Hey guys, quick question. I was talking to a buddy today who just got a permit to put in a storm shelter. We had one put in over a year ago shortly after buying our first house. We didn't know that we had to get a permit for it as we thought the company installing it was supposed to. They never brought it up with us either. Do you guys think I could get a permit after-the-fact pretty easily? It was an underground install in the garage. Our house was built with a cutout in the concrete so we could install one.

Just curious, is there a reason the city wants you to have a permit to install a storm shelter? That seems ridiculous to have to have the city approve it, but I'm sure they have come up with a reason. Is it so emergency responders know you have one? Does I cost money to get a permit for one?

I'm not sure, to be perfectly honest. I would imagine that they want to make sure it is anchored properly. It really isn't that big of a deal. Cut a hole in the concrete, dig a hole, insert steel box with a door. I just don't want to be holding the short-end of the stick if I sell my house someday.

Yes, you can file for a permit but in the case the plans don't meet standards, changes will be mandated.

And there would also have to be inspections after it is issued.

Well, they put in the same one as the neighbors down the road, so I think all is good there. Unfortunately, mine did need to be welded a bit after the fact because one of the seems broke because of a manufacturing issue. No leaks in over a year though. Ugh...I hope that I'm just over thinking this and worrying over nothing....

I'm sure if you contacted the City about this they would be happy to talk you through the issues.

You wouldn't have to give your name and address; just get educated. They are a pretty helpful group for the most part.

I'm not sure, to be perfectly honest. I would imagine that they want to make sure it is anchored properly. It really isn't that big of a deal. Cut a hole in the concrete, dig a hole, insert steel box with a door. I just don't want to be holding the short-end of the stick if I sell my house someday.

In some of the burbs around here, they want to know just in case of an F-5, that way they can come dig you out.

What is your reasoning for getting the permit now? My knee jerk reaction would be to tell you to just let it go. Its not like they are going to come knock on your door and ask if you have a shelter in your garage and want to see a permit.

I know in Edmond they simply want to see where you plan on putting the shelter (if outdoors). You have to provide them with a map.

If in the garage they said they don't really need anything - just your money. And they specifically told me they never come around to inspect after installation.

The only concern I would have is for a reputable company that didn't make sure there was a permit in place. Most companies will tell you how to get a permit, but its your responsibility to get it and then you have to show it to them before they will instal.

At this point I'd be fearful they know they may not be selling an approved shelter etc, and you could be opening a can of worms.

But, I'm not exactly known for playing by the rules, so do whatever you feel most comfortable with. I'm just failing to see the point after the fact.

The issue is that if/when you sell, you have to disclose that it's not permitted.

The issue is that if/when you sell, you have to disclose that it's not permitted.

Or what? The storm shelter police are going to show up magically? Before you go on, and on, yeah, I know there are legal ramifications written in the law. But, then there is reality.

If the company that installed the shelter is reputable (I would have some doubts based on the fact they didn't follow the rules in the first place) - but, accidents happen. So, it could have just been an oversight. Then the fix will be easy.

You'll need to get the spec of the shelter and a basic floorpan of your house. Take those two things to the city and pay the permit fee (yes, even after the fact). As long as the shelter company installed an approved shelter you're good and there is not going to be a significant (or any) penalty, inspection, etc.

If the shelter is not an approved shelter, then you're on the city's radar and it probably is going to be expensive to undo.

This is all assuming you're in OKC. Believe it or not, this happens fairly often.

I'd first make sure the shelter installed is approved and was installed in a manner that meets the city's requirement (not many for indoor installation). If it meets those then go get your permit. If it doesn't - I wouldn't ever mention it again. But, that's just me.

The 'or what' is that buyers won't pay as much for something that isn't permitted, and may even see it as a liability.

The 'or what' is that buyers won't pay as much for something that isn't permitted, and may even see it as a liability.

Considering I've bought and sold several residential properties, I can say without hesitation, 'permitting' has never been a factor whatsoever. The house I just sold had a 500 sq. foot add-on. No idea if it was permitted (I assume so). Sold the house for thousands more than the realtor said I could even ask for it.

The house I bought has an add-on and out buildings. No idea if they were permitted and don't care. It all passed inspection.

Someone (a normal person) buying a house will have no idea if a homeowner got a permit for their storm shelter and won't care as long as there is no water in it and it passed inspection.

Again, if its all on the up-and-up then go get it permitted after the fact. If not, and you're not having safety issues with it. Let it go.

There you go - we've got two different opinions. The magic of the Internet. Now the home owner can make an informed decision as to what to do.

*In reality, a home owner could present most any shelter spec they want to the city and get a permit regardless of what is really put in the ground. There is no in person inspection.

If you are aware of non-permitted work (as this person is), law requires you to disclose it to any buyer.

If you are aware of non-permitted work (as this person is), law requires you to disclose it to any buyer.

Has he called the city to make sure there was or was not a permit issued? Has he personally talked to the storm shelter company to make sure in his case they didn't get the permit? If "no" then he has no idea if indeed there was a permit or not. He simply has a concern.

Has he called to make sure all the electrical work, sprinkler system, plumbing, etc. was actually permitted? No.

I know people that had shelters installed that they simply couldn't get a permit for - because the city wants to dictate where on you own property you can put a shelter. They had the shelters installed anyway and I say bravo.

I would leave it alone. If the city really wanted to get sticky, they could have you remove the whole thing and start over. Oh, and you'd have to get a permit for that too.

BBates is right.... leave it be.

If you are aware of non-permitted work (as this person is), law requires you to disclose it to any buyer.

And what are the consequences if you don't?

I've been working on a spreadsheet for all of my home's comps and used Zillow to track down the sales and then cross-referenced with the county assessor and found that there were more than a few homes that had higher square footage numbers on Zillow than the C.A. I assume in some cases that additions were made to these homes and that they were never permitted.

Also, in the case of a home that has had multiple owners, you could just as easily say, even for something as large as an addition, that "This was here when I bought the house".

Maybe I should start another thread for this, but it would be good to know what home modifications require permitting and what doesn't.

And what are the consequences if you don't?

I've been working on a spreadsheet for all of my home's comps and used Zillow to track down the sales and then cross-referenced with the county assessor and found that there were more than a few homes that had higher square footage numbers on Zillow than the C.A. I assume in some cases that additions were made to these homes and that they were never permitted.

Also, in the case of a home that has had multiple owners, you could just as easily say, even for something as large as an addition, that "This was here when I bought the house".

That's pretty much how it works. On the house I owned over in Mayfair addition, I knew there had been an addition added between the house and the garage, creating what we called a breeze way, because it was screened in with operational louvers. When I added central H&A, I ran duct out to the breezeway and enclosed it. I also knew that there had been termite damage to a small part of the kitchen and out in the garage. I also had that repaired. When I sold the house, I thoroughly disclosed the termite damage, but never mentioned anything about the breezeway.

One problem you could encounter as the previous owners of my home did, you can't sell it till it's brought up to code. When our place was built (1968), the well didn't need anything surrounding it. When we bought it in 1975, a concrete pad around the well was required. We had an appointment to close but Local Federal called and cancelled when they were notified by the OKC inspector. They said the owners had been informed and they would reschedule when the pad was poured and inspected, and they had been notified by the inspector or his/her office that the home met code requirements.
C. T.

One problem you could encounter as the previous owners of my home did, you can't sell it till it's brought up to code. When our place was built (1968), the well didn't need anything surrounding it. When we bought it in 1975, a concrete pad around the well was required. We had an appointment to close but Local Federal called and cancelled when they were notified by the OKC inspector. They said the owners had been informed and they would reschedule when the pad was poured and inspected, and they had been notified by the inspector or his/her office that the home met code requirements.
C. T.

I can see that happening. When your dealing with well and septic, inspections and testing are required, which involves the Water Resources Board and the state EPA records. We delt with those inspections when we sold our acreage. We just needed to sanitize our well, but were required to pay a well company to do it so there was an official record. No updates were required.

But usually, just about anything else on a property can be sold as is.

Yikes! Lots of back-and-forth here. I called the city and they said, "no big deal. Go ahead and get it permitted." After talking with the company, he mentioned that it was my responsibility to get the permit originally, and he apologized for not communicating that thoroughly before we started the work. He also seemed kinda annoyed that I wanted to get a permit now, but oh well. Anyway, I went and got the permit today, and everybody was really nice about it. They said a guy will come by and either drive by and check it off the list or he'll actually come in and look to see if there is actually a shelter in place. There really isn't a lot of rules/laws regarding in-ground storm shelters, and most of the nuts-and-bolts behind their installation cannot be inspected after their installation anyway. Also, they said that when you sell your house, and they find work that has been done that wasn't permitted, they can/will charge you $5000 for each thing.

The only bad thing was that the shelter originally leaked but was traced back to a manufacturing issue. It was welded up after installation, and after reading the blueprints on the unit, they have that written in there that that can be an issue that comes up from time-to-time. It doesn't leak now, but it just looks like crap because of the paint issue. I will repaint and have the guy come take a look and all should be good.

How are they going to find out? We didn't get a permit for our shelter and it never came up when the place was sold. The only thing the city has the time and manpower to pursue is when there is an accident involving unpermited work. Otherwise, if they don't drive by and catch it, or if somone doesn't complain I wouldn't worry about it.

Well, it is a game of risks, right? Personally, I would rather be in line with the law regardless how big of a deal we think it is here. If that means risking having to rip it out and do it again, then so be it. I mean, that would really suck, but they wouldn't have me rip it out unless there is something wrong with the unit. Honestly, I have to ask myself what the bigger deal is at the end of the day? Trying to sell my house and possibly running into issues/losing money because of no permit in a situation where I may need to sell the house quickly or getting a permit/inspection denied now and fixing it with no time crunch and probably for less money in the end? (Sorry that was long winded.)

Maybe I'm overthinking it and worrying about nothing, but maybe I'm not. The bigger question, like somebody said before, where is the line drawn at which we don't have to get a permit to do work to our own house?

Maybe I should start another thread for this, but it would be good to know what home modifications require permitting and what doesn't.In short, anything that could be considered an alteration to a structure or building system requires a permit. Maintenance does not. For instance, changing a bad electrical outlet doesn't require a permit. By the letter of the law adding an outlet does require a permit. But your not going to find an electrician who's going to pull a permit to add an outlet. There's a generally accepted line of the amount of work to be done before a permit is pulled.

I'm a bit off topic but felt like I needed to jump in and comment. As far as the square footage not the same as the county assessor, here is my take. You may have done all the permitting but it just doesn't get added. I've done a garage conversion and everything was permited and inspected, the additional square footage was not added as far as the county assessor. I do have an additional 20 x 20 building they say I have but wish I did. Oh well, taxes will just go up the 3 % so what the heck, it doesn't matter.

One problem you could encounter as the previous owners of my home did, you can't sell it till it's brought up to code. When our place was built (1968), the well didn't need anything surrounding it. When we bought it in 1975, a concrete pad around the well was required. We had an appointment to close but Local Federal called and cancelled when they were notified by the OKC inspector. They said the owners had been informed and they would reschedule when the pad was poured and inspected, and they had been notified by the inspector or his/her office that the home met code requirements.
C. T.

That may or may not be true. Regardless, it would come down to the home inspector actually knowing what is and is not code. My experience has been that home inspectors are a complete waste of money. I've never had them be able to identify real problems. In fact, the house I just sold they didn't even have it inspected and the bank didn't require an inspection - just an appraisal.

I know the house we just bought we had inspected. But they didn't catch that the wiring in the attic was not to code, and the water heater was not installed to code. We had to replace both later out of safety concerns brought to our attention by contractors.

Yikes! Lots of back-and-forth here. I called the city and they said, "no big deal. Go ahead and get it permitted." After talking with the company, he mentioned that it was my responsibility to get the permit originally, and he apologized for not communicating that thoroughly before we started the work. He also seemed kinda annoyed that I wanted to get a permit now, but oh well. Anyway, I went and got the permit today, and everybody was really nice about it. They said a guy will come by and either drive by and check it off the list or he'll actually come in and look to see if there is actually a shelter in place. There really isn't a lot of rules/laws regarding in-ground storm shelters, and most of the nuts-and-bolts behind their installation cannot be inspected after their installation anyway. Also, they said that when you sell your house, and they find work that has been done that wasn't permitted, they can/will charge you $5000 for each thing.

The only bad thing was that the shelter originally leaked but was traced back to a manufacturing issue. It was welded up after installation, and after reading the blueprints on the unit, they have that written in there that that can be an issue that comes up from time-to-time. It doesn't leak now, but it just looks like crap because of the paint issue. I will repaint and have the guy come take a look and all should be good.

Alls well that ends well. Like I said, it happens a lot and as long as the shelter is an approved shelter in an approved location they will permit after the fact - which proves its just a money grab for the city and they couldn't care less about safety, etc.

As for "they said that when you sell your house, and they find work that has been done that wasn't permitted, they can/will charge you $5000 for each thing." That's all gov't B.S. They won't be a part of your house sale and they won't know when the work was done.

As for "they said that when you sell your house, and they find work that has been done that wasn't permitted, they can/will charge you $5000 for each thing." That's all gov't B.S. They won't be a part of your house sale and they won't know when the work was done.

Yeah, I kinda figured the same thing.

I'm a bit off topic but felt like I needed to jump in and comment. As far as the square footage not the same as the county assessor, here is my take. You may have done all the permitting but it just doesn't get added. I've done a garage conversion and everything was permited and inspected, the additional square footage was not added as far as the county assessor. I do have an additional 20 x 20 building they say I have but wish I did. Oh well, taxes will just go up the 3 % so what the heck, it doesn't matter.

Do you by chance have a basement (conditioned, livable space)? Our house is listed at 800-900 SF less on the county assessor website than it actually measures of livable space. I was told by an appraiser that, even though our 2-room basement is heated and cooled, has windows and serves as (1) a really nice den; and (2) a laundry and storage room, that they are not allowed to include that square footage in an official appraisal. Anybody else know anything about this?

Another thing I don't like is that the value listed on the assessor website is way higher than what it'd fetch if we sold it today. I'm sure that's just so they can tax us more.

That may or may not be true. Regardless, it would come down to the home inspector actually knowing what is and is not code. My experience has been that home inspectors are a complete waste of money. I've never had them be able to identify real problems. In fact, the house I just sold they didn't even have it inspected and the bank didn't require an inspection - just an appraisal.

I know the house we just bought we had inspected. But they didn't catch that the wiring in the attic was not to code, and the water heater was not installed to code. We had to replace both later out of safety concerns brought to our attention by contractors.

Interesting, been thinking of going into the home inspection career field, sounds like they need some good ones here, good to know...

Interesting, been thinking of going into the home inspection career field, sounds like they need some good ones here, good to know...

It's a crowded field. There's a bunch of them out there. But when you get established, and can get on lists with a variety of realtors, you may do all right.

Interesting, been thinking of going into the home inspection career field, sounds like they need some good ones here, good to know...

I've used three different ones and none were any good. They'd arrive and put on a good show, but they always missed very obvious things. When my mom bought her brand new home in Edmond the inspector was so embarrassed by the things we found before closing that he gave her her money back.

I'd value a good home inspector, I just haven't been able to find one. Too many people going to vo-tech to get their little certificate without really knowing or caring about the job they perform.

I've used three different ones and none were any good. They'd arrive and put on a good show, but they always missed very obvious things. When my mom bought her brand new home in Edmond the inspector was so embarrassed by the things we found before closing that he gave her her money back.

I'd value a good home inspector, I just haven't been able to find one. Too many people going to vo-tech to get their little certificate without really knowing or caring about the job they perform.

Cool, thanks for elaborating, been wanting to get out of sys admin for a while, thinking about home inspection. Too old for construction work, but learning and knowing how all the systems in a house fit together would be interesting work, I think. As a (previously mainframe, now UNIX) sys admin, pretty much every bit (and byte) of what I do has to be perfect, otherwise things just don't work, and that's the way I am in most everything I do, I don't do things half-***ed, so I might be able to do fairly well if other home inspectors just aren't up to snuff....