Shadid submits appeal resolution on bus station demolition | Red Dirt Report (http://www.reddirtreport.com/red-dirt-news/shadid-submits-appeal-resolution-bus-station-demolition)I like Shadid for this. Hopefully something will come of it!

The DDRC made the decision on this, has the City Council even had a say in it yet?

The Council does not typically have a role in this process which is why Shadid is going this route.

The DDRC makes the decision and the only other hurdle would be an appeal to the Board of Adjustment. This is what happened with Stage Center, but the BoA narrowly voted not to overturn the DDRC's vote.

Similarly with Stage Center, the SandRidge block demo's were much more heavily scrutinized by BOA than DDRC. DDRC doesn't really make nuanced critiques like you'd see in other cities.

Similarly with Stage Center, the SandRidge block demo's were much more heavily scrutinized by BOA than DDRC. DDRC doesn't really make nuanced critiques like you'd see in other cities.

Because the ordinance language regarding demolition is so broad and weak... DDRC would be allowed to be more critical if the ordinance a more clear definition of the demolition criteria.

I have said this before, Shadid is the only member of the council who speaks the language of urbanism.

Well he's 1 of 2 (Salyer) who represents a ward that has any sort of urbanism in its boundaries…It's going to continue to be a very difficult fight for urbanism outside of districts that are self-contained for the most part: Deep Deuce, Midtown, Film Row, etc. The CBD is certainly addressed in the context of the whole of OKC more so than the other districts.

I have said this before, Shadid is the only member of the council who speaks the language of urbanism.

Then why did he try to can the streetcar ?

Well he's 1 of 2 (Salyer) who represents a ward that has any sort of urbanism in its boundaries…It's going to continue to be a very difficult fight for urbanism outside of districts that are self-contained for the most part: Deep Deuce, Midtown, Film Row, etc. The CBD is certainly addressed in the context of the whole of OKC more so than the other districts.

Pettis (Ward 7) has all of Bricktown, Deep Deuce and a good chunk of Core to Shore.

1 of 3, then, and with the caveat that the absolute vast majority of his ward's constituency is another demographic entirely. That will change over time as DD and Bricktown, and the very-inner-NE-side get a massive influx of residents, but for now it remains that the couple thousand residents there are negligible compared to the tens of thousands of residents in the rest of his ward.

The real question ought to be whether or not Meg Salyer is the person to be the real representative for the Urban Core. She seems to be one of the good-guys, but is she really the best that Ward 6 can do?

If only 499 would've ended up looking something like this.... (A new highrise for denver)
10051
Its on the street, theres no public plaza, parking is incorporated.

From a local retail consultant and the founder of Better Block OKC:

Commentary: Community vitality | Oklahoma Gazette (http://okgazette.com/2015/01/21/commentary-community-vitality/)

Then why did he try to can the streetcar ?

Because he reads great authors like Jarrett Walker who understand that true urbanism means having a public transit system that works for everyone. I hope the streetcar is the start to a real transit system, but some suggest it is merely symbolic transit.

From a local retail consultant and the founder of Better Block OKC:

Commentary: Community vitality | Oklahoma Gazette (http://okgazette.com/2015/01/21/commentary-community-vitality/)

That was a very good article and spot on. It is amazing how these older people are so out of touch and that was basically a little proof. The need to be replaced and some bright, young and energetic minds needs to prevail.

Because he reads great authors like Jarrett Walker who understand that true urbanism means having a public transit system that works for everyone. I hope the streetcar is the start to a real transit system, but some suggest it is merely symbolic transit.

Me too, and since they are already in the mix for central Ok governments for consideration then it's possible, even though it's probably a ways out.

But no, in reality Ed was trying to pull a power (I think for Mayoral race) play that eventually failed.

Because he reads great authors like Jarrett Walker who understand that true urbanism means having a public transit system that works for everyone. I hope the streetcar is the start to a real transit system, but some suggest it is merely symbolic transit.

Well again, he should've voiced his concerns without coming off like a jackass and getting David Slane involved to completely overthrow MAPS after failing to stop the streetcar.

That was a very good article and spot on. It is amazing how these older people are so out of touch and that was basically a little proof. The need to be replaced and some bright, young and energetic minds needs to prevail.

It's not older or younger that makes people out of touch. There are plenty of unrealistic and uninformed young as well. The article is right though...replace out of touch persons with Ina-touch persons on committees, commissions, and council seats. It takes effort. We will see if the millenials are willing to organize and work to make it happen or just complain and wait for it to be given to them.

Not for nothing, but how many seats on the council are coming up for grabs in a few weeks? if the truly motivated want to stretch themselves and begin to improve their sphere of influence, it's worth getting even more organized on horseshoe seats than some have been on buildings and roadways.

Here are the council seats up for election in early March:

Ward 2 (Shadid)
Ward 5 (Greenwell)
Ward 6 (Salyer)
Ward 8 (Ryan)

Because the ordinance language regarding demolition is so broad and weak... DDRC would be allowed to be more critical if the ordinance a more clear definition of the demolition criteria.

Why aren't the standards regarding urban massing assumed to outline a policy against demo-ing that massing? I know you've posted the ordinance before, but what is the specific issue?

I'm really curious... I have a hunch that however strong the ordinance were ever to become (not politically realistic though), it would still be considered "too weak" to give the DDRC cover to challenge the growth machine.

Honestly I thought we had the right case against SandRidge back when I was a kid. I still think we had the right case. No additional amount of ammo would have overcome the challenge we were up against. Most people today have to agree we were right about that plaza.

OKCTalk - Preservation group will not appeal downtown demolitions (http://www.okctalk.com/content/104-preservation-group-will-not-appeal-downtown-demolitions.html)

You have to wonder what's the point of their existence if they won't even try.

They probably got their funding threatened again...

They might have just cut out early on this one to avoid the threats being made in the first place.

Why don't we gather facts before making assumptions that may or may not be right? I know it is more fun to be cynical, but let's get the truth first.

The real question ought to be whether or not Meg Salyer is the person to be the real representative for the Urban Core. She seems to be one of the good-guys, but is she really the best that Ward 6 can do?

I talked with Meg at length yesterday. Preservation and urbanity is close to her heart. Folks forget that she personally spent her own money to preserve and restore a significant part of Automobile Alley. She also helped get people like Steve Mason and Mickey Clagg to continue that vision to the rest of the buildings north of her property.

We talked a great deal about preservation and this proposal specifically. She explained to me the real problem is that preservation is a 3-legged stool. It particularly requires the property owner to have a vision for adaptive reuse. The city didn't have much of a negotiating tool as the aren't any Tif dollars involved in the project.

We talked at length about the bike lanes. I didn't see the council meeting this morning but apparently the bike ordinance failed. I am not sure if there was discussion about the bike lanes but it's safe to say that she was alarmed that they might be taken out.

Why don't we gather facts before making assumptions that may or may not be right? I know it is more fun to be cynical, but let's get the truth first.

How dare we speculate.

I talked with Meg at length yesterday. Preservation and urbanity is close to her heart

You know - I am going to bull**** on this. I am sick of people in positions of authority paying lip service to the cause. If she is part of the pro-urbanization contingency in OKC then we might as well fold up the tents and go home now because this development is proof that no one in an elected OKC position is what they say they are. I understand being out-numbered but for goodness sakes - STAND UP AND AT LEAST BE COUNTED!!!

How about you spend a few million saving buildings and then call bull****.

The city didn't have much of a negotiating tool as the aren't any Tif dollars involved in the project.

The same could be said for Stage Center.

Also, the Stage Center owners -- after receiving the demo permit -- came back and asked for TIF dollars later. Nothing to stop Hines from doing the same in this instance.


Not disagreeing with your points, just clarifying.

In response to Kerry- One thing I hate in our culture right now is this HOW FAR RIGHT CAN YOU GO?! HOW FAR LEFT CAN YOU GO?!

Governance is the art of compromise.

When somebody spends millions of their own money preserving properties and then doesn't publicly chastise another private property owner for making urbanity their cause, they are obviously in league. Give me a f+++++g break.

The same could be said for Stage Center.

Also, the Stage Center owners -- after receiving the demo permit -- came back and asked for TIF dollars later. Nothing to stop Hines from doing the same in this instance.


Not disagreeing with your points, just clarifying.

I agree.

You know - I am going to bull**** on this. I am sick of people in positions of authority paying lip service to the cause. If she is part of the pro-urbanization contingency in OKC then we might as well fold up the tents and go home now because this development is proof that no one in an elected OKC position is what they say they are. I understand being out-numbered but for goodness sakes - STAND UP AND AT LEAST BE COUNTED!!!

Those are mighty strong words for someone who still lives in Florida. You shouldn't get to attack those who have made tangible contributions instead of just words. Their risk is greater.

How about you spend a few million saving buildings and then call bull****.

Oh come on. While actually do anything of substance when you can just post on a message board?

Those are mighty strong words for someone who still lives in Florida. You shouldn't get to attack those who have made tangible contributions instead of just words. Their risk is greater.

That is what I am saying though. If she, or someone else, wants to be a luke-warm whatever, then just call yourself that. A much as I don't care for Ed Shadid at least I know what he is going to stand for. Plus, she is not just a random private citizen. She has had the power for years to enact and advance city regulations that reflect her beliefs.

Speaking of Ed:

Ben Felder @benfelder_okg · 4h 4 hours ago
City council votes 7-2 against Shadid's request that city attorney challenge DDRC approval of 499 Sheridan request to demo buildings.

Ben Felder @benfelder_okg · 4h 4 hours ago
Shadid and White were the only votes in favor



Shadid may still pursue an appeal on his own.

Traded emails with David Pettyjohn of Preservation Oklahoma who told me their Board felt it futile to appeal, since the DDRC vote had been so lopsided.

In response to Kerry- One thing I hate in our culture right now is this HOW FAR RIGHT CAN YOU GO?! HOW FAR LEFT CAN YOU GO?!

Governance is the art of compromise.

When somebody spends millions of their own money preserving properties and then doesn't publicly chastise another private property owner for making urbanity their cause, they are obviously in league. Give me a f+++++g break.

Well that's nice. Not much to really fight for now though.

Once seen as essential, downtown parking garages are now being put to the wrecking ball | Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/289955851.html)

Further proves the point that OKC will be behind the trend in just about everything.

I will be curious to see what the occupancy of these parking garages are like when we have an RTA, streetcar, improved bus schedules and light rail established. I know people will choose to drive their own cars, that will never be outlawed, but having all those things will cut down on a need for that much space.

Best quote:


The demise of big garages is part of the continuing search for what makes downtowns work. In the 1960s and 1970s, cities experimented with building pedestrian malls and replacing old buildings with civic buildings or public spaces.

Many of those efforts failed. Or as Murphy put it, "What were designers drinking or smoking in the 1960s?"

This version has a photo gallery.

Parking garages falling to the wrecking ball | The Salt Lake Tribune (http://www.sltrib.com/home/2108889-155/parking-garages-falling-to-the-wrecking)

In OKC there is going to have to be parking so there is a choice. Does the city want structured parking or surface parking? I think structured parking is the lesser of two evils by a longshot. Of course the best solution would be to incorporate the parking at the base of a development or underground, but OKC developers can't seem to figure out how to do it.

I will be curious to see what the occupancy of these parking garages are like when we have an RTA, streetcar, improved bus schedules and light rail established. I know people will choose to drive their own cars, that will never be outlawed, but having all those things will cut down on a need for that much space.

They will generate their own demand and will most likely be full all the time. Just like adding more lanes to a freeway does nothing to relieve congestion, these garages will NOT solve downtown's parking problems. Downtown could have 1 parking space a 6 people would still drive down there to try and park in it.

OKC is trying to solve a problem by using a solution that created the problem in the first place. Downtown parking is a problem because people have to drive cars to get there. The only viable solution is to take the car out of the equation. Any solution that doesn't do that is temporary at best and is nothing more than kicking the can - literally - down the road.

Once seen as essential, downtown parking garages are now being put to the wrecking ball | Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/289955851.html)

If they are done strategically, and not just put up to cover an entire city block (like this development), they can be extremely useful, not only for the weekly workforce, but when there is an event being hosted somewhere nearby and people can shoot into the garage for parking. It works in downtown Tulsa if you have access to them or are willing to pay.


Further proves the point that OKC will be behind the trend in just about everything.

The problem is that we, the common folk, see no reason why there can't be parking built underneath this "tower." OnePlace in downtown Tulsa recently did it, and it's probably the most efficient and best part about the entire development.
This development is, as stated many times already, lazy and stamped by "The Nichols" who wants a glass kingdom around MG.
And their excuse about it being too expensive (yes, that's an excuse with a development such as this) is lame. They can require TIF funding just like everyone else to offset or greatly help with the cost. Boom, there's one parking garage gone on the block under the tower, saving some of the other buildings.

This version has a photo gallery.

Parking garages falling to the wrecking ball | The Salt Lake Tribune (http://www.sltrib.com/home/2108889-155/parking-garages-falling-to-the-wrecking)

In other words, we're still stuck in the 60s while other peer cities have figured it out.

And just yesterday, City Council approved the first step of a new TIF district specifically to fund the Convention Hotel and Convention Garage.

Plus, I know of at least one more big garage planned for just west of the Clayco site.

From https://twitter.com/shanehamp:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8cgX3eCcAE8OdU.jpg:large

The problem here is that Larry Nichols doesn't see anything wrong with it, and no one with power is willing to stand up to Larry Nichols. It's not that people in OKC are stuck in the 60s, people recognize that this is not a good design. We heard the criticism of the block of parking garages at the public hearings. The problem is translating that knowledge into action.

Has anyone done a comparison of cities for parking spaces per employee or per sq ft of office space? How does OKC's current numbers compare to other downtowns? According to the proposal for this project, didn't they claim that OKC was severely lacking in space.

In other words, we're still stuck in the 60s while other peer cities have figured it out.

The whole world has already figured it out. I'll see if I can find it again but a couple years of ago I watched a program on parking in Europe. I posted the video somewhere here on OKCTalk. Here is the deal though, using alternatives to the automobile only works for those who use the alternative. People who still participate in the problem will experience the problem. Promising to relieve congestion or parking issues is where the pro-mass transit advocates miss the boat because people who want to drive will do so no matter how frustrating or expensive it is. What OKC has to do is make the alternatives more of a priority so that those who drive only because they have to can have a choice.

Not gonna lie, that render that Pete just put up, if everything comes through as it's "supposed" to, OKC is gonna have a killer skyline here in a few years. From some angles, it'll look like a slightly miniature replica of Dallas', and I know few people will cringe at that, but most won't.

Take this view, for example (take away reunion tower and just look at the "pyramid effect"):

10067

I don't think our city developers will "learn" or change how we develop urbanity until the streetcar is up and running. Basically, it doesn't exist until it does exist. For Larry Nichols or many others still stuck with development strategies around cars, they will literally have to ride on the system before these development trends change.

Hopefully, some of us will be around long enough to see a wrecking ball attack a few of those garages.

The whole world has already figured it out.

Actually, YOUR whole world has figured it out.

OKC has yet to have adequate downtown population to create an adequate work force for what is already downtown, let alone to create economic growth through substantial and high paying jobs. And, there is yet to be adequate mass trans to shuttle enough people from areas where they live or would like to live. So, we are supposed to believe that if we just eliminate new parking we can continue to add thousands of jobs to our economy downtown. Just add a few bars and restaurants that serve downtowners and that will create economic growth to pay for $200-300 sq ft housing and free income to pay for all the cool meals and drinks?

You can not just imagine things to be true and make it so. Until we have enough housing that appeals to enough workers of all types (not just "cool" 20 yr olds), or a VASTLY different mass trans that the right kind of demographics wants to use, then we are stuck with building parking garages. Fortunately, they can be torn down in 15-20 years when we might actually have a city that doesn't need them. Till then, parking is a requirement and we have been inadequate.

The debate on this project was a fantastic opportunity for social and cultural positioning and I hope you all took full advantage of it on Twitter and Facebook.

Not gonna lie, that render that Pete just put up, if everything comes through as it's "supposed" to, OKC is gonna have a killer skyline here in a few years. From some angles, it'll look like a slightly miniature replica of Dallas', and I know few people will cringe at that, but most won't.

Take this view, for example (take away reunion tower and just look at the "pyramid effect"):

10067

You're damn right about the killer skyline that we are going to have! The only thing is that these historic buildings do not really come in the way of that.

Seriously, if the issue with Devon is that they don't want to pay over $15,000 per parking space (which by the way is sub-prime for structured parking, hence the quality of the Walker facade) then throw as much TIF at them as it takes. How about worthy things for applying TIF?

I can't even begin to analyze how "People don't want to be looking out into the clouds!" (with regards to the height of parking garages) reflects where we stand as a civic culture. Hines is not normally backwards.

... the real problem is that preservation is a 3-legged stool. It particularly requires the property owner to have a vision for adaptive reuse. The city didn't have much of a negotiating tool as the aren't any Tif dollars involved in the project.

That would seem to indicate that the block was on the gallows the minute it was sold to Preftakes (Devon).
Good post, BTW. Thanks for posting it.

Oklahoma City councilman appeals downtown bus station demolition | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-councilman-appeals-downtown-bus-station-demolition/article/5389384)


Councilman Ed Shadid on Friday appealed an architectural review panel’s decision to approve demolition of downtown Oklahoma City’s historic Union Bus Station.

A hearing was set before the city’s Board of Adjustment on March 5, two days after Shadid faces Ward 2 voters in his bid for re-election.

Shadid paid $750 to file his 19-page appeal with the city. Shadid had tried on Tuesday to persuade the city council to file an appeal, but lost on a 7-2 vote.

Shadid said in his appeal that the decision to demolish the bus station contradicted guidelines intended to promote downtown redevelopment “in a manner consistent and compatible” with existing designs.

The city’s Planning Department favored preserving the bus station, and Shadid noted a staff report to the Design Review Committee suggested the bus station’s facade could be refurbished and integrated into the office complex.

I moved a ton of posts here:

http://www.okctalk.com/politics/40021-ed-shadid-city-council.html

I moved a ton of posts here:

http://www.okctalk.com/politics/40021-ed-shadid-city-council.html
Thanks Pete!
Now hopefully it can stay on topic.

Any updates on this project and when it's set to get started?

Not until after the Board of Adjustment hears the appeal on the demo of the bus station next month.

I assume they will reject the appeal, then demolition on all the buildings should start very soon.