The conflict is that this was the Mayor's annual State of the City speech. If it was just a random chamber meeting then of course they should be free to distribute whatever petition full of lies that they please.



I see it's time for the "private property rights should triumph" discussion for the nth time. The very fact that Devon has to go in front of multiple city committees to get approval for these demolitions should tell you that you are simply not correct about private property rights versus the public interest. Admittedly, what the public interest actually is could be up for discussion, but that doesn't appear to be the point you are making.

I don't think anyone, including the Chamber, should assume that the public interest is not the business of the public. If property rights always triumph, then why do we have zoning laws, covenants, design review committees. Clearly it has long been recognized that a city is more than just a collection of individuals whose impact on one another is irrelevant.

The majority of the public doesn't care about these buildings.

+1

The majority of the public doesn't pay attention. They didn't pay attention when we destroyed the Baum Building, the Criterion, the old City Hall, etc. either. That doesn't mean, with hindsight it was anything but a terrible idea to tear them down either. Those who serve the city are supposed to act in the best interest of the city, not just cater to the interests of a few who happen to have money and the political power it clearly bestows.

The majority of the public doesn't care about these buildings.

If a majority did would that trump private property rights?

If a majority did would that trump private property rights?

What majority, Kerry? OKC is a very car culture, suburban city and it always will be... We don't feel a great loss for these buildings and are beyond thrilled about 700,000 sf of new class A office space being build on this corner and all the convenient parking spaces along with it... throw in the Clayco development and we couldn't be happier...

You wrote earlier that you thought we should be emulating downtown Chattanooga which has virtually no CBD...and we're making great strides in doing just that in all the districts surrounding the CBD...

No major city in the U.S. has every block in their CBD wrapped in retail and restaurants... not Manhattan, not Chicago... none...



...

Well, if you don't look into what is the best plan and have an informed opinion then you'll accept what the three at the top shove down your throat. I'm not happy with that. Sheeple... SMDH!

Well, if you don't look into what is the best plan and have an informed opinion then you'll accept what the three at the top shove down your throat. I'm not happy with that. Sheeple... SMDH!


I have a very informed opinion... I'm for well over a million sf of class A office space between the two developments. Truly historic. Creating the most iconic corner in the state...and the job creation, new restaurants and retail that these projects will provide...

So..just to redirect this a little....Tell me how significant downtown retail can be successful in the next 5 to 10 years without suburbanites driving in to spend our disposable income to support them...

I dont know if this has been posted on here yet, but since Larry and the gang got free press from the chamber and solicited a petition and a link to it was even included in the Daily Oklahoman: - here is the petition from Preservation Oklahoma: https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-city-downtown-design-review-committee-preserve-oklahoma-city-s-history

499 Sheridan (http://www.preservationok.org/499-sheridan.html)

I have a very informed opinion... I'm for well over a million sf of class A office space between the two developments. Truly historic. Creating the most iconic corner in the state...and the job creation, new restaurants and retail that these projects will provide...

So..just to redirect this a little....Tell me how significant downtown retail can be successful in the next 5 to 10 years without suburbanites driving in to spend our disposable income to support them...

Iconic? What's gettig built could be in any city anywhere in the world. There's nothing unique or iconic about it.

And no one is saying suburbanites abandon downtown... I think people are arguing that downtown shouldn't be built from a suburban perspective. Can't at least the urban areas be built in an urban way... Is that really too much to ask? We're talking about a small area here...

I have a very informed opinion... I'm for well over a million sf of class A office space between the two developments. Truly historic. Creating the most iconic corner in the state...and the job creation, new restaurants and retail that these projects will provide...

So..just to redirect this a little....Tell me how significant downtown retail can be successful in the next 5 to 10 years without suburbanites driving in to spend our disposable income to support them...

Crap! Just lost a whole big post. Must sleep. Will address tomorrow. Bottom line, a. Very selfish use of space.

I have a very informed opinion... I'm for well over a million sf of class A office space between the two developments. Truly historic. Creating the most iconic corner in the state...and the job creation, new restaurants and retail that these projects will provide...

So..just to redirect this a little....Tell me how significant downtown retail can be successful in the next 5 to 10 years without suburbanites driving in to spend our disposable income to support them...

No one is saying don't build the office space - we are saying build it better so that the street is inviting to retailers and pedestrians. They can build all the glass store fronts they want but if all the people are walking in skywalks from their car to their cubicale who is going to patronize the retailers? Also, retail can't survive on 9-5 office workers - period. If they could downtown OKC would already have a thriving retail presence.

No one is saying don't build the office space - we are saying build it better so that the street is inviting to retailers and pedestrians. They can build all the glass store fronts they want but if all the people are walking in skywalks from their car to their cubicale who is going to patronize the retailers? Also, retail can't survive on 9-5 office workers - period. If they could downtown OKC would already have a thriving retail presence.

So you're telling us that housing in the CBD is the real key ?

The majority of the public doesn't care about these buildings.

Its not necessarily all about saving these buildings, although that does play a big part. Its also about what we are replacing them with, massive garages that hurt the urban fabric of a key block of downtown. If they were going to build another tower like 499 Sheridan on the SW corner, then I wouldnt have much issue with tearing down the bus station. But not for a concrete mountain.

I saw this on twitter that exposes the hypocrisy of some of this, Im paraphrasing it here...people use the argument of "functionally obsolete" and "not economically viable" to tear down an old building but then need millions of dollars in public assistance (TIF) to make the replacement buildings "economically viable."

Its not necessarily all about saving these buildings, although that does play a big part. Its also about what we are replacing them with, massive garages that hurt the urban fabric of a key block of downtown. If they were going to build another tower like 499 Sheridan on the SW corner, then I wouldnt have much issue with tearing down the bus station. But not for a concrete mountain.

I saw this on twitter that exposes the hypocrisy of some of this, Im paraphrasing it here...people use the argument of "functionally obsolete" and "not economically viable" to tear down an old building but then need millions of dollars in public assistance (TIF) to make the replacement buildings "economically viable."

Except for 499 Sheridan, no TIF is being requested, IIRC.

So you're telling us that housing in the CBD is the real key ?

Absolutely. If it was up to me I would have to seriously consider only giving tax money to residential projects or the residential component of mixed-use projects. Instead of trying to lure retailers and employers spend the money on humans, and let the retailers and employers follow them back downtown. It is the exact same strategy that produced urban sprawl in the first place - except in reverse, and we see how well subsidizing residential urban sprawl worked in relocating an entire population of people. It was the largest migration of people in human history. The big difference is that we would have to get 30,000 people to live in an area 1/6 the size of how those 30,000 people live now - and you can only do that using urban design principles (a concept totally lost on the 'usual suspects').

What majority, Kerry? OKC is a very car culture, suburban city and it always will be... We don't feel a great loss for these buildings and are beyond thrilled about 700,000 sf of new class A office space being build on this corner and all the convenient parking spaces along with it... throw in the Clayco development and we couldn't be happier...

You wrote earlier that you thought we should be emulating downtown Chattanooga which has virtually no CBD...and we're making great strides in doing just that in all the districts surrounding the CBD...

No major city in the U.S. has every block in their CBD wrapped in retail and restaurants... not Manhattan, not Chicago... none...



...

Why did you even quote his post if you weren't going to answer his question? Hypothetically speaking, if a majority did care about these buildings would that trump private property rights?

The meeting is just starting...

Looks like Ben Felder is live tweeting from it again.

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okg for those that are interested in following along.

Edit: Looks like Steve is as well: https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer

The popularity of the malls peaked in the 90s. OKC has four major malls, Quail Springs, Penn Square, North Park & Crossroads; that a lot of malls for a city of our size.

I'm no fan of I. M. Pei or what OKC Urban Renewal of the 60s did to our city:

Opportunity does exist for OKC to develop retail in the CBD & Bricktown. I. M. Pei was correct, when Oklahoma City built the metro-concourse street tunnels downtown; it killed the street life of our city. The original Galleria Mall concept proposed as part of the 'Pei plan' would have brought retail develop downtown; It would have also killed the street traffic.

Retail development will have a challenge downtown-Bricktown. The Bass-Pro shop's development didn't spark any retail development other than its own. Oklahoma City Outlet Mall Shoppes' derailed a piece of the retail development pie.

Just don't see any retail coming to the CBD unless you can develop a strip area for retail downtown. High class retail shoppers will continue to patronize cities like Tulsa & Dallas for their shopping experience.

Looks like Ben Felder is live tweeting from it again.

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okg for those that are interested in following along.

Edit: Looks like Steve is as well: https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer

From Ben:

Clayco presenting to committee on its OG Energy Plaza. Has already said lower oil prices will impact timing of some construction.

OKC is not alone in lacking high-end or specialty retail downtown. Charlotte doesn't have a department store downtown. Most of their upscale retail is concentrated around Southpark Mall, which is about 5 miles or so south of downtown Charlotte. What Charlotte has that OKC doesn't is adequate retail to support the population living downtown. If you live in downtown Charlotte you don't have to drive to the suburbs for basic necessities like you do in OKC. They have a CVS and Harris Teeter right in their CBD. Just outside the CBD there is a Trader Joe's and an urban Target. If downtown OKC retail can get at least to that level I would say it would be doing pretty well.

Of course downtown Charlotte probably has 3-4 times the number of people living in it as downtown OKC does and with major retail, rooftops are everything.

I. M. Pei was correct, when Oklahoma City built the metro-concourse street tunnels downtown; it killed the street life of our city. The original Galleria Mall concept proposed as part of the 'Pei plan' would have brought retail develop downtown; It would have also killed the street traffic.


100% correct. One only needs to look at two places in Center City Philadelphia, Walnut Street with its sidewalk facing retail and The Mall at East Market, after 5PM. Separated by only a few blocks but worlds apart.

Watch this video for more information of the demise of the shopping mall and why street based retail will be the future (and then keep that in mind with this crap from Devon).
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000324309#.

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 9s10 seconds ago
Cost per parking space doubles when you put a parking lot under building, even more if underground, developer says.

Steve's OKC Central ‏@stevelackmeyer 5m5 minutes ago
Tom D'arcy with Hines saying few hundred spaces in new garages for overflow at Devon Energy Center.

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 1m1 minute ago
Larry Nichols now talking about Devon's support for more parking in downtown.

Seems like there was some contradictory information regarding the OGE north residential tower? Seems to me the prospect of it is kind of shaky. If this is the case, I think its pretty safe to assume the south tower has a very slim chance of coming about.

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 1m1 minute ago
35 min into presentation and we are still talking parking, not presentation on design aspect or how projects will fit in downtown.

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 31s31 seconds ago
Getting the amount of parking the developers want is possible without removing bus station, city says.

Hines now proposing to include bus station sign on parking garage.

From https://twitter.com/JR_MollzFlem :

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7aBigwCMAAWO8r.jpg:large

Here is an adjusted view of that image:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hines011515a.jpg

WILLIAM CRUM @WILLIAMCRUM · 7m 7 minutes ago
Architect: 499 W Sheridan changes "meaningful," come at cost to client; bus station sign preserved & creates "conversation" with Rex school.

100% correct. One only needs to look at two places in Center City Philadelphia, Walnut Street with its sidewalk facing retail and The Mall at East Market, after 5PM. Separated by only a few blocks but worlds apart.

Watch this video for more information of the demise of the shopping mall and why street based retail will be the future (and then keep that in mind with this crap from Devon).
Retail mogul: Tech converging with brick & mortar (http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000324309#).

Amazingly it is done in cities all over the country not named OKC. Another example of OKC doing things by cutting corners.

Molly M. Fleming ‏@JR_MollzFlem 1m1 minute ago
Speaking of existing structures:
"These structures - charming as they may be - are way beyond their economic life."
-architect Jon Pickard

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 9s10 seconds ago
Cost per parking space doubles when you put a parking lot under building, even more if underground, developer says.

Amazingly it is done in cities all over the country not named OKC. Another example of OKC doing things by cutting corners.

I meant for my last post to be in response to this- my bad.

Molly M. Fleming ‏@JR_MollzFlem 1m1 minute ago
Speaking of existing structures:
"These structures - charming as they may be - are way beyond their economic life."
-architect Jon Pickard

I can't believe he expects people to buy that.

OMG save the sign!

Interestingly the buildings have went from "functionally obsolete" to now not economical feasible...

Here is an adjusted view of that image:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hines011515a.jpg

That's lame to be kind. Throwing a bus station sign on the side of a parking garage is pretty much a pat on the head. I really think the city needs to stand its ground on this corner particularly. It appears they could "wrap" the garage around the Union Bus Station and increase the number of levels to get the desired capacity. They could even build the garage fairly close to the bus station as long as they reserve a few slots for whatever business goes into the station. Doing this would break up the canyon of parking garages and likely satisfy many of the people opposing the current plan.

^
It would also go a long way toward making Walker something other than a blank wall of parking garages.

^
It would also go a long way toward making Walker something other than a blank wall of parking garages.

Exactly. I might even go so far as to suggest the building itself could be built around Hotel Black in a similar fashion. You might even get a few more floors if done that way. You still lose the Auto Hotel and Carpenter Square, but I can actually believe they are less "economically feasible" than the other two.

That's lame to be kind. Throwing a bus station sign on the side of a parking garage is pretty much a pat on the head. I really think the city needs to stand its ground on this corner particularly. It appears they could "wrap" the garage around the Union Bus Station and increase the number of levels to get the desired capacity.They could even build the garage fairly close to the bus station as long as they reserve a few slots for whatever business goes into the station. Doing this would break up the canyon of parking garages and likely satisfy many of the people opposing the current plan.

A pat on the head is the nice of way of putting it.
"A slap in the face" or "throwing us a measly bone" would probably qualify this a little more.

Their first revision was expanding the retail footage on the parking garage.
Now, they're considering this as a token to the efforts and feedback put forth from those requesting some type of preservation. I don't think they're taking this revision as seriously because it'll reach a point where people will be more than willing to request to just keep it off, then Hines will fire back saying "we tried to appease you!"

Every thought I had about Pickard Chilton and Hines have been downgraded severely. This development is lazy at best and their arrogance (perhaps circulating from Nichols?) is stinking up this entire project. Parking garages are nice and necessary, yes, I agree. And you'll need them to draw business to downtown. However, this entire block will be dominated by parking garages. It'd be one thing if the tower was actually going to be the dominating factor, but it won't be. The garages will be, and that's sad.

As to their comments about the buildings being obsolete, and now economically passed their usage, does anyone want to walk them over to Bricktown?

The majority of the public doesn't pay attention. They didn't pay attention when we destroyed the Baum Building, the Criterion, the old City Hall, etc. either. That doesn't mean, with hindsight it was anything but a terrible idea to tear them down either. Those who serve the city are supposed to act in the best interest of the city, not just cater to the interests of a few who happen to have money and the political power it clearly bestows.

As aposed to catering to the few that want to force a property owner to save building

Steve's OKC Central ‏@stevelackmeyer 1m1 minute ago
"This city has an amazing history of preserving buildings and districts" - attorney David Box.

Boulder it's not about saving every building. It's getting the best usage out of this site downtown. It could be a bunch of parking lots and it would be acceptable to ask why its necessary to build two large parking garages and a tower to cover the majority of a city block. Regardless of saving building there are better site plans that could be employed to make a better use of this block and could potentialy allow for development in the future. It's not forcing him to save buildings, it's requiring him to hold to a higher standard on development downtown.

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 2m2 minutes ago
Developers present petition with over 2,600 signatures supporting 499 development and removal of current buildings.

Steve's OKC Central ‏@stevelackmeyer 1m1 minute ago
"This city has an amazing history of preserving buildings and districts" - attorney David Box.

All depends on how far you go back. 20 years 30 years. 50 a hundred?

2600 signatures in favor of the current plan? Shocker.

Boulder it's not about saving every building. It's getting the best usage out of this site downtown. It could be a bunch of parking lots and it would be acceptable to ask why its necessary to build two large parking garages and a tower to cover the majority of a city block. Regardless of saving building there are better site plans that could be employed to make a better use of this block and could potentialy allow for development in the future. It's not forcing him to save buildings, it's requiring him to hold to a higher standard on development downtown.

Any new tower downtown is going to require massive parking. That is a fact.

And ground floor interaction like what is provided makes a real difference

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 2m2 minutes ago
Developers present petition with over 2,600 signatures supporting 499 development and removal of current buildings.

6,000 employees at Devon and 1,500 at State of the City address alone.

How many did the opposition have?

6,000 employees at Devon and 1,500 at State of the City address alone.

How many did the opposition have?

So far, 635. https://www.change.org/p/oklahoma-city-downtown-design-review-committee-preserve-oklahoma-city-s-history

All depends on how far you go back. 20 years 30 years. 50 a hundred?
hahahahahahahahahahahahhaah

The total signatures approving demolition is sort of like going to the home side of an OU/OSU game and getting signatures on who wants their team to win.

The total signatures approving demolition is sort of like going to the home side of an OU/OSU game and getting signatures on who wants their team to win.

Without the coercion tactic of "Oh ****, my boss might see this." No. No pressure there.

Without the coercion tactic of "Oh ****, my boss might see this." No. No pressure there.

I was told by a Devon employee that even though he was not for the demolitions he might sign the petition anyway out of fear of people within the company noticing his name being absent.

Said Devon isn't vindictive in any way but there was a general feeling among employees it would be in their best interest to sign, regardless of their personal feelings about everything.

Also mentioned people are particularly paranoid due to falling oil prices and the tightening job market in the energy industry.

This whole tower should be renamed. Pete, can you change the name on this forum to the Parking garage project with a bonus 27 story building? The garages will dominate, and we will have a uninspiring building to go along with it. The block should look amazing when it is done. (sarcasm). What a bunch of cronyism. I wish they could build around the Black building making it both retail and residential and more floors to the tower. That would be a much better idea.

Steve's OKC Central ‏@stevelackmeyer 2m2 minutes ago
David Box: Traffic engineer says Walker needs to be converted from 2 to 4 lanes (remove bike lanes). W/ expansion, level of svc poor

Ben Felder ‏@benfelder_okg 3m3 minutes ago
In speaking about concerns of elem. school, Box says "They put a school downtown. They knew that." Do the developers know that?

Steve's OKC Central ‏@stevelackmeyer 42s42 seconds ago
@benfelder_okg As of two years ago, Nick Preftakes was promising the bus station was not going to be torn down. That's what school knew.

This project appears to be a done deal with a few modifications.

This project appears to be a done deal with a few modifications.

I think that's been the case for quite some time.