At this point in the game, the Hornets don't have too many other decent options. I suppose KC is probably the best option financially, but they don't have a decent arena in place. If I were the owners of the Hornets, I wouldn't stay in Louisiana this year....there's no one in New Orleans to watch them play.

The brass of the New Orleans Hornets went to Baton Rouge today to scout possible locations concerning the upcoming season. Click on the link to hear a recent interview on ESPN Radio with Hornets General Manager Allan Bristow.

RadioInterview (http://mfile.akamai.com/10477/asf/espn.download.akamai.com/10477/gnight_050905_ab._wma_16_audio.asf)

Baton Rouge is questionable due to the scheduling conflicts with the LSU mens and womens basketball teams.

Kansas City's arena is subpar, and that's being nice.

Although I'm somewhat of a homer, I think Oklahoma City presents the best situation for the team at this time.

San Diego and Las Vegas are now in the mix too

The Hornets belong in New Orleans, now and forever. In the interim, they should stay in Louisiana. LSU in Baton Rouge is very much able to accomodate them. For those of you licking your lips at the thought of luring them here permanently because of this catastrophe: Shame on you.

Personally, I don't forsee any major league teams coming to Oklahoma--period. Major league teams are drawn to locales more progressive and prosperous than any city in Oklahoma.

I don't know how many of you have actually ever left this state, but people's perceptions of Oklahoma are horrible, and sadly their perceptions are pretty accurate. Those perceptions spill over into the business community. Ever notice how other cities in other states "get things" before we do. Ever notice how Oklahoma is usually the last to catch on when it comes to national things? We were one of the last places to get Starbucks. Verizon Wireless is only now beginning to talk about coming here. We don't have Costco. I can name several restaurant chains that are everywhere else but here. What companies are beating down the doors to do business here? When you mention Oklahoma out on the coasts, people laugh. Face it, no one wants to come here or do business in a place so proud to be "Conservative." No one wants to do business in a place famous for censorship, fat country singers and tornados.

The one thing I have yet to hear about is the fact that the Ford Center is completely debt-free and that fact alone would limit the overhead costs for a team and lower ticket prices. OKC is in a unique situation because of this. Believe it or not, this city was smarter than any other by not taking on debt over a number of years. Any owner, including the league should be salivating over coming to OKC.

The Hornets belong in New Orleans, now and forever. In the interim, they should stay in Louisiana. LSU in Baton Rouge is very much able to accomodate them. For those of you licking your lips at the thought of luring them here permanently because of this catastrophe: Shame on you.

Well, that's not what's going on. New Orleans and the Hornets are in a bad way, obviously. In order for the team to stay solvent, they need a place where they can operate with positive cash flow or receive a great deal of subsidizing, which, frankly, I feel would be a gross misdirection of resources given the thousands of lives affected by this tragedy. In any event, it means they have to move, at least for a period of time. If they can stay in LA and make it work, good for them. If it makes sense to move, OKC is an option and that is what is being discussed. The Hornets need a place to play more than any of the markets want to host them. It would actually be shameful to not offer our services. Doing so allows NOLA and LA to focus squarely on the grave issues facing them at this time.

No doubt this is a petty discussion in context of the events in the gulf coast. But given that it is an isolated discussion from which it is hard to garner what efforts or contributions those posting here have made to recovery or humanistic efforts in the region, it is short sighted and irresponsible to judge anyone's character in that way based solely on this thread or the operations of the Hornets.

As for your other comments, you forget one factor: change. Many here are very active in trying to change those aspects of Oklahoma you mentioned, both in reality and perception. In fact, I think the source of sentiment which offended you was directly tied to the idea by some that the presence of a major league team, even and maybe especially as an act of assistance, would help change some of the negative perceptions of Oklahoma.

The Hornets belong in New Orleans, now and forever. In the interim, they should stay in Louisiana. LSU in Baton Rouge is very much able to accomodate them. For those of you licking your lips at the thought of luring them here permanently because of this catastrophe: Shame on you.

Personally, I don't forsee any major league teams coming to Oklahoma--period. Major league teams are drawn to locales more progressive and prosperous than any city in Oklahoma.

I don't know how many of you have actually ever left this state, but people's perceptions of Oklahoma are horrible, and sadly their perceptions are pretty accurate. Those perceptions spill over into the business community. Ever notice how other cities in other states "get things" before we do. Ever notice how Oklahoma is usually the last to catch on when it comes to national things? We were one of the last places to get Starbucks. Verizon Wireless is only now beginning to talk about coming here. We don't have Costco. I can name several restaurant chains that are everywhere else but here. What companies are beating down the doors to do business here? When you mention Oklahoma out on the coasts, people laugh. Face it, no one wants to come here or do business in a place so proud to be "Conservative." No one wants to do business in a place famous for censorship, fat country singers and tornados.


If your so anti-Oklahoma City why post on a board specifically for people interested in OKC. OKC is not a bad place to live, there will be a major league team eventually, the city can support it and will when the time comes.

Why not jump at a chance when it comes along, yes the catastrophe happened with New Orleans, but again that city built the levys which could withstand a category 3 hurricane, not a category 5. Stuff happens, yes and the whole country is helping out to fix one of the biggest cities this country has. Would OKC benefit from getting the Hornets for a year absolutely, would the Hornets -- should I even ask?

The perceptions you are talking about, is that how you feel about OKC? Why not do something to help change it instead of speak about it. Personally I feel this city has come along way. Yes it has a long way to go, but go to any city and tell me there is not something you will come back not agreeing with or disliking. To each their own.

Lets face it some things you said where just outright wrong. Places which OKC does not have, okay yes there are some in the country who do not have everything. Does everywhere in the USA have a Sonic? NO What about a Braums? Last thing, fat country singers. Really please don't post about things you do not have 100% facts on before posting. Oklahoma has produced some of the most recognizable country artists in the world. I can only think of a couple, Garth Brooks, Toby Keith, Reba McEntire, Ronnie Dunn (Brooks & Dunn), Ty England, Wade Hayes. This just to name a few. Oh yeah didn't that girl from Oklahoma win some reality show, American Idol?

Not trying to start an argument, just stating a debate about what you posted.

I have a feeling that these "outside perceptions" he talks about are really just based on his own perceptions, which IMO are misguided. I don't think people think about us as being backward or un-progressive. And to think that because we are conservative means we wont get a pro team? Look at Salt Lake City. You can't get much more conservative than the Mormon capital of the world, and yet--wait a minute, dont they have an NBA team?

The Hornets belong in New Orleans, now and forever. In the interim, they should stay in Louisiana. LSU in Baton Rouge is very much able to accomodate them. For those of you licking your lips at the thought of luring them here permanently because of this catastrophe: Shame on you.

Personally, I don't forsee any major league teams coming to Oklahoma--period. Major league teams are drawn to locales more progressive and prosperous than any city in Oklahoma.

I don't know how many of you have actually ever left this state, but people's perceptions of Oklahoma are horrible, and sadly their perceptions are pretty accurate. Those perceptions spill over into the business community. Ever notice how other cities in other states "get things" before we do. Ever notice how Oklahoma is usually the last to catch on when it comes to national things? We were one of the last places to get Starbucks. Verizon Wireless is only now beginning to talk about coming here. We don't have Costco. I can name several restaurant chains that are everywhere else but here. What companies are beating down the doors to do business here? When you mention Oklahoma out on the coasts, people laugh. Face it, no one wants to come here or do business in a place so proud to be "Conservative." No one wants to do business in a place famous for censorship, fat country singers and tornados.

I'm not sure how well you know people on this forum, Moondog, or any person in Oklahoma. But FYI, most of us HAVE traveled out of state, and out of the country. But since you obviously aren't familiar with economics or familiar with the marketing arena, I'd say you wasted your time with the post you wrote.

Are their bad perceptions of Oklahoma? Yes. Are they accurate? No. I'll break your post down for you.

You say Oklahoma prides itself on being conservative. No, sorry. No one in my life is proud of conservativism. In fact, everyone is accusing the state of being conservative, but I still have yet to shake the hands of a proud conservative. And I am very social.

You say Oklahoma is usually the last state to 'get things'? That's an assumption of a high school student. Oklahoma isn't the first state to 'get things' because of economics. Oklahomans usually have a very bad habit of pitting themselves against cities in California, Texas, Florida, Illinois and New York. But you forget, those states are the country's largest markets. Companies beat down the doors to do business in the largest markets before trickling down to North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, and Washington.
The last states that usually 'get things' are your small market states... Arkansas, Nebraska, North Dakota, Montana, and the like. Or did you forget those states exist. By classification, Oklahoma is a middle-tier market state. Don't argue with me on this one, I learned about this in micro-economics class from a professor... from California. Did a suburb in Kansas get a Starbucks before Oklahoma City got a Starbucks? Yes. Why? Because Overland Park is a wealthy suburb of Kansas City...... Missouri. The market was there. Yet 24 other cities in other states were still without Starbucks when Oklahoma City got theirs.

You say no one will come to Oklahoma because of our conservative image. So you say the Mormon state of Utah, Salt Lake City, home to the Utah Jazz, is not conservative? In a state where the most stringest liquor laws exist? A state where virtually every form of gambling is illegal short of dog tracks? Not even Virginia, twice the population of Oklahoma, has a pro-team.

Fat country singers, tornadoes and censorship? Heck, you just described the entire south. Tennessee and Georgia have pro-teams. Oh, and so does North Carolina, and Missouri. I lost count of the religious billboards I saw along I-44 in Missouri between Springfield and St. Louis. The very state that serves as the national HQ for the Assembly of God Church.

Mention Oklahoma to coastal residents and they laugh? Based on my experience in New Jersey, Florida and New York, they were more curious than critical. Costco? The warehouse only sticks to the 30 largest metro markets. Restaurants? That's up to the franchisee. Gosh, did you take economics, or were you sick that day?

Sounds like you need to get out alot more. Does Oklahoma have its share of problems? You bet. But so does every state. That's just what it is. Nothing semantic.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/Smailies%2001-28-08/congrats.gif
Well said, okcpulse.

As one who is a transplant to this state (19 years ago) and only lived in the metro area now for the last 9 years, I'm not Oklahoma born and bred. But this state and this city has won me over and become my adoptive home. Before moving to Oklahoma, I lived in nine other states, including along the East Coast (as far north as Virginia Beach) and along the Gulf Cost (from Florida to Texas). When I found out I would be moving to Oklahoma, I must confess that I was distressed. At that time, Oklahoma didn't have the best image just emerging from the oil bust. Additionally, I didn't know much about that state and expected the worst. I would agree with what other said; any negative impression of Oklahoma City is mostly based on ignorance.

When friends or relatives come to Oklahoma and spend a reasonable amount of time here and they visit various sites, especially in the last five years, they come away with a much more favorable view of our city and state. Other than my sister-in-law, who grew up in Chicago and thinks anything smaller than that is rural, all were impressed; she simply thought it was a little small for her, but liked it nonetheless.

As one who has lived in other cities, both large and small, Oklahoma City is uniquely special; there are few other places right now that I would want to move to. My reasons are practical as much as anything else: larger cities that offer more "amenities" also bring with it more traffic headaches, more crime and higher living costs. My brother lives in Houston and I can drive home (from middle-OKC to Edmond) and back to work and start back home again in the time it takes for him to drive one way to work. They have a lot of things there in Houston but it takes forever to get there.

I, as are many other people in this forum, am very excited about the direction OKC is headed. MAPS was the absolute best thing that has happened to our city in the last 10 years. Bricktown, even with its shortcomings, is a great place to spend time, whether as a family or as a couple. It has a great atmosphere. It's not as grand as San Antonio's Riverwalk or comparable destinations in other cities, but it is growing and with each new addition becomes more of a destination for metro residents and those who live outside the metro.

Many of Moondog's complaints were either based on ignorance or were simply unfounded. And I agree that his perception of others' perceptions is skewed by his own feelings. I would simply say, Moondog, that your perceptions are the exception rather than the norm. We like this city and we like the direction it's going (generally). You can either be a part of the solution in making it better or a part of the problem (by simply being a naysayer and complainer).

It was announced this morning the NBA is touring the Ford Center this Friday. It appears to be between Kansas City and Oklahoma City. At least we are being recoginized.

We'll beat KC hands down. Kemper Arena doesn't begin to compare to the Ford Center.

And to Moondog, if New Orleans wants the Hornets bad enough, they need to show their support. Unfortunately, the owners of the Hornets have stated that the franchise hasn't been too profitable in New Orleans thus far.

I find it interesting how a news reporter is still calling our convention center the Myriad. Seems like by now people would get used to calling it the Cox Center.

-----------
"City's chance to host Hornets improves

By Dean Blevins
News 9

Hurricane Katrina's effects continue to be felt.


As we first reported at six the options for the relocation of the New Orleans Hornets are becoming less and less meaning OKC remains a viable option to the NBA.

Sources confirm the NBA is sending a site survey group to the city Friday.

They'll check out the Ford Center and also OCU where practices could be held.

Wednesday night, I contacted sources in several other cities being mentioned Tampa, Birmingham and San Diego all say their chances are slim to none.

The NBA in Vegas right now is a longshot-pardon pun.

That leaves Kansas City and OKC as the apparent frontrunners.

The Blazers would cooperate and move 9 home games to the Myriad to free up the Ford Center.

Mayor Mick Cornett had no comment other than to say OKC and the NBA hope things work out in Louisisana.

It's not impossible for Baton Rouge to be the new home. "

If it does come down to OKC receiving the Hornets, I wonder how that will affect the name change. Also, if this ends up becoming a bigger deal than first realized and ends up staying in OKC, would the franchise end up creating a new mascot other than a hornet. Hornet would not really be that fitting in this state. Anybody have any ideas of what they might like to see. Not trying to steal anything from New Orleans and I do have sympathy for those who went through a terrible tragedy, but OKC is not blind to tragedy. After all this state still has tornados, right?

Just a few ideas, even if the Hornets don't come to OKC just something to stir up some conversation. After all we got to start warming up the idea for a future deal.

Historically, names outlast locations in the NBA, as fans of the Minneapolis Lakers, Kansas City Kings and New Orleans Jazz will attest.

The Hornets were the Hornets when they were in Charlotte.

Historically, names outlast locations in the NBA, as fans of the Minneapolis Lakers, Kansas City Kings and New Orleans Jazz will attest.

The Hornets were the Hornets when they were in Charlotte.

and the San Diego Rockets

According to the NBA, the Hornets are not happy with New Orleans to begin with, so, indications are the relocation is planned to be permanant, and Oklahoma City is the current frontrunner. We have the arena ready to play and a minor league franchise willing to compromise on the nine dates they already have booked. The arena is 100 percent debt free. That and the economy is structured for lower ticket prices, which I hear will not be a problem.

Should they choose Oklahoma City, I would like to see the team called the Oklahoma Centennial. Not Centennials, Centennial, as the first official year would be 2007, the year of our centennial.

Oklahoma City is the current frontrunner

Source?

Should they choose Oklahoma City, I would like to see the team called the Oklahoma Centennial. Not Centennials, Centennial, as the first official year would be 2007, the year of our centennial.

The first scheduled home game for the Hornets is October 20 of this year. Not 2007. I do like the name though, perhaps for the Blazers?

At current time this is just a temporary relocation, could be long term depending on the situation in New Orleans, but changing the name of the franchise would be very inappropriate, IMO.

And look for an announcement soon, as the team would like to hold training camp in their 'home' city as opposed to moving around.

For those who have ever said OKC isn't a pro market and could never have a pro franchise, tie on your bib, crow is about to be served. :kicking:

The first scheduled home game for the Hornets is October 20 of this year. Not 2007. I do like the name though, perhaps for the Blazers?

At current time this is just a temporary relocation, could be long term depending on the situation in New Orleans, but changing the name of the franchise would be very inappropriate, IMO.

And look for an announcement soon, as the team would like to hold training camp in their 'home' city as opposed to moving around.

For those who have ever said OKC isn't a pro market and could never have a pro franchise, tie on your bib, crow is about to be served. :kicking:

I am aware of the first game. Should the team move permanantly, it would not be officially ours until the 2007 season.

Yes. I agree with you on your bib comment, and I personally look forward to spending several days telling every nay sayer a personal "I told you so." Funny. I seem to tell them that line a lot. You would think they would get the message by now.

:bow:

For those who have ever said OKC isn't a pro market and could never have a pro franchise, tie on your bib, crow is about to be served

Well, I think that would be totally ignoring the circumstances, but it'll be a great test given the opportunity.


changing the name of the franchise would be very inappropriate

I agree. I think it would be nice to keep the name out of dereference to this situation.

Well, I think that would be totally ignoring the circumstances, but it'll be a great test given the opportunity.

The circumstances of the situation are less than desirable, and by no means do I think we are trying to 'profit off of a tragedy', but to be scouted by the NBA for a potential franchise is very promising for Oklahoma City and Oklahoma as a whole.

When this is announced, I think Ron Norrick, Kirk Humphreys, and Mick Cornett need to be applauded. Without thier vision and leadership, we wouldn't even be discussing this. (Well, we might have been discussing hosting the New Orleans VooDoo AFL team in the Myriad ;))

This brings a whole new meaning to HOOP UP OKC!

This got me to thinking, it would have been nice to have some yellow, teal, and purple decorations (balloons, etc) around the Ford Center for the NBA brass to see.

I hope the technical crew at the Ford Center put up some Hornets graphics/logos on the display boards and scoreboards.

The circumstances of the situation are less than desirable, and by no means do I think we are trying to 'profit off of a tragedy', but to be scouted by the NBA for a potential franchise is very promising for Oklahoma City and Oklahoma as a whole.

Oh, I know what you are saying and it is good that OKC is being considered, even if it's just for assistance. I bet that there are many out there who didn’t even know that OKC had the capability to host an NBA team, even if on a limited basis.

I just meant that I would hate anyone to use this anomaly as a way to gloat and pump themselves up, but I don't think anyone would be that low in the first place. I think that there have been some very intelligent discussions on this thread alone, but unfortunately, sometimes factual explanations of market analysis are taken as being unhopeful or unsupportive, while perpetuators of specious data and unfounded beliefs think their enthusiasm creates fact. But for the most part, we have good discussion.

The fact here is that we're talking about a grave force majeure which in no way invalidates or validates anyone's pervious predictions. Most of our other discussions centered around marketing and solicitation capabilities within the context of expansion or (voluntary) relocation.

In the end, I hope that we can help out the Hornets franchise in any way they need us to. I agree that our past leadership should be applauded for putting us in the position of doing so. Whether or not the Hornets plan a permanent move or not, a successful run in OKC would go a long way to mitigating some of our other shortcomings in future considerations.

I'm not really sure how much this would have to do with the situation however, I believe when the Hornets were originally moving from Charlotte, the two cities it came down to were OKC and New Orleans. Granted, New Orleans had a big lead over OKC and eventually was awarded the franchise. The feeling I am getting (just from reading articles and such) is that if the franchise does decide that it would like to permanently stay in New Orleans/Louisiana then the Hornets will do their best to play in Baton Rouge. If the franchise does lean towards a move outside of Louisiana then that is possibly due to the desire to permanently move out of N.O. That would leave OKC and KC as the frontrunners due to geographic locations and Vegas/San Diego/Louisville as other possible locations.

I do imagine that the owners would prefer to stay in N.O. if that is at all possible. There may be too many unknowns associated with staying though from a business perspective.

I just meant that I would hate anyone to use this anomaly as a way to gloat and pump themselves up, but I don't think anyone would be that low in the first place.



Think again. Unfortunately, there will always be people who gleefully take advantage of misfortune and try to capitalize on a catastrophe. Hopefully, we won't be labled as such. We need to focus on offering aid and assistance first and foremost.

It is wonderful that we might be able to step up to the plate and offer a temporary home or assistance as needed. But the last thing we need is to be looked upon as a group of vultures, picking through the carnage for personal gain. Welcome with open arms to those who might need a place to call 'home' but we should strive to maintain compassion and respect for what the team and state have gone through. For God's sake, don't propose a name change prior to them even arriving.

I hope, if this all happens, we will be able to disprove some of the negativity surrounding our state.

A meeting was held today with theNBA, Mayor and business leaders. The NBA must make a decision within 7-10 days - although still in negotiations, it is looking better day by day according to the media - Channel 5.

Cornett says that the meeting went 100% positive, and he believes that OKC is the leading contender.

http://www.newsok.com/article/1611320/?template=home/main

That is a good article... if they come, I hope all of us can support the team, buy tickets and welcome them here.

We may have made the basket, now we need to make the slam-dunk. Keeping OUR Hornets here forever.

We may have made the basket, now we need to make the slam-dunk. Keeping OUR Hornets here forever.

If anything should change their minds, it would be statements like the above. I thought you wanted to welcome teams here, not chase them away.

They are not OUR hornets.... please don't go there. It is only furthering our image of scavenging vultures circling the kill. Please be respectful of the calamity that has occurred.

I am hoping fervently that the powers that be are not reading this board.

Mayor: OKC is NBA's best option



By Steve Lackmeyer and John Rohde
The Oklahoman

Oklahoma City is the top contender to host the displaced New Orleans Hornets should they choose to leave Louisiana, Mayor Mick Cornett said Friday.

Cornett, City Manager Jim Couch, and officials with SMG, which operates Ford Center, met Friday with NBA representatives as talks progress toward the Hornets calling the 18,000-seat arena home.

Cornett said he had hoped the team’s future would be decided next week - but after meeting with the delegation, he now believes it will more likely take place by Sept. 23.

The team has been displaced by Hurricane Katrina. It played its home games in the New Orleans Arena, which sits next to the Superdome.

Besides touring Bricktown and Ford Center, the NBA delegation also discussed possible lease terms, housing and employment issues during the daylong meeting.

“Everybody still wants the games played in Louisiana,” Cornett said. “That’s the NBA’s choice, that’s my choice. But under the assumption the games can’t be played in Louisiana, the question is ‘then what?’¥”

Cornett believes the “then what” is likely Oklahoma City, following what he deemed a “100 percent” positive critique of the city’s accommodations by the visiting NBA officials.

The five-member delegation, led by league Senior Vice President Harvey Benjamin and Chief Legal Counsel Joe Litvin, began the day at an 8 a.m. breakfast with Cornett and ended their visit about 4 p.m.

“They’re serious,” Cornett said. “They love the arena and said it will fit nicely in the list of NBA arenas.”

Cornett said the delegation’s inspection of Ford Center ranked it in the “middle third” of all NBA arenas.

“I’m biased,” Cornett said. “But it appears from this visit that if they can’t play in Louisiana, their best option is Oklahoma City.”

Cornett hinted the chances of the team staying in Louisiana are dropping, though the NBA delegation is set to visit the 13,500-seat Century Tel Center in the Shreveport/Bossier City area next week.

“There is a concern over the uncomfortable instability of the area,” Cornett said. “There are big issues out there, and there are big businesses in the Gulf states that are relocating. It’s just tough to assume you can do business as normal in Louisiana right now.”

As part of Friday’s discussions, the Blazers ice hockey team agreed to move 22 games across the street to the Cox Convention Center arena on overlapping game days.

Cornett said the league officials also discussed local attendance at NBA exhibition games held the past three years. The games, he said, got a positive review.

Cornett would not provide details of Friday’s lease negotiations, but said the discussions included questions of the city “sharing the risk” of the team locating in a city with no history of major league sports teams.

If the team moves to Oklahoma City, Cornett said they would relocate 100 employees from Louisiana and also hire 50 people locally to do a “rapid ramp-up” of telemarketing and promotions of ticket sales.

Combined with the players, the team would bring an approximate $50 million payroll to the state - an incentive, Cornett said, for the state to share in providing support for the team’s expenses.

“No one is taking more of a risk in Oklahoma City than the NBA would be,” Cornett said. “We’re an unproven market.”

Oklahoma City isn’t the only city that has offered the team a new home in the wake of Hurricane Katrina devastating New Orleans. Other cities offering their arenas include Nashville, San Diego, Kansas City, Louisville and Las Vegas.

Those cities can’t offer what Oklahoma City can, Cornett said, which is a modern NBA-ready arena and an open schedule for all home games.

Good luck to Oklahoma City.

I do truly hope you get the chance to show America how well you shine!

This is an email I received from the commisioner of the ABA. It sounds exciting in more ways than one. Take note, nay sayers.

Mr. Anderson. Thanks for the email. I understand it is possible that the NBA is looking at Oklahoma City. A good choice. I understand also that the NFL is also looking. It will probably not affect the ABA, but only time will tell. We're still working on the details. Regardless of whether the NFL or NBA is there - there's nothing like the affordability and excitement of ABA basketball. If your family has $200 to spend for a game, ok. Most families don't. Appreciate the interest.

Joe Newman
ABA CEO

NFL? Interesting... I wonder if and when Mayor Cornett will say something about that. When I-40 gets relocated we'll have plenty of space for a stadium right downtown. Cool.

I don't think we need ABA too at the same time, but if the Hornets decide not to locate here, it would be an option.

If we do get the Hornets permanently, I don't think the name should change. They have been the Hornets in two different cities, and the hornet is a pretty general mascot. We have just as many hornets here as Charlotte or New Orleans. I've been stung enough times to know that. Besides, keeping the name keeps a little bit of a legacy with the team, whereas if we change the name, you're going to have people going "Who are the Oklahoma City Centennial?" or whatever it is. People will know the Hornets are a NBA team.

Joe brings a good point in his email. Although his quote of 200.00 is quite high, he is saying if you can not afford NBA you still have professional basketball. Plus, the ABA could be the development team for our NBA team... In the same city. So, you will have a choice. I would go to both.

Plus. If we ha an expansion franchise, the country would STILL be asking "who are the (insert name)?" Right? So, I feel why not honor Oklahoma's one hundreth birthday by calling the team the Centennial. Personally, I do not like the sound of the Oklahoma Hornets or the Oklahoma City Hornets. I am not a fan of the name New Orleans Hornets either. New city, new name. I really wanted the Jazz to change their name when they moved to Salt Lake City but I can not say to what. Memphis could have used the name the Blues, and New Orleans could have called the team the Louisana Cajuns.

But Centennial, in the long run, will not make any sense. We are already celebrating the Centennial with many, many projects. Yes if we got an expansion team, it would be new name, but if we get this relocation, we should take advantage of having a name that is already known.

And I still just don't think it's a good idea, at least for a while, to try to have and ABA team and and NBA team.

Hornets' interim home could be decided in a weekBy Andy Katz
ESPN.com


SPRINGFIELD, Mass. -- The New Orleans Hornets' home for the 2005-06 season should be announced within a week, according to NBA commissioner David Stern.

Stern, in attendance at Friday night's Hall of Fame Induction Ceremonies, told ESPN.com the league is close to making an announcement with the displaced franchise after Hurricane Katrina made playing in the city unfeasible for the foreseeable future.

"We're getting to a place where we have to make a decision relatively soon," Stern said. "I would hope by the end of next week we'll have something to say."

Earlier Friday, The Associated Press reported that five NBA officials toured Oklahoma City's Ford Center after the city offered to house the Hornets for the season.

The AP reported that mayor Mick Cornett said the league discussed a lease if they decided on playing 41 games in the 19,675-seat facility.

"The NBA is impressed with what we have to offer," Cornett told the AP.

Louisville, Nashville and Kansas City have reportedly shown they would be interested in letting the Hornets use their facilities, too.

The Hornets' front office relocated to Houston and already announced that it would hold its training camp at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo.

Deputy commissioner Russ Granik, who was also in attendance at the Hall of Fame said the Hornets would prefer to play in Louisiana at LSU in Baton Rouge. Granik said there were three to four options available but added that Las Vegas wasn't one of them for this season.

"We'll see what's available," Granik said. "We hope to have it done within a week. We'd like them to stay in one place if it were possible."

The New Orleans Saints are expected to play three games at LSU and four at the Alamodome in San Antonio. One of their home games was moved to New Jersey on the New York Giants home field at the Meadowlands. Tulane football relocated to Louisiana Tech while its men's basketball team will be at Texas A&M and its women's basketball team at Texas Tech. The University of New Orleans men's and women's basketball teams relocated to the University of Texas at Tyler.

Stern and Granik both said the Hornets were looking for a "temporary or interim home," and not a permanent move.

But it's still premature to make any decisions beyond this season.

"We haven't been in to inspect [the arena]," Stern said. "We don't know when people will be allowed back into the city. We're taking our lead from people who are dealing with much more important things than us."

Granik added that "right now the focus is on the team remaining the New Orleans Hornets."

Meanwhile, Cornett said Friday that the sale of tickets for Oklahoma and Oklahoma State in Oklahoma City suggest a strong market for a pro team.

"That old image that we had of Oklahoma City as being a market that was only able to support minor-league events is outdated," Cornett told the AP.

.

If anything should change their minds, it would be statements like the above. I thought you wanted to welcome teams here, not chase them away.

They are not OUR hornets.... please don't go there. It is only furthering our image of scavenging vultures circling the kill. Please be respectful of the calamity that has occurred.

I am hoping fervently that the powers that be are not reading this board.
Personally, I agree 1000% with what Karrie said.

I'd be sorely dismayed, and enormously personally embarrassed, if OKC would become a vulture that circles around the prey of the the enornous horrible Gulf Coast tragedy, including the grand city of New Orleans. My enourmous pride in what Okahoma City has done by its own bootstrings would turn to becoming an uttterly desloate abyss. No pride ... nothing positive ... nothing I'd want to associate with. That sort of thing, if Okc seized upon New Orleans' misfortune to try to find its "sports" place in the sun, would be unspeakably horrible. If I had any pride remaining in Oklahoma City, that single bleak fact would somehow have to be reconciled or ignored. I'd not be inclined to ignore it, and reconcilliation would likely be difficult, aside from the greed/avarice that is probably inherent in the human species.

New Orleans will have its legacy, and hopefully it will beocme revitalized again. But, to the point for Oklahoma Citians, what kind of a legacy would you want Okc to have, of that as a good Samaritan or a of that as opportunistic vulture? If the latter would come to pass, I cannot begin to say how shamed I would be by association to identify with the City of Oklahoma City. And, to the extent that any of you who have posted here have opinions to the contrary, I'd simply add my opinion, "Shame, shame. Next time, maybe the vultures will circle your home."

It's fine to help and to have a welcome guest during the interlude between now and until that area gets itself going again ... but "OUR Hornets", that's an incredibly uncivilized and enormously rude and insensitive thing to say.

It would be good to be temporary hosts, to be sure, but to sieze on the Gulf Coast's incredible misfortune, please, god (and I'm not a religious person, else I'd capitalized your name), please tell me that none who have spoken in this thread would want that to be so.

Opportunism certainly has its place, everything else being equal. Everything is not equal.

Okc is not ravaged by the worst hurricane to strike America. New Orleans is exactly the opposite.

I'd not be happy to think that history would find that Oklahoma City "got its start" in the sports bigtime game by being a vulture. I'd be proud if history said, "Oklahoma City unselfishly helped during the 2005-2007 New Orleans restortation and gratiously sent its welcomed temporary visitors back to New Orleans, where they belonged after time passed, and the two cities thereafter enjoyed a warm feeling between themselves because of that for years to come."

I agree completely, Karried and Doug.

I've tried not to rain on these sports hopes, but I admit, I don't like the way we're getting our chance. It does seem opportunistic, no matter how we smooth things over by saying that staying in Louisiana would be everybody's first choice. I can understand wanting to get the word out that OKC is a major league city, but let's do it with some class.

I agree with what you all are saying, but you have to remember one thing... Life goes on!

Often times we have tragedy. Something goes wrong or some catastrophe prohibits "normalcy" as we know it. But does that mean we sit back defeated?

OKC has lost out time and time again, to tornadoes, to Indianapolis, to St. Paul, to Terry McVey (or whatever his name was). On and On.

But life goes on. New Orleans is a great city that unfortunately had a major catastrophe. This will most likely result in much of the city being relocated, businesses and residents. It may prove too difficult or expensive to rebuild there.

So, do we sit here and let our brand new NBA ready arena (the only available one in the nation, mind you) go to waste? or do we offer it as a temporary home in the homes that we could secure permanent residency?

I say the latter. Things happen. But life moves on. My heart goes out to the victims of the Katrina tragedy - as you all, but if we dont get the "spoils" someone else will. And they wont think twice about the "ethics" of it. Dont believe me? Ask Kansas City.

They had their NBA team taken away from them. You dont think they are not jumping at the chance to get the Hornets???? They would be a big 3 major league city again if the NBA returned (NBA, NFL, MLB)! But KC can not compete with OKC on this one.

Should we put our tail in the sand on the grounds of Ethics and say, HEY we dont want the team because of what happened to New Orleans??? Huh???

What about the stuff that was taken from OKC? United Airlines? St Paul getting a second chance to bid for NHL and NOT OKC - hence landing them a team???? After the OKC bombing, many regional hqs that OKC had for the federal govt were moved away from here - not to return??????? Arent you guys tired of losing, isnt it enough being too conservative????

Come on people, we all feel the tragedy of what happened but life moves on. During your May 1999 tornado event, it was on the news for a week; then Poof. Life Moved On.

Ditto that for the OKC Bombing, on the news for Months. Then, Life Moved On.

MSY will be devistated by Katrina for years to come - does that mean we "hold" everything for them in the hopes they return to their glory?

Honestly, most of us on this forum aren't in the know anyway about these issues. It will come down to a business decision. As a business decision, it makes perfect sense to move the team to OKC in the interim. As a business decision, it might make perfect sense to move the team to OKC permanently!

Ethics or not, life moves on. And there is nothing unethical about that!

Joe brings a good point in his email. Although his quote of 200.00 is quite high, he is saying if you can not afford NBA you still have professional basketball. Plus, the ABA could be the development team for our NBA team... In the same city. So, you will have a choice. I would go to both.

Actually, the NBA has their own development league. It is called the NBDL. Tulsa has an NBDL team. Each team is associated with a team in the NBA.

HOT ROD, for me (and I believe for a few others), what's hard to stomach is how some on this forum are so desperate to have professional team that they are "licking their chops" at the opportunity to gain something even if it means taking advantage of another's misfortune. It's the greedy attitude that suspends compassion for a city facing great loss by insisting they couldn't possibly support the team in the near future so we "deserve" to become the permanent home. It's akin to kicking a man while he's still down.

And, frankly, as others have said. It lacks class. We'll take something we're desperate for any way we can get it. It's that same attitude that leads to looting, something deplored elsewhere in this forum. If we can't earn it on our own, let's profit from another's misfortune.

I was in Indianapolis when the Colts moved from Baltimore to Indy in literally a middle-of-the-night move. Indianapolis gained, but at a price. For several years after the fact, others viewed Indianapolis with disdain as if they stole the Colts from Baltimore. It took awhile for that stigma to wear off.

We have enough stigmas in OKC — too conservative, behind the trends, not a major league city. We don't need to add another — opportunistic.

Being opportunistic is a great attribute for a growing city to have, but like everything else the motive has to be considered. The decision to temporarily move the New Orleans franchise was made by the NBA and the Hornets, not OKC. Even then, their will to do so was dictated by forces beyond their control. George Shin, the Hornets owner, has been saying for some time that a relocation of the team was possible and would be a desirable move for the betterment of his business interests. However, this past week, he has been saying that he loves New Orleans and with every fiber of his being wants to remain in that locale. I applaud him for his latter comments because they show that he identifies with the pain and suffering that the gulf area is enduring. At least in words, he is empathic to the important issues at hand. The NBA says that their hearts and prayers go out to the families of those in despair and have aided them in various ways via donations and such. In a totally seperate vein, they also say that unfortunately, the Hornets will have to be temporarily moved because of the tragedy. Neither is being fake, they are simply doing their job while still being respectful to the losses and misfortunes of others. They are not being shady or hypocritical.

It is unfair and unreasonable to label an entire city as being parasitic because of the agendas that exist within a minute micro-community that exists only in word. I too, am annoyed by some peoples lack of feeling and sympathy, but no one should be made to feel ashamed to be excited about a possible good thing. The news reports that I have seen on tv have all called the possible move temporary and haven't been talking about renaming New Orleans' team. There have also been numerous stories about many, many people from the OKC area helping the cause in the gulf states. Obviously, there are a few on this forum that primarily care about being "right", even though they might be totally wrong. They might have threatened to call you out and ridicule those that disagreed with them. There are some who will call OKC vulturous if we host the team just as a means to keep us from getting too happy, when in all actuality, they could have made a good host if their arena was completed.


Just because there are people talking about other people eating crow and other nonsense doesn't mean that you should stoop to that level. Don't take a pseudo high ground that in truth is just as agenda filled and convoluted as the propaganda that they are spraying. When you're driving and a funeral procession passes, you pause out of respect. You don't cry. That does not mean that you are callous, it means you're human. I had family in New Orleans who evacuated and am thankful that they are out. I'm touched by what I see in the media and am doing all that I can to help. I also gave all that I could to the boys and girls club of greater New Orleans before this tragedy struck. My donations even then, were not an existential tax write-off or a means to feel good about myself. They were needed.
No evacuee that I've spoken to has given a damn about the Hornets, or the Saints. They don't care about the Superdome or the French Quarter for that matter. Sports isn't important to them right now, but they will be again as they heal. There are husbands who are separated from their wives. There are parents who sent their children away to safety and stayed behind in hopes of ensuring their kids survival. Rest assured, the children cried, but when they got the water they drank it and when they got food, they swallowed. They didn't fast in honor of the fact that their parents were still without. I'm also sure that when the parents told their kids that everything was going to be ok, they didn't know whether or not they were telling the truth. Nevertheless, they smiled and said it anyway.


Right is relative. Relief is relative. The motive is what counts. If I'm excited about the possibility of being able to see pro basketball in my own backyard for a year, that doesn't make me unfeeling. I am quite the opposite. Awesomely extraordinary circumstances taking place that force the hands on many do not validate any viewpoint one way or the other. Some people talking about I told you so and other crap just need to shut up and learn to particitpate in the forum and stop living in it. Still, a entire region or city cannot be judged based on the renegade opinions and heart of a few within a micro-community. Don't you higher ground people become so obsessed with being right that you ignore the truth too. Also, people from Tulsa who have been touting that Tulsa would get a pro team first and blah blah, don't prostitute the false idea that everyone in OKC who would possibly attend a game is a vulture just to make yourself feel better being kinda wrong. The NBA brass said that they loved the Ford Center and that it will fit nicely into their list of arenas. They also said it would rank in the middle 1/3 of all current arenas. So it doesn't matter that you think it's ugly and call it a meatloaf and blah blah. Still, you might think it's ugly and that's your opinion, but it doesn't matter does it?
IF OKC hosts the New Orleans Hornets for a year, it will be just another result of Hurricane Katrina. Just like people not being able to evacuate because they are poor doesn't make them lazy, Oklahoma opening it's doors doesn't make us a thief. Stereotyping is never good. Nor is it ever correct. It always has an agenda. None of the ones at work here are important or hidden. OKCtalk isn't Oklahoma City. It's an online discussion forum. Nothing more. Nothing less.

"OKCtalk isn't Oklahoma City. It's an online discussion forum. Nothing more. Nothing less."

Sorry, however, you are totally incorrect. This forum is more than a discussion form. We are a voice for the city, and a successful one.

My own employer takes this forum so seriously, they have issued a gag order prohibiting me from updating things about them. Most of what I have said was public record or easily obtainable by line of eyesight.

There have been ideas expressed on this forum and the ones previous to it that have gained attention. Those ideas may even include MAPS for Kids, as a plan was proposed on a "forum" several years before the plan was even mentioned at city council or on media outlets.

There have been ideas expressed that have been praised as great ideas which will be considered in the future.

Several people from this and other forums have sought or have been approached to seek public office, partly as a result of this forum.

Several public officials, including our own Mayor monitor this forum for ideas and feedback, and take it quite seriously.

At least one person on this forum is being considered for political appointment or other areas directly as a result of this forum.

For a lot of us, we are a group of friends. We socailize, we help each other, we support each other when we need it.

We are comprised of many areas including a singles support group, giving advise, and even willing to plan blind dates through OKC Talk personals when that develops.

You may look at this as "just a forum" however, most of us do not. It is our hobby, it is our mission, it is our community service. We are a voice of the people. The largest message board dedicated to our city.

If a major employer will take this so seriously, they order their staff not to write about them because it is read by so many people, or if civic leaders will see this as a voice, then it is more than "just a forum."

Now the topic. Yes. I feel for the people of Louisiana and Mississippi. However, I would bet if the tables were turned and WE had the major league franchise, and another city offered to host it due to a major event, that city would use it as an oportunity to sell themeselves and prove myths wrong... And either be the permanant home if that team decided to move permanantly or to jockey for position in the next expansion or relocation. Yes. It is a great thing to offer, however, it is also covering your bases. It is a business move as well as a compassionate gesture. It is known as carpe diem. I say again, I will take a major league franchise or any business any way I can get it. Most cities would do that to us, so, even if for a season, enjoy the gift.

Of course. I said that it was nothing more and nothing less than an online discussion platform. This is exactly what it is. I completely understand the value of this forum and have made that known many times before. It is definitely a platform for many other things and a meeting ground and social activity for many people, but it's a voice, not the voice. Because it is a great gateway to our city for some, it's important it give a true representation of the feeling this cities residents. We are not unfeeling and that why Karried hoped that your comments didn't make it seem that way to anyone who is viewing. Same for Doug, same for Scribe. The fact that I do understand the value of this forum underscores why I wish that no one is stereotyped or painted in a light that is unfair to them. Even when you speak you represent me and everyone else in OKC. I do not feel the need to be totally right, but I am also not totally incorrect. There is no need to try and make it seem like I am.

Good perspective, Decious. Thanks for sharing.

[QUOTE=mranderson]"OKCtalk isn't Oklahoma City. It's an online discussion forum. Nothing more. Nothing less."

Sorry, however, you are totally incorrect. This forum is more than a discussion form. We are a voice for the city, and a successful one.

My own employer takes this forum so seriously, they have issued a gag order prohibiting me from updating things about them. Most of what I have said was public record or easily obtainable by line of eyesight.


If a major employer will take this so seriously, they order their staff not to write about them because it is read by so many people, or if civic leaders will see this as a voice, then it is more than "just a forum."
QUOTE]

Oh come on, don’t be so full of yourself. In no public company is it ok to post any information about internal operations of that company on any message board, be it this one, yahoo business or whatever. It’s very possibly insider information that could be shared and as such can be a violation of securities law. Public companies take this very seriously. You are not special nor is this board in this regard, you are very lucky that if your employer has discovered that you have been sharing information about the company on this board that you are still employed.

[QUOTE=mranderson]"OKCtalk isn't Oklahoma City. It's an online discussion forum. Nothing more. Nothing less."

Sorry, however, you are totally incorrect. This forum is more than a discussion form. We are a voice for the city, and a successful one.

My own employer takes this forum so seriously, they have issued a gag order prohibiting me from updating things about them. Most of what I have said was public record or easily obtainable by line of eyesight.


If a major employer will take this so seriously, they order their staff not to write about them because it is read by so many people, or if civic leaders will see this as a voice, then it is more than "just a forum."
QUOTE]

Oh come on, don’t be so full of yourself. In no public company is it ok to post any information about internal operations of that company on any message board, be it this one, yahoo business or whatever. It’s very possibly insider information that could be shared and as such can be a violation of securities law. Public companies take this very seriously. You are not special nor is this board in this regard, you are very lucky that if your employer has discovered that you have been sharing information about the company on this board that you are still employed.

I said nearly everything I wrote was either public knowlege or obtainable by eyesight.That made it public domain. The one thing that was not public knowlege was a simple message that had no impact what so ever. It was minor. Many companies will respect the fact their staff is proud of things that are coming and willl allow them to spread the word. I never said a word about "internal operations." Plus. I was raised by a stock broker who owned a very large brokerage firm, so I am quite aware of insider trading laws and other securities issues. In fact, not only did my dad found his company, he also founded what is now known as the Oklahoma department of Securities. In addition, I never said I was special or the board being special in any regard except the importance the city officials find it.

Now. I suggest we get back on topic, please.

The Hornets are not going to back to New Orleans. Hornets management is just paying lip service to New Orleans right now. New Orleans was dead last in attendance (14,000 per game.....and that's paid attendance. Actual attendance was more like 9500 per game.) They were looking to get out of there long before this hurricane hit. My guess is that they were waiting for Kansas City to finish their new arena before pulling up and moving. Now that circumstances have changed, Kansas City's new arena isn't ready yet, and no one wants to play in Kemper Arena.

I don't like the thought of looking like a bunch of vultures either. However, if given the opportunity we need to embrace this team as if it were our own. No matter how much people talk about this being a temporary move and the plans are to go back to New Orleans, I honestly believe that everyone involved will be examining OKC (or Louisville, Kansas City, Vancouver, etc) to see if it could work on a permanent basis.

There are good reasons why the Hornets, if they move, are not going to move to Kansas City.

The first reason is that Kansas City is already over served for a city it’s size with pro-sports teams. Second, and this is similar to why OKC will never get the NFL, KU is only 20 miles west of the metro and any NBA team will always compete and come in second to Kansas basketball. The same as any NFL team would always come in second to OU football.

But, it would be horrible PR for the NBA to let the Hornets move, even if the ownership wanted to. They will not move in the near term, and it’s really in bad taste to wish otherwise.

Actually, the NBA has their own development league. It is called the NBDL. Tulsa has an NBDL team. Each team is associated with a team in the NBA.

I am quite aware of that league. However, the ABA has made it clear that they intend to be a development league.

Also, people from Tulsa who have been touting that Tulsa would get a pro team first and blah blah, don't prostitute the false idea that everyone in OKC who would possibly attend a game is a vulture just to make yourself feel better being kinda wrong.

Decious, I have to ask. What is your obsession with Tulsa? Why do you always want to show us up? I come here alot of times and congratulate OKC on upcoming things, All you do is try to bash Tulsa, and make yourself feel better. It's saddening that you have little man complex. Another saddening thing is your sentence structure. :]

Look, i'm happy for you guys. I seriously never thought Oklahoma would ever have a pro team. It's saddening that the only way we can get them is from anothers tragedy.

I still don't see them staying. College sports are too big in Oklahoma.

I honestly believe that everyone involved will be examining OKC (or Louisville, Kansas City, Vancouver, etc) to see if it could work on a permanent basis.

It will definitely be a test market, not just for the Hornet's owners, but for the NBA. If it is successful, whether the Hornets stay in their chosen temporary market or not, it will definitely move that market to the top of the list for the next expansion or relocation opportunity.

If OKC is chosen to help the Hornets out for the time being, no one should be too concerned with their long term plans or over zealous about the possibility. One, because, until the future of New Orleans becomes clear, it is disrespectful and, two, because if it is successful the NBA will find its way into the market on a permanent basis one way or another.

Decious, I have to ask. What is your obsession with Tulsa? Why do you always want to show us up? I come here alot of times and congratulate OKC on upcoming things, All you do is try to bash Tulsa, and make yourself feel better. It's saddening that you have little man complex. Another saddening thing is your sentence structure. :]

Look, i'm happy for you guys. I seriously never thought Oklahoma would ever have a pro team. It's saddening that the only way we can get them is from anothers tragedy.

I still don't see them staying. College sports are too big in Oklahoma.

Dallas. Big on, actually, High School sports. Los Angeles, big on College sports. Many other major league markets are big on College sports and their major league franchises flourish. Just because a city is big on College sports does not mean they can not support major league.

Your comment about never. I have been saying for years, do not say "never." Never has the habit of creeping on you. The truth is, we CAN support these teams. I look forward to the day I can give all of your fellow nay sayers a big, fat "I told you so."

Tulsa getting major leagues before Oklahoma City? :LolLolLol :LolLolLol :LolLolLol

Oh come on, don’t be so full of yourself. In no public company is it ok to post any information about internal operations of that company on any message board, be it this one, yahoo business or whatever. It’s very possibly insider information that could be shared and as such can be a violation of securities law. Public companies take this very seriously. You are not special nor is this board in this regard, you are very lucky that if your employer has discovered that you have been sharing information about the company on this board that you are still employed.

Very good point, and I'm glad you make it. Some people think of themselves as elite just because they are working for a certain company. Most companies, public or not, are going to tell their employees to shut their trap if they are yakking online about them. When I worked for AOL many many moons ago, talking to the press was addressed with every employee with in the first week of being there.



Now the topic. Yes. I feel for the people of Louisiana and Mississippi. However, I would bet if the tables were turned and WE had the major league franchise, and another city offered to host it due to a major event, that city would use it as an oportunity to sell themeselves and prove myths wrong... And either be the permanant home if that team decided to move permanantly or to jockey for position in the next expansion or relocation. Yes. It is a great thing to offer, however, it is also covering your bases. It is a business move as well as a compassionate gesture. It is known as carpe diem. I say again, I will take a major league franchise or any business any way I can get it. Most cities would do that to us, so, even if for a season, enjoy the gift.

Just because another city MAY do it, we should? You show the perfect example of what is wrong in corporate America and the old style business way of thinking. Like has been said...they are now OUR Hornets. We are offering them a home. If they like the way it works out here, then so be it. However, it is too soon to claim them as our own. So relax and let things progress.

All you do is try to bash Tulsa, and make yourself feel better. It's saddening that you have little man complex.

It's saddening that the only way we can get them is from anothers tragedy.

First, how is Oklahoma City in any way the "little man"? Secondly, I've said it before and I will say it again: We would not be the front-runner to temporarily host the New Orleans Hornets if the NBA did not have confidence in OKC as a viable market for major league basketball, therefore, you can't say it's only because of the tragedy.