With regard to facades, if it enhances the pedestrian experience I am all for it.

I just don't think facadism, especially in this example, should be categorically condemned. Here it does a lot more for placemaking than it hurts for HP.

I have always been fairly opposed to the Dept of Interior HP standards. I just had a coffee shop debate with some really interesting people who oppose me on "gentrification" in Ohio, to the point that they called the historic standards "white." As if a building code can have a skin color. I think the old school historic preservation establishment has done a lot of harm with its strict standards, and its willingness to see buildings demolished if they can't comply with the high standards for HP.

It comes down to a debate as to whether standards really save historic resources, which has been the guiding light of the HP movement.

Facadism can look pretty cool if it's incorporated properly into the new structure... or it can look pretty atrocious if not done well. As long as it doesn't look like any of the nightmares shown in this article (http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2014/aug/25/front-facade-bad-developments-ruining-historic-buildings), I'm generally OK with it...

Just to be clear, demolishing a building and then building a replica out of new or even somewhat recycled materials is not facadism. It is something else entirely. Maybe there is a term for it, but replica architecture would suffice for a name if not. At least facadism makes use of the historic structure's preserved facade. To some extent the MAPS-funded reconstruction of the Civic Center could be considered facadism, and I doubt few would disagree that what was done there was great.

Just to be clear, demolishing a building and then building a replica out of new or even somewhat recycled materials is not facadism. It is something else entirely. Maybe there is a term for it, but replica architecture would suffice for a name if not. At least facadism makes use of the historic structure's preserved facade. To some extent the MAPS-funded reconstruction of the Civic Center could be considered facadism, and I doubt few would disagree that what was done there was great.

I think we can all drink to this.

..., and I doubt few would disagree that what was done there was great.

I've already been drinking to it plenty, apparently. Help me out here and get rid of some of the negatives: Do a lot of people like it or hate it?

I think it was pretty universally lauded. Great acoustics, good performance space. It's a modern building build within a historic facade, one that would have been tragic to lose. The historic integrity of the interior was so compromised over years of renovation that there wasn't really anything left to restore. In a lot of ways it was like the recent Hotel Marion renovation, as were the heroic measures they went to in order to keep the walls of the old building. In cases like that, there is nothing wrong with the approach from an HP standpoint, and in fact lots of preservationists would say that it is a superior approach versus trying to recreate the historic interior, which would result in an inauthentic "false history."

But again, this is a very different thing from demolishing a building and then recreating a replica, whether the materials used are original or just approximation.

Another rendering of the parking garage... This will be the view from Classen.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res21c081115.jpg

I was just noticing the drawings at the top only have the 1st floor. Can you post the 2nd/3rd floors? When I'm sitting at the light there and looking at the building I'm having trouble visualizing more than 50 rooms, but I know it's supposed to be 100+.

OKCTalk - Final plans for the Residences at 21c set to go to design review (http://www.okctalk.com/content/198-final-plans-residences-21c-set-go-design-review.html)



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res21new.jpg


Note that the revised plans for Building A now show office rather than retail on the Classen corner:


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res21ca081215b.jpg

It looks great. But I really don't like closing Fred Jones Blvd to make the building contiguous.

We have way too many superblocks, and with the coming years the jail may be open to development, giving us a chance to extend the grid further. This building will block north south connectivity to what may eventually be a new developable area where the jail complex is.

Aside from the superblock, long buildings are just a pain to walk by. They feel like they will never end. You need intersections to provide breaks in buildings, and to keep your mind active while walking.

I think closing that little bit of Fred Jones is the only way not to have some little, inefficient building on the NE corner.

Also, I don't doubt that blocking the view to the county jail to the immediate north is part of this, and you can't blame them for that.

I watched the last presentation they made on the project and was very impressed with the amount of time and thought that went into the planning and design. They have been working on this plan for some time and it's morphed as they've stepped through the process.

Little inefficient building? The size of that small corner lot without the Row could fit the Uhaul building on it.

But with no parking.

The idea is for the residences and retail there to be directly attached to the parking.


They had originally proposed that corner as a stand-alone with some parking and it was a mess.

I see. I still think it is a planning oversight that we will regret in the next 10-20 years when the jail comes down, and classen continues to mature to the north and merge with Midtown and SoSa

Love the Film row logo on the side of one of the buildings looks awesome overall.

It seems to me that while ground floor retail is great in these buildings, we are in danger of having small pockets of retail distributed over a large area downtown where there can be no real synergy for the retailers. Maybe the numbers work out that you only need a market within a few block radius, but it won't draw the kind of retailers to entice people to come to the area unless they already live there. I just wish the core (hear us First National) could get there act together and put together an efficient and attractive ground level urban shopping district.

in a word, no. I love this project overall, and in a great way, but a historic building is either worth preserving or its not. The facadism craze, or worse, the recent tendency to demolish and recreate is fakery. It's not authentic. Even worse is the 499 approach; demolishing a place and featuring its sign on your new building. These "nods" to history are unintentionally more insulting than they are respectful. Why is a building worth memorializing/imitating if it's not worth preserving?

In the case of the 21C/Hall Capital projects, the higher and better use is pretty clear. If you're not going to incorporate the actual historic buildings, make the new ones great and move on down the road.

Function over form. The new building will function better but tries to recreate some of the previous form. It's a lot cheaper to build new with modern standards and pay homage to the old form than it is to remodel an old building with modern standards. That's generally speaking of course.

That's why. Whether you like function over form, or form over function is an entirely separate debate.

You're NOT paying homage to the old building by doing that, no matter how many times you tell yourself that you are. Just build a great new building that stands on its own merits. Incorporate design elements from the old one in the new one? Sure. Make a replica? Don't bother. It will always be a cheap imitation. Just. Make. The. New. Building. Great.

You don't have to lecture me on form v function or old v new; I have been around many, many development projects - both new build and HP - for the past 30 years. I understand the values and challenges of each type of construction. Thoroughly.

It seems to me that while ground floor retail is great in these buildings, we are in danger of having small pockets of retail distributed over a large area downtown where there can be no real synergy for the retailers. Maybe the numbers work out that you only need a market within a few block radius, but it won't draw the kind of retailers to entice people to come to the area unless they already live there. I just wish the core (hear us First National) could get there act together and put together an efficient and attractive ground level urban shopping district.

Fix the abomination that is traffic on Broadway and Automobile Alley will be that "district"

And honestly, it needs to be Broadway because the CBD is an unfixable (at least, not for less than multiple hundreds of millions) hell hole of street-interaction. Deep Deuce is already clearly a residential neighborhood, Bricktown is an entertainment district and everything else downtown is simply too undeveloped and sparse to ever become anything like that.

As everything in this city has always been: Go north young-man!

From warreng88 as demolition continues at this site.

I should have bought stock in Midwest Wrecking; they seem to be the busiest group in town.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res21082615.jpg

A majority of the windows on the 4th floor have already been replaced with new windows. You can also see that framing and sheet rock have already been installed. The room framing started on the top floor and they worked their way down. 3rd floor looks like it's far along also. Excited for this project to open up, we will have a cool little block area with the hotel and music hall.

I _thought_ they looked like new windows but I wasn't sure...

Any updates on this project as a whole? I drove by 21C thismorning and you can see where they've installed duct work, AC equipment, and are starting to frame the internal walls.

Any updates on this project as a whole? I drove by 21C thismorning and you can see where they've installed duct work, AC equipment, and are starting to frame the internal walls.

21C Museum Hotel? It's being finished from the top down and work on the first floor is just getting started good. Most of the framing, drywall, HVAC is installed on 2 through 4 but there appears to still be plenty to do. I don't know when opening is planned but it will be awhile. Not 2015. Spring 2016 is probably optimistic IMO.

I was referring to the adjascent apartments and retail where the buildings were demoed

11879 seen this came out this morning, not quite sure if this is the same project or not.

^

It is.

You must have access to isqft!

Looks like the first phase of this project will be Building C, which will be directly south of the 21c Hotel.

I'm sure it's because the attached parking garage will be needed for the hotel.

They have Building C out to bid now.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/residences071715a.jpg

This project makes me think of this

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/south-park/clip-thumbnails/season-19/1903/south-park-s19e03c07-the-lofts-at-sodosopa_16x9.jpg?

This project makes me think of this

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/south-park/clip-thumbnails/season-19/1903/south-park-s19e03c07-the-lofts-at-sodosopa_16x9.jpg?

"Welcome Home"

Will this be for-sale or for-rent housing?

Just got the full scoop on construction...

They will be starting in July and building out all parts of this at the same time.

The one exception is that Building B will only start after the Garage in C is complete. They will use the Building B lot as parking for 21c until Garage C is complete, which will take 10-11 months after starting in July. But, Building B is the smallest of the structures so it's expected everything will finish about the same time.

Construction duration for the entire project will be 26 months, which means a finish date of September of 2018.

This is going to be a massive construction site, especially since Jones Assembly will be going on at the same time. 21c should be open by the time they start.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res21new1.jpg

That's going to be a HUGE construction site. Will be really amazing to watch it all come together at once, kind of like East Bricktown is doing right now. Will be a great site to fly some aerial drones in.

It's going to suck for the hotel but on the other hand, it will all be done at once and that entire area will be instantly transformed.

Can't wait!

The area is a bit derelict now, but if I was a betting man, I would bet on the area. It will soon be dramatically transformed in the best way. Lots of momentum and this development is one of those "game changers" for an entire area.

I was wondering about this the other day when I went to check out how progress was going at BOK Park Plaza. Can't wait to see this get underway! Imagine the possibilities of this entire area developing over the coming decade!

Pete did you get all that from the pre-bid video?

Pete,

Steve has a full article in the paper about this project. Do you have the renderings and other info on this?

There was no new info in his article today other than asking for $4 million in TIF funds; and in fact did not have the detail of the construction timeline I outlined above.

There were only two new renderings but they were both just different perspectives of Building D of what has already been posted.

Also they will continue the Film Row streetscaping down Main and Sheridan; I dont think that was previously reported.

^

It was shown in all the plans.

They really don't have much choice, as they are reworking entire blocks.

I was just thinking about this project this morning, and though everyone has already said how big of an impact this will be, when I finally just sat down and thought about all the changes that are planned I was kind of mind blown. This is seriously going to be a game changer for west downtown. The area is so run down right now and will be completely transformed by multiple projects.

add to that the Sunshine Cleaners renovation - which is why I (and likely Pete) said the TIF arrangement was appropriate for it. This is the creation of a district and actually an extension of Film Row all the way to Classen; so it makes sense for the city to pull out all stops to remove blight PARTICULARLY since THIS residential development will likely be higher end which would be more difficult to sell if blight was allowed to remain so close.

I was just thinking about this project this morning, and though everyone has already said how big of an impact this will be, when I finally just sat down and thought about all the changes that are planned I was kind of mind blown. This is seriously going to be a game changer for west downtown. The area is so run down right now and will be completely transformed by multiple projects.

It really is, when I was working on quotes on this job going through the plans and seeing all the changes, it's a huge development.

It's so easy to just glaze over and say "yeah this is going to be 'huge.'" But honestly it is going to transform that whole dilapidated area of west downtown. The Hotel was a start but this is going to be incredible.

Yep, I was driving those streets yesterday and if you look around and imagine all of those buildings there, it's hard to do. Probably even more impressive if you're on foot trying to imagine.

OKC Council approves $8.5M in TIF funds for downtown projects

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record April 5, 2016

OKLAHOMA CITY – City Council members approved $8.5 million Tuesday to help fund two MAPS-related projects downtown.

The first is a $66 million development of 345 apartment units in four buildings and about 9,200 square feet of commercial space just east of S. Classen Boulevard between W. Main Street and W. Sheridan Avenue. The project by the Newmark Grubb Levy Strange Beffort agency will receive $4 million under City Hall’s economic development plan for downtown through a tax increment finance district, or TIF.

The second allocation, worth $4.5 million, will go toward the acquisition of land for the new MAPS 3 convention center. The area is bounded by S. Broadway Avenue and S. Shields Boulevard between SW Fourth and SW Seventh streets, including the area approaching the northern right of way of the Union Pacific Railroad.

In both cases, city officials highlighted the need for more parking downtown. Mark Beffort promised about 800 parking spaces in four new parking garages and another 67 parking spaces along Sheridan and Fred Jones avenues.

“We actually have 2.33 parking spaces for every unit,” Beffort said. “We’re building additional parking because this particular area is growing and we hope to meet the demand for music venues as well as the 21C Hotel and ancillary retail services.”

Council members were interested in whether convention center land acquired by the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority on the city’s behalf could be used for parking or a hotel, as well as whether the city will be ready decades later for vehicle-sharing and driverless cars that may have different needs. Cathy O’Connor, president and CEO of the Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City, said City Hall cannot use the acquired land for business use, but parking space might fall into the plan.

The owners of some of the targeted parcels on the east and south side of the planned convention center may not want to give them up at reasonable prices, O’Connor said. Although eminent
domain proceedings are the last option city officials want to use, the Downtown/MAPS Tax Increment District No. 2 Review Committee recommended a TIF budget allocation that afforded the city enough flexibility to complete the task if it came to that.

The justification for using TIF funds through OCURA for acquisition and development was established in 2010 when the Core to Shore area just north of the Oklahoma River was declared blighted by the City Council.

City Manager Jim Couch said land acquisition for the convention center is still within the budget set by the MAPS 3 sales tax issue. City Council members have already approved spending $5 million. Councilman Ed Shadid questioned to what degree MAPS funds and TIF funds were overlapping.

“Could you argue that we’re using TIF funds to augment the convention center land acquisition budget?” Shadid asked O’Connor.

“You could,” she said. “But at the end, the council will have to consider whether they want those TIF funds to continue to support the convention center project or whether they want MAPS 3 to pay back the TIF fund. All of that will be yet to come when we know the exact boundaries, the exact dimensions of the property involved.”

Beffort said Newmark Grubb is spending about $3 million on infrastructure improvements, carrying Project 180 streetscaping into the new apartment area. The site also had a few environmental remediation issues that are awaiting approval by the Department of Environmental Quality.

One of the apartment buildings will feature a rooftop wading pool available to all the residents; another will have a clubhouse. Beffort stressed the idea of forming a community with a lot of interaction among people passing through.

At $66 million overall, the investment comes to about $150,000 per apartment unit. Rents are projected at $1.48 to $1.77 per square foot, although Beffort said it’s too early to tell how those figures will work out in the market. Developers are applying for a loan through the U.S. Housing and Urban Development, he said.

The apartments will take two years to complete, beginning this fall, Beffort said, although residential occupation may begin as soon as 15 months.

Some screen captures of new renderings that were shown in yesterday's council meeting:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res040616a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res040616b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res040616c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res040616d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/res040616f.jpg

That blasted jail building has to be looming in the background...

Man that project is really going to transform that area and quickly!

Wow, this is going to be so cool!

Very excited for this project, any word if any of the apartments/condos will be FOR SALE?

Very excited for this project, any word if any of the apartments/condos will be FOR SALE?

That's a good question.

I know the large majority of the units will be apartments but there has been mention of a smaller number of condos. I'll see if I can find out any more details.

I don't like throwing this description around lightly, but this really is a game changer for OKC.

I don't like throwing this description around lightly, but this really is a game changer for OKC.

My hope is that it'll set off a chain reaction of development along Classen, Main, and Sheridan. Get that area really revamped.

I don't like throwing this description around lightly, but this really is a game changer for OKC.

Assuming it goes through as planned, I'd say it really deserves that description.

It will be especially impactful because all of it will be built at the same time and be complete in just 2 years.

Amazing to think about.

Assuming it goes through as planned, I'd say it really deserves that description.

At minimum, it will be a game changer for film row no doubt.

This is entirely speculation, but it kind of makes me wonder if the success of Bricktown and Deep Deuce have been limited a bit by the natural barriers of the interstates to the immediate east and south. Looking at this development, it feels like success here could lead to additional development in just about every direction.

That's possibly too simplistic of a view, but it's where my mind is wandering at the moment.