I'm sure its been discussed but its probably easier to get financing for rent buildings vs condos. Rent will always bring in money to the developer/owner. The condos are a one time sale then it's off their hands. Much more high risk/high reward. I know that's a simple way to look at it but its fairly accurate.

That's certainly the case right now where there are plenty of quality comps for rentals. As the for-sale market continues to grow and starts to stabilize, the financing for those projects should become easier to fit "inside the box" for most banks.

I'm sure its been discussed but its probably easier to get financing for rent buildings vs condos. Rent will always bring in money to the developer/owner. The condos are a one time sale then it's off their hands. Much more high risk/high reward. I know that's a simple way to look at it but its fairly accurate.

And a lot of these get built and are almost immediately sold off to REITs or other investment firms.

Even in a hot market, for condos to get built there has to be a high level of pre-sales.

The Civic is a recent example of this. You can't build condos and just hope you find buyers... You have to have at least 50% of the units pre-sold with hard deposits.

Apartments are simply about extrapolating rents and running spreadsheets.

That's the thing too. Most of a condo tower would probably turn into rental units anyway. I have a friend in Chicago who is living in a large condo building where 80% are rentals and the owners live out of state. They just bought up plenty of units in presale then just rented them. I would probably do that as well if one were to be built here.

That's the thing too. Most of a condo tower would probably turn into rental units anyway. I have a friend in Chicago who is living in a large condo building where 80% are rentals and the owners live out of state. They just bought up plenty of units in presale then just rented them. I would probably do that as well if one were to be built here.

This has already occurred with a large number of units in DT OKC. Block42, Maywood Lofts, and Central Avenue VIllas - are all invaded by tenants that are renting from the owners who live elsewhere. And I think the number keeps climbing because rental rates are higher than mortgage rates, easiest profit ever since these buildings are all fairly new and have little to no maintenance costs.

One issue that is arising right now, is these places have HOAs and basically the owners (who don't live there) vote against general improvements and other cost-bearing items. Thus, owners who actually live in their units are really getting the bad end of the deal.

Generally speaking, an HOA will try and limit the number of rentals in a condo complex. If for nothing else, FHA won't underwrite mortgages on condos with more than 50% of their units as rentals. Most HOAs I am familiar with will try and keep it lower than that.

Some people are just a fan of highrises. That includes me. I've lived in highrises for 10 years. If I moved out of where I am, I'd be more likely to pick another highrise if one is available. Also, I can absolutely afford to buy. But I don't want to. I am a renter and will be for the foreseeable future. Lifestyle choice that I'm fine by.

Believe it or not, I too like high-rises and would love to see more in CBD.

Hopefully, this one can be hugely successful as we're all predicting and OKC can get on a wave of high-rise apartment tower construction. As has been said, I also think OKC is a little bit late to the game on this but hopefully this will show how big of a city OKC is and we can get a residential high-rise boom going in downtown AND in the NW Business District (again).

as the previous few posters indicated, there is a high number of millennials who prefer the rent a high-rise apartment lifestyle, image, and convenience. Add in the seniors and i think this is a severe market desert in Oklahoma City that hopefully will turn around and see 5 or so significant high-rises. While I prefer there to be some diversity in heights, I'm moreso looking for there to be quality, well positioned high-rises to expand the CBD, take advantage of views, and expand the frontage offerings along the street.

Honestly, this has been the case in nearly every city that has built a light rail, subway, and/or streetcar so I'd expect no less in my hometown, Oklahoma City - which WILL turn around those rooftop numbers and get the retail boom we're all looking for.

The market is very skewed towards high-end 'for purchase' units right now. Millennials getting into the swing of their careers and paying off student loan debts are the same ones spending the most money downtown. They would love to live downtown and buy. But it isn't feasible when everything down there is $300-500K. So renting for $1200 a month instead is much easier. Then once these young adults can finally afford a house with saving, they opt for the $150K bang-for-buck suburban homes in N OKC and south Edmond. What we need is this same price point on the downtown scale. So we are talking units that are like 6-800 sq feet. Minimalism is easy to sell to this age group.

The Civic is the first thing downtown for sale that isn't out-of-reach for that generation. Unfortunately, it is in a not-so-desirable part of downtown at this time. If OKC can get some multi-family row homes and highrises in and around Bricktown and Deep Deuce that can score this price point of $150-200K units, you will see them scooped up left and right.

The market is very skewed towards high-end 'for purchase' units right now. Millennials getting into the swing of their careers and paying off student loan debts are the same ones spending the most money downtown. They would love to live downtown and buy. But it isn't feasible when everything down there is $300-500K. So renting for $1200 a month instead is much easier. Then once these young adults can finally afford a house with saving, they opt for the $150K bang-for-buck suburban homes in N OKC and south Edmond. What we need is this same price point on the downtown scale. So we are talking units that are like 6-800 sq feet. Minimalism is easy to sell to this age group.

The Civic is the first thing downtown for sale that isn't out-of-reach for that generation. Unfortunately, it is in a not-so-desirable part of downtown at this time. If OKC can get some multi-family row homes and highrises in and around Bricktown and Deep Deuce that can score this price point of $150-200K units, you will see them scooped up left and right.

Good points but you will be hard pressed to find an urban developer who will build a $150-200k product when the cost to produce a product in the $350-400k range is probably less than an additional $50k and will sell nearly as quickly. There is always a "sweet spot" for an area and while a few may try to test the upper limits, virtually nobody dangles near the floor.

WDG of Dallas is the architect and they've recently done a 17-story residential building in Dallas that looks to be pretty similar:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/taylor.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/taylor2.jpg

I'd live there

WDG of Dallas is the architect and they've recently done a 17-story residential building in Dallas that looks to be pretty similar:

1997 called...

1997 called...

LOL so true.

1997 called...

What am I missing here?

I'm guessing some feel like the architectural style is reminiscent of buildings built in the late 90's? *shrugs* If it looks anything like the pictures in Pete's post of that building in Dallas, I'd still call that a win. It doesn't have to look ultramodern to be a very positive benefit for the area, if built like the proposed plan - and that building in Dallas is far from ugly.

1997 called...

What? That building looks very good. Doesn't look outdated in the least. I think that same style would actually work well on that lot because it has some similar colors of Deep Deuce Brownstones, the brick pulls in some Bricktown, the altitude of the CBD, and the glass areas tie in well to the new Sandridge building and Braniff building. I think that same building would be a perfect tie in between those 3 districts.

What? That building looks very good. Doesn't look outdated in the least. I think that same style would actually work well on that lot because it has some similar colors of Deep Deuce Brownstones, the brick pulls in some Bricktown, the altitude of the CBD, and the glass areas tie in well to the new Sandridge building and Braniff building. I think that same building would be a perfect tie in between those 3 districts.

Yeah I'm confused too. There are apartment/condo buildings that look similar to this going up in Dallas, Denver, Austin, Nashville, etc. Not sure how these look dated? As long as the retail being proposed on the ground level is included, I'd say this is definitely a win.

1997 called...

That building looks pretty modern to me although I liked the Clayco building better.

I don't love the colors, but on second glance it isn't too bad.

Definitions for a mid-rise vary, but are generally no less than six stories and no more than 18 stories high. Taken from a previous Oklahoman article by Steve Lackmeyer--Published: April 23, 2016 12:00 AM CDT.

Now we've got something to work with as plans move forward on this development. :wink:

What's the status of this project?

i hope this is still a go. pretty excited about this project!

Still in the works, but don't expect anything to happen here soon.

I'm sure they will be asking for a bunch of TIF money.

WDG of Dallas is the architect and they've recently done a 17-story residential building in Dallas that looks to be pretty similar:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/taylor.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/taylor2.jpg


This is a very unique site for OKC, as the place where North Broadway comes into the downtown core. I have always dreamed about what this site could be, so I hope the development that happens isn't just any project from any street corner in Uptown Dallas, like the above.

What's a nice project for Dallas or Charlotte isn't necessarily a nice project for every site in OKC... just food for thought for everyone who's defending what we've seen so far. Nobody is saying it isn't nice... it just isn't "right."

The Chamber Forum thing wasn't right, either. Hence why the forces that be didn't bring it to fruition.

This project needs to interact first and foremost with the beautiful OPUBCO Bldg, secondly with the beautiful AT&T Bldg, and thirdly with the current dead zone along EK Gaylord.

It seems like everything including small projects from LEVEL to Journal Record are getting significant amounts of TIF dollars. It stands to reason that bolder investments deserve more TIF than a simple LEVEL or LIFT (multi-family money machines) is getting. However, in exchange for all of this public subsidy, the design had better incorporate public input.

http://skyrisecities.com/news/2016/11/times-square-okc-transformative-project-oklahoma-city

That's shockingly inaccurate. I guess it is the first NC deal in the narrowly defined 6-block CBD core, but several adaptive reuse deals have added the residential density that that guy claims this deal is the first in 50 years. City Place and the Carnegie off the top of my head...

Like that something is getting built here. Long overdue. Still hate the name. Why can't these projects come up with something half way original? Not a name borrowed from some other big city and not a name that has Oklahoma in it.

They have already said they are not planning to keep the Times Square name.

After looking at the rendering again, I think I'd like it more if the orientation of the building was different - perhaps if it curved more with EK Gaylord. It sort of looks like it sits weirdly on that lot with too much wasted space.

WDG Architecture has another project on their board called Clarendon West that has the kind of curve I'm thinking of.

They have already said they are not planning to keep the Times Square name.

I guess their going by the fact that The Oklahoman and Times used to be in the building there at 4th. That seems to be a tenuous connection just so they can name it Times Square. The Oklahoman is the more well known newspaper here and The Times hasn't been published in over 30 years.

That's shockingly inaccurate. I guess it is the first NC deal in the narrowly defined 6-block CBD core, but several adaptive reuse deals have added the residential density that that guy claims this deal is the first in 50 years. City Place and the Carnegie off the top of my head...
City Place and Carnegie were remodels of existing buildings and were both built long ago... So I believe it is accurate.

Any updates on this project? Haven't heard anything in while, like a year & a half.

Nothing is going to happen here anytime soon.

How disappointing. Is the above proposed plan still in the works, just in a holding pattern for now, or is this project officially dead?

How disappointing. Is the above proposed plan still in the works, just in a holding pattern for now, or is this project officially dead?

I think you're mistaking the proposed plan with the referenced work done by this developer in Dallas.

I think you're mistaking the proposed plan with the referenced work done by this developer in Dallas.

No, Pete put the proposal for this development up here in Post #177 and #180:

Will be posting the info and plans in chunks, then will ultimately consolidate:


Project Summary

In response to the redevelopment vision and other stated goals outlined in the RFP dated May 9th, 2016 for approximately 1 acre located at Gaylord and NW 4th, Precor Ruffin and Landrun Commercial (LRPR) propose to construct a mixed use project consisting of a residential tower, adjacent retail/commercial building and complementary parking garage. This development is part of an overall plan that consists of about 3 acres of which LRPC owns 2 acres.

The proposed plan contained herein is subject to modification depending on market conditions as they may evolve but initially consist of the following:

327 residential units
36,500 SF of commercial space: 10,500 sq.ft. within the tower and a 26,000 sq.ft. pad site (pad site able to accommodate a 2‐story retail/commercial building for 52,000 square feet if market conditions warrant).
712 space parking garage (plus an additional 45 surface parks); total parking spaces provided is 757.

The total cost of the Project is anticipated to be approximately $100 million. Based on the financial projections included with this proposal, the developer anticipates the need for approximately $10 million of assistance via tax increment financing (“TIF”) provided by the City of Oklahoma City.

The development team includes LRPR as developer, WDG architects of Dallas, and GE Johnson (“GEJ”) as the general contractor.


Site Summary
Total site area consists of 2.97 acres. LRPR acquired the easternmost 1.93 acres in September of 2014 with the intent of unifying this parcel with the westernmost 1.04 acres; the subject of this RFP (Parcel A).

In addition, there are 2 additional parcels that the developer seeks to secure for the purpose of completing the project contemplated herein (see site map that follows):
Parcel B: .16‐acre former street right‐of‐way for NW 3rd for the purpose of creating a plaza complementing the commercial area occupying the south 1/2 of the site.
Parcel C: .34‐acre parcel situated on the south side of NW 3rd and east of Gaylord; this site’s intended use is an off premise project marquee sign.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/times1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/times2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/times3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/times4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/times5.jpg

This 1.83 acre plot is now for sale for $5.46 million.

Listing also says they will do a ground lease or build-to-suit.

Guess this thing is dead then.

Guess we don't know Rainey Williams or Jonathan Russell. lol

If you “don’t know” every developer / investor who tried to make a deal happen that ended up not happening,then you wouldnt know any of them.

Exactly, every developer has "definitely gonna happen" deals fall apart. Too bad it was this one though.

If you “don’t know” every developer / investor who tried to make a deal happen that ended up not happening,then you wouldnt know any of them.
It was a joke. Lighten up, Francis.

Rover lighten up? lmao

I took it as a joke. Now Lmao too at the sensitivity on this board. Guess I’m too old to worry about being a member of the club.

Exactly, every developer has "definitely gonna happen" deals fall apart. Too bad it was this one though.

I never really cared for much about this design. Looked kinda ugly to me. I don't think the high rise market in OKC is quite ready to take off yet. Everybody is going to wait and see how First National does. If it's a big success, then you'll start getting serious interest in building another skyscraper for housing. It will prove the demand is there.

Another thing holding these back is that there's still a lot of available land in the core, and 4-5 story apartment buildings are still very profitable. It's cheaper and easier to build those, gives a great return on investment, and they want to get it while the getting is good.

The rendering doesn't seem to fit OKC, but I was looking more at the Fort Worth model. First National will be spectacular when finished, although it's too grand for my taste. When I lived in the ATL I paid $3200 a month for something that resembled the Metropolitan. Only difference is that it was a modern mid-rise with a balcony and a view. I think OKC is missing out big time

This land is now up for sale by Land Run:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/4thekg111218.jpg

They must have realized just how much the land value would increase due to proximity to the cock ring.

They must have realized just how much the land value would increase due to proximity to the cock ring.

And the proximity to the streetcar line... I am sure there is a ring and string joke there somewhere...

This land is now up for sale by Land Run:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/4thekg111218.jpg

How much was this land originally purchased for?

OPUBCO sold it to a Sandridge affiliate (4th street properties llc) in 2012 for $1.97MM. 4th street properties sold it for $2.9MM in 2014 to "Times Square OKC LLC".

Couple twin highrises would look nice there.

OPUBCO sold it to a Sandridge affiliate (4th street properties llc) in 2012 for $1.97MM. 4th street properties sold it for $2.9MM in 2014 to "Times Square OKC LLC".

And now they wanna double their money, simply because they put up a piece of wood with a drawing to pretend like they were actually doing something with the property. Oh and because the city laid a street car rail on their front door. Lol, some developers in this town seriously are delusional and rarely have their feet held to the fire for their "Snake Oil" salesman tactics. Especially this particular one. But hey, that's my personal opinion from my personal experience, lol. :dontgetit

And now they wanna double their money, simply because they put up a piece of wood with a drawing to pretend like they were actually doing something with the property. Oh and because the city laid a street car rail on their front door. Lol, some developers in this town seriously are delusional and rarely have their feet held to the fire for their "Snake Oil" salesman tactics. Especially this particular one. But hey, that's my personal opinion from my personal experience, lol. :dontgetit

Same people. As The Rise, correct?

All those wanting more tall buildings should welcome the escalation. If they get the asking price it means demand is significantly escalating. It also means that it needs more floors on top of it to repay the high land cost. And, most developers, speculators don’t let millions in capital and/or credit laying around not producing income, so they are incentivized to build or move it to someone.

Just yards away on the other side of the traintracks in Deep Deuce, the Brownstone lots (.042 acres) go for 150-175K for a residence to be built. Here you are talking about 1.83 acres of desirable commercial/residential land that has insanely valuable proximity to the streetcar and street accessibility. Using the Brownstone land value applied to EKG/4th, the lot should be listed over $6.5 million.

Obviously commercial/residential comparison isn't apples and apples, but if anything it proves the land in this localized area is up there with the most valuable in the city.

Same people. As The Rise, correct?

Correct, which was a great project they completed. Otherwise, it seems they are playing the speculating game downtown. They have the building on 6th next to the railroad that has been for sale for maybe 3 years now, hasnt sold and the price only goes up. Same for this 4th St. property and the one they just picked up on the corner of 6th and Broadway. Dont expect much to happen except for sale signs going up with big asking prices.

And now they wanna double their money, simply because they put up a piece of wood with a drawing to pretend like they were actually doing something with the property. Oh and because the city laid a street car rail on their front door. Lol, some developers in this town seriously are delusional and rarely have their feet held to the fire for their "Snake Oil" salesman tactics. Especially this particular one. But hey, that's my personal opinion from my personal experience, lol. :dontgetit

Out of curiosity (seriously, cause I don't know anything about the development world other than what I read on here) who would hold their feet to the fire and how?