC today to 10 years ago and how happy we should all be. No one thinks I'll move to OKC because it's way better than it was 10 years ago. They compare OKC now to other cities now. We should be judging ourselves with where we are compared to the rest of the country and how far we still are behind in terms of quality of life. Not how far we've come.

But it isn't, otherwise it would actually say something about this development.

AP
03-19-2015, 09:51 AM
off topic

Spartan
03-19-2015, 07:33 PM
So much unnecessary arguing and negativity. Oklahoma 10 years ago would kill for the development pace we have today...Sadly some of it is negative (such as this development), but so much more of it is positive and comparatively unspoken. OKC is doing the best we have in more then 50 years and is on the verge of something great, the negativity is in some cases warranted (JTF) But in cases like Soondoc it's pointless and only depresses and steers away people. Like it or not this forum represents in a large part the community of okc, so don't attempt to steer people away from that community or give them second thoughts about it.

The thing though is that the OKC of today is pretty complacent with just being a bigger version of its current self. The OKC of ten years ago truly aspired to be something greater, strongly self-ridiculed for its past civic mistakes, and dared to be progressive. That city was led by progressives who were able to fly under the political radar to turn a rotting city into an urban renaissance story. Today we are truly struggling to navigate through raised expectations and heightened awareness.

Downtown OKC had a very troubling 2014. We started with a ton of land speculation (which is clearly getting out of hand), then had a flurry of superblock developments proposed, and then ended the year on an oil bust. Steve Lackmeyer has been waxing poetic lately on what lies ahead... hopefully a shallower "bust" and faster recover, and a period of economic diversification. Best case scenario.

There is no better way to hedge our boom-bust cycles than a truly progressive civic culture. OKC can't out-Moore Moore, or out-Poteau Poteau...but it can be the state's inner city. It can compete with Dallas and KC, and it can continue to bring strong growth to Oklahoma and particularly Central Oklahoma. Coming up very soon: A metro population of 1.5 million. I'm a mere quarter-century old, but when I was a kid growing up in OKC the metro was just under 1 million and Tulsa was our closest big competitor. LOLZ

And despite how small-time and podunk it seems we were back then (we were reeling from tragedies, oil busts, and job losses), we still dreamed bigger than we do today.

dankrutka
03-20-2015, 12:08 AM
“Nostalgia is only amnesia turned around.” - Adrienne Rich

edcrunk
03-23-2015, 09:00 PM
10495
If they simply made some cut outs in the building like the Otemachi Tower, it would make the building way more interesting.

adaniel
03-25-2015, 03:29 PM
Well this is getting interesting:

Ed Shadid sits out as Oklahoma City Council votes to fight lawsuit | News OK (http://newsok.com/ed-shadid-sits-out-as-oklahoma-city-council-votes-to-fight-lawsuit/article/5404324)

Pete
03-25-2015, 03:33 PM
I don't think this is anything new.

Shadid's suit is basically suing the Board of Adjustment, which operates on behalf of the City of OKC.

So, the City has to defend the suit.

Spartan
03-28-2015, 08:07 AM
It still annoys me that nobody has ever called out the cheapness of their parking structures. That's one of the main reasons we have the problem we have here.

I was working on a project in Dayton where our structured parking is going to run around $22,000 per space (for which we will need gap financing obviously). $20,000 is the standard for structured parking. Devon/Hines/Preftakes stated that they couldn't do any better on the parking because they're "already" spending $15,000 per space, right? That's HUGE.

mrokc777
04-14-2015, 05:22 PM
10626 Looks like they are ready to demolish the place.

okclee
04-14-2015, 07:29 PM
10626 Looks like they are ready to demolish the place.
Look at the smiles on their faces too. Someone should write captions as to what they are saying.
Something like... "man Okc is the perfect city for our demolition company, we should move our headquarters here". :wink:

Spartan
04-14-2015, 09:10 PM
It looks like we are about to have the pleasurable experience of the Precision Difference..

The Precision Difference (http://precisiondemolition.com/Precision_Demolition/Brochure.html)

ChrisHayes
04-15-2015, 07:01 AM
So are they getting ready to demolish all the buildings or just one of them?

jn1780
04-15-2015, 07:19 AM
Look at the smiles on their faces too. Someone should write captions as to what they are saying.
Something like... "man Okc is the perfect city for our demolition company, we should move our headquarters here". :wink:

They would be too late. Everything worth their time and effort has already been demolished.

jn1780
04-15-2015, 07:25 AM
So are they getting ready to demolish all the buildings or just one of them?

They may be getting ready, but they can't demolish anything until the lawsuit issue is settled.

gopokes88
04-15-2015, 09:20 AM
They may be getting ready, but they can't demolish anything until the lawsuit issue is settled.

Don't be surprised if they go ahead and demolish it anyway, counter sue saying they had the right to demo it. Tie it up in lawsuits that even if you lose you'll still win because the structure is gone.

jn1780
04-15-2015, 10:10 AM
Don't be surprised if they go ahead and demolish it anyway, counter sue saying they had the right to demo it. Tie it up in lawsuits that even if you lose you'll still win because the structure is gone.

An actual demolition permit hasn't been approved yet.

Bellaboo
04-15-2015, 12:15 PM
They may be getting ready, but they can't demolish anything until the lawsuit issue is settled.

Does the lawsuit include the other buildings also ? Or is it just the bus station ? If it's just the bus station, then nothing's stopping them on the remainder of the site.

Laramie
04-15-2015, 02:28 PM
Is this about Councilman Ed Shadid's legal action that holding up demolition of the bus station?

baralheia
04-15-2015, 04:07 PM
Does the lawsuit include the other buildings also ? Or is it just the bus station ? If it's just the bus station, then nothing's stopping them on the remainder of the site.

I believe it only includes Union Bus Station.

Pete
04-15-2015, 04:12 PM
Yes, only the bus station.

I was by there today and nothing happening at all.

I doubt they will demolish anything on that block until the suit is settled.

rte66man
04-15-2015, 04:17 PM
It looks like we are about to have the pleasurable experience of the Precision Difference..

The Precision Difference (http://precisiondemolition.com/Precision_Demolition/Brochure.html)

Time to get some chains and tie myself to a bulldozer.

Stickman
04-15-2015, 04:50 PM
Time to get some chains and tie myself to a bulldozer.



At least wait till after the Arts Festival
:Smiley122

David
04-16-2015, 09:23 AM
Or start during the festival, with fancy decorative chains.

rlewis
04-16-2015, 11:57 AM
I was downtown about a week and a half ago and I saw a pickup truck from Midwest Wrecking parked in front of Carpenter Square. There was a guy with a clipboard walking around as well. I would bet that they are soliciting bids from the demolition companies right now.

soonerwilliam
04-20-2015, 11:42 PM
Project needs to get started ASAP!!!!

Spartan
05-15-2015, 09:59 PM
By the way, I would just like to point out that Columbus just made a developer do what OKC should have done here. This new project in the Short North (the White Castle-funded and anchored mixed-use loft high-rise) was required to not only retain a historic bldg, but setback the new tower behind the historic facade, and stagger the floor heights to minimize the impact. This project was also naturally subject to a height limit in the historic Short North, which wouldn't be the case in downtown OKC.

http://www.columbusunderground.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/white-castle-02.jpg

Normal cities can make this happen. Boise has a tower setback over a historic building. New York and Europe have truckloads of them. Columbus has a few. OKC can save the Auto Hotel, Greyhound Station, Carpenter Square, and Black Hotel.

Urbanized
05-15-2015, 11:27 PM
Most preservationists would tell you that facadism is a cop out. A building is either worth preserving and activating or it is not.

Just the facts
05-16-2015, 12:06 PM
This is why I am good urbanism preservationist. I don't care if the building is new or old, I just want it to enhance the public realm in which it sits. 499 would be fine with me if it interacted with the street (retail/dining), hid the parking garages from public view, removed the skywalks, had something other than a glass curtain wall, and dumped the large setback. I do think it is an enormous waste of space for the entire block to just be one office tower though. Seems like the they could get more tax revenue generating uses on an entire city block bounded by 4 streets.

SouthsideSooner
05-16-2015, 03:51 PM
By the way, I would just like to point out that Columbus just made a developer do what OKC should have done here. This new project in the Short North (the White Castle-funded and anchored mixed-use loft high-rise) was required to not only retain a historic bldg, but setback the new tower behind the historic facade, and stagger the floor heights to minimize the impact. This project was also naturally subject to a height limit in the historic Short North, which wouldn't be the case in downtown OKC.

http://www.columbusunderground.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/white-castle-02.jpg

Normal cities can make this happen. Boise has a tower setback over a historic building. New York and Europe have truckloads of them. Columbus has a few. OKC can save the Auto Hotel, Greyhound Station, Carpenter Square, and Black Hotel.

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? That entire building is new construction. The only building on the property is a White Castle restaurant that will be torn down...

"White Castle and Borror Properties will present plans to the Victorian Village Commission on Thursday for a property at the northwest corner of N. High Street and W. 2nd Avenue. A White Castle restaurant and a 40-space, city-owned parking lot currently occupy the site."

Here's a link to a story on the original proposal...

White Castle project among Short North developments planned | The Columbus Dispatch (http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2015/04/07/short-north-projects.html)

This link shows the revised proposal with the rendering you posted...

White Castle project in Short North still too big for commissioners - Columbus - Columbus Business First (http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/blog/2015/05/short-norths-white-castle-project-still-too-big.html)

Don't let the truth get in the way of you trying to make a point though... Too funny...

Spartan
05-16-2015, 05:05 PM
The current White Castle (a zero-setback Lustron w a bikeshare station in front) and adjoining parking take up the part of the site up to the balconies. I also underestimated the enormity of his project until I visited the site and saw how it engulfed adjoining buildings on that block. There are legitimate reasons that residents in the Victorian homes behind this are concerned about height, and White Castle and Borror are just trying to get as much height as possible.

I think that last line of your post has appeared at the end of your last 24 responses directed at me.

SouthsideSooner
05-16-2015, 06:39 PM
The current White Castle (a zero-setback Lustron w a bikeshare station in front) and adjoining parking take up the part of the site up to the balconies. I also underestimated the enormity of his project until I visited the site and saw how it engulfed adjoining buildings on that block. There are legitimate reasons that residents in the Victorian homes behind this are concerned about height, and White Castle and Borror are just trying to get as much height as possible.

I think that last line of your post has appeared at the end of your last 24 responses directed at me.

Really? Show me just one other time I've done it. I rarely respond to anything you post.

I really liked the picture of the building and decided to look a little further into it when I discovered that your entire post was pure BS. There is no historic building or façade involved in this project at all. It's new construction to be built on the one acre lot that the White Castle (which will be torn down) and it's parking lot are sitting on and a 40 space surface parking lot owned by the city...

I have no idea why you felt the need to fabricate the narrative in your post.

Spartan
05-16-2015, 10:50 PM
I don't understand what you think was "fabricated" because I'm pretty sure you're wrong, lol.

David
05-17-2015, 07:34 AM
I don't think he is. I was curious last night so I found the site on street view (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.982261,-83.004554,3a,75y,286.08h,87.31t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sYzHDhPUglkXWI6NIGc8P0Q!2e0!6m1 !1e1?hl=en), and the only buildings there are the White Castle that would be torn down and the two existing three story buildings down on the end of the rendering above that aren't a part of the project.

borchard
05-17-2015, 08:27 AM
The picture looks hideous, to me. it looks like a Frankenstein's Monster mishmash of about 5 different styles. Build it, or don't. Tear it down, or don't. Sheesh!... And sometimes it seems the only thing some people are good at is bitching. It reminds of the uproar over the Edge development on 13th and Walker. I had heard that there were several blue hairs and lizard skins in Heritage Hills who had tried to block the project. I guess they enjoyed the vacant lot, with concrete jutting out that was there before. Or maybe they were yearning to go back to the days of having a vacant, rotting hospital there that was frequently used as a drug den.

Spartan
05-17-2015, 10:10 AM
Not sure the point you're trying to make. It would have been nice to save and redevelop the old Mercy Hospital. Wiggin had proposed a bigger and even more monolithic development that was rejected...


I don't think he is. I was curious last night so I found the site on street view (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.982261,-83.004554,3a,75y,286.08h,87.31t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sYzHDhPUglkXWI6NIGc8P0Q!2e0!6m1 !1e1?hl=en), and the only buildings there are the White Castle that would be torn down and the two existing three story buildings down on the end of the rendering above that aren't a part of the project.

Got it, then I am wrong. This is not a life or death matter to me. I guess I'm too busy working on the 60 developments in our pipeline at work to worry about some other developer's problems, and I humbly apologize for the fabrication above, lol. I just have a vague recollection of the site from walking past, but I'll be more familiar once I move out of downtown. I don't mean to sound like a punk but its patently absurd to read some impassioned preach about me fabricating things. I have 11,xxx posts on this sounding board...give me a break.

It says something that they are driven to manufacture a historical connection to the surrounding historic district. It sounds as though all of these development concessions still aren't winning over the neighbors, which is news to me because everyone I know is excited about it. Funny how a new angle can arise from people 1,000 miles away who just want to poke holes in something - which I appreciate.

The larger point is:

Pedestal development is cool. Breaking up massing on a LARGE site is not only cool but also creates value. Thinking outside the BOX in general brings value. OKC's development is noticeably less sophisticated than comparable markets - why else would Milhaus name their first foray "LIFT" ? It's a nod to the fact that they are giving us a lift. OKC's development ether needs to get over this need to only develop monolithic blocks. This is why our downtown is not dynamic.

bombermwc
05-18-2015, 08:38 AM
Just adding that the building discussed above has got to win one of the worst design awards of all time. That is AWFUL to the millionth degree. Much like so many disgusting "modern" designs, it's as if the more we mismatch a design with pieces that don't fit together, the more people think they're great designs. This is the type of crap that is going to be the first to go when we look at what to keep as historical preservation in 100 years. SH&T!!!

Colbafone
05-18-2015, 09:37 AM
On the Trailhead hike yesterday, we passed by the Seiber apartments. I didn't know that it had once been a Motor Hotel. It pains me to see that place, and to know how cool this Motor Hotel could be as a residential building or really anything at all. And everytime I walk by Hotel Black, I see that little atrium type area on the top floor facing South and think what a cool restaurant that would be, especially with Core 2 Shore coming. That would be an awesome view.

Urbanized
05-18-2015, 01:12 PM
Uhhhh...the Sieber already IS a residential building..? Not sure why it would pain you. It is actually one of the nicest housing conversions done in downtown over the past decade.

Urbanized
05-18-2015, 01:12 PM
Sieber Apartments website (http://www.thesieber.com/)

Bullbear
05-18-2015, 01:39 PM
Urbanized. I think you misread his post.
he was saying the sieber being what it is.. it pains him to see the Motor Hotel on this site be demolished when it could be another Sieber.

Urbanized
05-18-2015, 01:47 PM
Ahh...could be. Would make sense.

Colbafone
05-18-2015, 03:14 PM
Urbanized. I think you misread his post.
he was saying the sieber being what it is.. it pains him to see the Motor Hotel on this site be demolished when it could be another Sieber.


Sorry Urbanized, this is what I meant. The Seiber is awesome and I would love to see the Motor Hotel repurposed like the Seiber has been. Sorry for the confusion.

Spartan
05-18-2015, 04:32 PM
Just adding that the building discussed above has got to win one of the worst design awards of all time. That is AWFUL to the millionth degree. Much like so many disgusting "modern" designs, it's as if the more we mismatch a design with pieces that don't fit together, the more people think they're great designs. This is the type of crap that is going to be the first to go when we look at what to keep as historical preservation in 100 years. SH&T!!!

I don't know about this, what kind of architecture do you approve of?

Motley
05-18-2015, 05:58 PM
My initial reaction was that it is far too busy with too many elements, but I notice it somewhat similar to a building in San Diego, so I think the actual building will look far better than the drawing.