Is that part of the boulevard (western, classes, Reno) at grade or raised? Seems like that’d be a ridiculous amount of intersections if it was.
Classen will be premaritally closing. If you wish to continue to Classen, you will need to merge onto Western and then go back to Classen.

Technically, neither road goes all the way through. Western merges onto Classen and Classen merges onto Western. Depending on which direction your going.

Sorry if this has been answered already, but how long will Western/Classen be closed as they build the blvd bridge over it?

Sorry if this has been answered already, but how long will Western/Classen be closed as they build the blvd bridge over it?

I don't know the actual timeline for the project but if I was going to make a Vegas style bet on it... I'd bet 6 years.

Sorry if this has been answered already, but how long will Western/Classen be closed as they build the blvd bridge over it?

As long as it takes to get the new alignment from Reno to Sheridan done. If they just stick something temporary down it won't be long at all. That's what the original sequencing in the plans called for.

Over Western, Classen doesn't go thru, as the blvd is coming down to grade for a diagonal intersection with Reno.

Okay that makes a bit more sense. I swore there used to be a map of these details, but it must be buried somewhere in this thread.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/blvdwest031218.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/blvdwest031218b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/blvdwest031218c.jpg

Pete - Help me get my bearings...
The top perspective is looking east, showing the Boulevard going over Western (shown by green boxes in the diagram)?
The bottom perspective is also looking east, showing the Boulevard intersecting Reno between Francis & Shartel?

Pete - Help me get my bearings...
The top perspective is looking east, showing the Boulevard going over Western (shown by green boxes in the diagram)?
The bottom perspective is also looking east, showing the Boulevard intersecting Reno between Francis & Shartel?

Correct.

Pete beat me to it.

So really it appears as though western will dead end into a cul de sac and classes will cross over and change into western. Sure are continuing the trend of confusing streets downtown.

So really it appears as though western will dead end into a cul de sac and classes will cross over and change into western. Sure are continuing the trend of confusing streets downtown.

What a disaster.

Lol at the cul-de-sac...smh.

6 years? I got the over...

Am I reading that right that I will no longer be able to access the boulevard from klien because culdesac?

Am I reading that right that I will no longer be able to access the boulevard from klien because culdesac?

No, that cul-de-sac is on Western.

Klein won't be affected is is slightly west.

Ah okay, makes sense. Technically worse but doesn't impact my commute.

So really it appears as though western will dead end into a cul de sac and classes will cross over and change into western. Sure are continuing the trend of confusing streets downtown.

I don't know. I think having a north/south Blvd actually have direct access to the interstate makes sense to me. I think it would have made more sense though if there was an OKC Blvd/ Classen interchange and they bridged over Reno.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/blvdwest031218.jpg




This makes me crazy..

I don't know. I think having a north/south Blvd actually have direct access to the interstate makes sense to me. I think it would have made more sense though if there was an OKC Blvd/ Classen interchange and they bridged over Reno.

I suppose I was referring to how in some spots one road can change the name from block to block. A lot of people I know that don't frequent downtown too often refer to streets by location, as in what it's near than by it's actual name. I too have never bothered to learn names other than ones like Reno or Sheridan. I couldn't begin to get the North/South ones right if my life depended on it. Outside of downtown I'm a wiz, though.

I think it would have made more sense though if there was an OKC Blvd/ Classen interchange and they bridged over Reno.

I completely agree

OKC Traffic Enforcement is missing out on a gold mine here.

Just this morning I had two people blow past me on the east end of the boulevard like I was standing still in the 25 zone. Then I saw three cars make a left turn onto Lee from Reno behind me. It's been a couple of days since I tried to take Lee from Reno but it was pretty clearly marked No Left Turn, as are all the side streets the signals have been turned off for, last time I was there. I had to go on down to Walker to make the left to get to Main.

OKC Traffic Enforcement is missing out on a gold mine here.

Just this morning I had two people blow past me on the east end of the boulevard like I was standing still in the 25 zone. Then I saw three cars make a left turn onto Lee from Reno behind me. It's been a couple of days since I tried to take Lee from Reno but it was pretty clearly marked No Left Turn, as are all the side streets the signals have been turned off for, last time I was there. I had to go on down to Walker to make the left to get to Main.

Call OKCPD, apparently we citizens have to be the ones to give a crap, along with streetlights...

Q: People are speeding through my neighborhood. Who do I call?
A: Please call the Oklahoma City Police Department’s Uniform Support Division at 297-1140. They are responsible for enforcing traffic laws.

Call OKCPD, apparently we citizens have to be the ones to give a crap, along with streetlights

i've personally seen cars pulled over on the boulevard just east of the santa fe tracks... so i guess that ocpd does, in fact, "give a crap."

The problem isn’t enforcement, at least not fully. The problem is that they designed the road like NW Expressway and slapped a ridiculous 25 mph speed limit on it.

If you don’t want people going 50 on it, then don’t design it in a way that encourages people to go 50. Simple as that.

^^^^^^^^^^
This, 100%

Yeah.... I find that excuse inexcusable.... Part of being a responsible driver is reading and obeying the posted speed limits... I have no problem with it and I'm no superhuman... Just a simple human like everyone else.

They've also staggered those speed limits fairly well through there now and the 25 doesn't begin until just before Oklahoma... So they blew through 3 other speed zones before they passed me in the 25.

Yeah.... I find that excuse inexcusable.... Part of being a responsible driver is reading and obeying the posted speed limits... I have no problem with it and I'm no superhuman... Just a simple human like everyone else.

They've also staggered those speed limits fairly well through there now and the 25 doesn't begin until just before Oklahoma... So they blew through 3 other speed zones before they passed me in the 25.

Sure on the individual level as a driver. Doesn't mean people won't do it in mass(police going to catch everyone?) The boulevard isn't fully open yet and its a problem. Eventually the city will cave raise the speed limit 5 mph, then cave again and be another 5 mph.

Sure on the individual level as a driver. Doesn't mean people won't do it in mass(police going to catch everyone?) The boulevard isn't fully open yet and its a problem. Eventually the city will cave raise the speed limit 5 mph, then cave again and be another 5 mph.

It's not just the Boulevard where it's a problem.... I've had people pass me doing 60+ on Walker and Western where the posted limit is 40.... Do those streets feel like they're designed to drive 60 on?

Really, as long as it's not a safety issue (street designed for high speed, no pedestrians, etc.) go whatever you feel is safe and I'll mind my own business. It's like left lane hogs doing exactly the speed limit. Just get over, if I want to risk going faster and getting caught let me. Your job is to operate your vehicle in accordance to the law, it's not to enforce the law. If others want to try their luck in operating outside of the law, just let it go.

The cops in Oklahoma focus way too much on speeders so I laugh whenever someone complains the police aren’t doing enough to nab speeders. If people doing 60+ in a 25 zone bother you, you best stay way far away from Bay Area, LA and NYC areas. I wish people drove faster in OKC like they do here. I don’t care what the posted limit is on the Boulevard the proper speed is 60MPH and the police DO enforce it. I’ve gotten a nice ticket from them for it before. They are taking full advantage of it. They even had someone behind me pulled over and when I left they had another person in front of me pulled over. Non sense.

No one will slow down on this Boulevard unless the design of it changes and it’s irresponsible of the city or OkDOT to post inappropriate speed limits because that’s puts pedestrians at risk. Even is DT LA you have people driving 50-60 at times and pedestrians are used to it. Maybe not so much in OKC and a real risk can be presented. The cops don’t need to be pulling people over. The city needs to redesign the Boulevard to be pedestrian friendly then if people want to drive like idiots then go for them.

As long as we prosecute close calls as attempted homicide and pedestrian deaths as murder. Sure.

As long as we prosecute close calls as attempted homicide and pedestrian deaths as murder. Sure.
That sure isn’t a hyperbole at all.

Naw, I'm going to side with Jerry here. This forum has seen the speeding discussion over and over and over and over and over again, and each time it boils down to "if I'm willing to accept the consequences, I should be able to do it". Can't change the terms now, you can't pick and choose the consequences.

That sure isn’t a hyperbole at all.

I had a friend put in a wheelchair for two years because a car going forty over plowed him down while he was riding his bicycle. It's not hyperbole.

I watched an ahole on classen yesterday morning in a white Challenger pushing up against the back tire of a bicycle on the way to work in the morning, because he was impatient trying to get from 50th to downtown. Keep in mind there are multiple schools along this strech with children crossing the street. He got so frustrated he finally swerved over into the next lane, Which was occupied by me at the time. Luckily I managed to avoid getting killed by this ahole since I could maneuver my motorcycle between the cars. So no, not hyperbole. I wonder if the make my day laws would have allowed me to fire back in self defense? I mean, attempted muder with a deadly weapon doesn't have to be a gun.

I also find that people that drive this way tend to have higher rates of uninsured, since they have so many tickets and can't afford insurance thanks to thier overpriced car.

I had a friend put in a wheelchair for two years because a car going forty over plowed him down while he was riding his bicycle. It's not hyperbole.

I watched an ahole on classen yesterday morning in a white Challenger pushing up against the back tire of a bicycle on the way to work in the morning, because he was impatient trying to get from 50th to downtown. Keep in mind there are multiple schools along this strech with children crossing the street. He got so frustrated he finally swerved over into the next lane, Which was occupied by me at the time. Luckily I managed to avoid getting killed by this ahole since I could maneuver my motorcycle between the cars. So no, not hyperbole. I wonder if the make my day laws would have allowed me to fire back in self defense? I mean, attempted muder with a deadly weapon doesn't have to be a gun.
I am sorry to hear about your friend and yes that guy who did that to that biker is a f@cking asshole and lucky he got away from that biker. Some of those cyclists don’t play. I cycle every single day and a lot of times from Hollywood, onto the valley following the orange line pathway to Calabasas then onto pch via lv/Malibu Canyon rd to Santa Monica which is pretty nice ride and I have encountered my fair share of assholes. It makes me mad and I have gotten into fist fights many times including one last week. This isn’t an issue I take lightly.

However be it someone driving stupid at unreasonable speeds making a dumb mistake getting a murder charge which would ruin their life(yes I’m aware they ruined someone else’s) is a bit much. It’s a sh!tty thing and the world ain’t fair, but I think most people would have massive regret and there is manslaughter charges for a reason. Murder would be they intended to kill someone, no? I’m honestly asking because I’m not well educated in law terminology and definitions.

About your incident with the charger, I can’t say I wouldn’t have stood behind you if you couple holes in that guy’s car provided there were no kids or passengers. I don’t think he’ll sit around and wait for the police after doing what you said he did. He’ll think twice before doing something stupid like that. At the very least a mirror slap at the next light would have been my course of action.

People with your lack of respect for traffic laws don’t deserve the privilege of being allowed to operate a motor vehicle Panda.

People with your lack of respect for traffic laws don’t deserve the privilege of being allowed to operate a motor vehicle Panda.
Lol okay

People with your lack of respect for traffic laws don’t deserve the privilege of being allowed to operate a motor vehicle Panda.

This.

PluPlan, you finally crossed a line for me when you indicated that homicide by driving is essentially worthwhile. That's absurd. Too many people aren't held responsible for causing pedestrian/bicycle death when it is clearly their responsibility. You accept that hefty responsibility when you get your driver's license. Too many people don't keep that on their mind while driving.

Here's just one of many stories where similar excuses are made, and these excuses need to stop: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/03/06/da-eric-gonzalez-and-nypd-no-charges-for-driver-who-killed-2-kids-in-crosswalk/

PluPlan, you finally crossed a line for me when you indicated that homicide by driving is essentially worthwhile. That's absurd. Too many people aren't held responsible for causing pedestrian/bicycle death when it is clearly their responsibility. You accept that hefty responsibility when you get your driver's license. Too many people don't keep that on their mind while driving.

Too many people think they are above the traffic laws. I think it's time we make the fines for breaking them stiffer. Require repeat offenders and excessive speeders to retake their driving tests and attend driving schools.

https://visionzeronetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/speeding-vehicle-stats.jpg

It's not just the Boulevard where it's a problem.... I've had people pass me doing 60+ on Walker and Western where the posted limit is 40.... Do those streets feel like they're designed to drive 60 on?

Design obviously doesn't solve all problems, but when a ramp from an interstate leads to a road that looks like it could be easily be used for a drag strip, we're kind of setting ourselves up for failure.

This.

PluPlan, you finally crossed a line for me when you indicated that homicide by driving is essentially worthwhile. That's absurd. Too many people aren't held responsible for causing pedestrian/bicycle death when it is clearly their responsibility. You accept that hefty responsibility when you get your driver's license. Too many people don't keep that on their mind while driving.

Here's just one of many stories where similar excuses are made, and these excuses need to stop: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/03/06/da-eric-gonzalez-and-nypd-no-charges-for-driver-who-killed-2-kids-in-crosswalk/
Whatever. I didn’t say that but I couldn’t give two sh!ts what some posters on an online forum think so I’m not going to defend myself. Think whatever you’d like. :)

Too many people think they are above the traffic laws. I think it's time we make the fines for breaking them stiffer. Require repeat offenders and excessive speeders to retake their driving tests and attend driving schools.That ain’t ever happening but have fun dreaming.

Design obviously doesn't solve all problems, but when a ramp from an interstate leads to a road that looks like it could be easily be used for a drag strip, we're kind of setting ourselves up for failure.

Yep. Not advocating raising the limit or not ticketing speeders, but I’m hoping the moment ODOT hands their irresponsibly-designed boulevard over to the City that the City immediately begins exploring design interventions which will calm traffic before it lands in pedestrian-heavy areas. Actually, I’m hopeful they are ALREADY exploring them.

Speed limit signs are the worst way to control the speed of cars. The road itself tells a driver how fast to go. If people are driving faster than you want them to, it’s because you’ve designed the road wrong.

Whatever. I didn’t say that but I couldn’t give two sh!ts what some posters on an online forum think so I’m not going to defend myself. Think whatever you’d like. :)

I was really hoping you would re-read what you wrote, realize how far over the line it was, and apologize saying you were drunk or something. Instead you're doubling down. Let's go ahead and review what you did say.

"However be it someone driving stupid at unreasonable speeds making a dumb mistake getting a murder charge which would ruin their life(yes I’m aware they ruined someone else’s) is a bit much."

You said, very clearly, that you think someone being held responsible for taking a life, with the associated ripple effects through friends and family, would be a bit much. You think it's just a 'mistake', and paying the penalty for their actions is too much to expect. You think "massive regret" is punishment enough. In your next post, you double down AGAIN and say increased penalties are never going to happen, it's a dream.

I'm REALLY hoping you are still drunk, or at the very least hungover, and are going to eventually post something along the lines of "Holy **** guys, I can't believe I said that, I'm really sorry". But, as you say..."That ain’t ever happening but have fun dreaming. "

For what it is worth, you asked about the legal definition of murder, something easily accessed. It's the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or valid excuse. There are, of course, different "flavors", but intent is part of the definition on some of them, not all (which is why there is a difference between murder and premeditated murder, first degree specifically says with or without premeditation). Murder can in fact be applied to someone who did not actually do the killing. Interestingly, the language of at least one of the definitions refers to killing someone who was just in the way. I'm not really sure how far "I didn't mean to do it, and I have massive regret about it, but I'm going to speed on my way home from this trial" would really take someone attempting to defend killing because they felt traffic laws were just an inconvenience.

Design obviously doesn't solve all problems, but when a ramp from an interstate leads to a road that looks like it could be easily be used for a drag strip, we're kind of setting ourselves up for failure.

:congrats:

Yep. Not advocating raising the limit or not ticketing speeders, but I’m hoping the moment ODOT hands their irresponsibly-designed boulevard over to the City that the City immediately begins exploring design interventions which will calm traffic before it lands in pedestrian-heavy areas. Actually, I’m hopeful they are ALREADY exploring them.

Speed limit signs are the worst way to control the speed of cars. The road itself tells a driver how fast to go. If people are driving faster than you want them to, it’s because you’ve designed the road wrong.:iagree:

Nm

BTW can we get this thread back on topic? It would be nice if BBQ eater could start a thread where he can bitch about people speeding... oh wait, that already exists. Let me grab a link for you: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37254&page=17

I mean at least that thred devolved into the safe heaven of whining and moaning about speeders and drivers making you have to brake in a city even though that stuff is way worse in most other cities, you can pretend it’s an issue in OKC there. Meanwhile, once again, it sure would be nice if we could get this thread back to Boulevard construction updates. I tried my hardest not to respond to the off topic “speeders suck” crap that always comes up but when murder charges were brought in I couldn’t help myself and I will apologize for contributing to an off topic conversation. Please move this conversation over there.

I only made an observation that OKC was missing an opportunity. There was no complaining until you got involved in the conversation... But that's a nice puerile attempt at deflection you made there.

No need for you to respond since we are getting this thread back on track now.

BTW can we get this thread back on topic? It would be nice if BBQ eater could start a thread where he can bitch about people speeding... oh wait, that already exists. Let me grab a link for you: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37254&page=17

I mean at least that thred devolved into the safe heaven of whining and moaning about speeders and drivers making you have to brake in a city even though that stuff is way worse in most other cities, you can pretend it’s an issue in OKC there. Meanwhile, once again, it sure would be nice if we could get this thread back to Boulevard construction updates. I tried my hardest not to respond to the off topic “speeders suck” crap that always comes up but when murder charges were brought in I couldn’t help myself and I will apologize for contributing to an off topic conversation. Please move this conversation over there.
Can we get this thread back on topic? Wait, let me continue my parting shots about the off-topic conversation, justify my own full-throated participation in that off-topic conversation and then take the high road by asking others to move their off-topic conversation elsewhere.

<SMH>

Sorry, PluPan. You can't just drop into a conversation and make a casual statement regarding the death of other human beings at the hands of other human beings being not really a big deal, and expect for people to not have strong reactions. Plenty of people here I'm sure have had friends or family killed or injured in traffic accidents. You can't expect the topic to go away just because say it should go away. Not to mention that "design speed" - a planning and engineering term - is incredibly relevant to conversations regarding the Boulevard, which as designed basically transitions from interstate highway to dense pedestrian environment within the span of a couple of blocks.

I know that part of what you do here is some playful trolling. I actually really enjoy a lot of your posts, you bring some humor to the board - whether intentional or unintentional - and often you have some excellent information. I also appreciate that you have started to embrace the idea that cities should have at least some areas which are walkable. That said, I think it is valuable to have your extreme car-first perspective on the board if nothing else as a foil to the walkabilty discussion and to draw comparisons between the two.

However, since you said you didn't know much about the legalities surrounding vehicular homicide, here you go:

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/homicide/vehicular-homicide/



Vehicular Homicide
Vehicular homicide, also known as vehicular manslaughter, is the reckless or negligent killing of another through the use of a vehicle. Vehicular homicide statutes are a relatively new category of criminal statutes that arose from state concerns about how to deal with the prevalence of vehicle-related deaths. Prior to the passing of these statutes, drivers were typically charged with involuntary manslaughter. Vehicular manslaughter charges are not limited to the death of a passenger, but can include the death of a pedestrian, bystander or other driver as well. Even where multiple drivers may be involved in an accident, vehicular homicide can still be charged if any driver has acted recklessly or negligently.

The exact actions by a driver that give rise of vehicular homicide vary by state. In some states ordinary negligence, which occurs when the driver fails to act with the same level of care that a reasonable person would under the circumstances, is sufficient to support a vehicular homicide charge. In other states, the negligence must be “criminal” or “gross” negligence, which is a higher standard than ordinary negligence. Gross negligence may include driving at excessively high speeds, driving on the wrong side of the road, or failing to obey traffic lights and signs.

In some states, drivers may also be charged with vehicular manslaughter for failing to abide by important safety statutes or other laws that states have determined are of particular importance. For instance, if a death results from a driver’s violation of a “no passing” sign, or a failure to keep his car in proper working order, this can result in a vehicular manslaughter charge. Likewise, many states explicitly include a failure of a driver to abide by rules related to school buses in their vehicular manslaughter statutes.

Drunk Driving
When we think of negligent or careless actions while driving, driving while intoxicated is one of the offenses that may quickly come to mind. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reports that nearly 28 people are killed every day as a result of alcohol-impaired driving and over one-fifth of drivers involved in fatal crashes were reported to have a blood alcohol content of .08 or higher. Driving under the influence (DUI) (also known as a driving while intoxicated [DWI] or operating while intoxicated [OWI]) constitutes a significant portion of vehicular homicide charges and is a problem more and more states are treating increasingly harshly. In some states, including California, convicted DUI offenders who repeatedly drive while intoxicated and cause a fatal collision may be charged with first-degree murder or second-degree murder.

Punishment
Depending on the severity of the actiotn, and the nature of your state’s statute, vehicular manslaughter can be charged as a misdemeanor or felony. Where the actions of the driver are less egregious, such as with ordinary negligence, the driver may only face a misdemeanor resulting in a maximum punishment of one year in jail or a fine. Where gross negligence is involved, or a driver violates an explicit state statute, some states will charge vehicular manslaughter as a felony, resulting in much more significant jail time. Most states treat fatalities resulting from drunk driving as felonies.

Can we get this thread back on topic? Wait, let me continue my parting shots about the off-topic conversation, justify my own full-throated participation in that off-topic conversation and then take the high road by asking others to move their off-topic conversation elsewhere.

<SMH>Okay shake your head at me. Fine. You aren’t wrong. Now laugh at me and move this topic to the proper thread. This isn’t first time I’ve asked this and it was unrelated to this topic.

Speed and pedestrian safety are completely relevant to this topic. In fact they are of the utmost importance.

Sorry, PluPan. You can't just drop into a conversation and make a casual statement regarding the death of other human beings at the hands of other human beings being not really a big deal, and expect for people to not have strong reactions. Plenty of people here I'm sure have had friends or family killed or injured in traffic accidents. You can't expect the topic to go away just because say it should go away. Not to mention that "design speed" - a planning and engineering term - is incredibly relevant to conversations regarding the Boulevard, which as designed basically transitions from interstate highway to dense pedestrian environment within the span of a couple of blocks.

I know that part of what you do here is some playful trolling. I actually really enjoy a lot of your posts, you bring some humor to the board - whether intentional or unintentional - and often you have some excellent information. I also appreciate that you have started to embrace the idea that cities should have at least some areas which are walkable. That said, I think it is valuable to have your extreme car-first perspective on the board if nothing else as a foil to the walkabilty discussion and to draw comparisons between the two.

However, since you said you didn't know much about the legalities surrounding vehicular homicide, here you go:

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/homicide/vehicular-homicide/

Thanks for posting that I’m going to check it out after school. Finals this week so I’m pressed for time. But I need to add I have personally been impacted by speeders(hit several times on my bike) and had a friend die from being hit. It’s a important topic for me too.

Edit: from the quote you posted I don’t see anything about murder. You can’t just take a charge and apply it wherever you want because you think it should be that way. Now I’m referring to you thinking that but to anyone that does.

I know that design speed is important to engineering but even if the discussion were about that, this design has already been chosen. Now all that can happen is wait until it’s built and once the city wants to get serious about being major changes to this poorly designed boulevard, then talk all you want about how people speed and the changes that should come about. But right now all that is going on is people l(the typical posted that do) complaining about speeding and that isn’t relevant. We have a thread for that.

I’m not a moderator and this isn’t my site so this is nothing than my opinion, but my opinion is that this discussion should be taken to the proper thread and I’m sorry for even haven put my two cents in. I knew I shouldn’t have and I did anyways. Lesson learned.

Speed and pedestrian safety are completely relevant to this topic. In fact they are of the utmost importance.
My last post to this. Click on page one and view the first post on this thread. There are actually two threads for this. Friends for a better Boulevard and the “complaining about how people drive” thread. This one is for construction updates. Up to the moderators.

Thanks for posting that I’m going to check it out after school. Finals this week so I’m pressed for time. But I need to add I have personally been impacted by speeders(hit several times on my bike) and had a friend die from being hit. It’s a important topic for me too.

Edit: from the quote you posted I don’t see anything about murder. You can’t just take a charge and apply it wherever you want because you think it should be that way. Now I’m referring to you thinking that but to anyone that does.

I know that design speed is important to engineering but even if the discussion were about that, this design has already been chosen. Now all that can happen is wait until it’s built and once the city wants to get serious about being major changes to this poorly designed boulevard, then talk all you want about how people speed and the changes that should come about. But right now all that is going on is people l(the typical posted that do) complaining about speeding and that isn’t relevant. We have a thread for that.

I’m not a moderator and this isn’t my site so this is nothing than my opinion, but my opinion is that this discussion should be taken to the proper thread and I’m sorry for even haven put my two cents in. I knew I shouldn’t have and I did anyways. Lesson learned.

Homicide is the more appropriate term. If you are stuck on the idea that someone is saying a driver was INTENDING to kill, then no, and I don't think that is being discussed. But if someone is reckless in the operation of any device - a gun, an autombile, a boat, a forklift, a bow and arrow, heck, even pouring alcohol or serving someone tainted food, it rises above simple manslaughter. The idea is that they had it in their power to not put others at risk but instead they chose to irresponsibly use the power they held, and it resulted in the end of someone's life. That should (and does) hold consequences, both criminal and civil.