I think the term was probably a poor choice (i will add it to my personal aresenal though). "Smugness" might be a better fit.

Ive been there, done that when it comes to urban living, ect but i got married, priorities shifted (have a child on the way), and i made the move out to the burbs in preparation for that. Funny thing is is that I am probably going out more for entertainment in the core than when i lived in Edgemere.

It just get tiring when others, esp people i dont know on a message board, criticize me and other for wanting other things than them. You live in the core and walk everywhere and don't have a car. Awesome. Good for you. Why do you care that i like my car and my pool and more house for my $$$? You shouldn't.

I think what happens in most cases is everyone gets so defensive, that when they talk about their "side" they sound like they are talking down to the others. I don't know Sid personally, but his last post sure tries to make it sound like he and his family are "better than everyone" because of how they live. Now do I think he's that arrogant? Doubt it, but when being backed down by some pretty odd statements from another poster, he decided to take an offensive stance (can't blame him).

Jesus H Christ, you guys are so *****ng fragile. None of my posts have a goddamn thing to do with wealth, monetary value, or anyone being weak. I never said anyone is a "p*ssy" for anything. You guys manipulate sh*t in your head, and take off and run with it. You can disagree with me all you want, but its pathetic to see some of you pick and choose minor pieces of the discussion, and try to fabricate it into something it isn't. Its disgusting to see.

You literally said that people who WANT to live without a car are contributing to American becoming weaker. That is what YOU said. No one is twisting anything.

Jesus H Christ, you guys are so *****ng fragile. None of my posts have a goddamn thing to do with wealth, monetary value, or anyone being weak. I never said anyone is a "p*ssy" for anything. You guys manipulate sh*t in your head, and take off and run with it. You can disagree with me all you want, but its pathetic to see some of you pick and choose minor pieces of the discussion, and try to fabricate it into something it isn't. Its disgusting to see here.

Then explain what the hell you meant then. They're your words, and if you can't put them down in manner that anyone but yourself can understand and get pissed when everyone is questioning, I think the fragile person is staring you in the face when you look in the mirror.

(edit - not talking about the "pussification" comment, don't care either way on that. i'm talking about your post about the "American Dream" only being defined one way)

You literally said that people who WANT to live without a car are contributing to American becoming weaker. That is what YOU said.

Show me where I posted that, word for word...and I will sign off for good.

I'm making the case that my family and I are not becoming [insert the offending word]. I responded with a little emotion because it sure felt like an attack when people say that this 'lifestyle' is somehow a threat to the American Dream or some kind of negative change. I was snarky because I found his positions as ironic and worthy of poking.

That's what I meant, was just using it an example of how when any of us are attacked, or under the presumption they're being attacked, the response will not always be roses and candy.

That's what I meant, was just using it an example of how when any of us are attacked, or under the presumption they're being attacked, the response will not always be roses and candy.

Roses and candy is just a weak pair of words. I suggest you use a more manly set of words, such as ashtray or towtruck.

Show me where I posted that, word for word...and I will sign off for good.

another pet peeve....over/incorrect use of the word "literally"...busted Andrew ;)

Roses and candy is just a weak pair of words. I suggest you use a more manly set of words, such as ashtray or towtruck.

my bad, cannonballs and steamrollers

Show me where I posted that, word for word...and I will sign off for good.

Why can't you just back up what you said? Sure, you didn't say that verbatim. It's for sure what you implied.

It's for sure what you implied.

That's your second lie, in as many posts. It's interesting, that you would call somebody out on a message board, because the use of a "word" offends someone, but you don't have a problem lying.

To defend some, most car folk will admit to the "money pit" term. Very few do it for any ROI

I didn't mean to attack car people at all. I get it. Some cars are an experience and some people want to own that. I have my obsessions that I spend too much money on too. I just meant that a lot times when people give up their cars, they suddenly realize how much money it was costing them to own a car. In Oklahoma, you could do a lot with the money it takes to fill up an SUV every week.

That's your second lie, in as many posts. It's interesting, that you would call somebody out on a message board, because the use of a "word" offends someone, but you don't have a problem lying.

If I'm wrong, then just clarify what you meant. Easy as that.

What happened to the days, when people wanted to live the "American Dream" family of 4, in a nice house, with a white picket fence, 2 Cadillacs in the driveway, with a dog in the front yard going woof woof. Somehow in this new and crazy time we live in......its seems to be somewhat frowned upon. What happened to people wanting to get ahead, and always craving more? A successful society is created by competition amongst one another. I never thought I would see a time in my life where people almost want to brag about living a simpler life, or having less, or doing without. I'm having a hard time grasping that concept. And it is dangerous to our society, by indirectly creating complacency.

Your words...your quote. Either stand by what you said or clarify to express what you actually meant.

I'm honestly trying to give you an "out" here.

Your words...your quote. Either stand by what you said or clarify to express what you actually meant.

I'm honestly trying to give you an "out" here.

I am thinking of the best way to articulate, my thoughts in a way that will not, and cannot be taken out of context. So, it might take me a while. I am leaving my office now....and it will take me a while..because I'm going to walk home...in 30 degree weather. So, hopefully, when I get home on about 4 hours...I will have a good response. but, I will do my best to give a response, that will be at a level of intellect that cannot be mistaken for anything other than what it really is.

I didn't mean to attack car people at all. I get it. Some cars are an experience and some people want to own that. I have my obsessions that I spend too much money on too. I just meant that a lot times when people give up their cars, they suddenly realize how much money it was costing them to own a car. In Oklahoma, you could do a lot with the money it takes to fill up an SUV every week.

oh i know you weren't, just saying the type of cars i thought we were talking about (collectors, restorations, etc) are 99.9% of the time just hobbies

I am thinking of the best way to articulate, my thoughts in a way that will not, and cannot be taken out of context. So, it might take me a while. I am leaving my office now....and it will take me a while..because I'm going to walk home...in 30 degree weather. So, hopefully, when I get home on about 4 hours...I will have a good response. but, I will do my best to give a response, that will be at a level of intellect that cannot be mistaken for anything other than what it really is.

If you lived and worked in an urban neighborhood, you would walk home, stop at the coffee shop, run into an old friend, sit down for a quick cup of coffee, stop for a gallon of milk on the way home, and accomplish all of that in 20 minutes. Sorry you will be walking 4 hours.

Is it Vortexing down there too? It got cold here in Seattle. Sure makes me walk faster! :)

"cold" :)

Has anyone looked up the word and the origin for it. Here is link Urban Dictionary: pussification (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pussification) I am middle of road here as it takes a lot for a word to offend me but it isn't a word I would use or allow my children to use.

Couple other points as if anyone really cares.

I have met Sid once and chatted with him a couple of times. I have always been very impressed with the lack of material items they desire or choose to give up. Sid may not be rich in material items but I have a feeling he is rich in many other ways. I think I could learn a lesson from him in that department.

There are some on this board that seem to have the attitude that their style of living is the only way to live. There are 31 flavors at Baskin Robins for a reason. AND....unfortunately, some of the goals of the other areas make take away or infringe on what you want but there are probably things that you want that takes away or infringes on what they want. Diversity is good for our city.

I use a service called Car2Go in Columbus, which is a lot like Zipcar, except a lot more practical and flexible. You can start and end a trip in any on-street parking space, and there's a fleet of 300 cars so there's always one within a few blocks of anywhere in the urban core.

They're also in Seattle, Calgary, and Denver with similar-sized fleets. It drives me nuts that Cleveland is gung-ho for Zipcar, which is great, but not as good as Car2Go and I think two cities so interlinked should be on the same system. Apparently St. Paul has Car2Go now, so I'd be curious why not Minneapolis...

Home | car2go Columbuscar2go Columbus (http://columbus.car2go.com/)

My car pretty much stays in my work parking garage most of the time, although that may be changing now that it's a bad winter again already..

I think Car2Go could work in OKC with a much smaller fleet and home area.

It takes all types to make a great city. If you don't have that, you end up like Portland.

This.

I'm the first to try to give you a taste of life the way I see it but ALSO the first to suggest you find you're own balance. My friends all know this. We all need to figure out what it is that we need in life to be the best of who we are and my suggestion is that you find out what that is. If it is two Cadillacs and a picket fence, then I'll come help you dig the post holes. I literally have helped dig those fences.

'Jeepokc has proven to us all that our vision is subject to tinkering but the vision invested in a slightly larger one than our own almost always surprises us for the better.

If only more people saw it like you.

Be who you are, like what you like, and don't let anybody tell you it isn't good enough.

To address the original post:

OKC is livable without a car right now. Livable being the key word.

Depending on the job one holds, it can be not only livable but live-it-upable without a car.

The better way to have framed this topic would have been: Will OKC have an urban center that has all the essentials + competition in those essentials + all standard amenities in addition to a few unique amenities that may not be possessed by other urban centers, and will OKC generally have an urban center that competes well with peer cities and above and that compliments or beats the quality of life found in other areas of OKC as a whole. It's already almost there as we speak, but if you want to know where it will be in 5 years, I offer that following:

After lurking to see updates on the Devon Tower for awhile, I started posting on this forum I believe 3 years ago yesterday. At that time time:

Deep Deuce - LEVEL was either not started or barely started, no Maywood Apartments were even announced, and aLoft was just beginning it's 15 year construction process…I'm still not convinced that it's finished:

Midtown - The Edge was either not yet revealed or may have even been in the RFP stage still. Midtown Renaissance had completed a few projects but still had several in the wings…Projects like Mayfair apartments were still a big deal (Half the time I click on that thread I have forgotten what the project is).

CBD/Arts District/Film Row - Devon Tower had just been completed, yes, but everything else was relatively stagnant, mainly because Sandridge takes forever to complete projects. The "Mystery Tower" thread had not even been conceived at this point...

The Plaza - Saint's and a few retail options. No Mule, Empire, Chiltepe's, O&O, Pie Junkie, and several of the retail tenants have since rolled over.

Uptown 23rd - Big Truck Tacos and maybe Mutt's, The Rise was still Hotel Motel liquidation and didn't sell until over a year later. Tucker's wasn't a thing, Pizza 23/Orange Leaf wasn't a thing, The Prohibition Room WAS a thing. I don't even think the Uptown branding existed at that point.

That was all just 3 years ago.

We have 5 years to go until 2020.

I think that pretty well answers the question at hand.

^^^ Great post, Teo. That was the OKC I moved back to and was beyond underwhelmed by in 2012. It's amazing to think about the changes that have occurred even since then. Pretty much everywhere I hang out now didn't exist when I moved here. In summer of 2012 I went walking around Midtown and couldn't see why people on OKCTalk considered it OKC's next vibrant, up-and-coming neighborhood. At that time, it was a couple of restaurants, some boarded up buildings, and a ton of grassy lots. No Edge, Waffle Champion, Ambassardor Hotel, and the construction site for Fassler Hall/Dust Bowl was a grassy lot. There wasn't even Packard's and the Garage. Today I really see a great urban neighborhood coming together that will be nearly unrecognizable in 5 years.

I am thinking of the best way to articulate, my thoughts in a way that will not, and cannot be taken out of context. So, it might take me a while. I am leaving my office now....and it will take me a while..because I'm going to walk home...in 30 degree weather. So, hopefully, when I get home on about 4 hours...I will have a good response. but, I will do my best to give a response, that will be at a level of intellect that cannot be mistaken for anything other than what it really is.

I think you explained yourself quite well. It's simple, you believe that this:

http://img.weburbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/003-cars.jpg

is the best way of life there is. Men should be manly, and want to work on cars. They should probably have played football too, or God help you, at least baseball. You should want a big nice house with a yard you can work in. You should grill hot dogs and hamburgers in your backyard on the weekend, and then play a few games of poker with your buddies while you smoke cigars. Your ideal American man is Don Draper.

And you can't understand why anyone wouldn't want these things. You're afraid the nation is turning into a bunch of panty-waist losers who don't want to work hard and won't let their kids play sports. And them wanting to live in an urban setting where they walk everywhere or take public transportation is so far out there that you can't even conceive of it.

I think you did an amazing job of getting your point across, even if you're reluctant to admit to it now.

Ahhh...the American Dream...

And if it's not your dream, well then **** you.

I don't know that I agree about the city being livable without access to a car. Where can I live where I can walk to a grocery store, a local bank branch, a doctor/medical center, dining, shopping, household goods stores, some form of entertainment, and a significant employment base?

Is the answer you can but you must take uber or the bus? How is that any different than living in a suburb leasing a car?

Edit: To follow-up on that last thought, before responding also think about if your answer is one that can be true at any time, or only between the hours of 6 a.m. and 9 p.m.

Is minimally liveable the same thing as liveable?

I'm thinking 2025-2030 based on the current speed of development here. I think it really finally starts to happen after the rail lines are installed and have been active for a few years and a few more millennials have come of age and moved here.

Come to think of it unless you're single minimal living would also likely involve schools, hair salons, nail salons, clothing stores, makeup counters, etc.

I don't know that I agree about the city being livable without access to a car. Where can I live where I can walk to a grocery store, a local bank branch, a doctor/medical center, dining, shopping, household goods stores, some form of entertainment, and a significant employment base?

Is the answer you can but you must take uber or the bus? How is that any different than living in a suburb leasing a car?

Edit: To follow-up on that last thought, before responding also think about if your answer is one that can be true at any time, or only between the hours of 6 a.m. and 9 p.m.

Is minimally liveable the same thing as liveable?

I'm thinking 2025-2030 based on the current speed of development here. I think it really finally starts to happen after the rail lines are installed and have been active for a few years and a few more millennials have come of age and moved here.

I agree, which is why I said livable "comfortably". Right now there is currently nowhere in OKC you can comfortably live without a car. You can technically do it, but like Andrew Perry's sig says, in a quality city you should be able to live without a car and not feel deprived. I do think within five years, as long as the streetcar gets built as planned, it will be doable in downtown for the most part. It definitely will in ten years.

I think there are some interesting points pertinent to this topic and the ensuing discussion in this WSJ article:

Can Money Buy Happiness? Here?s What Science Has to Say - WSJ - WSJ (http://m.wsj.com/articles/can-money-buy-happiness-heres-what-science-has-to-say-1415569538?mobile=y&mod=e2tw)

Again, to each their own but me, my wife, and our three kids quite comfortably lived in Deep Deuce without a car.

I think he means without a car, as in not ever needing to use one. Not car ownership, but car use in general. So TimeCar and regular Uber/taxi use excluded.

I agree, which is why I said livable "comfortably". Right now there is currently nowhere in OKC you can comfortably live without a car. You can technically do it, but like Andrew Perry's sig says, in a quality city you should be able to live without a car and not feel deprived. I do think within five years, as long as the streetcar gets built as planned, it will be doable in downtown for the most part. It definitely will in ten years.

According to YOUR definition of comfortable.

The thing is, so many on here think to be urban you have everything you need within a block. Even in NYC you may have to go blocks before finding a decent grocery, drug store, etc. and, you might have to take a cab, bus or other. I think sometimes many who haven't lived in an urban environment expect this utopian state ... Sort of like suburbanites like to think of suburbia.

According to YOUR definition of comfortable.

The thing is, so many on here think to be urban you have everything you need within a block. Even in NYC you may have to go blocks before finding a decent grocery, drug store, etc. and, you might have to take a cab, bus or other. I think sometimes many who haven't lived in an urban environment expect this utopian state ... Sort of like suburbanites like to think of suburbia.

My kids have lived in downtown Chicago for 4-5 years and rely on all of the above, plus delivery services for groceries and goods on occasion. They have lived in the loop, lakeside and two places in wrigleyville. My son rides a bike a long distance to get on a train and then rides his bike again when he gets off. Daughter-in-law takes the train. They probably don't have to, but guess what, they still own a car and use it. Sure, they could rent one when they want to go to Ikea in the burbs, Milwaukee for fun or make some other arrangements for times like when we drove somewhere to get boxes to pack for a move.

I wish we had a fitting place name for the urban center of OKC so people who can't see past it would quit confusing and/or not qualifying what they mean when they are talking about that area.

According to YOUR definition of comfortable.

The thing is, so many on here think to be urban you have everything you need within a block. Even in NYC you may have to go blocks before finding a decent grocery, drug store, etc. and, you might have to take a cab, bus or other. I think sometimes many who haven't lived in an urban environment expect this utopian state ... Sort of like suburbanites like to think of suburbia.

A few blocks != having to go a few miles like you have to in OKC. I have lived in an up-and-coming urban city - Charlotte - that has everything I listed as needed for being able to live comfortably without a car downtown. For things that aren't downtown, you can hop on the light rail and get to them very quickly. I seriously question if you've lived or even spent time in a real urban environment if you think OKC currently meets the standard. I am not trying to belittle OKC's progress but its not there yet in 2014 and I think anybody looking through realist glasses can admit that.


My kids have lived in downtown Chicago for 4-5 years and rely on all of the above, plus delivery services for groceries and goods on occasion. They have lived in the loop, lakeside and two places in wrigleyville. My son rides a bike a long distance to get on a train and then rides his bike again when he gets off. Daughter-in-law takes the train. They probably don't have to, but guess what, they still own a car and use it. Sure, they could rent one when they want to go to Ikea in the burbs, Milwaukee for fun or make some other arrangements for times like when we drove somewhere to get boxes to pack for a move.

How far do they have to go for a decent grocery store or pharmacy? Is it within walking/biking distance? I do know many people who live in neighborhoods where they could be car free still own cars. I am not advocating a city where nobody owns a car like some have suggested.



I wish we had a fitting place name for the urban center of OKC so people who can't see past it would quit confusing and/or not qualifying what they mean when they are talking about that area.

I agree completely. When posting this I assumed it was understood that I was speaking about specifically the urban core and not the far reaches of suburbia.

A few blocks != having to go a few miles like you have to in OKC. I have lived in an up-and-coming urban city - Charlotte - that has everything I listed as needed for being able to live comfortably without a car downtown. For things that aren't downtown, you can hop on the light rail and get to them very quickly. I seriously question if you've lived or even spent time in a real urban environment if you think OKC currently meets the standard. I am not trying to belittle OKC's progress but its not there yet in 2014 and I think anybody looking through realist glasses can admit that.



How far do they have to go for a decent grocery store or pharmacy? Is it within walking/biking distance? I do know many people who live in neighborhoods where they could be car free still own cars. I am not advocating a city where nobody owns a car like some have suggested.



I agree completely. When posting this I assumed it was understood that I was speaking about specifically the urban core and not the far reaches of suburbia.

Everything is relative. They are within walking or biking distance to just about everything they need but I guess you could insert words like easy walking or biking, and then consider Chicago (and OKC) weather. Sometimes are easy and sometimes are less so.

I seriously question if you've lived or even spent time in a real urban environment if you think OKC currently meets the standard.

LOL. Yes, I will put my urban experience against yours....unless you also find a reason to discredit NYC or Chicago. I know it isn't Charlotte, but someday maybe they will be as good. Having spent 20 years working in built up urban environments around the world has given me a pretty good frame of reference I think.

You have missed the entire point of my comments trying to prove your argument. Is OKC an advanced urban environment....No. But that isn't what I claimed. What I said was there are spots now in the city where you could live well without owning a car...close to banks, grocery stores, shopping, green spaces, bike trails, walking trails, restaurants, etc (not MILES away, but BLOCKS away. What I said was that it just doesn't look like a textbook picture, pre-packaged urban area. And those spots aren't always downtown....the only place you want to look for your argument.

I also said that even in highly urban environment doesn't mean you have a grocery outside your front door, or a dentist's office, or drug store, or..... Going several blocks to get what you need isn't uncommon in other urban areas, so I don't understand the feeling that you have to have it here.

Sometimes some are so focused on THEIR view that they can not even see what is available to them.

You have missed the entire point of my comments trying to prove your argument. Is OKC an advanced urban environment....No. But that isn't what I claimed. What I said was there are spots now in the city where you could live well without owning a car...close to banks, grocery stores, shopping, green spaces, bike trails, walking trails, restaurants, etc (not MILES away, but BLOCKS away. What I said was that it just doesn't look like a textbook picture, pre-packaged urban area. And those spots aren't always downtown....the only place you want to look for your argument.

My big mistake was the way I worded this thread. I clearly meant downtown but most people seem to think I was talking about the city as a whole. I am not sure why that wasn't understood as downtown-centric as OKCTalk is. The appropriate title may have been "Downtown OKC a complete urban environment by 2020?"

I am with you that right now if you are going to live without a car, downtown isn't the easiest place to do it. Most of the services/amenities available in OKC are still concentrated in the burbs because that's where the people are. If I had to live without a car around here, it would probably be easiest to make work around NW Expressway and 50th or maybe around 23rd St and Penn. It might even be doable in Edmond or the Quail Springs Mall area.

As for downtown, more warm bodies will be the key ingredient. As more people live in downtown OKC the services will come. I don't think its as far off as some think it is given the amount of transformation that has occurred just in the past three years.

Come to think of it unless you're single minimal living would also likely involve schools, hair salons, nail salons, clothing stores, makeup counters, etc.

What kind of living are you proposing here? Oo