ocura already has an agreement to buy the extra property

Well that was a major misread of the meeting item by me.

Hopefully it won't add too much of a delay, then.

I hope that someone comes in with a couple towers 15-20 stories for this prop. Am I dreaming here?

I don't think that will happen until a lot more of the surface lots are gone. As long as you have the room to build a 4-5 story complex (exactly like they proposed here), that's what they'll build. They are cheaper and easier to get financing for.

I hope that someone comes in with a couple towers 15-20 stories for this prop. Am I dreaming here?

I think you're probably dreaming primarily because I'm just not sure who would lease the space .We don't have the demand to fill that level of office space (or residential space).

Yes, not a good time to build more new office space (there is a big supply in the CBD right now) and hi-rise residential demands higher prices than the market has been willing to pay.

Remember, Times Square was once proposed for this site and now the developer is selling his property because he couldn't make it work.

The most likely outcome would be something like Boulevard Place, with several floors of apartments with commercial on the ground level and an adjacent parking structure.

City laying the groundwork for this to show up in the RFP applications.

https://cdnassets.hw.net/dims4/GG/73fc9ba/2147483647/resize/876x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2F6a%2F13%2F7c 3b07e747a78b48186fa166ee74%2Ffort-totten-square-01.jpg

I kind of overlooked this on account of my misread of the recent update, but I would love to see something like this. A nice urban Walmart Neighborhood Market would be the missing piece for downtown grocery shopping. Sure, it would be nicer to have something like an Uptown Grocery here or elsewhere downtown, but I wouldn't be upset at Walmart claiming that role.

I kind of overlooked this on account of my misread of the recent update, but I would love to see something like this. A nice urban Walmart Neighborhood Market would be the missing piece for downtown grocery shopping. Sure, it would be nicer to have something like an Uptown Grocery here or elsewhere downtown, but I wouldn't be upset at Walmart claiming that role.

Why would Uptown Grocery be better? I think food, especially produce is way better at Wal Mart. Also, Wal Mart would provide much more because its not just a grocery store.

Why would Uptown Grocery be better? I think food, especially produce is way better at Wal Mart. Also, Wal Mart would provide much more because its not just a grocery store.
While it pains me to type it because of a general disdain for Walmart, I agree. A store that sells a lot more than just groceries would be a big boon to downtown OKC. I'd certainly welcome and patronize a downtown Neighborhood Market.

Why would Uptown Grocery be better? I think food, especially produce is way better at Wal Mart. Also, Wal Mart would provide much more because its not just a grocery store.
Aldi is testing an urban store model in London (Aldi Local) and would like to bring to the US. It is bigger than a c store but smaller than a regular grocery store. Could be a winner downtown with our smaller population. The city or a developer should recruit and maybe even incentivize them to put a concept store here as a US test.

I wouldn't mind if the city allocated part of the downtown BID for grocery store incentive within the zone. I think they have brainstormed raising this, too.

I wouldn't mind if the city allocated part of the downtown BID for grocery store incentive within the zone. I think they have brainstormed raising this, too.

The issue is that that Native Roots (now operated by Uptown Grocers, ironically) is already there and they want it to be successful.

And this is in general one of downsides of supplementing any business in a competitive environment. By doing so, you are penalizing those who went forward without any incentives and did it first.

Why would Uptown Grocery be better? I think food, especially produce is way better at Wal Mart. Also, Wal Mart would provide much more because its not just a grocery store.

Have you ever been in an Uptown? Their selection of things from smaller companies and niche companies more than likely is way better than WalMart (I can't directly compare because I never set foot in a Walmart by choice). Go to www.uptowngroceryco.com and search/browse their online shopping for The Village (we've only ever shopped at that one, so don't know if the Edmond one is comparable) and compare to Walmart and see which one comes out on top with "better" items (Walmart will win on sheer variety, but 18 different kinds of French's mustard isn't "better" than 18 different kinds of mustard made by 8 different companies, IMO). Also, does Walmart have a pizza/sandwich bar/deli/lunchmeat counter? A salad and hot foods bar? I will agree that Uptown's produce could be better, though, they put their red potatoes in the refrigerated/sprinkled section with the greens, they don't carry standard yellow onions, their mushrooms aren't great, they don't put their asparagus in water, etc. And one more thing that's better about Uptown than Walmart is that they're locally owned.

The issue is that that Native Roots (now operated by Uptown Grocers, ironically) is already there and they want it to be successful.

And this is in general one of downsides of supplementing any business in a competitive environment. By doing so, you are penalizing those who went forward without any incentives and did it first.
That’s true, but sometimes those that went first don’t expand to fill the real need and block others who are otherwise willing.

Why would Uptown Grocery be better? I think food, especially produce is way better at Wal Mart. Also, Wal Mart would provide much more because its not just a grocery store.

I like the locally owned bit better, and their general aesthetic is nice.

Aldi is testing an urban store model in London (Aldi Local) and would like to bring to the US. It is bigger than a c store but smaller than a regular grocery store. Could be a winner downtown with our smaller population. The city or a developer should recruit and maybe even incentivize them to put a concept store here as a US test.

I'm not sure that market is capable of supporting a larger grocery store. However some like a Fresh & Easy, Neighborhood market, or Walgreen's( Fresh and Ready) grocer with a smaller footprint may be the best bet.

Have you ever been in an Uptown? Their selection of things from smaller companies and niche companies more than likely is way better than WalMart (I can't directly compare because I never set foot in a Walmart by choice). Go to www.uptowngroceryco.com and search/browse their online shopping for The Village (we've only ever shopped at that one, so don't know if the Edmond one is comparable) and compare to Walmart and see which one comes out on top with "better" items (Walmart will win on sheer variety, but 18 different kinds of French's mustard isn't "better" than 18 different kinds of mustard made by 8 different companies, IMO). Also, does Walmart have a pizza/sandwich bar/deli/lunchmeat counter? A salad and hot foods bar? I will agree that Uptown's produce could be better, though, they put their red potatoes in the refrigerated/sprinkled section with the greens, they don't carry standard yellow onions, their mushrooms aren't great, they don't put their asparagus in water, etc. And one more thing that's better about Uptown than Walmart is that they're locally owned.

Yes, I've been there. The building and decor is great, the food is WAY overpriced. I personally don't care for all the fufu junk, I just need some nice natural ingredients & I think Uptown Grocery has some of the worst I've ever seen TBH. When it comes down to it, I got grocery shopping for the groceries & not to be in a cool building. The delis are pretty neat though, but do we not have enough restaurants downtown? lol

I don't even shop at Wal Mart but the hate they receive is steeped way more in irrational emotion than it is fact. Their groceries are pretty damn good.

I'm not sure that market is capable of supporting a larger grocery store. However some like a Fresh & Easy with a smaller footprint may be the best bet.
This Aldi concept is smaller than their regular stores, but bigger than convenience stores. Good for urban footprint and local service of smaller populations.

Yes. I was in agreement.

I'm not sure that market is capable of supporting a larger grocery store. However some like a Fresh & Easy, Neighborhood market, or Walgreen's( Fresh and Ready) grocer with a smaller footprint may be the best bet.

I think the Fresh & Easy experiment in the US is done for now

I think the Fresh & Easy experiment in the US is done for now
I didn't think they were still around so I looked it up and they declared bankruptcy for the second time in two years in 2017 and as far as I can tell have done nothing since.

I didn't think they were still around so I looked it up and they declared bankruptcy for the second time in two years in 2017 and as far as I can tell have done nothing since.

We had them in California and I wasn't impressed.

Everything -- including produce -- was pre-packaged.

A lot like Aldi but without the interesting items. And clearly, not as well run.

Yes, I've been there. The building and decor is great, the food is WAY overpriced. I personally don't care for all the fufu junk, I just need some nice natural ingredients & I think Uptown Grocery has some of the worst I've ever seen TBH. When it comes down to it, I got grocery shopping for the groceries & not to be in a cool building. The delis are pretty neat though, but do we not have enough restaurants downtown? lol

I don't even shop at Wal Mart but the hate they receive is steeped way more in irrational emotion than it is fact. Their groceries are pretty damn good.

That depends highly on the individual store. The full-service Walmart and the Walmart Neighborhood Market nearest my house on the south side both consistently have terrible produce. I still tend to shop there because there aren't any other real options nearby - though I'm at the point where if I need any fresh fruit or vegetables, I'll drive out of my way to go to Crest or Sprouts. The new Walmart on I-44 has much better produce than the closer Walmarts, but it's also even further out of my way than Crest or Sprouts.

so.... 4th and EK Gaylord... i'm really looking forward to some hopefully new proposals, and both of them were kind of meh before... and it was a matter of just picking the better of meh options.

i deleted a heated argument over... produce selection. let's get back to topic.

i deleted a heated argument over... produce selection. let's get back to topic.

haha.. hey, i was trying to get it back on topic! lol

thank you sir!

Is it bad to want something like this to come to this area? Maybe not the Ritz, but some kind of upscale hotel and 100's of condo's? Not saying we are the next Portland, but I think something like this, in a key locale like 4th and EK Gaylord, could work, especially if the residential units have some market-rate component.

https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2019/06/20/developer-to-bring-the-northwests-first-ritz.html?iana=hpmvp_ptl_news_headline

Is it bad to want something like this to come to this area? Maybe not the Ritz, but some kind of upscale hotel and 100's of condo's? Not saying we are the next Portland, but I think something like this, in a key locale like 4th and EK Gaylord, could work, especially if the residential units have some market-rate component.

https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2019/06/20/developer-to-bring-the-northwests-first-ritz.html?iana=hpmvp_ptl_news_headline

i would love something like that.. this block screams for height... but i think i have to agree with most that it probably won't happen

i would love something like that.. this block screams for height... but i think i have to agree with most that it probably won't happen

I would imagine you are less likely to get more height that Rose Rocks plan when you force new proposals to use the entire large block. It will now be lower and more spread out. I still think a bird in one hand applies here. I dont think its necessary to try to make a whole block proposal happen, unless they in fact do want a grocery store here. Otherwise, take whats in front of you now.

The new RFP with the combined properties is not issued yet...

I found these renderings on the Beck Designs website. I believe they have been around for a while, and this will never, ever happen considering the very large amount of vacant downtown office space, but still fun to look at. 55 stories by my count.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/beck1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/beck2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/beck3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/beck4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/beck5.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/beck6.jpg

Why not? Dream big. Haha

Thanks for sharing Pete. fun to look at for sure!

I like it but but the podium sucks. This would be nice for NWE with the current proposal.

Why would you do that to us Pete?!

WOW! Scrolling up from bottom to top got my hopes up like crazy! Fun to look at for sure but I’d love for Devon to stay the tallest building in the city. Devon represents a change in OKC. It became the tallest building in the state right in the midst of other transformative times for us (MAPS 3, getting the Thunder, etc). Devon Tower screams “we’re finally a big league city”. It’s our crown jewel.

At least to me.

Yea my heart about stopped. Either of those towers would be a true miracle. But like Pete said, the CBD is full of vacant offices and the only thing that would justify a tower right now would be a massive company relocation from outside of OKC.

Even Devon Tower has a lot of empty floors.

SandRidge Tower is almost completely vacant, BancFirst has tons of space as does BOK Park Plaza. And Enable just left a big hole in Leadership Square; Echo has plenty of space for lease at the Parkside Building.

That's a lot of new and newly renovated space sitting on the market right now.

^^^ It goes to show how out of sync OKC's economy is with the national economy. This city was booming early in this decade whenever the rest of the country was still in recession. Today, it's quite the opposite situation. I wouldn't say the local economy here is bad but it's definitely more on the stagnant side at the current time.

Because I am sports obsessed and old, the first thing that came to mind is---

"The Howard Schellenberger Obelisk".

This tall erect tower is obviously the corresponding art piece to the nearby OKC-cockring


*sees self out the door*

this tall erect tower is obviously the corresponding art piece to the nearby okc-cockring


*sees self out the door*

bravo!!!..

OCURA will re-issue the RFP for the entire parcel (including the land being acquired from Jonathan Russel) on 9/23 and responses will be due in December.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/4thekg090919.jpg

Even Devon Tower has a lot of empty floors.

SandRidge Tower is almost completely vacant, BancFirst has tons of space as does BOK Park Plaza. And Enable just left a big hole in Leadership Square; Echo has plenty of space for lease at the Parkside Building.

That's a lot of new and newly renovated space sitting on the market right now.

So build it they they will come isn't happening downtown like they thought?

So build it they they will come isn't happening downtown like they thought?

The big oil companies have downsized pretty drastically and that's the biggest part of it, along with BOK Park Plaza coming online.

Amazon seems to be handing out 1,000's of jobs to cities all the time (see Nashville or Portland, for example). I am still not sure why this city and state think only O&G companies need downtown office space. Why don't they target big banks or tech companies? Just mind-boggling.

Tech companies are drawn to centers of education and many are start-ups that come from high-level colleges.

Until we invest in education we are always going to lag in tech.

OCURA will re-issue the RFP for the entire parcel (including the land being acquired from Jonathan Russel) on 9/23 and responses will be due in December.


So OCURA is buying Russel parcel? Any idea what they are paying?

Amazon seems to be handing out 1,000's of jobs to cities all the time (see Nashville or Portland, for example). I am still not sure why this city and state think only O&G companies need downtown office space. Why don't they target big banks or tech companies? Just mind-boggling.

+1000
Manufacturing (Durable and Non Durable)

We need a true education campus downtown, like the Auraria Campus in Denver. Also, OKCCC needs more than just one location.

Just an idea, the City of Seattle alone has:

Seattle Central Community College (Capital Hill, near downtown)
N Seattle Community College
S Seattle Community College
Highline Community College

The metro area has: Everett Community College and Edmonds Community College in the north, the HUGE Bellevue College in the East, and numerous in the south. That's in addition to the University of Washington (3 campuses: Seattle, Tacoma, and Bothell/NE Metro), Seattle University (also Cap Hill next to downtown), and Seattle Pacific University and several more privates and vo-techs. This shows a commitment to Education, not even counting the many colleges in Tacoma area. Seattle has 710,000 people, 3.7 M Seattle-Tacoma metro.

OKC is very lacking. OKC has OKCCC and Rose State(MWC) for community college, OU (Norman, OKC), OCU, UCO (Edmond), SNU (Bethany), and OSU-OKC for universities, Metro-Tech and Francis Tuttle for vo-techs and that's it. Pretty good on universities actually but not on lower level post-secondary.

I'm not saying OKC should be just like Seattle but there are many things that Seattle does/has that OKC could use for benchmarking, esp since Seattle is one of the poster cities for the US right now. I'd start with a new OCCC in downtown or even next to OUSC for children not score enough to get to university.

If OKC made that type of commitment to education - real education that reaches people, I'm sure OKC could get similar lovin' that the poster cities get. It's really the only thing those cities have OKC beat on.

OKC needs what TCC is for Tulsa.

Amazon seems to be handing out 1,000's of jobs to cities all the time (see Nashville or Portland, for example). I am still not sure why this city and state think only O&G companies need downtown office space. Why don't they target big banks or tech companies? Just mind-boggling.

Good point, which begs the question: Why does no one in the city pick up their Amazon job handouts?

OKC has OKCCC and Rose State(MWC) for community college, OU (Norman, OKC), OCU, UCO (Edmond), SNU (Bethany), and OSU-OKC for universities, Metro-Tech and Francis Tuttle for vo-techs and that's it. Pretty good on universities actually but not on lower level post-secondary.




Missed a few:

Four-year
Langston University (Langston)
Oklahoma State University–Oklahoma City
University of Central Oklahoma (Edmond)
University of Oklahoma (Norman)
University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma (Chickasha)
Two-year
Oklahoma City Community College
Redlands Community College (El Reno)
Rose State College (Midwest City)
Private
American Christian College and Seminary
DeVry University - Oklahoma City campus
Downtown College Consortium[1]
Heartland Baptist Bible College[2]
Hillsdale Free-Will Baptist College (Moore)
Metropolitan College
Mid-America Christian University
Oklahoma Baptist College
Oklahoma Baptist University (Shawnee)
Oklahoma Christian University
Oklahoma City University
Southern Nazarene University (Bethany)
Southwestern Christian University
University of Phoenix - Oklahoma City campuses

OKC needs what TCC is for Tulsa.

OKC has Rose State and Redlands in the near vicinity, as well. You have almost all of OKC covered with those 3 schools. UCO is up north (that may be where a community college could go, there or Norman).

So do we expect a bidder to request that third be closed in order to connect that tiny bit at the bottom or should we expect some interesting connectivity over the street?

I'm sure they won't ask to close that street, just put some sort of public art on that odd parcel.

Tech companies are drawn to centers of education and many are start-ups that come from high-level colleges.

Until we invest in education we are always going to lag in tech.

OMG This is SO TRUE.

A couple of things in response to this conversation.

I work for a very high tech oilfield software company and a couple of observations of the last couple from the last couple of years directly apply here:

1) Those oil company office tower jobs ARE NOT COMING BACK. Modern E&P companies have a TINY permanent office work force, Echo is actually a really good example. Modern production companies mostly consist of a minimal staff of specialists, geologists, tech / data science people, and finance people that are crazy good at what they do. They get venture capital backing, buy existing assets, optimize, improve production prove reserves and then SELL, shut down the operation, start it again under a new name or the same name with a number after it and repeat the cycle. A lot of their field operations may be outsourced or on a contractor basis and many of them may only last a few years before the divest and repeat action. Some get to be pretty big, but not like Devon big. Also, the vast majority are located in other markets with better VC access, like Houston or Denver. Most of them look like software startups more than oil companies and their offices reflect that too. It's a wildly different world in E&P and honestly companies like Chesapeake kicked it off and in the process kind of became dinosaurs themselves.

2) LOL at the idea of filling those towers with tech jobs. Software companies are small-medium sized for the most part and pay very very well, they follow talent, not cheap real estate (many don't even need real estate). As someone who works for a company trying to hire developers and other tech professionals constantly in OKC, the talent base is literally not here. Our University programs are pretty out of date by the standards of modern software companies and there just isn't the kind of intellectual infrastructure here to support a large tech operation. I mean, my company is pretty small, and we hire every qualified dev in Oklahoma we can find, but like 2/3 of our dev force is out of state or even the country. OKC is a LONG way off of having a nationally significant tech economy, a lot of the people that are good that work in it now are remote employees working for out of state companies, likely got their education out of state and either returned home for cheap living or to follow a spouse or partner (or raise kids).

Honestly the big vacancies downtown may be one of OKC's trickiest problems to solve.

Even the tech industry doesn't pay as well as it used to. Companies have been more than willing to offshore developer jobs or bring in cheaper employees on H1B visas and no its not because they are not meeting demand. They have laid off several more experience developers here in the US in recent years in favor of cheaper workers.

The company that recently moved into The Plow building: Rural Sourcing actually built a business module around this fact. True, it is nice to have developers in your own timezone who can speak your own language fluently, but its difficult for companies to pass up the cost savings of offshoring.

does OKC really have big vacancies downtown?

I thought the CBRE report had downtown as the strongest market and growing in the metro but that the suburbs (esp NW OKC) was having the biggest vacancies. The only vacancies I can think of downtown are 1/3 of BOKPP and some of Leadership Square and BankFirst. That probably totals less than 500k square feet vacant

does OKC really have big vacancies downtown?

I thought the CBRE report had downtown as the strongest market and growing in the metro but that the suburbs (esp NW OKC) was having the biggest vacancies. The only vacancies I can think of downtown are 1/3 of BOKPP and some of Leadership Square and BankFirst. That probably totals less than 500k square feet vacant

Almost all of SandRidge Tower, 2/3 of BOK Park Plaza, big hole now at Leadership Square (Enable moved for BOKPP), Pioneer Building still completely empty, 2/3 of Parkside, will be lots of space at BancFirst Tower even after they move leaving their current downtown building empty and Devon Tower is about 1/3 empty now. Even the old BOK space from which they moved is still sitting there. And this doesn't include the 20-story Dowell Plaza building that is shuttered.

So, yes, lots of vacancy.

Paycom sucks up a huge volume of talent but I don’t see them ever moving downtown. They are in far NW OKC. Also quite a few are junior talent when hired and get experience and eventually move on.

Isn't Express Personnel Services in OKC? Would they come downtown?

Isn't Express Personnel Services in OKC? Would they come downtown?
I think they reduced their HQ footprint at the campus they built off NW Expressway, so that seems unlikely.