Not strictly fracking-related, but I found this interesting, all kind of common sense, but I never thought of it this way (only a few paragraphs long, not really technical):

Why a car’s engine has more integrity than a shale gas well (http://www.psehealthyenergy.org/site/view/1212)

Wow, this thread skewed...

For those who would like to attend the recently called for public discussion with city officials on this matter. https://www.facebook.com/events/945943868789652/

Jim, I am confused by your assertion that "only three persons have died due to nuclear-power incidents".My thoughts outran my fingers when I typed that, and I failed to see the omission. My intended statement was "in this country, only three persons" and of course Chernobyl had a much higher death toll. It's still too early to have any clear idea how to apportion the butcher's bill between the tsunami and the Fukashima plant.

However it does appear that more than three have died in this country in the 70 years of the nuclear age. The toll is still quite literally orders of magnitude smaller than that of the fossil-fuel industry (coal and petroleum).

I can well understand the panic-stricken reaction of almost everyone. When something like Chernobyl happens, it's horrible. And Murphy assures us that when anything can go wrong, it will -- meaning that since perfection is unachievable, leaving a possibility (no matter how small) of error, such disasters cannot be avoided entirely.

The problem is that existing fossil-fuel technology kills many more people outright, although doing it in such small lots that the losses go almost unseen by those not directly involved. It also, if the current doom-cryers are correct, may very soon make the planet totally uninhabitable by any form of life. So far, that risk has seemed to be small enough to be ignored in any meaningful way that would impact our lifestyles. But we do seem to be between the rock and the hard place, having to choose which unpleasant way to end our existence.

I see no likelihood of the world changing its approaches to any significant degree. The fear of radiation is far too ingrained by now, even though the bare fact is that our very lives depend entirely on our being irradiated by the sun's energy. Instead, we'll install coal scrubbers, switch from burning fuel oil to burning methane, and count on "alternative sources" such as solar cells or wind or hydrogen. Never mind that all of these alternatives require more energy to create than they are ever likely to produce once they are in place...

My thoughts outran my fingers when I typed that, and I failed to see the omission. My intended statement was "in this country, only three persons" and of course Chernobyl had a much higher death toll. It's still too early to have any clear idea how to apportion the butcher's bill between the tsunami and the Fukashima plant.

However it does appear that more than three have died in this country in the 70 years of the nuclear age. The toll is still quite literally orders of magnitude smaller than that of the fossil-fuel industry (coal and petroleum).

I would just like to point out - if the thousands of deaths years after the Chernobyl accident are counted shouldn't that be weighed against the untold number of deaths from non-accidents at coal plants?

I've had people who were directly involved in fracking tell me they caused earthquakes and quite frankly, I don't care. I'll take the small tremors over the loss of economic impact that fracking is adding to the economy.

It's probably better not to trigger seismic activity where the epicenter is immediately under a lake/dam.

It's probably better not to trigger seismic activity where the epicenter is immediately under a lake/dam.I do agree with that. I am opposed to this fracking site.

For those who would like to attend the recently called for public discussion with city officials on this matter. https://www.facebook.com/events/945943868789652/

I have a feeling they might have underestimated the interest level and crowd size when they picked this location but we'll see.

On that page there's a related link to this one...5:30 protest before the meeting.

https://www.facebook.com/events/707906792649973/?unit_ref=related_events

I have a feeling they might have underestimated the interest level and crowd size when they picked this location but we'll see.

On that page there's a related link to this one...5:30 protest before the meeting.

https://www.facebook.com/events/707906792649973/?unit_ref=related_events

I think the city figured that by announcing the public meeting a few days before the meeting itself and holding it a week before Christmas, they would be able to ram this through. They were probably hoping for a winter storm as well.

A whole bunch of win by the owners of this company...whats there to worry about??

Four siblings from a prominent Tulsa family are suing their brother and a cousin, alleging that the two are using the family's oil company as "their personal piggy-bank."
They seek to have a receiver appointed to run or dissolve the company.
The four plaintiffs are siblings of George Singer, 63, of Tulsa, and
cousins of David Singer, 48, of Nichols Hills, a suburb of Oklahoma
City.
The suit by Mark Singer, Stephen Singer, Ellen Singer and Sandra Singer Anderson was filed Monday in Tulsa County District Court. The suit also names Singer Bros. LLC, the Tulsa-based oil and gas company started in 1962 by brothers Alex and Joe Singer, both now deceased.
"The Manager-Defendants continue to treat Singer Bros. LLC as if it were their personal piggy-bank, exercising to the fullest their powers of management and rejecting to the fullest their fiduciary duties as
managers," states the suit.
In 2009, an arbitration panel awarded the four siblings and a cousin, Amy Singer, a $4.4 million judgment against George and David on behalf of the company, records show. The award was restitution for unauthorized expenses including luxury automobiles, a share of a corporate jet, tickets to sporting events and lavish nonbusiness travel.
The newly filed suit alleges the two managers have continued to waste the company assets for their own benefit.

^ I tracked that back to this story. http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/singer-siblings-again-in-battle-over-operation-of-singer-bros/article_a544153b-37f9-527f-a25f-451191d5d486.html

I guess that would be this George Singer, listed as Chairman of the Board and co-CEO for Pedestal Oil Company...

Business Profiles and Company Information | ZoomInfo.com (http://www.zoominfo.com/s/#!search/profile/person?personId=3113777&targetid=profile)

David Singer doesn't seem to have as high of an internet profile but Manta lists him as president of Pedestal.

From here (http://www.okc.gov/utilities/hefnermtg/):


Public input requested on possible oil exploration at Lake Hefner
The Oklahoma City Water Utilities Trust has received an amended unsolicited proposal from Pedestal Oil regarding oil and gas operation on Lake Hefner property. Many citizens have contacted us about this proposal.

Citizen input is very important and the first step in any approval process. The trust appreciates and welcomes comments and questions.

The Utilities Department scheduled a neighborhood meeting at 6 pm, Thursday, December 18, to re-introduce the proposal first discussed in 2011 with representatives from neighborhoods near the lake property and the Friends of Lake Hefner.

The neighborhood meeting is the very first step in an approval process that includes consideration by the Oklahoma City Water Utilities Trust, the Oklahoma Corporation Commission, the Planning Commission and the City Council.

The documents below may provide information and help address questions or concerns. Drilling and pumping operations near water supply lakes in Oklahoma City are required to follow stringent rules for development and operation. Land leases generate income for recreation improvements at Oklahoma City’s lakes Hefner, Draper and Overholser.

OCWUT - Rules Controlling Drilling Operations (PDF)

Pedestal Oil Proposal (PDF)

Comments or questions may be sent via email at ocwut-support@okc.gov or by mail at:

Oklahoma City Water Utilities Trust
General Manager
420 West Main, suite 500
Oklahoma City, OK 73102

All written comments received by Monday, December 22, will be gathered and summarized in a report to the Oklahoma City Water Utilities Trust early 2015.

^ I tracked that back to this story. Singer siblings again in battle over operation of Singer Bros. LLC - Tulsa World: Local (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/singer-siblings-again-in-battle-over-operation-of-singer-bros/article_a544153b-37f9-527f-a25f-451191d5d486.html)

I guess that would be this George Singer, listed as Chairman of the Board and co-CEO for Pedestal Oil Company...

Business Profiles and Company Information | ZoomInfo.com (http://www.zoominfo.com/s/#!search/profile/person?personId=3113777&targetid=profile)

David Singer doesn't seem to have as high of an internet profile but Manta lists him as president of Pedestal.Another TEEMCO in the offing???

"First, there will be a protest at 5:30 p.m. at the Will Rogers Conservatory building on N.W. 36th Street. Right after that protest, there will be a public meeting at 6 p.m. where citizens can voice their opinions and ask questions."

- Oklahomans To Protest Against Drilling At Lake Hefner - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/27659386/oklahomans-to-protest-against-drilling-at-lake-hefner)

Total fail by our city leaders. (Planned?) There are more people standing outside in the rain than inside the tiny venue. Parking is impossible, of course, because of where it is.

Enough people concerned that they're overflowing out into the rain sends a bit of a message all of its own. The city council meeting where this is presented should be exciting.

Impressive that that many people care enough to show up in general.

I really like how the people in and around OKC are getting more and more involved in the community.

That is always a good thing.

Live tweets from tonight's meeting:

https://twitter.com/awilmoth

I got to the parking lot turn-in off 36th about 5:40. The parking lot was full, people who had driven in and found it so were trying to get back out. Cop cars were parked to block parking across the street and around the corner down the highway access road where that lot was full too. It was obvious by the traffic control being in place they knew in advance they had a crowd on the way. I circled the park, parked at 36th and Portland and walked through the wet grass east on 36th to the site. (Because OKC doesn't believe in sidewalks.)

I thought the venue was inside the building in the meeting room that might hold 200-300 people in a pinch and had bet upthread it would be too small. That wasn't the place. The meeting was in greenhouse south of the building. Occupancy sign on the wall said 124. It was full when I got there and there were probably 200-300 more people outside. I'm sure with the parking challenges, there were plenty more who aborted and gave up for lack of access like one of my friends did. Part of the larger fail in picking this venue besides the size and lack of overflow parking, there were other events going on in the main building. I was told by someone in the crowd there was a beekeepers meeting in the main meeting room.

About 6:15 someone came out and said they would have a second meeting at 7:00PM and told people they could submit comments online.

Some people in the crowd chanted "No Fracking" and "No Drilling" off and on while the meeting went on inside. About 6:45 many sang This Land is Our Land. and Oklahoma. Ed came out at 7:00 PM, stood on a bench and addressed the people, saying among other things, they had attempted to record the entire proceeding and would make it available online. He apologized for the lack of foresight, and especially to those who had come out and would not be able to attend the second meeting for lack of space. He continued to do so as he walked through the crowd.

At 7:10 they let in the second crowd. I was third from last to get in. Marsha Slaughter led off and introduced an engineer from Pedestal Oil who covered the main list of site protections, noise control, security and street issues and then took questions. I'm pretty sure the Singer brothers were on the bench at the side but were never introduced and never spoke. Jim Couch ended the meeting at 8:30. I'm going to assume Ed is going to make good on posting the video in the fullness of time so I'll let the content speak for itself.

Proud of my city tonight. The leadership not so much.

I'm sorry but these people are fracking idiots...and I'm talking about the doubters... Makes Oklahomans look like cavemen.

I hope the well is drilled and drilled successfully just to shut everyone up!

Best unanswered question in the second meeting...if the city wants to produce the oil under the lake wouldn't it make more sense to put out an RFP and entertain proposals from the bigger players in the industry with more experience and possible accountability, like Devon or CHK, rather than a small independent.

Oklahoma City residents express concerns about oil drilling plan for Lake Hefner | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-residents-express-concerns-about-oil-drilling-plan-for-lake-hefner/article/5377437)

So let's say that one out of a million drilling/drilling-related "accidents" results in significant environmental damage.
What if that one accident results in the citizens of OKC not having water to drink, shower in, wash their dishes, or maintain their Pet Lawns?

Simplistic? Probably. but what if?
I wouldn't want to take that risk.
Unless I didn't actually live here.

I would hope that The Powers That Be in Local Government would feel the same . . .
(I wonder if would be possible to arrange a focus group of the former denizens of Chernobyl or Pitcher to provide testimony regarding risk management . . .)

Best unanswered question in the second meeting...if the city wants to produce the oil under the lake wouldn't it make more sense to put out an RFP and entertain proposals from the bigger players in the industry with more experience and possible accountability, like Devon or CHK, rather than a small independent.

"The City (fathers and mothers)" can't drink oil or oil revenue.
or maybe they can . . .

This turned into pretty much a disaster of a PR move by the City.

First of all, why are we even considering this? It's a small amount of revenue (roughly $1 million a year) so some oil company nobody has heard of can drill an oil well right in the middle of our biggest recreation area and adjacent to our public water supply?

Secondly, this does not seem to be a company the City should be in business with. If this is such a grand idea, why not get Devon or Chesapeake or SandRidge or another well-established local company that is already deeply invested in the community's well-being to be our partner?

Third, the meeting was a complete cluster. There was a Facebook invite with hundreds of respondees and the City knew the crowd would be huge and still kept it at a venue that held only slightly more than a hundred without suitable parking. There is a great metaphor in the image of hundreds of concerned citizens huddled in the cold rain outside a closed room.


I believe many in City Hall underestimate how much citizens and people that love OKC want to participate in important decisions. This is a pretty radical departure from the past and a fantastic sign IMO but it seems it is not fully appreciated by many decision makers who have held their positions for so long they have a hard time comprehending how much things have changed.

Full disclosure: I work in O&G.

With that in mind, I was willing to give Pedestal the benefit of the doubt but now I'm SMH.

If there's as much oil under the lake as they say there is, why not drill a directional/horizontal well with a pad located somewhere else? There are plenty of places to the north of the dam, outside the Hefner Watershed. I can't imagine putting a drilling pad in what is likely considered a wetland and having to comply with the massive amount of regulations that will entail.

And frankly for a company that has drilled wells in urban OKC, they shouldn't have been shocked that so many people would have objected to this. PR fail.

Full disclosure: I work in O&G.

With that in mind, I was willing to give Pedestal the benefit of the doubt but now I'm SMH.

If there's as much oil under the lake as they say there is, why not drill a directional/horizontal well with a pad located somewhere else? There are plenty of places to the north of the dam, outside the Hefner Watershed. I can't imagine putting a drilling pad in what is likely considered a wetland and having to comply with the massive amount of regulations that will entail.

And frankly for a company that has drilled wells in urban OKC, they shouldn't have been shocked that so many people would have objected to this. PR fail.

If I remember right, there is an existing well over by the soccer fields to the Northeast of the dam, downstream from the lake. They could make a pad at that location. If they would drill a multi unit well they could drill for almost 2 miles horizontally. No need for the location to be in the upstream watershed.

If I remember right, there is an existing well over by the soccer fields to the Northeast of the dam, downstream from the lake. They could make a pad at that location. If they would drill a multi unit well they could drill for almost 2 miles horizontally. No need for the location to be in the upstream watershed.

The average lateral on a horizontal well is about 4,000 feet. Halliburton did drill a horizontal well at a record setting 9,124 feet but that was not in the formation Hefner sits on.

The average lateral on a horizontal well is about 4,000 feet. Halliburton did drill a horizontal well at a record setting 9,124 feet but that was not in the formation Hefner sits on.

I've got an interest in some multi unit wells up in Payne County that Devon is drilling and they are drilling them around 1.2 miles horizontally. They have had trouble with the fault lines so now they are drilling from 2 different pads sites in adjoining sections right up to the fault. Pretty incredible they can do what they are doing up there. They are drilling 3 formations with each well, Woodford, Mississippi and Misner/Hunton. Will be interesting to see the production.

I keep thinking this is some kind of joke, to do this in the spot proposed. Are these guys Tulsans attempting to troll the good citizens of OKC?

Yeah, honestly this wouldn't even be drawing a peep if it weren't smack in the middle of the watershed for the primary drinking water reservoir for much of OKC, and within (literally) a stone's throw. I believe that the chance of a catastrophic failure/leak/accident/contamination is probably incredibly minuscule, but why chance it at all, regardless the payout. Being reasonably careful is NOT the same thing as being anti-exploration or anti-O&G.

Sheesh, just find another pad downstream and drill horizontally. People in OKC are way to drilling-aware to think you can ONLY drill in one direction...straight down.

I believe that the chance of a catastrophic failure/leak/accident/contamination is probably incredibly minuscule, but why chance it at all, regardless the payout.This times a milli

Last day to submit comments for the official report to the trust at ocwut-support@okc.gov


All written comments received by Monday, December 22, will be gathered and summarized in a report to the Oklahoma City Water Utilities Trust early 2015.


City of Oklahoma City (http://www.okc.gov/utilities/hefnermtg/)

You might as well copy your council person while you are at it. Just in case the OCWUT is deaf. Ward map and email addresses here:

http://www.okc.gov/council/wardmap/

Oil company hopes drilling would cut down crime | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oil-company-hopes-drilling-would-cut-down-crime/30357366?Content%20Type=Story&Content%20Type=Story&linkId=11300352&utm_campaign=KOCO%205%20News%20-%20koco5&utm_medium=FBPAGE&utm_source=Social)

Oil company hopes drilling would cut down crime | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oil-company-hopes-drilling-would-cut-down-crime/30357366?Content%20Type=Story&Content%20Type=Story&linkId=11300352&utm_campaign=KOCO%205%20News%20-%20koco5&utm_medium=FBPAGE&utm_source=Social)

Now they think they are Batman. Sorry, as the commenter on the post said, I would rather there be lewd acts going on than the chance of an oil spill into the water. And I know spills and accidents happen, I saw it living in Florida with BP.

Oil company hopes drilling would cut down crime | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oil-company-hopes-drilling-would-cut-down-crime/30357366?Content%20Type=Story&Content%20Type=Story&linkId=11300352&utm_campaign=KOCO%205%20News%20-%20koco5&utm_medium=FBPAGE&utm_source=Social)

They're really pushing it.

With regard to the company, they're headquartered in Downtown OKC.

https://www.google.com/#q=pedestal+oil+company

Oil company hopes drilling would cut down crime | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oil-company-hopes-drilling-would-cut-down-crime/30357366?Content%20Type=Story&Content%20Type=Story&linkId=11300352&utm_campaign=KOCO%205%20News%20-%20koco5&utm_medium=FBPAGE&utm_source=Social)

What did I tell Ya?

Next thing you know they'll be trying to protect us from the feral cats.

Oil company hopes drilling would cut down crime | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com (http://www.koco.com/news/oil-company-hopes-drilling-would-cut-down-crime/30357366?Content%20Type=Story&Content%20Type=Story&linkId=11300352&utm_campaign=KOCO%205%20News%20-%20koco5&utm_medium=FBPAGE&utm_source=Social) You have GOT to be kidding!!!!!

You have GOT to be kidding!!!!!

We have to trust them. They said they're drilling this oil for the sake of lowering crime and dammit if that's what the boys, we gotta believe em'. (does the period go before or after that punctuation?)

We have to trust them. They said they're drilling this oil for the sake of lowering crime and dammit if that's what the boys, we gotta believe em'. (does the period go before or after that punctuation?)
So why aren't they planning to drill by Trosper Park too? LOL

With the price of oil what it is, why would anyone consider this right now, regardless of the environmental risk? If it continues, how many of the small companies will be minor footnotes in history.

With the price of oil what it is, why would anyone consider this right now, regardless of the environmental risk? If it continues, how many of the small companies will be minor footnotes in history.

It probably has something to do with being able to access vast sums of money, that when properly juggled, will offset losses from the current slump in oil prices as they are affecting a small--yet questionable--player in the Energy Game. But I for sure don't know all of the intricacies and subtleties involved in all that there stuff. This whole thing reeks of idiocy and corruption worse than a fish kill out at Horseshoe Lake a few decades ago.

We have to trust them. They said they're drilling this oil for the sake of lowering crime and dammit if that's what the boys, we gotta believe em'. (does the period go before or after that punctuation?)

The main thing to remember is that punctuation rules are only guidelines.
(or maybe fault lines that will drain or pollute our water supply)

Isn't it somewhat ironic, or something/whatever . . . perhaps iconic?, that the proposed drilling is in the vicinity of a Lake named for a major oilman and representative of The People of Oklahoma? Nah. It ain't ironic. It just is what it is.

The main thing to remember is that punctuation rules are only guidelines.
(or maybe fault lines that will drain or pollute our water supply)

Isn't it somewhat ironic, or something/whatever . . . perhaps iconic?, that the proposed drilling is in the vicinity of a Lake named for a major oilman and representative of The People of Oklahoma? Nah. It ain't ironic. It just is what it is.When you have ironicies, I would think that itself would be iconic. They can certainly be iconic in being ironic. It just fits the bill. . . the bill of irony that is. ;)

I had to steel myself to properly parse that message. Left a bit of a metallic taste, too...

Pedestal has withdrawn according to the City of OKC's Twitter account.

And website...

In recognition of widespread community opposition, Pedestal Oil Company, Inc. has withdrawn its proposal to drill for oil on the south side of Lake Hefner.

“I want to thank Pedestal Oil for recognizing the importance of Lake Hefner to our community and withdrawing their recent proposal,” Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said. “I also want to thank the many people who contacted my office and shared their views on the topic. We always feel Oklahoma City is most successful when our residents are informed, engaged and able to participate in an ongoing public process.”

City of Oklahoma City | News from OKCGOV (http://www.okc.gov/news/2014_12/Lake_Hefner_Oil_Proposal_Withdrawn.html)

Power to the people!


Such a ridiculous idea to begin with. Makes me question the judgment of some of our higher-level City staff.

I had to steel myself to properly parse that message. Left a bit of a metallic taste, too...

I reckon, that in the "final" analysis, the power o' the press (a.k.a, The Fourth Estate?)--even on this side of a new millennium and even with cyber (not real) space--in The Mix, complete pinheaded idiocy, without even the slightest nod in the direction of common sense, can overcome all that there. I might show up to protest the razing of the Art Deco Bus Station for the sake of a Mystery Tower Realized . . . but probably I won't. =)

Didn't Pittsburg used to be the "steeling" capital/capitol center of the known universe? =)

What strikes me as most interesting (and generally goofy at the same time) is that a series of Tweets determined the outcome here.

And website...

In recognition of widespread community opposition, Pedestal Oil Company, Inc. has withdrawn its proposal to drill for oil on the south side of Lake Hefner.

“I want to thank Pedestal Oil for recognizing the importance of Lake Hefner to our community and withdrawing their recent proposal,” Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said. “I also want to thank the many people who contacted my office and shared their views on the topic. We always feel Oklahoma City is most successful when our residents are informed, engaged and able to participate in an ongoing public process.”

City of Oklahoma City | News from OKCGOV (http://www.okc.gov/news/2014_12/Lake_Hefner_Oil_Proposal_Withdrawn.html)

If nothing else, our City Leaders are nearly complete experts at covering their ass.
And Bricktown, not to mention the rest of the developments currently under consideration are dearly loved.
(by me)
sorry, I meant shellfish.
(not including the debate made famous by The Oyster and the Carpenter back when Lewis Carrol was still chasing rabbits . . . =)

Glad They chose not to potentially FU the water supply.

Geez that sounded selfish.
sorry.

"Feliz Navidad y Prospero Nuevo Ano." with the squiggle/tilde over the n in ano.

"Feliz Navidad y Prospero Nuevo Ano." with the squiggle/tilde over the n in ano.

RM,
You mean the "ñ"? In other words, Feliz Navidad y Prospero Nuevo Año. On a Mac, you just hold down the control key and type n, then release the control key and type another n.
C. T.
p.s. Just google "how do I place a tilde over a character on a PC". Or as I did "how do I place a tilde over a character on a mac".

Know what this is, CT?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~
~~~ ~~~ ~~~
~~~ ~~~ ~~~
Waltzing my tildes.

It reminds me of how Our City Leaders can dance so well around some issues.
(that was a feeble attempt to restore Threadal Relevance.)

btw: I used to have a list of Alt.Key Codes, but I lost it.
Thé only oné I commitéd to mémory is Alt. 130.)