OMG This is SO TRUE.

A couple of things in response to this conversation.

I work for a very high tech oilfield software company and a couple of observations of the last couple from the last couple of years directly apply here:

1) Those oil company office tower jobs ARE NOT COMING BACK. Modern E&P companies have a TINY permanent office work force, Echo is actually a really good example. Modern production companies mostly consist of a minimal staff of specialists, geologists, tech / data science people, and finance people that are crazy good at what they do. They get venture capital backing, buy existing assets, optimize, improve production prove reserves and then SELL, shut down the operation, start it again under a new name or the same name with a number after it and repeat the cycle. A lot of their field operations may be outsourced or on a contractor basis and many of them may only last a few years before the divest and repeat action. Some get to be pretty big, but not like Devon big. Also, the vast majority are located in other markets with better VC access, like Houston or Denver. Most of them look like software startups more than oil companies and their offices reflect that too. It's a wildly different world in E&P and honestly companies like Chesapeake kicked it off and in the process kind of became dinosaurs themselves.

2) LOL at the idea of filling those towers with tech jobs. Software companies are small-medium sized for the most part and pay very very well, they follow talent, not cheap real estate (many don't even need real estate). As someone who works for a company trying to hire developers and other tech professionals constantly in OKC, the talent base is literally not here. Our University programs are pretty out of date by the standards of modern software companies and there just isn't the kind of intellectual infrastructure here to support a large tech operation. I mean, my company is pretty small, and we hire every qualified dev in Oklahoma we can find, but like 2/3 of our dev force is out of state or even the country. OKC is a LONG way off of having a nationally significant tech economy, a lot of the people that are good that work in it now are remote employees working for out of state companies, likely got their education out of state and either returned home for cheap living or to follow a spouse or partner (or raise kids).

Honestly the big vacancies downtown may be one of OKC's trickiest problems to solve.

I'd like to see Oklahoma City University get serious about High Tech as it's a natural fit IMO for Oklahoma given it's central city location, large international student population, and lots of land for building(s). This is also where an expanded community college presence could come in handy, making affordable (if not free) classes in STEM available to those who can't get into university. Then partner with OKC based tech companies and voila!

I really wish OCU would get serious on High Tech and the city would build another OCCC campus downtown - would do wonders for OKC's profile and commitment to academics.

I would be stunned if OCU invested heavily in tech anytime soon, the arts programs are what's really thriving there AFAIK.

Tech companies are drawn to centers of education and many are start-ups that come from high-level colleges.

Until we invest in education we are always going to lag in tech.

Honestly I don’t believe this state will ever invest in education. Hate to say it but that is hard to argue with. The GOP religious nuts and gun freaks who run the state don’t want an educated populace. The chamber types still think tax breaks and right to work and lawsuit reform are going to make us the next Austin. Not happening without education.

Not strictly high tech as it is mixed with the arts, but OCU just invested quite a bit in a new game development program that is looking quite promising.

Doesn't OCCC have a campus in Capitol Hill? What programs are offered there and doesn't that get us close enough to Downtown? OCU Law is downtown along with the UCO ACM, for what that is worth.

UCO has been expanding their downtown offerings past just just ACM.

https://downtown.uco.edu/

Not really a technical program at the moment, but as time goes by I wouldn't be surprised if it grows from the current course offerings.

Two proposals vie for key downtown parcel


Two developers have submitted proposals to develop the highly-visible 3.3 acres at NW 4th and E.K. Gaylord in downtown Oklahoma City.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/4thekg120319b.jpg


The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority had previously sought submissions for about half the property, but after being unsatisfied with the options, the city purchased the adjacent 1.8 acres for $4.4 million in November, then published a new request for proposal for the entire parcel.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/

The following is taken directly from the respective submissions.


Alley's End


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend1.jpg

The conceptual theme for Alley’s End Apartments is “sustainable artist development.” The surrounding offices, banks, parking structures and adjacent YMCA are heavily used facilities with high volumes of traffic. Our design will enhance and strengthen the surrounding area through creative site placement of three additional buildings, associated parking, creative new pedestrian zones and plazas, complete with public art. The proposed mixed use structures will be constructed with an appropriate five-story building incorporating a brick and metal panel facade. This concept promotes the pedestrian experience with plazas and urban canyons while incorporating micro-retail, dense residential. This design also features a secure parking garage, adjacent to the railroad tracks. This serves multiple purposes such as relief from traffic congestion, sound buffering, and an extra level of security for the residents and visitors.

The ground floor is designed to activate E.K. Gaylord Boulevard by strategically placing pedestrian corridors and plazas throughout the development. It will also create a bookend destination for Automobile Alley by becoming Alley’s End. Pedestrian boulevards are located around the envelope of the building while performance plazas, courtyards and micro-retail spaces are within the promenade. Those retail spaces enhance the street level activation and engage the strategically designed artistic performance and exhibition plazas throughout the development. The proposed design allows for ever changing art and performance, thus creating a destination rather than infill.

PHASED DEVELOPMENT & MIXED INCOME HOUSING APPROACH
This proposal considers a phased construction approach consisting of two phases. Both phases will incorporate a mixed-income approach to housing. Phase 1 will have 168 total apartment units spread over two five-story buildings, and 15,000 SF of ground floor retail. Of these 168 total units, we propose 128 affordable units at or below 60% of AMI. The remaining 40 units would be market rate. Also, included in Phase 1 will be a single parking deck that will have 100 parking spaces. Incorporating this amount of affordable housing allows us to promote affordable rent rates for artists and others in the 60% and below AMI range.

Phase 2 will include the construction of another five-story building abutting 4th Street. It will incorporate 110 additional units. Phase 2 will also be a mixed-income development, with 70 affordable units and 40 market rate apartments. Additionally, more parking will likely be constructed to accommodate additional site parking needs.

The phased construction approach is a more conservative development approach that will help to ensure the success of the entire development. This approach allows proper absorption of housing units and retail space before starting on the 2nd phase. It also allows Phase 1 to finish more quickly so as the site is not under construction for an extended period of time.

To help accomplish the goals of this conceptual project, we have enlisted the assistance of the American Covenant Housing Foundation. This non-profit organization develops and manages low to moderate income housing complexes nationwide. They currently have properties in eight states.

Rose Rock Development and American Covenant Housing Foundation will work as a JV development group, and will be structured as a non-profit development entity.

FSB are the architects.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend5.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend6.jpg





Milhaus


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/milhaus4th1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/milhaus4th2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/milhaus4th3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/milhaus4th4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/milhaus4th5.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/milhaus4th6.jpg

Wow! I love the Alley's End concept and how many of these units are below-market rate.

The first one looks fantastic

Note that Bomasada, the company that submitted a proposal for the full property the first time around, did not apply.

Bomasada is the group from Houston that developed The Metropolitan. They originally had a deal with Jonathon Russell to buy his property and include it in with the city land. But once Russell sold to the city so they could seek development of the entire tract, they obviously withdrew.

Milhaus developed The Lift and once had a small staff here to pursue other projects, but later folded their tent and moved their personnel.

Also, the main difference between the two responses is that Alley's End incorporates retail/commercial where Milhaus only offers housing, which is similar to Bomasada's original proposal.

I like Alley's End but the project needs to be taller near the intersection. The previous proposal was 8 stories - this one should be as well.'Pete - what happened to the bank that was going in the previous iteration?

Do we just not have a market for mid-rise/high-rise residential development? With the population on the rise you would think we would start seeing some movement. The regency tower is the only high-rise residential building dt, and even though they have done a lot of remodeling, it's still outdated. Great proposals, but was really hoping for something bigger, especially with this location.

Alley's End is definitely the winner of the two, in my view... though I wish it came out to the corner a little more, and wish there was more of a prominent office component to the plan more like the previous Rose Rock proposal. But even so, Alley's End is definitely a winner. Milhaus's proposal, while containing more units overall, is just incredibly generic and boring and not a downtown-quality project in my personal view.

Alley's End is the better proposal. It almost seems too good to be true, though. How are they going to make 71% affordable housing work?

Milhaus, if I recall correctly, had a high-rise proposal for the Stage Center lot that looked infinitely better than what they've proposed here. Their proposal could be plopped down anywhere.But to echo skanaly's question - is there no market? Could they not add office or a hotel or move some of the units to the intersection to give it a poor man's Flatiron Building feel? Developers are allowed to build housing above 5 stories.

Alley's Edge is cool, but do we really need a building shaped in the letters VD across the street from COKC ring?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend1.jpg

Milhaus, if I recall correctly, had a high-rise proposal for the Stage Center lot that looked infinitely better than what they've proposed here. Their proposal could be plopped down anywhere.But to echo skanaly's question - is there no market? Could they not add office or a hotel or move some of the units to the intersection to give it a poor man's Flatiron Building feel? Developers are allowed to build housing above 5 stories.

Most people my age (late 20's early 30's) that I know are getting to the point of wanting families, and wanting a yard. Granted, I am not a great sample, but maybe you are right about the market for high-rise housing just not being there. I think it will come, but might be closer to the park and the CC. I like Alley's End for what it is. I wish it were 2 or 3 stories taller, but the project itself looks great!

Do we just not have a market for mid-rise/high-rise residential development? With the population on the rise you would think we would start seeing some movement. The regency tower is the only high-rise residential building dt, and even though they have done a lot of remodeling, it's still outdated. Great proposals, but was really hoping for something bigger, especially with this location.


Correct. There is no market for a mid rise or high rise residential development. It just too tough to make the economics works right now. These type of projects, though, are what will ultimate lead to the creation of that market as more people choose to make downtown their home. Creating that market also requires making downtown a livable destination instead of the ghost town paradise of parking garages it’s slowly becoming.

mid-rise infill > high-rise infill for OKC, IMHO. There is so much infill needed that I'd much rather see three 6 floor structures than one 18 floor one.

I love Alley's End. It would really bridge the gap between downtown and Deep Deuce as much as is possible with the rail in between.

mid-rise infill > high-rise infill for OKC, IMHO. There is so much infill needed that I'd much rather see three 6 floor structures than one 18 floor one.

I love Alley's End. It would really bridge the gap between downtown and Deep Deuce as much as is possible with the rail in between.

"ALLEY'S END?" I like the design better than the alternative but can these people please hire some branding experts? Geez. How embarrassing. THERE ISN'T EVEN AN ALLEY THERE.

"ALLEY'S END?" I like the design better than the alternative but can these people please hire some branding experts? Geez. How embarrassing. THERE ISN'T EVEN AN ALLEY THERE.

It’s at the end of Automobile Alley....

Alley's End, please and thank you.


mid-rise infill > high-rise infill for OKC, IMHO. There is so much infill needed that I'd much rather see three 6 floor structures than one 18 floor one.

Amen.

The milhaus one is completely uninspiring. I wish one of them would have (I know the city wouldn't have gone for it) proposed building over 3rd Street and incorporating the smaller bit of land.

Alley's Edge is cool, but do we really need a building shaped in the letters VD across the street from COKC ring?



Sounds like the beginnings of an exciting new OKC district!



Seriously though, the milhous proposal is so uninspired that you could set anything next to it and it would look great. They both feature way to many street facing blank walls.

Alley's Edge is cool, but do we really need a building shaped in the letters VD across the street from COKC ring?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend1.jpg

OMG i about died laughing at this...HAHAHAHAHAHA

Do we just not have a market for mid-rise/high-rise residential development? With the population on the rise you would think we would start seeing some movement. The regency tower is the only high-rise residential building dt, and even though they have done a lot of remodeling, it's still outdated. Great proposals, but was really hoping for something bigger, especially with this location.

It doesn’t seem that there are not enough people here willing to pay what it costs to do mid/high-rise residential. The numbers don’t work. This is a value driven market, not an amenities one.

Milhaus doesn’t seem to really want this.... not with that basic cookie cutter proposal. Any new arch school graduate could design that proposal quickly and without thought. They look to be going through the motions so they keep themselves in the city eye, but not bold enough to actually compete.

It's simple math.

You cannot charge enough rent to offset construction costs for new high-rise. And that's a direct byproduct of our affordable housing market; people aren't going to pay the associated premium just to live on upper floors.

And in the meantime, there are several existing options: Founders Tower, Tiffany, Park Harvey, Regency Tower and soon to be First National.

I would have loved to see something similar to the Glories Shopping Center in Barcelona on this lot. Then they could stack any number of floors of residential and office on top.

Here is the Google Maps location for those that are interested:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gl%C3%B2ries/@41.4055845,2.1920545,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xd7a15aeddffc7581!8m2!3d41.40 54839!4d2.1914859

Retail in the core is struggling as is traditional retail in general.

Several business have closed and I expect to see more in the coming year.

No developer is going to build a new project with more than a small amount of retail and restaurant space, at least anywhere near downtown.



Not aiming that at you PaddyShack, just an opportunity to make a point that has become obvious in the last year.

Retail in the core is struggling as is traditional retail in general.

Several business have closed and I expect to see more in the coming year.

No developer is going to build a new project with more than a small amount of retail and restaurant space, at least anywhere near downtown.



Not aiming that at you PaddyShack, just an opportunity to make a point that has become obvious in the last year.

Oh I understand, I was simply adding an idea from a place I saw in Barcelona. Even as far fetched as it would be here.

I'm really worried about the retail in Auto Alley and Midtown, which is about all we have in the core.

People need to patronize these places or several will go away, and soon.

And developers know this and will be including less retail/restaurant space in the near future.


Almost all that BOK Park Plaza space is empty, Devon never really tried with their street-level space, fair amount of vacancy in Deep Deuce, never really took hold in Bricktown (with a few exceptions), Steelyard space is still empty, same at Lift, etc., etc.

Any idea that the streetcar would be a boon has now faded.

Milhause proposal is obviously not up to par. Alleys End is decent and on the right track. But I do not trust developers who build in "phases". Plus This phasing includes #1 being the two buildings furthest from the parking, and then Phase 2 is building a structure between the existing Phase 1 buildings and the garage AND building on top of the garage at the same time. That sounds like a complete nightmare for people who just newly moved in.

Unless there is strict requirements making them build the entire project at once, or a massive penalty to delaying or not even building Phase 2. Then I say accept neither of these. This property is too important.

I would like to see this developed with a chance of an aesthetically urban grocer of the sort.

oof hard pass on both of these

My wife and I like to make most of our gift purchases from these retailers. For the past few years I have exclusively purchased items from OKCollective, Shop Good, and Plenty Mercantile. This is not including all of my money being dumped at the Energy FC store. However, the majority of products sold in these shops are one-time buys or gifts for birthdays and holidays (i.e. once a year purchases). If there was a true grocer or a pasta and oil store, or something similar to Forward Foods that used to be over on Western Ave. I would see us spending more money in these areas.

We used to like Hatch but it is just too difficult for us to get to DT early enough to beat the line for breakfast. I wouldn't mind visiting Coffee Slingers more but their hours are not conducive for me. But we still frequent the area for date nights and what not. Just this past weekend we tried Yuzo for the first time and were really pleased.

My wife and I always find ourselves saying we wished we could live DT, but it currently is not in our budget.

All this to say, there are so many moving parts and variables at play it is hard to know what to do and how we would do it.

Alley's Edge is cool, but do we really need a building shaped in the letters VD across the street from COKC ring?

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/alleysend1.jpg

We 1000% need that.

I would have loved to see something similar to the Glories Shopping Center in Barcelona on this lot. Then they could stack any number of floors of residential and office on top.

Here is the Google Maps location for those that are interested:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gl%C3%B2ries/@41.4055845,2.1920545,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xd7a15aeddffc7581!8m2!3d41.40 54839!4d2.1914859

this development seems to really create a vibrant and social experience that transcends just an individual retailer... the retail options are part of a collective experience. Such developments might have more of a chance of success than just adding retail options as in the other developments Pete mentioned. OKC has embraced H&8th, the food halls, Bleu Garten and other social spaces... that's something online purchasing can't offer.

I'm really worried about the retail in Auto Alley and Midtown, which is about all we have in the core.

People need to patronize these places or several will go away, and soon.

And developers know this and will be including less retail/restaurant space in the near future.


Almost all that BOK Park Plaza space is empty, Devon never really tried with their street-level space, fair amount of vacancy in Deep Deuce, never really took hold in Bricktown (with a few exceptions), Steelyard space is still empty, same at Lift, etc., etc..

With everything that has happened in downtown over the last 20 years, laments about retail have been continuous. Yet, we keep giving incentives to outside retailers, some of which have loads of financial resources, to come in and compete with local retail. Many of the local retailers have actually taken a lot of the risk associated with the districts that have emerged in that time and actually serve to create a lot of the character that makes these districts unique and interesting. It's hard to complain about downtown retail when we're constantly putting a finger on the scale for large outside corporate retail. We give millions in incentives to outside companies with billions in sales, but, as far as I can tell, most locally owned businesses are on their own. In a lot of cases there are resources for the developers and for district improvements, but that usually doesn't translate to a direct cost savings for the retailers.

If we really want to see retail in a district downtown, maybe we could offer some incentives to local shops for maybe a year or so to help offset start up costs. I think for downtown retail to be successful, it has to reach a critical mass in a denser walk-able setting, which would create a shopping destination. IMO, that would probably require a concerted effort by a developer or group of developers and/or some incentive to commit ground floor space to retail. I love the shops that are on AA, but a lot of ground floor space is office space, which, at best, fragments the retail landscape or, at worst, chokes it out.

I think it's great what has happened downtown and the increase in housing, restaurants, and office space has been great to see. I think it's harder to piecemeal together a retail district over time in the same fashion, especially in the age of Amazon and Costco, and is why it keeps sputtering along and hasn't really taken off yet.

With retail dying everywhere, I have to say I prefer the Milhaus proposal because it has more units. We need more people living downtown. Milhaus did a great job on Lyft, maybe this proposal could be improved before being built.

Retail is not dying everywhere. There are so many new retail developments in SoCal and all have been extremely successful. There have been new malls recently built and they are a smash hit.

With retail dying everywhere, I have to say I prefer the Milhaus proposal because it has more units. We need more people living downtown. Milhaus did a great job on Lyft, maybe this proposal could be improved before being built.

Retail isn't dying, it's changing. I agree though. Milhaus did a great job on Lyft and if the city would have let them do the south lot on the Stage Center site there would be a residential tower there today. They have a proven track record and I think that's worth something.

https://www.theonion.com/variety-of-unsustainable-business-models-make-up-extrem-1819590179

The type of small retail we have in the core is struggling everywhere and I don't expect that trend to change.

There is also a big restaurant and bar shakeout looming in OKC.

Therefore, developers are having to adapt accordingly. And so will our design review boards.

We dont need to let retail worries affect the decision because the its quite clear whats the better option here. The design, affordable housing aspect and local partners make the Alleys End proposal the easy pick.

And there is not a ton of retail/commercial space in Rose Rock's proposal.

My previous comments were more about people expecting these big mixed-use projects in the core. I don't think that's going to happen in the foreseeable future because there are not enough takers for retail and restaurant space.


BTW, it's a logical conclusion that Arvest was the bank involved in the original Rose Rock proposal for this site. The bank part is now gone and coincides with Arvest announcing their move to the old BOK space.

I feel like the trend for retail is to incorporate in retail/food/bar/live/play mega-complexes now. Like for example the Pearl District in San Antonio, West Village in Uptown Dallas, Highland Park Village in Dallas. Hell, even Chisholm Creek in N OKC counts.

Think of everything in Chisholm Creek being built to urban standards and compacted into a smaller footprint somewhere near downtown. The place would automatically become its own district. People want to be able to walk their dog, grab a coffee, listen to live music in a pedestrian plaza or lawn, and then get drinks all in one city block. Even people who don't live in the places mentioned above would be able to partake because there is parking garages built within and surrounding the district. OKC does not have anything close to this.

We need mega-millionaire developers to take a chance in OKC. The planned OAK along NW Expressway is a good smaller-scale example of this attempt.

Keep in mind that at Chisholm Creek there is zero non-food related retail unless you count Scissors and Scotch, which is really a service, not retail.

And even at Classen Curve, everything they have added has been national retail and those tenants are never going to come to the core.

Keep in mind that at Chisholm Creek there is zero non-food related retail unless you count Scissors and Scotch, which is really a service, not retail.

And even at Classen Curve, everything they have added has been national retail and those tenants are never going to come to the core.

And Cabelas at Chisolm

True about Cabela's... There were also a lot of economic incentives involved, just like with Bass Pro in Bricktown.

Yea currently, but isn't the master plan involving large amounts of retail?

Looking at this map, everything in red and orange has a retail component or is entirely retail. Plus there will definitely be more in the grey future areas.

https://images1.loopnet.com/i2/s7uEEVb2TFHNCr4JkWsA25H3wjLQcshffI3sN-M1tzM/112/image.png

I understand, but one can view all the downtown improvements with maps, bonds, and tifs as incentives also. Still, retailers don't see enough traffic possible in downtown just yet . At Chisolm Creek there is just an insane amount of retail a mile west. It's hard to compare the two areas.

Yea currently, but isn't the master plan involving large amounts of retail?

Looking at this map, everything in red and orange has a retail component or is entirely retail. Plus there will definitely be more in the grey future areas.

So did Tract 30 and it's all restaurants, food places, service and office space.

All I'm saying is that small, local retail is very, very hard.

So did Tract 30 and it's all restaurants, food places, service and office space.

All I'm saying is that small, local retail is very, very hard.
My wife used to own a store. It became increasingly difficult to find differentiated items to market at prices necessary to sustain a business. Nationals have buying leverage and forced many small suppliers of goods out of business. Nationals buy the same merch at lower prices and put sales on much quicker, driving down the number of days merch could be sold at full retail. Nationals can buy advertising much better and more often. Then the internet hit and shoppers came to look and try on, but then shopped for lower prices on the internet. All this with the increased real estate prices in downtown makes it very difficult to find merch with market demand and reasonable mark-up, and the volume isn't there yet. It's a real conundrum.

Retail isn't giving up, we haven't been able to get the right type and we have too much space for it spread out over too much of an area in the CBD. People wan't concentration so they can go to multiple places at once. Automobile Alley had the potential to do that, but it also requires some anchor tenants to bring the people in to visit the other shops. As much as people hate on the suburban model of parking lot city developments, they do have something right. Contiguous options.

In AA, we we needed to do was get some larger retailers to plant themselves as the attraction. Then the people would go get a cup of coffee or a book from a local shop next door. Shopping downtown is NOT a destination. You have one group of things in AA, one group of things over on the NW side, one corner sort of off AA, then is spreads out to Midtown. It's too far to walk between the two even for someone like me that does walk the length of the suburban places.

The difficulty comes from having all the individual buildings owned by their own separate owner, each pulling for their own tenant. There's no overall vision for the place....i'm thinking AA specifically here. Just because we have a hodge-podge of buildings, doesn't mean we can't put an Old Navy in and connect a couple of buildings together with a walk-through. That happens all over the country.

But the place has to BE a destination. Not just a spattering of interesting places that i have to go out of my way to go there. And there's nothing to draw people there that doesn't exist elsewhere.

It's also a factor of WHO is living downtown. We are never going to get the concentration there of the type of people that we need to make this work. The average Joe isn't going to be able to afford downtown right now and they sure as heck aren't going for a $5 brownie and a $7 coffee in AA. Park Harvey is as close as we've gotten so far, but it sucks. Our real estate market just isn't pushing pressure on going downtown though, so i can't fault developers here. It's just too cheap everywhere else. This isn't Chicago. I dont HAVE to drive an hour to-from unless i CHOOSE to. And i dont have to live downtown to avoid that drive either.

But for retail, we really need a developer or co-op partnership or something to make this all work.

I feel like the trend for retail is to incorporate in retail/food/bar/live/play mega-complexes now. Like for example the Pearl District in San Antonio, West Village in Uptown Dallas, Highland Park Village in Dallas. Hell, even Chisholm Creek in N OKC counts.

Think of everything in Chisholm Creek being built to urban standards and compacted into a smaller footprint somewhere near downtown. The place would automatically become its own district. People want to be able to walk their dog, grab a coffee, listen to live music in a pedestrian plaza or lawn, and then get drinks all in one city block. Even people who don't live in the places mentioned above would be able to partake because there is parking garages built within and surrounding the district. OKC does not have anything close to this.

We need mega-millionaire developers to take a chance in OKC. The planned OAK along NW Expressway is a good smaller-scale example of this attempt.

Chisholm Creek is nothing like the Pearl, West Village or Highland Park. Like, not even close. The Pearl is filled with local restaurants, shops and stores. There is not a single national chain at the Pearl. It’s all local or very regional.

Chisholm is trying to be a large masterplanned lifestyle center with potentially mixed-use aspects that include new urbanism elements.

But in all honesty, it’s just a smaller version of The Rim in San Antonio and the Rim is nothing like The Pearl either.

The Rim has over two million square feet of retail, entertainment places like Top Golf, Andretti’s, Bowl n Barrel. It has 6 hotels, 7 multi-story residential complexes and and a ton of parking surfaces. It’s a sprawled out retail nightmare some 20 miles northwest of downtown.

My wife used to own a store. It became increasingly difficult to find differentiated items to market at prices necessary to sustain a business. Nationals have buying leverage and forced many small suppliers of goods out of business. Nationals buy the same merch at lower prices and put sales on much quicker, driving down the number of days merch could be sold at full retail. Nationals can buy advertising much better and more often. Then the internet hit and shoppers came to look and try on, but then shopped for lower prices on the internet. All this with the increased real estate prices in downtown makes it very difficult to find merch with market demand and reasonable mark-up, and the volume isn't there yet. It's a real conundrum.

That pretty much sums it up. Add in the government assistance given to large retailers and you have a pretty good picture of what independent retailers are facing.

That pretty much sums it up. Add in the government assistance given to large retailers and you have a pretty good picture of what independent retailers are facing.

I guess you are talking about the incentives given to a very few retailers to stimulate retail in strategic retail deserts, huh? Not sure that affects most local boutiques, general merchandise and specialty stores.

I guess you are talking about the incentives given to a very few retailers to stimulate retail in strategic retail deserts, huh? Not sure that affects most local boutiques, general merchandise and specialty stores.

Not nearly just retail deserts in OKCS: Von Maur at Quail Springs, Cabela's, Costco, soon to be a 2nd Costco, the Outlet Mall, etc.

Not nearly just retail deserts in OKCS: Von Maur at Quail Springs, Cabela's, Costco, soon to be a 2nd Costco, the Outlet Mall, etc.
Yeah, maybe those had some effect. But the real issues started raising their head by the 80s and exacerbated by e commerce way more than some location cost incentives. Department stores, big box stores and national specialty chain boutiques funded by large investment firms were and are the enemy of local retailers way more than location incentives. Walmart killed way more small retailers than Cabellas. Macy’s way more than Von Maur.