Am I missing something? Why does Walker need to be 4 lanes?!

Why don't people under 30 have more of an influence on stuff like this? Because besides this site, younger people were more mobilized and vocal over the idea that yet another bar wouldn't be able to open on 23rd than they were about significant destruction and demolition of downtown OKC. You wouldn't see something like this trending on twitter or facebook, or in an article on the lost ogle.

Am I missing something? Why does Walker need to be 4 lanes?!

So the escape from downtown can be faster for about an hour each day.

Whats the point of having your headquarters built downtown if you want to attract employees who would rather live out in the suburbs? Why aren't they interested in building a downtown that people would actually want to be in? And not just come there because there job is there & then leave at 5:00 pm? Soooo frustrating.

For 1 no matter the design of this building the huge majority of employees will be coming from the burbs.

I am friends with several bok employees. That work north of memorial and they are not happy about the future downtown commute.

This is called reality.

Well guys, its been real but this decision has me wondering if I even give a crap anymore. If BoulderSooner and the other suspects are happy with the city they are building for themselves who am I to stand in the way? OKC might have just fallen into Howard Kunstler's category of places not worth caring about.

Well bye

Part of me would like to have seen the two hotel buildings preserved and integrated into the new complex and am somewhat disappointed that they won't be. However, I'm looking forward to the new development going up along with the OG&E center. Hopefully with oil prices eventually recovering, the rest of the complex will be built in a shorter time frame. I don't understand how the loss of a few buildings could cause some people to want to leave the city or not come back to it. There's so much more going on in the city for the good, that overpowers this loss. The city is over 600 square miles. Much larger than a block. I'm a fairly newcomer to the city and still love the city and don't plan on leaving anytime soon. It still beats where I came from by 1000 times.

Great post

Regarding Millennials, someone tweeted about there being a paternalistic streak with the leadership of this city.

"Dan ‏@DanForPrez (https://twitter.com/DanForPrez) 20m20 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/DanForPrez/status/555810828641792001) @OKCTalk (https://twitter.com/OKCTalk) It's probably more of a paternalistic valuing more than a meaningful valuing of millenials and their interests"

So often true. And not just with some of the leadership in the city (DDRC a great example), but also the major employers.

But let's be honest here, this is about a small group of people who have a different set of 'values' who have the money to see their vision through. Their vision revolves around lots of parking, cars, and weather protection. They happen to own the land and they happen to have the money. Not a conspiracy just dismaying that their values are so different.

Part of me would like to have seen the two hotel buildings preserved and integrated into the new complex and am somewhat disappointed that they won't be. However, I'm looking forward to the new development going up along with the OG&E center. Hopefully with oil prices eventually recovering, the rest of the complex will be built in a shorter time frame. I don't understand how the loss of a few buildings could cause some people to want to leave the city or not come back to it. There's so much more going on in the city for the good, that overpowers this loss. The city is over 600 square miles. Much larger than a block. I'm a fairly newcomer to the city and still love the city and don't plan on leaving anytime soon. It still beats where I came from by 1000 times.

It isn't about this one block. It is about the decision process being so awful and being easily persuaded by talking heads in the community. OKC has a chance to do things correctly and meet new urbanism standards - and just when things are looking promising - garbage like this gets approved with little-to-zero official opposition.

The city is over 600 square miles.

For the population and tax base, that is unsustainable and the reason we need to seriously reconsider last century's development methods. It is one of the primary reasons I think we need to make downtown a more complete city. It has improved quite a bit since I moved here but still could be much better. The potential of this project to be part of rebuilding downtown into one with a better balance of commercial, retail, and residential is squandered by taking the lazy way out and letting a very narrow interest dictate the development. Taking into account property ownership rights, this project could be much better than it is going to be. There could have been a couple modifications that would have combined the best of old and new and extended a sustainable urban vibrancy westward. Suburbia will not be going away anytime soon, but it really doesn't pay its way long term.

The Growth Ponzi Scheme ? Strong Towns (http://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/)

Mayor Cornett said it best and I paraphrase, "What's the use of being a suburb of nothing?". It seems we haven't quite grasped that yet.

It isn't about this one block. It is about the decision process being so awful and being easily persuaded by talking heads in the community. OKC has a chance to do things correctly and meet new urbanism standards - and just when things are looking promising - garbage like this gets approved with little-to-zero official opposition.

This kind of answers my question on are people really THIS upset over one block OR is it the way it all happened ever since Preflakes started buying the properties. Seems to be more of the later with the former not easing anything.

Regarding Millennials, someone tweeted about there being a paternalistic streak with the leadership of this city.

"Dan ‏@DanForPrez (https://twitter.com/DanForPrez) 20m20 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/DanForPrez/status/555810828641792001) @OKCTalk (https://twitter.com/OKCTalk) It's probably more of a paternalistic valuing more than a meaningful valuing of millenials and their interests"

So often true. And not just with some of the leadership in the city (DDRC a great example), but also the major employers.

But let's be honest here, this is about a small group of people who have a different set of 'values' who have the money to see their vision through. Their vision revolves around lots of parking, cars, and weather protection. They happen to own the land and they happen to have the money. Not a conspiracy just dismaying that their values are so different.

Parking and cars are the reality of having a large business in downtown OkC. And that is not changing anytime soon. That is the reality. Of the situation.

And the group of people is not nearly as small as you might think

Part of me would like to have seen the two hotel buildings preserved and integrated into the new complex and am somewhat disappointed that they won't be. However, I'm looking forward to the new development going up along with the OG&E center. Hopefully with oil prices eventually recovering, the rest of the complex will be built in a shorter time frame. I don't understand how the loss of a few buildings could cause some people to want to leave the city or not come back to it. There's so much more going on in the city for the good, that overpowers this loss. The city is over 600 square miles. Much larger than a block. I'm a fairly newcomer to the city and still love the city and don't plan on leaving anytime soon. It still beats where I came from by 1000 times.

If you don't mind me asking where did you move from?

I also concur that I don't understand why this decision would influence somebody to leave the city or to not return. This is the way things have always been done here; it's nothing new.

Why don't people under 30 have more of an influence on stuff like this? Because besides this site, younger people were more mobilized and vocal over the idea that yet another bar wouldn't be able to open on 23rd than they were about significant destruction and demolition of downtown OKC. You wouldn't see something like this trending on twitter or facebook, or in an article on the lost ogle.

For people that don't read OKC talk and just ready Steve's news article, a Church meaning no more bars on 23rd seemed like a likely outcome. If they believed that based on reading that article, they have a right to be pissed about it. I'm glad the pastor set the record straight in the gazette.

Also there is a difference between young people getting pissed about something on facebook and participating in discussions on a design or planning committee. Your comparison is apples to oranges.

Glad to see the demo approved for all buildings. It's great that the City of Oklahoma City is being progressive, and has the willingness to move forward. There is a time and place for everything. Those buildings served Oklahoma City well for their time, but there is always an end. Bring on the shiny new towers.

Glad to see the demo approved for all buildings. It's great that the City of Oklahoma City is being progressive, and has the willingness to move forward. There is a time and place for everything. Those buildings served Oklahoma City well for their time, but there is always an end. Bring on the shiny new towers.

Tower - no 's'. And parking garage induced dead space.

Am I missing something? Why does Walker need to be 4 lanes?!

It doesn't. And hopfully enough will speak out against it so it isn't

Your comparison is apples to oranges.

I don't agree. I saw posting after post of people claiming they were calling the city to complain about the church, calling the church, threatening protests, etc. They were much more mobilized over a bar than they were over this. And that's nothing new.

It doesn't. And hopfully enough will speak out against it so it isn't

There will be another petition circulated among Devon and BOK employees to demand it though.

It isn't about this one block. It is about the decision process being so awful and being easily persuaded by talking heads in the community. OKC has a chance to do things correctly and meet new urbanism standards - and just when things are looking promising - garbage like this gets approved with little-to-zero official opposition.

I understand your frustration with the process but the other poster is correct. They got one block in the CBD wrong, but many more things are going right in the urban districts outside the CBD. To say that this decision is a reason to move away or not move back, when taking into consideration all the good developments that have come over the last few years, is way extreme. To each his own, but I wouldn't make my decision to move based on one city decision.

I understand your frustration with the process but the other poster is correct. They got one block in the CBD wrong, but many more things are going right in the urban districts outside the CBD. To say that this decision is a reason to move away or not move back, when taking into consideration all the good developments that have come over the last few years, is way extreme. To each his own, but I wouldn't make my decision to move based on one city decision.

The nuts in the building at 23rd & Lincoln are more of a reason to move than this even though I am disappointed by the outcome.

I don't agree. I saw posting after post of people claiming they were calling the city to complain about the church, calling the church, threatening protests, etc. They were much more mobilized over a bar than they were over this. And that's nothing new.

Again, how is a handful of people freaking out on the Internet any comparison to having a few qualified younger people on committees in the city?

There will be another petition circulated among Devon and BOK employees to demand it though.

That was to build on private property. Changes to streets is a totally different matter

Parking and cars are the reality of having a large business in downtown OkC. And that is not changing anytime soon. That is the reality. Of the situation.

And the group of people is not nearly as small as you might think

I don't disagree. Where I personally have a problem with it is that there seems to be a complete disregard for the impact that the streetcar will have on the location of parking garages. Regardless of this debate regarding the history of the buildings, we should have a legitimate land use debate.

The streetcar is rarely, if ever, been even discussed by a developers as a mechanism to place garages further away or as a way to distribute the load. Very disappointing. It was pointed out to me today that it wasn't even in the renderings for any of these projects.

Regarding Devon and the other tenants... pretty simple. They are a huge economic engine that creates lots of cash in our broader economy and that is enabling preservation and business creation in other parts of the city. There are a ton of historic buildings that would not otherwise be restored and renovated if our economy wasn't doing so well. Quite frankly, that broad cash flow is helping Millennials in many parts of the city employ place making practices, preservation, and better land use.

It's just a shame that values seem so different between groups and that there isn't more pliability. The bike lanes being removed was a pretty poignant signal to a lot of people regardless of the rest of it.

Again, how is a handful of people freaking out on the Internet any comparison to having a few qualified younger people on committees in the city?

Because the majority of young people in the city aren't interested or invested in having their voice heard on projects like this.

That was to build on private property. Changes to streets is a totally different matter

Devon doesn't "own" this property either so it really isn't that much different.

How profoundly disappointing. Integration into the existing context of these perfectly fine buildings could've made this a very cool project and could have been a lively area.

How does the appeal process go about?

I also concur that I don't understand why this decision would influence somebody to leave the city or to not return. This is the way things have always been done here; it's nothing new.

Because the ramification is much larger than this one decision. There was a hope among many that OKC had decided to embrace the future of the American city, but it turns out they decided to embrace 1986 instead. This might surprise some, but a lot of people are not interested in living in a 2015 version of 1986.

Out of curiosity, I researched the ages of the Downtown Design Review Committee:

Betsy Brunsteter, 57
Gigi Faulkner, 57
Chuck Ainsworth, 67
Ike Akinwande, 31
Connie Scothorn, 59
Richard Tanenbaum, 68

Average age is 56.5; all but one are over 57.

I was curious on the criteria for the members of the committee...


Three (3) members shall be a combination of registered architects, landscape
architects, urban planners or licensed civil engineers, all with
demonstrated knowledge of urban design principles. Two (2) members
shall be licensed real estate professionals. One (1) member shall be a
member of the Urban Design Commission. One (1) member shall be a
resident citizen of the City of Oklahoma City.

It seems like the only position that would likely be able to be filled by someone younger would be the real estate professionals or the resident citizen position (depending on how they judge "demonstrated knowledge of urban design principles").

I understand your frustration with the process but the other poster is correct. They got one block in the CBD wrong, but many more things are going right in the urban districts outside the CBD. To say that this decision is a reason to move away or not move back, when taking into consideration all the good developments that have come over the last few years, is way extreme. To each his own, but I wouldn't make my decision to move based on one city decision.

The problem that is bigger than one city block is HOW this city allows decisions to be made. OKC leaders like Mick Cornett have been spouting that OKC is a city where young people can change the city. Well, where was he during this entire process? Has he done anything recently to indicate this is really how OKC works? If I moved to OKC I'd be active in trying to fight for a more walkable, sustainable, and democratic city, but the way this whole thing played out showed that OKC is only interested in grassroots decision-making for PR purposes. The real city leaders seem to see the "creative class" as a demographic necessity on paper OKC, but they're clearly a demographic that's not taken seriously. I'm not interested in participating in a city with rigged processes because we've seen over and over again that the real decision-makers are behind the curtain. And this isn't the only example (see how the most popular Boulevard option was ignored among other examples).

Because the ramification is much larger than this one decision. There was a hope among many that OKC had decided to embrace the future of the American city, but it turns out they decided to embrace 1986 instead. This might surprise some, but a lot of people are not interested in living in a 2015 version of 1986.

I agree with what you are saying. It's disappointing the powers that be here are still stuck in the 1980s. However, if living in a vibrant, dense, urban city filled with revitalized historic building stock is a priority, then OKC was probably never your city to begin with. This decision doesn't really change much at all so I don't see why it would make or break somebody's decision to live here.

Not sure if that was supposed to be joke - but the answer to that question is Yes. There is now zero doubt that civic leaders think Houston is what OKC should look like when it grows up.

Hey Just anything but facts. I see Houston on here, where is Jacksonville, Florida?

The Future's Most Walkable Cities: Prepare to Be Surprised - 1 (http://time.com/money/2887232/the-futures-most-walkable-cities-prepare-to-be-surprised/)

Ya know.... I wonder if we ever were to move Greyhound to Santa Fe Station, if they would give us that sign. It seems absolutely ludicrous that they would hang onto it and incorporate it into a modern, International Style building as some sort of tombstone. I mean, why would anyone do that? Simply adding insult to injury for some people.

Ya know.... I wonder if we ever where to move Greyhound to Santa Fe Station if they would give us that sign. It seem absolutely ludicrous that they would hang onto it and incorporate it into a modern, International Style building as some sort of tombstone. I mean, why would anyone do that? Simply adding insult to injury for some people.

That's exactly what I was thinking. And gleefully done.

Downtown Houston in 2015 is very nice and I would be proud to live there. They have done a complete 180 from the massive parking craters that defined it in the 1980s. If that's OKC's future then it is an exciting future.

Because the majority of young people in the city aren't interested or invested in having their voice heard on projects like this.

I would argue that more young people are interested in having their voice heard than older people on projects like this. The MAJORITY of the city probably isn't interested in much of what goes on downtown.

I would argue that more young people are interested in having their voice heard than older people on projects like this. The MAJORITY of the city probably isn't interested in much of what goes on downtown.

At least we agree on the latter part of your statement.

I'm originally from the rust belt city of Canton Ohio. There hasn't been a new mid or high rise built there since the 50s or 60s. It's dominated by slum neighborhoods and has been losing population since it peaked at the 1950 census and is half the size that it once was. The only thing good about it is the football hall of fame

Ya know.... I wonder if we ever where to move Greyhound to Santa Fe Station if they would give us that sign. It seem absolutely ludicrous that they would hang onto it and incorporate it into a modern, International Style building as some sort of tombstone. I mean, why would anyone do that? Simply adding insult to injury for some people.

This. And what does it mean that the sign will create a "conversation with John Rex"? Something like Teacher, what is that thing on that building over there? Oh, it was on another building that they tore down to build that building. Oh. OK.

Hey Just anything but facts. I see Houston on here, where is Jacksonville, Florida?

The Future's Most Walkable Cities: Prepare to Be Surprised - 1 (http://time.com/money/2887232/the-futures-most-walkable-cities-prepare-to-be-surprised/)

San Francisco as # 4 ? I've been to that hilly sob and not so sure I agree with the list.

Should take a look at what Miami is doing since it is projected to move from 13th to 4th most walkable.

For some reason, the idea of using the bus station sign on a building that caused it's demolition reminded me of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Potaending.jpg

Stuff like this makes me glad I left.
Me too. So sad. But OKC doesn't want us back, apparently.

Hey, that's not true about all of OKC.

I am 26 and couldn't be happier about all this being approved. Would have liked for them to keep the buildings, but what is going up will be a major upgrade from what we previously had.

Reading all the negativity from posters here about the buildings coming down, I was curious as to if I in the minority in reference to wanting the buildings to come down for this development. Over the past two weeks, I asked 23 people that I knew, ages ranging from 23 to 56 years old, if they were in favor of demolishing the current buildings for the new development. Every single person, ALL 23 OF THEM, were in favor of the demo's if this developments was to be built. I realize its just a small sample size, but what it told me is what i suspected before. Most people are excited about the development, only a small portion of the community is opposed to it. It just so happens, that the people who are against it, are more likely to voice their opinion.

Sad to see them go, but looking forward to the development and what its going to bring to downtown.

Trying to be positive here, one thing to think about is that there are plenty of cities with much of their history intact that aren't good places to live. A lot of rust belt cities fall into that category. Preservation in and of itself doesn't make a great city. I personally am looking forward to this tower going up along with the new OG&E tower across the street. It should really enhance the atmosphere at MBG to now be surrounded by towers on the west side as well. While the historic structures certainly had great potential, these new towers will add vibrancy to downtown and the skyline in their own way. One thing people need to accept though is that OKC will never be Austin. It will never be Portland or Seattle. It will never be the kind of city people from across the country flock to for a hip, postcard urban experience. Those who want that kind of city will probably always be frustrated in OKC no matter how much progress is made. The cultural difference is just too great. What OKC should shoot for is to be a city that offers great economic opportunity along with a great quality of life. As long as OKC is a land of economic opportunity that offers enough urban amenities that young professionals will not turn down a job here just because its OKC, the city should continue to grow and the rest should fall into place.

I am 26 and couldn't be happier about all this being approved. Would have liked for them to keep the buildings, but what is going up will be a major upgrade from what we previously had.

Reading all the negativity from posters here about the buildings coming down, I was curious as to if I in the minority in reference to wanting the buildings to come down for this development. Over the past two weeks, I asked 23 people that I knew, ages ranging from 23 to 56 years old, if they were in favor of demolishing the current buildings for the new development. Every single person, ALL 23 OF THEM, were in favor of the demo's if this developments was to be built. I realize its just a small sample size, but what it told me is what i suspected before. Most people are excited about the development, only a small portion of the community is opposed to it. It just so happens, that the people who are against it, are more likely to voice their opinion.

Sad to see them go, but looking forward to the development and what its going to bring to downtown.

:iagree::congrats::congrats::yourock:

Best post I've seen all day. We can be happy this was approved and sad the buildings are going, not everything is black and white.

Trying to be positive here, one thing to think about is that there are plenty of cities with much of their history intact that aren't good places to live. A lot of rust belt cities fall into that category. Preservation in and of itself doesn't make a great city. I personally am looking forward to this tower going up along with the new OG&E tower across the street. It should really enhance the atmosphere at MBG to now be surrounded by towers on the west side as well. While the historic structures certainly had great potential, these new towers will add vibrancy to downtown and the skyline in their own way. One thing people need to accept though is that OKC will never be Austin. It will never be Portland or Seattle. It will never be the kind of city people from across the country flock to for a hip, postcard urban experience. Those who want that kind of city will probably always be frustrated in OKC no matter how much progress is made. The cultural difference is just too great. What OKC should shoot for is to be a city that offers great economic opportunity along with a great quality of life. As long as OKC is a land of economic opportunity that offers enough urban amenities that young professionals will not turn down a job here just because its OKC, the city should continue to grow and the rest should fall into place.

bchris is the one being positive in all of this and I agree with him.

Will took this one today:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7a8vZBCIAAl3Bx.jpg:large

Hey Just anything but facts. I see Houston on here, where is Jacksonville, Florida?

The Future's Most Walkable Cities: Prepare to Be Surprised - 1 (http://time.com/money/2887232/the-futures-most-walkable-cities-prepare-to-be-surprised/)

Good point, my time would be much better spent closer to home.

Everyone harping on the people who are dissappointed are only focusing on the "save the buildings" argument.

This isn't just about demolishing old structures for no reason.
It is also about the decision process.
It is also about the developing parking garage graveyard.
It is also about lack of mixed-use.
It is also about the streetlife and walkability (see skybridges).
It is also about widening of Walker to 4 lanes now (and now removing bike lanes).

All of these things people are upset about, are basic essentials to create successful new urbanism. All of these things are being completely ignored by the very people who are in place to promote new urbanism in OKC. This very project's approval is the epitome of what is wrong with DDRC and OKC leaders. The preach of these people is about all of the things I listed above, but the practice is about none.

^

Everything is presented as completely binary: Either approve exactly what we propose or all progress is halted and you are an obstructionist!

If there was a real, meaningful public process and a commission with any backbone/teeth, there would be compromise. Not the constant ultimatum of, "Either accept this as is or we'll take our money / company / ball and go to Houston!"

Everyone harping on the people who are dissappointed are only focusing on the "save the buildings" argument.

This isn't just about demolishing old structures for no reason.
It is also about the decision process.
It is also about the developing parking garage graveyard.
It is also about lack of mixed-use.
It is also about the streetlife and walkability (see skybridges).
It is also about widening of Walker to 4 lanes now (and now removing bike lanes).

All of these things people are upset about, are basic essentials to create successful new urbanism. All of these things are being completely ignored by the very people who are in place to promote new urbanism in OKC. This very project's approval is the epitome of what is wrong with DDRC and OKC leaders. The preach of these people is about all of the things I listed above, but the practice is about none.

Yes, this! When we left in 1995, we were sick of the good old boy network being so massive here (just one of the reasons we left). When we moved back in 2009, we were told (on here, I believe, by some folks) that the good old boy network wasn't really in place any longer and things were different. Bullsh*t, still alive and well and the old rich white guys are still running things. Disgusting, insulting, and just plain wrong.

Steve's OKC Central ‏@stevelackmeyer 2m2 minutes ago
David Box: Traffic engineer says Walker needs to be converted from 2 to 4 lanes (remove bike lanes). W/ expansion, level of svc poorI don't mind this. I have yet to see more than 3 people use that bike lane since it's been there and I am around there all the time. It is hardly used and doesn't need to be there. Bicycles are an outdated form of transportation other than joy riding and it's best to do shared lanes or you can be like me and ride the trails for the most part.

Everyone harping on the people who are dissappointed are only focusing on the "save the buildings" argument.

This isn't just about demolishing old structures for no reason.
It is also about the decision process.
It is also about the developing parking garage graveyard.
It is also about lack of mixed-use.
It is also about the streetlife and walkability (see skybridges).
It is also about widening of Walker to 4 lanes now (and now removing bike lanes).

All of these things people are upset about, are basic essentials to create successful new urbanism. All of these things are being completely ignored by the very people who are in place to promote new urbanism in OKC. This very project's approval is the epitome of what is wrong with DDRC and OKC leaders. The preach of these people is about all of the things I listed above, but the practice is about none.

A suburbanites dream. They can speed in & out of downtown like they were never even there. If only those friends for a better boulevard brats would've left their mini highway alone....

Every OKC millenial that I know, many of whom have been vital in OKC's renaissance, are really disheartened by this. As a millenial who always hoped to move back to OKC, I'm not really sure I'm interested anymore. It's not just that the buildings are coming down, but the corrupt process. I thought OKC was a city moving in a direction that I could believe in, but the city government is clearly more oligarchical than democratic. It's shameful to make dishonest arguments as were made by those who really make decisions in OKC. And as Pete has meticulously shown, this is not the only area where decisions are being made behind closed doors without concern for how it's done.

Wow, I think I am technically a millennial and I really don't care much. They could have saved the buildings, but whatever. We're getting a new and taller building, so that is a plus, It is guaranteed to get built.

I do wish we could have saved them, but hey, it is what it is.

I don't mind this. I have yet to see more than 3 people use that bike lane since it's been there and I am around there all the time. It is hardly used and doesn't need to be there. Bicycles are an outdated form of transportation other than joy riding and it's best to do shared lanes or you can be like me and ride the trails for the most part.

Puhlease. Your ideas are the ones that are outdated. Have you seen a picture of Beijing's air quality recently - a dense grey fog. The worst thing that happened in China was abandonment of the bicycle for cars. I know a lot of people who prefer riding bikes or walking and we're spitting in their faces.

if only those friends for a better boulevard brats would've left their mini highway alone....

lol

... Bicycles are an outdated form of transportation other than joy riding ...

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Dang Plu, open that young little mind of yours.