How true is that for much larger downtowns such as NYC or San Fran?

I friend I used to have who lived in NYC would tell me that certain parts, such as Brooklyn or Staten Island, have a community experience. Other places like Manhattan don't as much.

Depends on which part of Manhattan. The Financial District? It's largely a ghost town at night and on weekends, just like OKC's downtown. Midtown is fairly quiet too. You probably fall into routines where you see the same people at certain lunch counters, bar/grill, library, bookstore, or other places you frequent. You probably see people you interact with professionally, crossing paths on the sidewalk, etc., but there are TONS of people, so it is probably far less pronounced than in OKC.

The Village? SoHo? Other true NEIGHBORHOODS in Manhattan? I'm sure you see people you know all of the time.

I have been thinking the exact same thing and I think it goes back to what I am going to call the "right-wing mentality" for lack of a better term. What I mean by that is the people of OKC seem to think the way to prosperity is to incentives business. When this model is applied to downtown we see incentives for parking garages, jobs, retail, etc... but we got it backwards. The focus should be on incentivizing people, and then let businesses follow them back downtown. This is how urban sprawl works and you can only see how successful that has been. If we got 20,000 people living within 1 mile of MBG the whole downtown retail, grocery store, jobs ,etc debate would just evaporate because businesses would by falling all over each other to provide services to these people.

I just rewatched "Urbanized" last night for the 3rd or 4th time and the obviousness of focusing on people above all else has never seemed clearer or more important to me. It is amazing what some other cities have done around the world (thinking specifically about the Mayor of Bogota, perhaps my favorite person in the movie).

I just rewatched "Urbanized" last night for the 3rd or 4th time and the obviousness of focusing on people above all else has never seemed clearer or more important to me. It is amazing what some other cities have done around the world (thinking specifically about the Mayor of Bogota, perhaps my favorite person in the movie).

That is one of my favorite documentaries and while this is my favorite subject - I had to watch that program no less than 5 time before I finally got "it". It is one of those programs that revels an increasingly deeper understanding the more you watch it.

Here is the full movie for anyone wanting to watch it:

3BJ1HkePhws

That is one of my favorite documentaries and while this is my favorite subject - I had to watch that program no less than 5 time before I finally got "it". It is one of those programs that revels an increasingly deeper understanding the more you watch it.

Here is the full movie for anyone wanting to watch it:

3BJ1HkePhws

If you have Netflix, they have it and in HD.

I know this is a thread about re-urbanizing DT, but I just wanted to touch on the suburbs. It's been talked about in this thread about what is lost in the suburbs and that you don't have any community. But it wasn't always that way and it doesn't have to be that way.

Take a virtual stroll through Heritage Hills on Google Streetview. HH was a suburb at one point. Notice all the well kept sidewalks. Notice that the historical houses had front porches and people sat on those porches and used those porches. People walked on the sidewalks. They would walk to the grocery store or wherever they needed because they could and because of necessity. All this contributed to their sense of community. People came in contact with one another and that creates community.

Now drive down a typical suburb street. Even if they have sidewalks, how much are they used? They may be used for walking for pleasure or exercise or by kids. But the neighborhood is disconnected from anywhere that they might need to (or want to) walk. And if there is a grocery store within walking distance, does it feel safe or pleasant to walk there? Or is it a pedestrian hostile environment where the pedestrian has to compete with four lanes of zooming cars?

Also, what does one notice about the houses? Their most prominent feature isn't a friendly looking porch where your neighbors and friends are sitting and relaxing at the end of the day. The most prominent feature is a big garage. Which makes houses appear closed off and unewlcoming. Stroll down this random street (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=35.686564,-97.441907&spn=0.000488,0.027874&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=35.686769,-97.446104&panoid=Qlv0OYq_yVDijna3hCAoHA&cbp=12,236.73,,0,5.63). On some of the houses, the garage is all you can see. the entrance is recessed back, away from the street.

Suburban design can be done better. And it should be. There's no reason one can't have a feel and sense of community in the suburbs. The suburbs just have to be designed in a way that encourages community. As it is now, the design discourages community. Good design shouldn't be purely the realm of urban areas.

mostly[/I] acted as local people movers that brought people in from around the central core and neighborhoods. Not from neighborhoods say out by Quail Springs.

I highly doubt that OKC is willing to shift transit investment dollars to providing enhanced service in the core beyond what we've seen with the Streetcar project.In the years prior to 1947, I rode the trolley to school each morning for a bit more than three months, from NW 13 and Bdwy Place to the old 17th Street Station at NW 17 and Classen.

Before that, back in 1939 or so, we routinely rode it from the 3400 block NW 19 to downtown for shopping or going to a movie. Remember that in those days, Portland was the western city limit and everything to its west was planted in wheat. I think that was a quite comparable situation to neighborhoods near Quail Springs. We even had light rail to El Reno, Guthrie, and Norman.

My wife's grandmother took the trolley and later the bus to work every morning, to sell millinery at Baron's (yes, at Main and Hudson). She had to walk from the 500 block SE 19 over to SW 25 and Robinson to get on. It then trundled around through Packingtown and up Exchange before getting to Main Street.

My point, simply, is that the discarded network DID cover most of the residential area of the city at that time.

But I agree with you that I doubt today's leaders will be willing to make the needed investment...

It's going to require a lot more than just one thing.

The early neighborhoods like Deep Deuce and Midtown are just the first step. People are going to look at those and scrutinize them. They are going to ask themselves "do I want to live in a place like this?" I know that's exactly what I'm asking myself now. Right now I've moved past the stage in my life where I want to live in an apartment. I'm 36. I want a home. I want to own something. When I look at Deep Deuce I see two places I'd like to live -- the Brownstones and the Hill. I can currently afford neither of them. But I do see the beginnings of a lifestyle that I think I could enjoy.

If enough people from enough walks of life think that they would like the type of lifestyle available today in Deep Deuce, then we'll see more urban neighborhoods develop after that. In 5 years it will be residential development in Automobile Alley. 5 years after that it will be in the Core 2 Shore area. 5 years after that and it will be moving over to the other side of Classen. The better these developing neighborhoods are, the more people will want to experience that. Some will be young 20-somethings who eventually settle down and move to the suburbs. Some will be adults who buy to stay.

Attractions like Fassler Hall are a huge boon to these neighborhoods. They draw a lot of people who don't live there. At least a portion of those people will look around and think "it would be cool to live across the street from this place". And a portion of those people will have the money to actually do it. It's important to keep developing neat attractions like this because it makes these neighborhoods fun and exciting -- it gives the residents something they can't get in the suburbs.

The streetcar is important because it extends your neighborhood. If I live in Deep Deuce then it may take me 20 minutes to walk to McNellie's. If I ride the streetcar I can be there in 5. If I live at the Edge I can take the streetcar to Native Roots and buy my groceries there. It makes the amenities that are available in one part of the city available to the others. This goes towards making all those neighborhoods better, which means more people will want that type of lifestyle.

Skyscrapers are like the Thunder. They're a big, obvious sign of the economic progress that we're making. They're a declarative statement about our growth as a city. They're important, but they also don't necessarily influence our day to day lives that much. The Thunder have had a huge positive impact for this city, even if the Chesapeake Arena isn't super urban friendly. Likewise Devon Tower gives a tremendous positive impression. Towers have an important purpose, but most of the urbanization that affects the lives of our residents has been happening in other areas.

We as a city should draw up a master plan, one that covers everything up to NW Expressway, Penn Square Mall, over to the Zoo, and down to I-240 in the southern part of the city. As time goes by and strip malls and apartment complexes go through their natural life cycle, one by one they will be torn down and replaced. If we have a master plan in place and good design standards, the entire central city can gradually reurbanize. Now that's not going to happen any time soon. There's probably zero political support for something like this. And there won't be, not until our current downtown has filled up and is continuing to grow outwards.

At some point, Deep Deuce will be full. Midtown will be full. Film Row will not have a single surface lot left available. Bricktown will be finished. The Core 2 Shore area will be completely redeveloped. The area around the Farmers Market building will be a thriving community. These neighborhoods will have filled up, and will have merged together into one. Walking through them, you won't be able to tell where one place ends and the other begins. That is the day we are waiting for. When that happens, 25 years from now (or whenever), that's when all the development that has been taking place in our current downtown will spill over into other areas.

The best news we have is that our rate of urban development is increasing. We are getting more announcements, faster and faster. I don't know how much demand there is for this type of lifestyle in OKC. But it's a safe bet that there are a lot of people here who aren't even aware that this is a possibility in this town. The larger and more successful our downtown becomes, the more people will be exposed to it and the more people will want to experience it.

You know, after reading some of the recent comments in the 499 Sheridan thread I got to thinking more about OKC's culture and what could be done to change it. What was mentioned were examples of people who would complain about walking a block after finding a parking spot for a venue or those who would insist on moving their car closer to another district (Bricktown) when they'd already parked (in the CBD) but wanted to patronize a restaurant. This got me thinking, what could be done to change or convince people that walking a few blocks is ok; and there are several things that can and need to be done.

1) create an environment that encourages walking. This means well LIT sidewalks, with trees (in OKC, this is essential), sitting benches, and transit cutouts/stops. It also means having something to 'see' along the way (such as public art or private investment). Pedestrian-ize the traffic signals - make them slow down traffic in most corridors to encourage critical mass (and let them fully cross). These are all 'simple' ideas that could easily be implemented and is something DowntownOKC and the downtown groups should quickly get behind.

2) better wayfinding/signage. So far most of what I've seen has been vehicle oriented, but how about implementing human scale wayfinding and/or signage? Perhaps the city could allow new businesses to post signage directing pedestrians to their business for a period of time, sort of an incubator if you will. Vehicular wayfinding identifying the districts and best attractions, pedestrian wayfinding identifying venues and how "close" everything in downtown OKC really is (instead of X miles, convert to XX feet or blocks). Bricktown Canal 2 blocks E, Myriad Gardens 3 blocks S, OKC Memorial 1 block W: all examples of human scale wayfinding.

3) build density of establishments along the way - this will take longer to implement in most areas of downtown but I was a little disappointed when nobody responded positively when I mentioned opening up retail fronts in the Santa Fe garage along EKG. I personally think it could be a great revenue source for the city/owner and could provide a more positive urban environment if there were something to see along the way. If businesses were good enough, then folks could even patronize them. But to me, Santa Fe is a missed opportunity in its current state of a mall type interiour only access and should have frontage to at least allow window shopping while walking to/from Bricktown; at minimum. ..

4) Organize downtown civic groups to "walk-the-city". This may be a little out-of-the-box but is a great way to encourage people to get out. OKC has enough downtown organizations now, so why not have a day for each one to have its members get out and walk throughout downtown. This wouldn't be a race but instead an organized walk to patronize businesses and/or educate citizens on what downtown has to offer. This may have a side effect of drawing people out of their cars along the way, to participate. which itself has a domino effect. Here, think bar crawl where a hopping district has so many folks moving that people driving want to park and participate. Not (ONLY) a bar crawl but a downtown OKC crawl... Perhaps a bad example but probably the best example I could think of in relation to OKC's demographic.

5) Likely one of the best thoughts in my mind here - OKC needs a civic Television/Radio magazine. Here in Seattle we have 'Evening Magazine (http://www.king5.com/story/entertainment/television/programs/evening-magazine/2014/12/17/watch-now-evening-magazine-december-16-2014/20542001/)' on King 5 Television (http://www.king5.com/), which showcases things to do in the PacNW and has the anchors OUT participating in whatever event/venue they cover. OKC should do the same and have it focus on getting out downtown and the inner city. Not only would this be beneficial for businesses downtown but it likely has an 'educational' side effect and greatest opportunity to change OKC culture when a mass audience observes people they admire getting out and patronizing the city. If emphasis could be made on HOW to patronize downtown - Drive (eventually transit in), park the car once, enjoy your venue, and then walk if you want to go somewhere else since downtown is only 1 square mile or so. The host/ess could even 'show' how its done by doing it themself and dressing appropriately for it.

What I'm thinking here is a show highlighting a night out downtown, where the young hostess is going to dinner and a movie downtown with her date. They drive to the city from Edmond and park at a garage. He has an umbrella ready and both are dressed nicely to go to Broadway 10 or Red, they go inside and enjoy (showcasing their meal and eating ettiquit), then decide to go to the Harkins for a show or Civic Center (walking from AAlley leaving the car parked), then they get ice cream (somewhere) and hang out in the myriad gardens for a romantic end of the evening with no more mention of their car. ...r

There could be other shows, such as "going to a Thunder game? What to do before/after", "taking transit to downtown and using your feet IN downtown", "Exploring Automobile Alley and Film Row in one trip", "Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend - so is downtown's Park Avenue" (showcasing BC Clark and the shoppes in the CBD), "Going DEEP into Deep Deuce", "Hotels, hotels, hotels of Downtown OKC", "Riding the Canal" (urbanized will love this show), "What Is In Downtown?" (this could be a recurring, central theme updated as new businesses open/close), "I'm moving downtown", "My next vacation is, Downtown". You get the idea?

Over time, these shows would be ingrained into OKC area residents and likely could help motivate or at least show people how to live/participate in the most urban environment of the state. Also, the shows would give area businesses the chance to advertise (which could be cheap if say DOKC purchases 30 second blocks and sold 5 second bits to locals) and the Television station likely may see a ratings benefit as being the LOCAL station (notice King 5's motto). ..

Great post, though I do believe we will see a high-quality grocery store downtown or extremely convenient to downtown within the next 5 years or so. Lots of people working hard to make this happen.

Something like this could work in OKC. Price Chopper is a regional chain in upstate NY. This store is in Saratoga Springs with apartments above and a parking structure across the street - and a large movie theater on the corner.

9892

duplicate - sorry

Something like this could work in OKC. Price Chopper is a regional chain in upstate NY. This store is in Saratoga Springs with apartments above and a parking structure across the street - and a large movie theater on the corner.

9892

That somewhat reminds me of the way the Harris Teeter in downtown Charlotte is built. It would be a home run to see a mixed-use residential development like that with a full-service grocery store as part of it around here.