Bicycles are an outdated form of transportation other than joy riding and it's best to do shared lanes or you can be like me and ride the trails for the most part.

As a fan of the airplane, I must say that I have bad news for your antiquated and crumbling interstate highway system...

Anywho, as for the events of today...is anybody really surprised? With some of the shenanigans we've seen from city leaders (to say nothing of the state and the feds), I doubt the outcome would be any different. I'm not necessarily saying to throw up our hands and wear sackcloth and ashes, but it'll take fresh, invigorated, engaged blood on both sides on the ballot box...and a fair amount of time. This city may not be there yet, but it would take a quantum leap to get to the ideal. So while it's unfortunate that the buildings will go, I hope they make the new stuff as engaging to downtown as possible.

However, if it should get to the point that I get really fed up with the city, I'm young enough that I can make good on a threat to move out. :Smiley122

Out of curiosity, I researched the ages of the Downtown Design Review Committee:

Betsy Brunsteter, 57
Gigi Faulkner, 57
Chuck Ainsworth, 67
Ike Akinwande, 31
Connie Scothorn, 59
Richard Tanenbaum, 68

Average age is 56.5; all but one are over 57.

Why are we putting developers on this committee? Isn't that like appointing the fox to guard the hen house?

I don't mind this. I have yet to see more than 3 people use that bike lane since it's been there and I am around there all the time. It is hardly used and doesn't need to be there. Bicycles are an outdated form of transportation other than joy riding and it's best to do shared lanes or you can be like me and ride the trails for the most part.

Don't be a troll. This is a definite troll post.

Ya know.... I wonder if we ever were to move Greyhound to Santa Fe Station, if they would give us that sign. It seems absolutely ludicrous that they would hang onto it and incorporate it into a modern, International Style building as some sort of tombstone. I mean, why would anyone do that? Simply adding insult to injury for some people.

I agree completely. Infuriating and patronizing and a vivid example of how much these people are clueless to the values of preservation. It's as if they are waving these signs at people as tokens. How they think having a major, visible intersection in our downtown framed by two massive parking garages is a remotely acceptable idea boggles the mind. `

#whatwouldjeffspecksay?

OKC is doing some really, really bad things right now. The price of oil is not the biggest threat to this city's continued development. We are squandering almost all of our urban design opportunities. We need this historic building fabric, especially while there are still so many surface lots everywhere.

We are also heavily-subsidizing this development. Just like we did the Stage Center demolitions. Which is amazing when you recall that we allowed the OKC Foundation's demo permit to go through so that they could make a speculative land deal, because we did not want to subsidize preserving Stage Center. The subsidy that would have required pales in comparison to 499 Sheridan and OG+E Center.

This is becoming insane. Not only do we lack the backbone to promote better development, but even when subsidies are on the table, we have no interest in bargaining for the best development. The political process is too far out of balance to have legitimacy. When you have a bad record on backing up urban design guidelines, cities risk losing ground against legal attacks.

Once again, the Planning department's recommendation was dismissed. Not much has changed since Russell Claus left. The Chamber and Larry Nichols own this city.

#whatwouldjeffspecksay?

He would say - vote with your feet.

OKC is doing some really, really bad things right now. The price of oil is not the biggest threat to this city's continued development. We are squandering almost all of our urban design opportunities. We need this historic building fabric, especially while there are still so many surface lots everywhere.

We are also heavily-subsidizing this development. Just like we did the Stage Center demolitions. Which is amazing when you recall that we allowed the OKC Foundation's demo permit to go through so that they could make a speculative land deal, because we did not want to subsidize preserving Stage Center. The subsidy that would have required pales in comparison to 499 Sheridan and OG+E Center.

This is becoming insane. Not only do we lack the backbone to promote better development, but even when subsidies are on the table, we have no interest in bargaining for the best development. The political process is too far out of balance to have legitimacy. When you have a bad record on backing up urban design guidelines, cities risk losing ground against legal attacks.

Spartan, what subsidy for 499 Sheridan are you referring to?

Puhlease. Your ideas are the ones that are outdated. Have you seen a picture of Beijing's air quality recently - a dense grey fog. The worst thing that happened in China was abandonment of the bicycle for cars. I know a lot of people who prefer riding bikes or walking and we're spitting in their faces.That is incorrect.

I am 26 and couldn't be happier about all this being approved. Would have liked for them to keep the buildings, but what is going up will be a major upgrade from what we previously had.

Reading all the negativity from posters here about the buildings coming down, I was curious as to if I in the minority in reference to wanting the buildings to come down for this development. Over the past two weeks, I asked 23 people that I knew, ages ranging from 23 to 56 years old, if they were in favor of demolishing the current buildings for the new development. Every single person, ALL 23 OF THEM, were in favor of the demo's if this developments was to be built. I realize its just a small sample size, but what it told me is what i suspected before. Most people are excited about the development, only a small portion of the community is opposed to it. It just so happens, that the people who are against it, are more likely to voice their opinion.

Sad to see them go, but looking forward to the development and what its going to bring to downtown.

How would you compare the level of education of the people you polled and the people on this board in regards to urban issues? Because I could find 23 people in the stands at an OU game and I bet none of them could run an offense.

How would you compare the level of education of the people you polled and the people on this board in regards to urban issues? Because I could find 23 people in the stands at an OU game and I bet none of them could run an offense.

You couldn't find 11 on the field that could run an offense.....lol

That is incorrect.

So having tens of millions of people driving and causing the worst air pollution in the world is a good thing?

So having tens of millions of people driving and causing the worst air pollution in the world is a good thing?

Not to get to far off here, but the worst air pollution in the world is in China, and it's not caused by cars.....

Not to get to far off here, but the worst air pollution in the world is in China, and it's not caused by cars.....Thank you. I have actually been very fascinated with China and as such been studying it. I'm not fascinated with it in a good way either.

With all due respect to Betts, cars contribute VERY little to air pollution and China has an extremely large network of bikers. There are 3x more people that bike in China daily than people that live in the US.

China did not abandon bikes and their air pollution, which is horrible, is not being caused by cars.

So having tens of millions of people driving and causing the worst air pollution in the world is a good thing?Dude, go look at PM2.5 and then go see how Beijing ranks. They have the strictest emissions laws in China. It is NOT solely caused by cars. You're out of your mind. There are so many people that bike to China it is almost a different world. To say that the air pollution is caused by cars is being dishonest. That is like me saying the drop in oil prices was caused by two new rigs that opened up near Brazil and not even mentioning how Saudi Arabia ramped up their oil production.

The main source of air pollution is caused by the coal power plants with cars being the second most contributing factor.

I'm just in shock that people on here are going to desperation of trying to point fingers to China insinuating that we are going to become like them because of wanting to remove a bike lane THAT HARDLY ANYONE USES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! and add a lane to a road.

Dallas has very clear air most of the time, and it has sprawling highways. London has bad air pollution sometimes. Tokyo has bad air pollution. NYC has bad air pollution sometimes. I mean why are we going to single out cities that are expanding in car transit.

499 W Sheridan - Final Thoughts of the Day | News OK (http://newsok.com/499-w-sheridan-final-thoughts-of-the-day/article/5385180)

Dude, go look at PM2.5 and then go see how Beijing ranks. They have the strictest emissions laws in China. It is NOT solely caused by cars. You're out of your mind. There are so many people that bike to China it is almost a different world. To say that the air pollution is caused by cars is being dishonest. That is like me saying the drop in oil prices was caused by two new rigs that opened up near Brazil and not even mentioning how Saudi Arabia ramped up their oil production.

The main source of air pollution is caused by the coal power plants with cars being the second most contributing factor.

I'm am just in shock that people on here are going to desperation of trying to point fingers to China insinuating that we are going to become like them because of wanting to remove a bike lane THAT HARDLY ANYONE USES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! and add a lane to a road.

Dallas has very clear air most of the time, and it has sprawling highways. London has bad air pollution sometimes. Tokyo has bad air pollution. NYC has bad air pollution sometimes. I mean why are we going to single out cities that are expanding in car transit.

+1

That's the funniest thing I've read all day... Touche

Good day for the progress of OKC

And now you're on ignore, troll.

499 W Sheridan - Final Thoughts of the Day | News OK (http://newsok.com/499-w-sheridan-final-thoughts-of-the-day/article/5385180)

As usual, excellent take on this from Steve... Fair and balanced

You know, I'm only 21 and I have a lot to learn in life, but some of the things said on this forum just make my jaw drop. It is absolutely incredible the disconnect and separation from reality that occurs. I think when a certain group of people that are like minded spend too much time around each, they start to believe things are changing towards their wants and desires because they around others that think like them but they fail to realize they are in the minority. I have seen on this website where people say we are in the minority, but do they actually believe that on a subconscious level or are they just saying that to try and tell themselves they are being reasonable.

I understand I am not going to get the kind of highways I desire here and I'm fine with that. I believe we could have better interchanges and road networks without widening one single road or highway and traffic would flow faster and smoother; I also think that is realistic, but no one has the courage to take it on.

I mean I am literally in a state of disbelief at what I read from Betts post for many reasons, the main one being that she seriously went and used China as an example saying look at their air pollution because they no bikes and it's caused by them abandoning cars. Let's just say hypothetically that she was right: what the f#ck does that have to do with us here in OKC, a metro of 1.4 million people sprawled out over 1,000 sqaure miles with a low density--the complete opposite of Chinese cities--removing a bike that I've literally only seen used 3 times and adding a car lane to that particular piece of pavement????? I mean WOW!

Many on here bash Dallas for having large highway, yet look at the massive growth in Dallas. Then we say that highways prevent good growth, lower property values, etc. yet look at property values along 635. Look at property values in Edmond along I-35 than look at them 3 miles from I-35; same thing with a lot of highways. Why is that we claim induced demand always works and use bs examples of adding one lane to already extremely congested highway like the 405(L.A.) that isn't induced demand, it's just common sense. What about Kilpatrick? Why isn't that bumper to bumper every morning and evening like it was sometimes? Now that rarely happens. Same thing with the new Crosstown... Someone tell me that if widened I-35 from downtown OKC to Norman to 12 lanes, 10 lanes plus an HOV lane(each way) that induced demand would kick in and the highway would be bumper to bumper again. You can't. Know why? Because if a couple billion were spent widening that highway to 12 lanes with good quality cement, light-rail down the center connecting to downtown Norman, commuter rail, and a BRT route, you wouldn't have to touch that highway for another 30-50 years. It would entirely solve the problem. It would impress people driving along the highway. New artwork and landscaping would be installed. New development would spur. But oohhhh no that will never happen and would be horrible if it did and blah blah blah....

Why does Europe, a place that a lot of people like to use for good development, and a lot of their countries have huge debt, high-unemployment, and some countries high poverty? I though urbanism was supposed to prevent most of that stuff? Why does Japan, an extremely urbanized country, have one of the highest suicide rates with their lack of disconnected suburban neighborhoods, I mean subdivisions, and cul-de-sacs? Sure, there are some suburbs that are dilated, but if anyone here wants to play ball, show me a suburb like Del City or something that is run down and I'll show you an urban city that over-run with crime and poverty worse than you could ever imagine.

None of this sh!t makes any sense and we have people on here like Sid and Cautromayo that saying they are glad they don't live here because of that but did they fly down here at all and protest or do something to help? Probably not. I'm sure their excuse if they see and respond to this will be 'it wouldn't have done any good.' Just like to all the people that didn't vote against Marry Fallin because she was going to win anyways. The people in this city work for us. Not the other way around. We have the power to kick their asses out if they don't meet our standards and if our council members aren't doing what they're supposed to be and our city is over-run by engineers who only care about fast moving traffic and new construction, then kick the council person or whoever elected them out of office, let them know why they were relieved of their duties, and put a new on in there that supports your beliefs. Spread the word. Campaign. Send letters. Start and advocacy group. Don't just sit on a talk forum with a bunch of other people like you and talk about how the council person(s) are too out of touch.

OKC has amazing potential and while I'm not overjoyed when this building could have been taller(putting the parking garages underneath and floors 3-10), had a better site plan(see KanyeMo's drawing), existing buildings preserved, renovated, and put to use again... but who did anything? We had a preservation group that seems like they were pussies and didn't do anything. We had a company who made their employees feel uncomfortable so they would sign the supporting petition. What the hell did we do besides sign some online petition that probably less than 0.01% of the city new about? Same thing with the Stage Center. We had an awesome piece of art that was torn down and now it might have been for nothing. Did anyone actually go out and stand around it holding a sign trying to save it? Did anyone organize a group? Did anyone chain themselves to it, getting arrested and ending up in the news spreading awareness that it is getting demo'd? What? Is that too crazy? It happens in other cities all the time. Did anyone go door to door handing out pamphlets and trying to explain to people the value and rareness the Stage Center is?

I mean what is your vision of the city? Do anyone ever see me bitching about the lack of Houston like highways in London or NYC? No. Because I like Houston and Dallas because of that. OKC is a car oriented city. The car was developed after the street car and bicycle as faster, more personal, and more efficient form of transportation. While highways might be more costly to build and maintain, that argument is quickly going to become irrelevant soon. Even when I joined, a big argument here was the high gas prices was going to make mass transit more attractive, but the recent news in the gas mileage of cars has quickly put that to rest. With sub-compacts getting 50-70MPG to trucks SUV'S getting 20-30MPG(and rising), better economy, new car ownership is now again rising. This sudden fascination with small urban areas and districts like the Plaza with Millennials is smelling more and more like a fad. I don't think it will go away, but I do suspect we will see a lot of Millennials start moving into the burbs. It has already happened from several people I know.

America is not special in sprawl. The only difference between our sprawl and sprawl in Europe is ours usually has parking in front of the buildings. Europe has it in back. Now, Europe's sprawl is more walkable, yes, but what kind of moron would move outside to the outskirts of city and complain about not being able to walk everywhere? Here in the US, we're just one of the first countries it seems to actually fund large highways giving people the additional option of living out in the green suburbs with 6 lane roads, strip malls, nicer schools, 10 lane highways, etc... which I like. Then we have these groups popping up like weeds complaining about too many highways in a city Dallas that is thriving and the question bears, why not move to a city like San Francisco or NYC if you want good urbanism? Oh, your job is located in Dallas and you can't get a good paying job in the type of city you seem to desire, well that is just downright ironic.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but some of the stuff I hear on here makes no sense to me. I'm moving to L.A. on May 21st to pursue a career in acting, so I'm going to get to experience a different city. I'm going to take a break for awhile as it seems my latest posts are getting on people's nerves, but we need to start stepping up here in OKC or nothing is going to get accomplished. I just hear a lot of talk on this site about needing to do stuff(kind of hypocritical I know) and how bad this is, but I never really see anything and I'm downtown a lot and looking at the news everyday. I never see anything progressive activism like what you hear about in cities like Austin and Portland. We had Friends for a Better Boulevard(which I don't think made one difference in fact made things worse because we are essentially getting the same road, just one less lane and a mile of bike lanes in front of the CC and Park, and a lower speed limit. That will do absolutely nothing for the walkability of the area. It's still a boulevard designed to move a car from point a to point b very quickly and reducing it from 6 to 4 lanes, adding a bike lane a part of it, and even reducing the speed limit doesn't change a thing. At the end of the day, it is still a road designed to move people from point a to point b very fast) and a couple other small projects, but nothing really that will make an impact on a large scale. I'm not trying to dog on the site or the people here, but just the people around the city in general don't seem to do too much about some of these issues.

That is my 2 cents on a lot things and again, if you are offended, sorry, but that's the way I see it currently.

And now you're on ignore, troll.

Tisk, tisk... God forbid that someone presents an alternate opinion to the urbanista's that dominate this forum but represent a small minority in the metro...

The most prolific posters on this forum don't even live here. You could read the post's on this forum and think that it's representative of how our citizens thing and feel but you'd be very wrong...

Oklahoma City panel approves razing nine downtown buildings for a new office tower and two parking garages | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-panel-approves-razing-nine-downtown-buildings-for-a-new-office-tower-and-two-parking-garages/article/5385074)

I really like the balanced approach to this article.

499 W Sheridan - Final Thoughts of the Day | News OK (http://newsok.com/499-w-sheridan-final-thoughts-of-the-day/article/5385180)

One thing I will say is a new tower that is fully occupied will add more to the downtown fabric than the current buildings in their dark state. If they are able to pull off retail in the parking garage, that could end up being a pretty nice block.

Id be interested to know where they get their parking data from on the new Arts District garage. Is it "leased" spaces? Meaning, spaces that companies in the area take for their employees, or is it spaces occupied in a day? I say that because when I was in the Arts garage Monday morning, I went up to the 4th level, and it was only half full. The floors above were vacant, and the "down" ramp spaces on the lower levels were pretty empty as well. There isn't a whole lot that is near that garage right now that needs the space, but that's not to say there wont be in the future. That particular garage doesn't seem to jive with the article.

Now if it's leased spaces, fine. Hey the garage owner makes more for his investment if a car isn't there and you can't overbook the spaces because you never know if it will be full an hour from now.

Im going to keep my fingers crossed that we don't end up with an empty lot or a building half the shell of what's proposed.

I really like the balanced approach to this article.

499 W Sheridan - Final Thoughts of the Day | News OK (http://newsok.com/499-w-sheridan-final-thoughts-of-the-day/article/5385180)

One thing I will say is a new tower that is fully occupied will add more to the downtown fabric than the current buildings in their dark state. If they are able to pull off retail in the parking garage, that could end up being a pretty nice block.

Oh come on, you know better than this. Why do we need nice "balanced" thoughts?

Spartan, what subsidy for 499 Sheridan are you referring to?

Are you trying to say this development is NOT connected to the largest subsidy ask in OKC history? Honestly this 499 and OG+E Center are one and the same, and just as they got one over us through divide and conquer (with a supposedly separate project), they do that with the process all along. Demo, building permit, and then subsidy are all three separate processes in a vacuum.

Tisk, tisk... God forbid that someone presents an alternate opinion to the urbanista's that dominate this forum but represent a small minority in the metro...

Sad, but true.



The most prolific posters on this forum don't even live here. You could read the post's on this forum and think that it's representative of how our citizens thing and feel but you'd be very wrong...
BINGO!

Saving What's Left | News OK (http://newsok.com/saving-whats-left/article/5385219)

Are you trying to say this development is NOT connected to the largest subsidy ask in OKC history? Honestly this 499 and OG+E Center are one and the same, and just as they got one over us through divide and conquer (with a supposedly separate project), they do that with the process all along. Demo, building permit, and then subsidy are all three separate processes in a vacuum.

Do we believe Steve or you Spartan ? Please explain how these are one and the same.

Per Steve's article -

What’s interesting is Hines could have covered such costs by seeking tax increment financing for the parking. But no such request is being made. TIF requests add time to schedules and aren’t sure things. And with a large request being made across the street by Clayco for four towers, yet another TIF request could have jeopardized both deals.

I live here. I live within walking distance of all the buildings slated for destruction. All we're doing is creating a totally sterile CBD that will have a wee bit of foot traffic during the day and is empty by night. I'll be on Auto Alley,in Midtown, Film Row or Bricktown. Amazing how much life those old buildings stimulate.

I live here. I live within walking distance of all the buildings slated for destruction. All we're doing is creating a totally sterile CBD that will have a wee bit of foot traffic during the day and is empty by night. I'll be on Auto Alley,in Midtown, Film Row or Bricktown. Amazing how much life those old buildings stimulate.

I ran by this area last night and I agree. A Republic in the bus station would do more for foot traffic *at night* than anything 499 plans to offer.

I really like the balanced approach to this article.

499 W Sheridan - Final Thoughts of the Day | News OK (http://newsok.com/499-w-sheridan-final-thoughts-of-the-day/article/5385180)

One thing I will say is a new tower that is fully occupied will add more to the downtown fabric than the current buildings in their dark state. If they are able to pull off retail in the parking garage, that could end up being a pretty nice block.

Come on, admit it. You know this won't fly. Where has that ever really worked? It's putting lipstick on a pig. It's the planning equivalent of an architect saying, "Hey, I'll incorporate the old Lunch Box sign into my design. That will be great."

I ran by this area last night and I agree. A Republic in the bus station would do more for foot traffic *at night* than anything 499 plans to offer.

Not sure why a Republic Gastropub still can't go in that corner ?

And hey, once we remove the bike lanes and widen the road, let's remove the cross walks completely and raise the speed limit on Walker to 60. Make it super fast and easy to just pass by this area of town and get out asap.

You know, I'm only 21 and I have a lot to learn in life, but some of the things said on this forum just make my jaw drop. It is absolutely incredible the disconnect and separation from reality that occurs. I think when a certain group of people that are like minded spend too much time around each, they start to believe things are changing towards their wants and desires because they around others that think like them but they fail to realize they are in the minority. I have seen on this website where people say we are in the minority, but do they actually believe that on a subconscious level or are they just saying that to try and tell themselves they are being reasonable.

I understand I am not going to get the kind of highways I desire here and I'm fine with that. I believe we could have better interchanges and road networks without widening one single road or highway and traffic would flow faster and smoother; I also think that is realistic, but no one has the courage to take it on.

I mean I am literally in a state of disbelief at what I read from Betts post for many reasons, the main one being that she seriously went and used China as an example saying look at their air pollution because they no bikes and it's caused by them abandoning cars. Let's just say hypothetically that she was right: what the f#ck does that have to do with us here in OKC, a metro of 1.4 million people sprawled out over 1,000 sqaure miles with a low density--the complete opposite of Chinese cities--removing a bike that I've literally only seen used 3 times and adding a car lane to that particular piece of pavement????? I mean WOW!

Many on here bash Dallas for having large highway, yet look at the massive growth in Dallas. Then we say that highways prevent good growth, lower property values, etc. yet look at property values along 635. Look at property values in Edmond along I-35 than look at them 3 miles from I-35; same thing with a lot of highways. Why is that we claim induced demand always works and use bs examples of adding one lane to already extremely congested highway like the 405(L.A.) that isn't induced demand, it's just common sense. What about Kilpatrick? Why isn't that bumper to bumper every morning and evening like it was sometimes? Now that rarely happens. Same thing with the new Crosstown... Someone tell me that if widened I-35 from downtown OKC to Norman to 12 lanes, 10 lanes plus an HOV lane(each way) that induced demand would kick in and the highway would be bumper to bumper again. You can't. Know why? Because if a couple billion were spent widening that highway to 12 lanes with good quality cement, light-rail down the center connecting to downtown Norman, commuter rail, and a BRT route, you wouldn't have to touch that highway for another 30-50 years. It would entirely solve the problem. It would impress people driving along the highway. New artwork and landscaping would be installed. New development would spur. But oohhhh no that will never happen and would be horrible if it did and blah blah blah....

Why does Europe, a place that a lot of people like to use for good development, and a lot of their countries have huge debt, high-unemployment, and some countries high poverty? I though urbanism was supposed to prevent most of that stuff? Why does Japan, an extremely urbanized country, have one of the highest suicide rates with their lack of disconnected suburban neighborhoods, I mean subdivisions, and cul-de-sacs? Sure, there are some suburbs that are dilated, but if anyone here wants to play ball, show me a suburb like Del City or something that is run down and I'll show you an urban city that over-run with crime and poverty worse than you could ever imagine.

None of this sh!t makes any sense and we have people on here like Sid and Cautromayo that saying they are glad they don't live here because of that but did they fly down here at all and protest or do something to help? Probably not. I'm sure their excuse if they see and respond to this will be 'it wouldn't have done any good.' Just like to all the people that didn't vote against Marry Fallin because she was going to win anyways. The people in this city work for us. Not the other way around. We have the power to kick their asses out if they don't meet our standards and if our council members aren't doing what they're supposed to be and our city is over-run by engineers who only care about fast moving traffic and new construction, then kick the council person or whoever elected them out of office, let them know why they were relieved of their duties, and put a new on in there that supports your beliefs. Spread the word. Campaign. Send letters. Start and advocacy group. Don't just sit on a talk forum with a bunch of other people like you and talk about how the council person(s) are too out of touch.

OKC has amazing potential and while I'm not overjoyed when this building could have been taller(putting the parking garages underneath and floors 3-10), had a better site plan(see KanyeMo's drawing), existing buildings preserved, renovated, and put to use again... but who did anything? We had a preservation group that seems like they were pussies and didn't do anything. We had a company who made their employees feel uncomfortable so they would sign the supporting petition. What the hell did we do besides sign some online petition that probably less than 0.01% of the city new about? Same thing with the Stage Center. We had an awesome piece of art that was torn down and now it might have been for nothing. Did anyone actually go out and stand around it holding a sign trying to save it? Did anyone organize a group? Did anyone chain themselves to it, getting arrested and ending up in the news spreading awareness that it is getting demo'd? What? Is that too crazy? It happens in other cities all the time. Did anyone go door to door handing out pamphlets and trying to explain to people the value and rareness the Stage Center is?

I mean what is your vision of the city? Do anyone ever see me bitching about the lack of Houston like highways in London or NYC? No. Because I like Houston and Dallas because of that. OKC is a car oriented city. The car was developed after the street car and bicycle as faster, more personal, and more efficient form of transportation. While highways might be more costly to build and maintain, that argument is quickly going to become irrelevant soon. Even when I joined, a big argument here was the high gas prices was going to make mass transit more attractive, but the recent news in the gas mileage of cars has quickly put that to rest. With sub-compacts getting 50-70MPG to trucks SUV'S getting 20-30MPG(and rising), better economy, new car ownership is now again rising. This sudden fascination with small urban areas and districts like the Plaza with Millennials is smelling more and more like a fad. I don't think it will go away, but I do suspect we will see a lot of Millennials start moving into the burbs. It has already happened from several people I know.

America is not special in sprawl. The only difference between our sprawl and sprawl in Europe is ours usually has parking in front of the buildings. Europe has it in back. Now, Europe's sprawl is more walkable, yes, but what kind of moron would move outside to the outskirts of city and complain about not being able to walk everywhere? Here in the US, we're just one of the first countries it seems to actually fund large highways giving people the additional option of living out in the green suburbs with 6 lane roads, strip malls, nicer schools, 10 lane highways, etc... which I like. Then we have these groups popping up like weeds complaining about too many highways in a city Dallas that is thriving and the question bears, why not move to a city like San Francisco or NYC if you want good urbanism? Oh, your job is located in Dallas and you can't get a good paying job in the type of city you seem to desire, well that is just downright ironic.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but some of the stuff I hear on here makes no sense to me. I'm moving to L.A. on May 21st to pursue a career in acting, so I'm going to get to experience a different city. I'm going to take a break for awhile as it seems my latest posts are getting on people's nerves, but we need to start stepping up here in OKC or nothing is going to get accomplished. I just hear a lot of talk on this site about needing to do stuff(kind of hypocritical I know) and how bad this is, but I never really see anything and I'm downtown a lot and looking at the news everyday. I never see anything progressive activism like what you hear about in cities like Austin and Portland. We had Friends for a Better Boulevard(which I don't think made one difference in fact made things worse because we are essentially getting the same road, just one less lane and a mile of bike lanes in front of the CC and Park, and a lower speed limit. That will do absolutely nothing for the walkability of the area. It's still a boulevard designed to move a car from point a to point b very quickly and reducing it from 6 to 4 lanes, adding a bike lane a part of it, and even reducing the speed limit doesn't change a thing. At the end of the day, it is still a road designed to move people from point a to point b very fast) and a couple other small projects, but nothing really that will make an impact on a large scale. I'm not trying to dog on the site or the people here, but just the people around the city in general don't seem to do too much about some of these issues.

That is my 2 cents on a lot things and again, if you are offended, sorry, but that's the way I see it currently.

I am not offended, you make many valid points and your commentary shows that you really care. Stay passionate OKC needs more citizens like you. I hope that you will return once you become a star (not meant to mock).

And hey, once we remove the bike lanes and widen the road, let's remove the cross walks completely and raise the speed limit on Walker to 60. Make it super fast and easy to just pass by this area of town and get out asap.

It is only a matter of time before they start turning streets back into one-way.

Come on, admit it. You know this won't fly. Where has that ever really worked? It's putting lipstick on a pig. It's the planning equivalent of an architect saying, "Hey, I'll incorporate the old Lunch Box sign into my design. That will be great."

Yea, I'm always skeptical of retail space thrown into projects like this.
I fear the space won't be fully utilized, we have some new strip malls all over Tulsa, and while those are standalone, some of them are still trying to fill out the spaces after years of sitting there.

And, I don't mean this to be an insult to these businesses and industries (I don't mean to criticize someone's profession or work), but I'm going to call it like I see it...
These spaces are good for maybe a Subway, a nail salon, and maybe a cell phone store. That's the other problem we see with these retail options thrown into these projects. We won't get local food chain restaurants or stores, or something like a Walgreens/CVS, we'll get the aforementioned. Is that really good for the vibe in downtown? Maybe, maybe not. Are they sustainable businesses? Maybe, maybe not.

Yea, I'm always skeptical of retail space thrown into projects like this.
I fear the space won't be fully utilized, we have some new strip malls all over Tulsa, and while those are standalone, some of them are still trying to fill out the spaces after years of sitting there.

And, I don't mean this to be an insult to these businesses and industries (I don't mean to criticize someone's profession or work), but I'm going to call it like I see it...
These spaces are good for maybe a Subway, a nail salon, and maybe a cell phone store. That's the other problem we see with these retail options thrown into these projects. We won't get local food chain restaurants or stores, or something like a Walgreens/CVS, we'll get the aforementioned. Is that really good for the vibe in downtown? Maybe, maybe not. Are they sustainable businesses? Maybe, maybe not.

I hate to say it but until there are more people living in downtown OKC you are right. Real, quality retail needs rooftops. This is why the Clayco residential towers are so important and why I really hope they don't get scaled back or scrapped.

Yea, I'm always skeptical of retail space thrown into projects like this.
I fear the space won't be fully utilized, we have some new strip malls all over Tulsa, and while those are standalone, some of them are still trying to fill out the spaces after years of sitting there.

And, I don't mean this to be an insult to these businesses and industries (I don't mean to criticize someone's profession or work), but I'm going to call it like I see it...
These spaces are good for maybe a Subway, a nail salon, and maybe a cell phone store. That's the other problem we see with these retail options thrown into these projects. We won't get local food chain restaurants or stores, or something like a Walgreens/CVS, we'll get the aforementioned. Is that really good for the vibe in downtown? Maybe, maybe not. Are they sustainable businesses? Maybe, maybe not.

Agree. That's likely all the retail/restaurants we'll get here. Again, to support retail or nighttime restaurants you have to have foot traffic. Everyone walking here will be walking to their cars. It will look just like the rest of the CBD at night. Empty.

It is only a matter of time before they start turning streets back into one-way.

I just walked all over downtown Seattle in late August, and it's full of one way streets. I liked the visit to Seattle, but I was surprised with the one way streets.

Not sure why a Republic Gastropub still can't go in that corner ?

Because it doesnt appear any of the retail spots are near big enough for a Republic, who I would imagine would want something in the 5,000sf range.

Because it doesnt appear any of the retail spots are near big enough for a Republic, who I would imagine would want something in the 5,000sf range.

It looks as if they are reserving 3,900 sq ft for restaurant space on the east end of the block within 499. The bus station retail only has 2,600 listed.

It looks as if they are reserving 3,900 sq ft for restaurant space on the east end of the block within 499. The bus station retail only has 2,600 listed.

They have that labeled as retail with a restaurant on the second level. That may be flexible, but not sure. My guess would be Republic was far more interested in going into a unique building like the bus station vs. 499, especially if the only restaurant is not on ground level.

I just walked all over downtown Seattle in late August, and it's full of one way streets. I liked the visit to Seattle, but I was surprised with the one way streets.

Like many of our older cities, they can get away with the one-way streets because their block sizes are small. A typical block in in downtown Seattle is 240'X240'. In OKC it is 300'X400' and the superblocks are 700'x900'. Anyhow, I predict we will see a return to one-way streets soon enough.

It looks as if they are reserving 3,900 sq ft for restaurant space on the east end of the block within 499. The bus station retail only has 2,600 listed.

RePUBlic was interested because of the opportunity the bus station represented, not because of the location.

After the decision was made to build new, they withdrew their interest.

Agree. That's likely all the retail/restaurants we'll get here. Again, to support retail or nighttime restaurants you have to have foot traffic. Everyone walking here will be walking to their cars. It will look just like the rest of the CBD at night. Empty.

Aren't there two new residential towers going up in the block across the street?

Aren't there two new residential towers going up in the block across the street?

Maybe, but maybe not. Bets were hedged yesterday......

BTW, lost in all the demolition talk yesterday, the rep from Hines told the DDRC "we will not be seeking public assistance for the garages".

Note that they did not say "for this project", which leads me to believe they may in fact seek tax dollars for the office building.


If they come back and ask for that later, this will be the second time someone has played the investment / economic development card to gave demolition approval, then later came back and claimed the new construction they had originally proposed requires public subsidy. The first time was Clayco/OG&E/Stage Center.

BTW, lost in all the demolition talk yesterday, the rep from Hines told the DDRC "we will not be seeking public assistance for the garages".

Note that they did not say "for this project", which leads me to believe they may in fact seek tax dollars for the office building.


If they come back and ask for that later, this will be the second time someone has played the investment / economic development card to gave demolition approval, then later came back and claimed the new construction they had originally proposed requires public subsidy. The first time was Clayco/OG&E/Stage Center.

This is one more reason demolition should be tied to building permit. All of that should be ironed out BEFORE demolition. Bait and switch has been a problem in this city for a long, long time.

Tisk, tisk... God forbid that someone presents an alternate opinion to the urbanista's that dominate this forum but represent a small minority in the metro...

The most prolific posters on this forum don't even live here. You could read the post's on this forum and think that it's representative of how our citizens thing and feel but you'd be very wrong...

Actually, in your desperate effort to discount the posters that do live in OKC proper, you've neglected to consider how many people live in Edmond or Moore and thus shouldn't have a say, either.

So glad we don't have to have something like this getting in the way of our parking garages:

The Grey Is Now Open in Savannah's Old Greyhound Bus Terminal - Eater Atlanta (http://atlanta.eater.com/2015/1/5/7495339/the-grey-savannah-menu-mashama-bailey)

What a waste!

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/g5k2mkZEjW7W4sdZmzjCdXbPF0w=/83x0:556x355/800x600/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/45154948/thegrey.0.0.jpeg

http://www.billdawers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TheGrey-51.jpg

Something like that would be a truly unique and unexpected experience in OKC for visitors and residents alike. It's a shame the powers that be here aren't more forward thinking. The bus station is really the only thing on that block that I really care to see saved. The Hotel Black and Motor Hotel aren't anything too special but the bus station has so much potential to be something cool and unexpected. Like Stage Center and the Bricktown Flyer however, unique and unexpected isn't something that works in OKC.

The saddest thing is how EASILY they could've incorporated at least some of the motor hotel or the hotel black (like this) 9998
And how expensive would the bus station have been to actually move/renovate? (Was there ever any possibility of it being moved/renovated besides the pub)

Think about where people want to hang out these days. Auto Alley, Midtown, 23rd St., the Plaza District are booming. Kitchen 324 is in a renovated building. Maybe we need to not worry about restaurant and retail space in these new buildings because what appeal will they have anyway? Who will want to go to a second floor restaurant when you can hang out on a street side patio at one of these great old buildings? How many people would rather go to Vast than Broadway 10? Would you rather go to the bar at the Aloft or the O bar. Old buildings have a unique appeal. When you go through our CBD and really look, it is actually quite shocking to see how much of the available land and how many buildings are dedicated to parking. I'm not sure there was much hope for that area anyway, once I really look at it.

Think about where people want to hang out these days. Auto Alley, Midtown, 23rd St., the Plaza District are booming. Kitchen 324 is in a renovated building. Maybe we need to not worry about restaurant and retail space in these new buildings because what appeal will they have anyway? Who will want to go to a second floor restaurant when you can hang out on a street side patio at one of these great old buildings? How many people would rather go to Vast than Broadway 10? Would you rather go to the bar at the Aloft or the O bar. Old buildings have a unique appeal. When you go through our CBD and really look, it is actually quite shocking to see how much of the available land and how many buildings are dedicated to parking. I'm not sure there was much hope for that area anyway, once I really look at it.

Precisely. If this how these guys want to build their utopia, I've given up. Let them build their ideal urban environment full of parking garages, inactive storefront windows, sky bridges and tunnels, and token retail.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will actually experience urban environments that the small and medium sized investors are making in real districts.

None of those districts woud exist with out the strong CBD that we have

Think about where people want to hang out these days. Auto Alley, Midtown, 23rd St., the Plaza District are booming. Kitchen 324 is in a renovated building. Maybe we need to not worry about restaurant and retail space in these new buildings because what appeal will they have anyway? Who will want to go to a second floor restaurant when you can hang out on a street side patio at one of these great old buildings? How many people would rather go to Vast than Broadway 10? Would you rather go to the bar at the Aloft or the O bar. Old buildings have a unique appeal. When you go through our CBD and really look, it is actually quite shocking to see how much of the available land and how many buildings are dedicated to parking. I'm not sure there was much hope for that area anyway, once I really look at it.

I wouldn't go quite so far to say that. Though the Braniff Building is nice, that's not why I go to Kitchen 324. I go there because it's a good restaurant. If they were somehow convinced to pack up and move to 499 Sheridan, I wouldn't stay away because of any shortcomings the building may have. If they put something in there that I like, I'll make a point of it to stop by.

None of those districts woud exist with out the strong CBD that we have

This post was good for a nice laugh. Pure troll.

Actually, in your desperate effort to discount the posters that do live in OKC proper, you've neglected to consider how many people live in Edmond or Moore and thus shouldn't have a say, either.

There's nothing desperate about stating the obvious and your post is pretty weak.

Downtown is for all of us living in the metro, all 1.3 million of us... The ones that voted in the MAPS projects, paid the sales taxes, have used our disposable dollars supporting everything downtown as it's developed, provide the work force and many of who will become residents...but the majority of us have no desire to live downtown and never will...

We love our city and its suburban lifestyle and really don't ask for much... an easy commute when we come in to work and play and a good place to park when we get there.

Over a million square feet of new class A office space and plentiful parking in a great spot along the new streetcar route trumps the loss of the Stage Center and the buildings on this block for suburbanists...but it will be for urbanists as well. These developments will be a great benefit to every district surrounding the CBD where retail and residential make much more sense and are well on their way.