Rose Rock is much better. The other one looks like cheap suburban crap.

Rose Rock is much better. The other one looks like cheap suburban crap.

there is no picture of what the other looks like

I honestly hope somehow both proposals can be built. have them on top of one another.

Underground parking with entry at the viaduct, retail on first and maybe second floor (including the bank branch), bank offices on 3-5 then apartments on the 6-12+ (hopefully higher). STL is right, there MUST be retail on this gateway corner and I also think the development should mirror Boulevard Tower down the street. ...

^ THIS is mixed use development and THIS corner begs for this sort of plan. Also, by combining the elements of the two we get a mid to highrise vs. the continuation of stick built 6 floor and less apartments.

Here's the lead business reporter for our state's largest newspaper not so subtly advocating for the Bomasada apartment proposal. This is a direct result of his completely unprofessional and unethical relationship with Jonathan Russell, who uses this reporter as his personal PR firm.

Russell owns the lot that Bomasada has under contract. The Rose Rock proposal would only involve the city's property.

Remember when Russell summoned the Oklahoman to do a story on the facade they unexpectedly revealed when working on Russell's redevelopment, The Rise? They ran out there with a camera crew and did this whole story at a time Russell was getting a lot of heat due to very long delays at The Rise and was facing lawsuits from multiple tenants. No matter that exact facade had already been submitted as part of their design proposal more than a year before, something the Oklahoman didn't bother to check or closely follow the subject of their own story to have known better.

THIS is the type of crap that is so very bad for Oklahoma City. It's called Access Journalism and involves favor-trading to get stories and news rather than working hard and finding information on your own. It's a practice universally criticized and avoided by any respectable journalist and news organizations due to the massive conflicts of interest inherent in such a 'relationship'.

If you pay attention, you'll see several developers are treated like rock stars by the Oklahoman; "A street should be named after x!" While most are just trying to control the news and push their own agenda. All the while, angling for millions in public incentives, presently or in the past or future. Whether the projects deserve them or not involves real work and investigation and calculations and objective analysis and perspective. Or often, a developer is working towards a demolition or some other politically difficult situation (OG&E & Rainey Williams leap to mind).

And a huge percentage of reporting by the Oklahoman on these projects is driven by whether the reporter has a personal relationship with the subject or not. Or if the subject is an advertiser in their publication.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/lackmeyer4thEKG032219.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/lackmeyer4thEKG032219b.jpg

So, you think parking is the better use of this spot than residential? We know how you feel about the Oklahoman, but we don't know how you feel about the proposals.

So, you think parking is the better use of this spot than residential? We know how you feel about the Oklahoman, but we don't know how you feel about the proposals.

I don't understand your question. One proposal is for a mixed-use of parking, office, restaurant and retail space. The other is for apartments and a parking structure.

Absolutely the Rose Rock proposal wins. Remember this is not showcasing any of the retail space. If i think about a long impact, the commercial space will have a much larger influence on the area than some apartments which look like they can be built anywhere.

Absolutely the Rose Rock proposal wins. Remember this is not showcasing any of the retail space. If i think about a long impact, the commercial space will have a much larger influence on the area than some apartments which look like they can be built anywhere.

This is exactly what drives me crazy about downtown OKC. There are several new/newer developments that absolutely don't look like they belong in a downtown. Zero uniqueness to them. Be they hotels,offices, larger apartment complexes or restaurants. I LOVE infill. I love adding density and hotel rooms to our downtown. I just don't really like those suburban urban developments downtown. I already like the Rose Rock design better. I'm just not too worried about adding housing RIGHT NOW because we HAVE TO build up density. Let the right developments come. They'll certainly be there. No need to just accept everything.

Granted, we don't know what the Bomasada stuff looks like yet, but if it looks like any other 4 story apartment complex that could be on Jenkins and Constitution on Norman, or Memorial and Penn in OKC, that's a hard pass from me.

Give me the qualify use of space and character of that Rose Rock plan everytime.

This is exactly what drives me crazy about downtown OKC. There are several new/newer developments that absolutely don't look like they belong in a downtown. Zero uniqueness to them. Be they hotels,offices, larger apartment complexes or restaurants. I LOVE infill. I love adding density and hotel rooms to our downtown. I just don't really like those suburban urban developments downtown. I already like the Rose Rock design better. I'm just not too worried about adding housing RIGHT NOW because we HAVE TO build up density. Let the right developments come. They'll certainly be there. No need to just accept everything.

Granted, we don't know what the Bomasada stuff looks like yet, but if it looks like any other 4 story apartment complex that could be on Jenkins and Constitution on Norman, or Memorial and Penn in OKC, that's a hard pass from me.

Give me the qualify use of space and character of that Rose Rock plan everytime.

That's exactly why I favor the Rose Rock proposal as well. We definitely do need more residential, but we want urban residential in the core. It needs to be tall and dense, and not following a more suburban layout like the submitted Bomasada proposal. They didn't even submit renderings. To me, the Bomasada proposal is half-baked.

I prefer the Rose Rock proposal... but I’m surprised a lot of you guys also agree. Seems like the #1 thing people fuss about is adding more housing to the core

I prefer the Bomasada proposal, more residential is always good. As you have persons 24/7. Office, after 5 & on the weekends it will be dead. It wouldn't be hard to add a retail component to the Bomasada proposal. All these plans are preliminary so adjustments can be made.

Here's the lead business reporter for our state's largest newspaper not so subtly advocating for the Bomasada apartment proposal. This is a direct result of his completely unprofessional and unethical relationship with Jonathan Russell, who uses this reporter has his personal PR firm.

Russell owns the lot that Bomasada has under contract. The Rose Rock proposal would only involve the city's property.

Remember when Russell summoned the Oklahoman to do a story on the facade they unexpectedly revealed when working on Russell's redevelopment, The Rise? They ran out there with a camera crew and did this whole story at a time Russell was getting a lot of heat due to very long delays at The Rise and was facing lawsuits from multiple tenants. No matter that exact facade had already been submitted as part of their design proposal more than a year before, something the Oklahoman didn't bother to check or closely follow the subject of their own story to have known better.

THIS is the type of crap that is so very bad for Oklahoma City. It's called Access Journalism and involves favor-trading to get stories and news rather than working hard and finding information on your own. It's a practice universally criticized and avoided by any respectable journalist and news organizations due to the massive conflicts of interest inherent in such a 'relationship'.

If you pay attention, you'll see several developers are treated like rock stars by the Oklahoman; "A street should be named after x!" While most are just trying to control the news and push their own agenda. All the while, angling for millions in public incentives, presently or in the past or future. Whether the projects deserve them or not involves real work and investigation and calculations and objective analysis and perspective. Or often, a developer is working towards a demolition or some other politically difficult situation (OG&E & Rainey Williams leap to mind).

And a huge percentage of reporting by the Oklahoman on these projects is driven by whether the reporter has a personal relationship with the subject or not. Or if the subject is an advertiser in their publication.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/lackmeyer4thEKG032219.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/lackmeyer4thEKG032219b.jpg

Lackmeyer seems to have a very casual relationship with "reporting". I know this was under his blog so it is not considered reporting, but today he had a byline on the front page concerning the bicycle death that was more opinion than reporting.

Lackmeyer seems to have a very casual relationship with "reporting". I know this was under his blog so it is not considered reporting, but today he had a byline on the front page concerning the bicycle death that was more opinion than reporting.

His chats are printed in the paper as well, under his byline.

His chats are printed in the paper as well, under his byline.

Yes, but they are obviously opinion just like Berry Tramel's Q&A's, so I have no problem with that. I had an issue with some of his reporting being opinion but in the recent past they've started labeling it as opinion under his byline so they've made a little progress. Today's article brings up some important issues that this city has with cycling but he clearly inserts his view into the article.

Berry Tramel is a columnist, only opinion and human interest angles, so there is never any confusion about his writing. Once in a while, he'll write a game report but there is no confusing that, either.

Writers should be reporters or columnists, not both... And at the very least if you are going to try and be both, each article should be clearly labeled as falling clearly into one category or the other. And the two should never, ever be mixed together.


From the Society of Professional Journalists:


Reporters are not columnists or editorial writers. SPJ’s recommendation is that reporters not take a position on an issue that they are covering. They may do so privately, but they definitely should not do so in a public or visible way.

^Totally agree.

I might even suggest that a sports writer would have a little more leeway regarding mixing opinion and straight reporting than a business writer would.

Rose Rock's land use is better and it's not particularly close. Not having retail/restaurant at 4th and EK Gaylord should be a non-starter.

If you could conjoin the two developments, that would be better --- the idea that the tract between the BNSF tracks and the RFP site would be hard to eventually be developed is really as poor of an argument as there is to be made for choosing Bomasda over Rose Rock. Yeah, it may be great if they could be part of one whole development, but never under the condition that a pedestrian wouldn't enter the building for public use at 4th/EKG.

And you know what, I don't even think I believe that it should be one development. OKC urgently needs less monolithic structures and more mid-block development.

Teo, that was my thoughts - combine the two with Round Rock being the architectural design but adding the housing on top making a much denser development (aka - high rise).

While I favor Rose Rock between the two, I'm not opposed to a combined effort. Nothing wrong with best of both worlds if they can make it work. Will be interesting to see how OCURA responds to these.

I'd go for a bunch of apartments here any day over a bank branch and parking garage, assuming they had a mixed use component on the first couple of floors. Ideally, like others have posted, I'd love to see the bank branch/retail/parking proposal but with a couple hundred housing units stacked on top.

Bomasada -- the apartment developer -- only builds apartments then flips them.

This is what they did at The Metropolitan and one of the reasons they won't be seeking public assistance, as any TIF money comes with strings about selling. You can sell, but you have to return most the incentives.

So, there is no combining the two proposals. What could happen is that Bomasada builds taller on the land the city doesn't own but they don't do that either, because once you go beyond 6 stories you can't really use wood framing and steel is way more expensive and likely outside their experience. But they could just buid fewer units; something like Mosaic.


BTW, this isn't a "branch bank and parking garage". It's a truly mixed-use project with incorporated parking, something must have been lobbying for. The design is just preliminary and will be tweeked.

There are hundreds of open spots near downtown that could accommodate the type of housing Bomasada is proposing. Why does it need to be on a very high-profile intersection directly adjacent to the CBD? Especially with no commercial element at all.

^^^I do not disagree. Just saying since housing was incorporated into one of the two proposals and it's on my mind, It would be great to have the Mixed use development also incorporate housing, not necessarily literally combining these two exact proposals.

^^^I do not disagree. Just saying since housing was incorporated into one of the two proposals and it's on my mind, It would be great to have the Mixed use development also incorporate housing, not necessarily literally combining these two exact proposals.

Yep! Agreed.

It would be nice to see significant height added here, but with land costs still ignorantly cheap (comparatively speaking) height won't be coming downtown for a while.

if i had to choose between this being residential or commercial.. i'm going to go for the commercial proposal, because we need to start getting something in CBD that is actually open after 5, and on weekends. but i am with others, that if we can get something that has both residential and commercial, then i think that's the golden proposal

Best way to keep things open late in City Center is more residents!

Best way to keep things open late in City Center is more residents!

Yes, but very few CBD's have big blocks of apartments. They are usually in the periphery with easy access to cultural attractions and events.

I worked in downtown LA and it was a ghost town in the evenings and on weekends, even though there were tons of living units all around.

Downtown would not be at all disadvantaged if the apartments were built a few blocks away.

Best way to keep things open late in City Center is more residents!

I agree, the more residential the better. Downtown Charlotte & Austin are prime examples of how residents in the City Center is a +.

Everyone would be cheering at residential units in this spot if it was taller. But now we are back to advocating for us to have a Central Business District and a ring of residential around it? Interesting.

Yes, but very few CBD's have big blocks of apartments. They are usually in the periphery with easy access to cultural attractions and events.

I worked in downtown LA and it was a ghost town in the evenings and on weekends, even though there were tons of living units all around.

Downtown would not be at all disadvantaged if the apartments were built a few blocks away.

denver has tons of apt very close to their CBD

denver has tons of apt very close to their CBD

Close and in are 2 completely different things.

OKC has tons of apartments close to the CBD, too. And this would be close if it was still in Deep Deuce or several other of our urban districts.


My central point is that these apartments could go anywhere near the CBD, it doesn't have to be on a major commercial thoroughfare which it completely ignores.

denver has tons of apt very close to their CBD

As does Austin

denver has tons of apt very close to their CBD

And over the last year or so we've seen a lot of CBD places spring up next to our CBD.

So, you ARE clearly advocating for the Rose Rock proposal of a parking garage + offices on top, and for separate CBD and residential neighborhoods.

BTW, there are LOTS of other sites in the immediate area where we can also put this size parking garage and offices on. If there is this separate demand, I hope which ever one loses goes ahead with one of the alternate sites. We have so many to choose from. Apartments would do well at the Dolese site. The curved garage would do well at the curved street at 11th and Broadway where the little convenience store is. Or maybe at the surface lot W of the Uhaul building.

I am counter-balancing arguments already put forth, not advocating.

And not saying the residential needs to be separate from the CBD, just that this location is less important to apartments with no commercial element at all vs. one that is completely commercial.

It would be far easier to make the apartments work elsewhere, which is clearly demonstrated by Bomasada's other OKC location (which they subsequently sold) in OKC.

If the apartment project would add a couple floors + and put commercial on the ground level it would be much more appealing. Let's see their real proposal.

If the apartment project would add a couple floors + and put commercial on the ground level it would be much more appealing. Let's see their real proposal.

That is their proposal. It was a formal response to the RFP and will be judged by what they submitted, complete with detailed financials.

Final design review would be at a later stage if either project is chosen.

15208

This structure is in Uptown Dallas, one of my favorites, and reminds me of the Rose Rock proposal (wavy metal covered parking and limestone). I understand why people would want residential but the Bomasada proposal is not design appropriate for the CBD.

Yes, but very few CBD's have big blocks of apartments. They are usually in the periphery with easy access to cultural attractions and events.

I worked in downtown LA and it was a ghost town in the evenings and on weekends, even though there were tons of living units all around.

Downtown would not be at all disadvantaged if the apartments were built a few blocks away.
This is not the case anymore. Downtown LA sure isn’t New York City But it’s getting more lively with each passing year With a plethora of high-rise residential projects under construction or in the works.

^

Right, but I when I worked down there, there were still way, way more housing units than what OKC now has in the core and it was still extremely dead.

In summary:

NO reason we coudn't have BOTH proposals - just that at THIS location in the CBD we need to focus on commercial interaction.

- The residential proposal has no retail component so it should be a NON-Starter at THIS location; elsewhere in downtown like Midtown or just dont the street in AA - PERFECT. It'd be even better if they'd build taller and had commercial on the bottom, then it'd be appropriate for this location but since they aren't, they should be out a little.

- The commercial proposal is idea for the CBD because it has a parking garage incorporated with offices on top and retail along the streetfront. THIS is urban design at its best and is typical of CBD development. This is a no brainer that it belongs in the CBD or near it. I say near it because of the low height, it actually would make a nice transition just outside the CBD and save this block for a 20+ storey tower. Ideally I'd love for this proposal to incorporate residential above the commercial which would be PERFECT for this location. Hopefully it could win and there be incentive for such a mixed use addition getting us a nice tower on this site.

In summary:

NO reason we coudn't have BOTH proposals - just that at THIS location in the CBD we need to focus on commercial interaction.

- The residential proposal has no retail component so it should be a NON-Starter at THIS location; elsewhere in downtown like Midtown or just dont the street in AA - PERFECT. It'd be even better if they'd build taller and had commercial on the bottom, then it'd be appropriate for this location but since they aren't, they should be out a little.

- The commercial proposal is idea for the CBD because it has a parking garage incorporated with offices on top and retail along the streetfront. THIS is urban design at its best and is typical of CBD development. This is a no brainer that it belongs in the CBD or near it. I say near it because of the low height, it actually would make a nice transition just outside the CBD and save this block for a 20+ storey tower. Ideally I'd love for this proposal to incorporate residential above the commercial which would be PERFECT for this location. Hopefully it could win and there be incentive for such a mixed use addition getting us a nice tower on this site.

Might be 20 years before a 20+ story residential tower gets built in OKC. Is it worth sitting empty that long?

yes, its in the original CBD core.

If the Bomasda development had put something, ANYTHING that could bring the public into the building at 4th and EKG, it would be a development that the city should consider. I don't think it would have been very hard to beat the Rose Rock development with a little bit more thought, but the actual site plan provided shows that they have zero interest in anything but a quick flip on the land.

Also to Pete's super important point: This is going to be a stick build apartment complex. The city, if it rejects both of these developments, would be wise to deny any "stick" based construction. That can go into some of these up and coming districts, but is really inappropriate between the tracks, Walker, 4th, and Reno.

I don't think it would be hard for the Bomasada to add a retail component to the development. But again, I don't understand why people are so big on having retail. If you don't have businesses to fill those commercial spaces, then what is the point? Bomasada is not a commercial development company, they are in the business of building apartments. I myself prefer the Bomasada proposal & hope it wins out.

^

Bomasada is in the business of building apartments, getting a complex leased-up, then selling to an investor.

Exacty what they did at the Metropolitan. They had it on the market not very long after it was completed.

I don't think it would be hard for the Bomasada to add a retail component to the development. But again, I don't understand why people are so big on having retail. If you don't have businesses to fill those commercial spaces, then what is the point? Bomasada is not a commercial development company, they are in the business of building apartments. I myself prefer the Bomasada proposal & hope it wins out.

Why prefer a proposal that is not respectful of its surrounding architecture? Im not saying that the Rose Rock proposal has neoclassicism architecture like the old Oklahoman Building across the street, but at least its using similar material (limestone) to connect with its surrounding buildings.

^

Bomasada is in the business of building apartments, getting a complex leased-up, then selling to an investor.

Exacty what they did at the Metropolitan. They had it on the market not very long after it was completed.

As long as they build quality appropriate projects, there is nothing wrong with that. They bring risk money into the city. Seems like everyone on here likes the Metropolitan and it did give impetus to an area that needed significant investment.

I'm not saying they are the automatic developers of this new spot, but the fact that they develop, create value, and move on should not automatically be cast as a negative.

Regardless of how that practice is regarded, it is a marked difference between the two competing developers.

Why prefer a proposal that is not respectful of its surrounding architecture? Im not saying that the Rose Rock proposal has neoclassicism architecture like the old Oklahoman Building across the street, but at least its using similar material (limestone) to connect with its surrounding buildings.

how do you know that bomasada wouldnt' be respectfull to the surrounding architecture?? we have no idea what their building would look like

how do you know that bomasada wouldnt' be respectfull to the surrounding architecture?? we have no idea what their building would look like

Yes we do... there are two design choices.

Yes we do... there are two design choices.

they didn't present any image of thier building at all ....... only a site plan .. we have no idea what it would look like

15214

You should be able to see it visually based on the information they have given... they have given two renders showing two different design choices. They both are not aesthetically appropriate for the location (CBD).

15214

You should be able to see it visually based on the information they have given... they have given two renders showing two different design choices. They both are not aesthetically appropriate for the location (CBD).

ok what does it look like then? what materials are they using ? what color will it be?

Based on the renders provided, both these structures will look similar to what is happening at West Village. These structures aren’t designed to be placed in the CBD. If you find West Village architecturally pleasing then you won’t see that both of the Bomasada proposals ( and West Village) are not appropriate for its location. We are in the CBD not a suburb. The design/material should be either glass or masonry IMO

Based on the renders provided, both these structures will look similar to what is happening at West Village. These structures aren’t designed to be placed in the CBD. If you find West Village architecturally pleasing then you won’t see that both of the Bomasada proposals ( and West Village) are not appropriate for its location. We are in the CBD not a suburb. The design/material should be either glass or masonry IMO


which is the pervue of the DDRC and OCURA to make sure the look of the building is correct .. although with the building across the street i doubt they would be very successfull

they didn't present any image of thier building at all ....... only a site plan .. we have no idea what it would look like

The fact that they didn't bother to present an image of their building should weigh against them.

https://newsok.com/article/5630038/new-renderings-animation-for-nw-4-and-e.k.-gaylord-proposals

https://newsok.com/article/5630038/new-renderings-animation-for-nw-4-and-e.k.-gaylord-proposals

So exactly how we all imagined it.

I just don't see how anyone could get behind the Bomasda development on that parcel...

I don't know, the Rose Rock design doesn't look that great either, & it leaves the eastside of the parcel empty.

Not too really happy about either as far as design standards go, but would rather see the Bomasada development.