As has been discussed in the 21c Museum Hotel thread, the Hall family will retain ownership of the old Fred Jones plant that the hotel will occupy and be a partner in that $51.5 million project. Hall Capital also owns quite a bit of land around 21c and has ambitious plans for development.

Hall owns property on 5 blocks around the hotel and the current plans call for 4-story apartments on all of them with structured parking and commercial/retail on the ground floor along all the street frontage. The one exception will be Block 3 which will be a small number of for-sale units at 2 or 3 stories with private garages.

All existing structures will be demolished except for the plant itself and two small red brick buildings at the northwest intersection of Sheridan and Fred Jones. These structures were built in 1930 and will become a live music hall and restaurant and the one-story building to the west will feature a rooftop patio. We first reported this in a post on March 17th (http://www.okctalk.com/showwiki.php?title=21c%20Museum%20Hotel&page=9#post760824).

Hall is partnering with a master developer who is turn seeking other local developers to help develop the various blocks, all within a certain design and conceptual framework. I know Andy Burnett is involved and possibly Mark Beffort, David Wanzer and Ben Sellers, as well as others.

Current plans call for approximately 200 living units, considerable commercial space and structured parking for residents, hotel guests and patrons of the various establishments. Effectively, all five blocks would be covered with dense development pushed to all the property lines.

The parties involved are still in various active negotiations, including with the City to arrange for public incentives. However, it is my understanding things are looking very solid and an official announcement should be coming soon.




http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hallcap2.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/westdowntown.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hallmusic.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21cnow.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c1st.jpg

Sounds pretty damn amazing. If this comes to fruition as described, this will be a MASSIVE boost to the west side of downtown development. I think this could be exactly what downtown needs to begin bridging Film Row, CBD, and Bricktown/Deep Deuce.

Yep!

The big unknown is all the surface lots between this project and the CBD.

I know the Police are working to build one smallish parking structure (as labeled in the graphic above) but that still leaves most of Main with tons of nothingness. I hope some substantial plans are in the works but I haven't heard of anything definite.

Also, the properties labeled 'Irwin' above are critical to linking Film Row to this development. I know Chip Fudge really wants to buy them but thus far the owner has been unwilling.

It now makes sense why the 21c hotel would be built where it is being built. A lot of people were concerned about its location off the beaten path, but if all this gets developed as described here, that area could easily become a major focal point for downtown OKC.

Kind of surprised the estimate for living is around 200 units. With this many blocks I would think it should be more. They must be leaning to more office and retail space.

Will only be 3 levels of living (ground floor is either parking or commercial) and they also have to accommodate parking not only for the residents but for the hotel, Music Hall and all the commercial space. All that parking will be wrapped in living or commercial.

By way of comparison, LIFT is 327 units and is taking a full, square block. It's 5 levels, all living units with just a small amount of commercial, and they only have to park their residents.

I hope the design of the new buildings is similar to that of the old factory. It's a cool look and it would really give that end of downtown a distinctive appearance.

This has fantastic potential.

I am impressed by the overall development concept, I just hope that the south parcels on Sheridan are developed after the north parcels on Main.

Film Row may soon develop an architectural form identity with restored brick warehouse buildings in 2 years, which may not be as noticeable today. That surface lot at Main and Lee needs to be developed before those buildings go.

I'm cool with a slower process of development. I love to see infill but it needs to be "best use" type infill. We do need more residential in Film Row and everywhere else in the inner city, from Bricktown, to Midtown, to Film Row, to Automobile Alley, all the way up to Paseo and Uptown 23rd.

This seems pretty huge. What is the likelihood they pull this off?

The thing about residential is that if it's incorporated with most concepts outside of the CBD, it takes care of itself. You don't need 327 unit complexes. You need a building to have 2 or 3 levels of residential generally existing above the street level with the street level being occupied by some sort of commercial space, whether it's rent or condo/flat.

Still really waiting for a developer to get away from the big complex and focus more on multiple buildings per block and this seems like an excellent time to do that. And if not legitimate individual buildings, at least some buildings that are tastefully done so as to appear to be different buildings.

I've always wanted to see residential in Film Row and recently stated that in another thread. This is a step in the right direction. This will bring pedestrian traffic to this area as never seen before. I'm excited and hope we see it come to reality.

This seems pretty huge. What is the likelihood they pull this off?

I was told that it's going to happen and they want to start relatively soon.

But of course, still need to work through the incentives, design approval and building permits.

Pete, any idea what we are talking total numbers wise when it comes to this and 21c? Would $200 million be close?

No, I think $200 million is way too high.

LIFT at 329 units, garage and some retail is $42.5 million. Level was only $24 million.

I've heard this project will be more than 21c ($51.5 million) but I wouldn't expect it to be much more than that. Best guess: $50 to $70 million.

I've always thought this area of the core had great potential, but there are two elephants in the living room: the County Jail and the homeless shelter. Not to sound insensitive, but I've lived in a lot of big cities and have seen how these impede development. It is hard to sell condos to yuppies if they're located in areas such as this. Will these structures be relocated?

Depends on how the homeless shelter is run, but it is estimated that there are over 1000 homeless is downtown San Diego with several shelters offering day and extend residency to them, and they seem to co-exist with lots of residential projects side by side.

Any status updates on this?

Any status updates on this?

They've been gutting out the interior for the last few weeks. I can't imagine too much in there to gut, as it's a fairly open warehouse.

They've been gutting out the interior for the last few weeks. I can't imagine too much in there to gut, as it's a fairly open warehouse.This is separate from the 21 Hotel.

This is separate from the 21 Hotel.well, technically it is the same developer therefore the same project, although I can see where you're coming from.

I think the question we need to be asking ourselves here is: what is time. If you were alive in the early 50's, you'd be supraised to learn your are, in fact, a four dimensional character. Assuming I moved from point a to point b, you might say I used to be in another place which would imply past tense and therefore there would be a separation of present and past, but you can't prove that. Not even video evidence could really prove anything because we're in the present in our place. Do the math man. Albert Einstein was wrong about one thing; there could be an alternate universe for every second and thereafter at all times for infinity and beyond(that's right I went Buzzlightyear on you deal with it) always creating new universes for every second that passes for every possible outcome there could ever be. That includes me the in a town called Cougar Town, oh wait, they already have that, but this is their last season!!!! :( no matter, alternate universes take care of that and so does the Friends bar which I've been going to multiple times a week because it's such a nice bar.

Well, I better get off of here before Ljbab gets mad at me for being awake this time of night... :p

This is separate from the 21 Hotel.

Correct.

They originally had ambitious plans for the area surrounding the hotel but I am wondering if those plans are still a go in light of lower oil prices.

It's pretty unlikely that oil prices would have any effect on this project. First of all, the Halls' portfolio is not very energy-heavy, and secondly the development of the outlying buildings is probably somewhat critical to the success of 21c.

Let me say this about oil price and OKC development. Sprawls is built on debt and surplus money. When times get financially lean urban density is the cure. The reason OKC fares so poorly when oil prices go down is because the local economy is built on $100 oil. If the so-called corporate visionaries in OKC would exercise a little thrift and good development patterns in the good times the bad times wouldn't get so bad.

Geez man, of all people I appreciate your tanacity and commitment to urbanism principles. But every single post here doesn't have to be a sermon.

I seriously doubt the OKC economy is built on $100 oil. It hasn't been $100 forever. A conventional well is very profitable when oil is 42 per barrel. This morning oil was at 48, and it's been climbing lately. For horizontal wells to be profitable, it needs to be in the 60 to 70 range, and this all depends on the well, etc.

Geez man, of all people I appreciate your tanacity and commitment to urbanism principles. But every single post here doesn't have to be a sermon.

+1

Geez man, of all people I appreciate your tanacity and commitment to urbanism principles. But every single post here doesn't have to be a sermon.

No, just explaining why this project will not get canceled because of a downtown in oil prices, and why in the long-term it will hope OKC thrive despite the ups and downs of the local oil companies.

Let me say this about oil price and OKC development. Sprawls is built on debt and surplus money. When times get financially lean urban density is the cure. The reason OKC fares so poorly when oil prices go down is because the local economy is built on $100 oil. If the so-called corporate visionaries in OKC would exercise a little thrift and good development patterns in the good times the bad times wouldn't get so bad.

You have become the Russel Westbrook of new urbanism. No matter what the issue, your answer is the same. Or maybe you are this generation's Chauncey Gardner.

No, just explaining why this project will not get canceled because of a downtown in oil prices, and why in the long-term it will hope OKC thrive despite the ups and downs of the local oil companies.

I can say with certainty you have no idea why and if this project may or may not get built or cancelled.

Let me say this about oil price and OKC development. Sprawls is built on debt and surplus money. When times get financially lean urban density is the cure. The reason OKC fares so poorly when oil prices go down is because the local economy is built on $100 oil. If the so-called corporate visionaries in OKC would exercise a little thrift and good development patterns in the good times the bad times wouldn't get so bad.

I'm a little confused. In your hermetically sealed vacuum of ideology, you aren't considering that OKC's growth is a function of that same oil economy. We need oil to go back up, which it will. When we have growth is the time to take advantage for urban development. We really do need the growth machine.

You also neglect to consider the extent to which the economies of both downtown and the suburbs are interconnected. The suburban stretches of OKC proper knew they needed a strong downtown when they voted for MAPS I in 1993. This goes both ways.

I almost always agree with you (Kerry) on OKC's need to do better. This Hall Capital project is OKC doing better, so let's be cool here.

I'll just say this and then drop this portion of the subject. Look at Detroit. With all their problems and an industry that actually did self-destruct, they realize their only hope for survival is density. In 25 years they will be the model city every one looks to.

http://detroit.curbed.com/archives/2013/09/downtown-detroit-repopulates-offers-tiny-spot-of-hope.php

http://www.wired.com/2013/09/detroit-growth-rings/#slideid-259871

I'll give someone else the last word if they choose.

I was in Detroit two weeks ago for the opening of the Detroit Auto Show. The city is very bombed out, except for anything along Woodward Avenue which is doing very well. Especially in the suburbs, where several urban suburbs (Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Pontiac, Northville, Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor, Grosse Pointe, etc) are keeping Metro Detroit stable. Michigan is still one of the top states in the nation for R&D.

Overall Metro Detroit and Michigan are doing very well. Detroit is just an epic disaster of sprawl as well - but for a metro of 5 million people, it still has a lot of vibrant and dense areas.

well, technically it is the same developer therefore the same project, although I can see where you're coming from.

I think the question we need to be asking ourselves here is: what is time. If you were alive in the early 50's, you'd be supraised to learn your are, in fact, a four dimensional character. Assuming I moved from point a to point b, you might say I used to be in another place which would imply past tense and therefore there would be a separation of present and past, but you can't prove that. Not even video evidence could really prove anything because we're in the present in our place. Do the math man. Albert Einstein was wrong about one thing; there could be an alternate universe for every second and thereafter at all times for infinity and beyond(that's right I went Buzzlightyear on you deal with it) always creating new universes for every second that passes for every possible outcome there could ever be. That includes me the in a town called Cougar Town, oh wait, they already have that, but this is their last season!!!! :( no matter, alternate universes take care of that and so does the Friends bar which I've been going to multiple times a week because it's such a nice bar.

Well, I better get off of here before Ljbab gets mad at me for being awake this time of night... :p

It's a good thing you posted this after I went to bed last night, plupan. :mad:

I just found out about this today and I love how this area could be redeveloped. To the average person from out of town, this area of downtown has blight and decay written all over it. I like the idea of preserving a couple buildings in addition to 21c, but the bulldozers can knock down the rest. I just hope it's developed right. Something different than sprawling apartment complexes

Hall Capital investment fund buys two warehouses near Will Rogers World Airport in Oklahoma City | News OK (http://newsok.com/hall-capital-investment-fund-buys-two-warehouses-near-will-rogers-world-airport-in-oklahoma-city/article/5397193)

I've heard from good sources this project is still very much on track.

FlashBack RetroPub will be first to blaze a trail in this general area but it won't be long before 21c, the music hall and the surrounding properties join them.

This area is going to start to change very quickly.

I've heard from good sources this project is still very much on track.

FlashBack RetroPub will be first to blaze a trail in this general area but it won't be long before 21c, the music hall and the surrounding properties join them.

This area is going to start to change very quickly.

Great news. I was worried that the Convention Center debacle would bring this into question but its awesome to see that its still on track. That side of the core has so much untapped potential.

I've heard from good sources this project is still very much on track.

FlashBack RetroPub will be first to blaze a trail in this general area but it won't be long before 21c, the music hall and the surrounding properties join them.

This area is going to start to change very quickly.

It had the potential to be an amazing big-picture transformation, but apparently not enough people saw it that way back when it mattered (while the boulevard was under design).

It had the potential to be an amazing big-picture transformation, but apparently not enough people saw it that way back when it mattered (while the boulevard was under design).

Why wouldn't it have any potential now? I'm confused. Didn't known the success of this project hinged on which form of the boulevard was selected.

Why wouldn't it have any potential now? I'm confused. Didn't known the success of this project hinged on which form of the boulevard was selected.

The grid option would have afforded more chance for development south of this area, but the district that's really affected by the chosen blvd option is the Farmer's Market District. They'll lose potential.

Why wouldn't it have any potential now? I'm confused. Didn't known the success of this project hinged on which form of the boulevard was selected.

The success of THIS project doesn't. The success of anything on the other side of the boulevard, however, obviously does. I would argue that the Film Row area would have been more successful as well with a better boulevard, and being more connected to the Farmer's Market area. The post I was responding to suggested a "big-picture" overview of west downtown, which in order to see, you have to pan out a little from any single development.

Could be completely unrelated, but as to who could be behind/involved with the Music Hall, I happened to see Scott Booker (ACM@UCO pres/flaming lips manager) and his right hand man Derek Brown walking into the offices of Hall Capital just about a week ago.

Don't look now, but OKC is on the verge of going from about a 2 to at least an 8 on the live music scale:


Chesapeake Arena no longer under construction and thus fully available apart from the Thunder
Bricktown Events Center completely remodeled and much better venue
Criterion Concert Hall under construction and attached to Live Nation
Tower Theater will almost certainly be a live music venue with a strong booking component (newish info)
ACM@UCO continues to have live shows
Hall Capital Music Hall soon to start
Chisholm Creek will have an amphitheater and indoor music venue, likely booked by Live Nation


And then you still have all the existing places.

Wow. This is very exciting news.

I really have to wonder if one of the biggest plagues to OKC in the last 25 years has been a large abundance of relatively wealthy individuals spending their money in other economies. Obviously at different times it's been worse or better, but it's insane to think that we've been so far behind in the restaurant/retail/music scene/entertainment for so long until recently. All of those things are getting better every single year by quite an impressive margin.

It's all very excellent news!

I really have to wonder if one of the biggest plagues to OKC in the last 25 years has been a large abundance of relatively wealthy individuals spending their money in other economies. Obviously at different times it's been worse or better, but it's insane to think that we've been so far behind in the restaurant/retail/music scene/entertainment for so long until recently. All of those things are getting better every single year by quite an impressive margin.

It's all very excellent news!

Good points. I've only been back since 2012 and its impressive how much that is taken for granted now wasn't here even then.

Because of OKC's central location and low cost of living, it really hasn't been a big deal for people who live here to spend the weekend in Tulsa or in Dallas. I once spoke with a guy who moved back here in the middle of the last decade from a big city, I forget where, and he said that when he first moved back he and his wife would spend almost every weekend in DFW. Today, as things have improved in OKC he doesn't go down there near as often.

For a very long time OKC suffered a very, very poor self image. It was much cooler to say you got something in Dallas than OKC. Good restaurants and shops here failed over and over for a long time. But much has changed. Being Okie now is no longer the negative it was. The national perception has changed dramatically due to four things: the way the local people handled the tragedy of the bombing; the willingness of the citizens to PAY for improving the city (we take Maps for granted); the arrival of the NBA and the resultant association with other important cities that brings with it; and, the resurgence of the energy business in the US and specifically natural gas and OKC companies' role in discovery and development.

All those things have made OKC feel better about itself. When you feel better about yourself, others view you differently.

Sometimes I get criticized on here for being too positive it seems. But, I have been here and have been a loyal business person in this community for a long time. I have witnessed what happens to the city when disparate parties are working only for their own good and only from their own perspectives. When we learned to support each others' ideas with compromise without losing the drive for excellence, we began to rise. While we have lots to work on here, we shouldn't lose sight of how far we've come and how we got here.

As much as I look forward to the awesomeness of 21c and know the surrounding development will be a complete game-changer for west downtown, I'm going to miss the ultra-cool grittiness of all these buildings.

Couple of notes: 1) the metal structures in the 3rd photo are staying and should look really cool when everything is finished; 2) the two old buildings on the left of the last photo will be demolished; the music venue will be at the far right.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c052415a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c052415b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c052415c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c052415g.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c052415d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c052415e.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c052415f.jpg

disappointed about the demos

disappointed about the demos

Yeah, those are my favorite kind of buildings in OKC that were once widespread and often contiguous. They strike me as something that would really contribute to the rejuvenation of this side of town.

Do we know what they plan on putting in place of the demoed buildings?

I suspect and fear surface parking for the concert venue

I wouldn't think so. According to plans released for 901 W Sheridan, renderings and site plans hint at 3-5 story infill for that lot, perhaps a mixture of residential and retail.

Pete has posted those in the 901 thread and Steve also wrote a story with the same pictures on newsok.

ah, missed that

So how do we demo these buildings without knowing? Does it just not even matter at this point?

Keep the metal bldg but tear down the brick ones.. Pete, any chance it's the other way around? That would make more sense..

So how do we demo these buildings without knowing? Does it just not even matter at this point?

Keep the metal bldg but tear down the brick ones.. Pete, any chance it's the other way around? That would make more sense..

Everything on this block would be torn down but the two red-brick buildings on the far right. This has been the plan since I reported it months ago:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/21c052415f.jpg

The nearer buildings in that photo (that I like) are West-most I thought. Was I just confused (likely) about which were getting demoed?

The nearer buildings in that photo (that I like) are West-most I thought. Was I just confused (likely) about which were getting demoed?

Sorry, I may have mis-stated.

The buildings in green are the only ones that were ever going to stay:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/hallcap2.jpg