.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral9.jpg
Another quality redevelopment that will enhance the Penn Central area and add to OKC's portfolio.

Tulsa developers Andy Patel (Fairfield Inn & Suites) & Ryan McNeill are Tulsa based developers who recognize the potential in Oklahoma City.

Not to derail this thread... no pun intended, .... but every time I see the name of this development I think of the late 60’s merger of the Pennsylvania, New York Central, and New Haven railroads.

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This will be a very cool development. Kind of wish I still lived over in Mayfair.

I imagine a development like this would lead to the nearby houses that are most "exposed" or "vulnerable" to the new development either getting purchase by people who do not care, or getting purchased by other developers who work to then tear down those houses and merge multiple lots so they can build multi-unit dwellings.

To that end - do we as a city have a good process in place for these types of changes?

^

That's pretty much what happened around Classen Curve.

Developers went into the bordering neighborhood and started buying lots and building 4-on-a-lot homes that sell for $700K+.

Homeowners in surrounding area will not be hurting if this gets built.

Homeowners in surrounding area will not be hurting if this gets built.

As I've mentioned, I live a few blocks to the south.

I would *love* to have someplace to walk to. I tried walking to Penn Square once and just about got ran over half a dozen times.

And it would hurt to see property values go up. :)

^ wouldn't

Will be interesting to see what lease rates run. If they've spend north or $30 PSF on the dirt and require structured parking, I presume they'll have to be pretty high to be economically feasible.

The rezoning application and plan to close and reroute some streets goes before the planning commission on March 28th.

A few new renderings and the rest are just better quality than what was previously posted.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019j.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019e.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019f.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019g.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019h.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019i.jpg

Seems like quality projects like this have way more steps involved, and take longer to get thru the process. Crappy projects get approval almost instantly, by comparison.

^

This project is in a highly developed area, involves razing several office buildings and homes, requires a switch from R-1 residential to very high density commercial, requires closing of state right-of-way and a new exit off NW Expressway, and would include rerouting a major section line road (50th) and completely closing some other streets.

This is about as complicated as it gets.

The only thing that really compares is the massive Chesapeake campus and surrounding properties, and that took over a decade and involved dozens and dozens of approvals over that time.

^

This project is in a highly developed area, involves razing several office buildings and homes, requires a switch from R-1 residential to very high density commercial, requires closing of state right-of-way and a new exit off NW Expressway, and would include rerouting a major section line road (50th) and completely closing some other streets.

This is about as complicated as it gets.

The only thing that really compares is the massive Chesapeake campus and surrounding properties, and that took over a decade and involved dozens and dozens of approvals over that time.

That's true. I didn't realize all that had to change and get re-zoned with this project.

The site plan does not line up with the aerial view.

Plus, they don't own all the homes where they want to build the parking garage along NW Expy.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral032019j.jpg

NWPF LLC (https://flic.kr/p/2fbYW3J) owned parcels:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7908/47381960342_6dffa32108_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2fbYW3J)

VINTAGE GARDEN ENTERPRISES LLC (https://flic.kr/p/2dSMk8V) owned parcels:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7914/46519642975_8e0d19484a_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dSMk8V)

Looks like one home owner is holding out, MEYER RODNEY (https://flic.kr/p/2dSMk9X) parcel:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7858/46519643035_7c3391fa8a_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dSMk9X)

Pete, have you heard whether the Temple B'nai Israel folks have taken any sort of position on this? Just curious.

The only thing I would change is make all the vehicle access and parking to the outskirts and the garages. Make the currently-planned internal driving paths a pedestrian corridor.

https://i.imgur.com/DYsFjDI.jpg

you can't cut off 50th street ...

Why not? You can still access through the north side of this project, or even the dump out to NW Expressway. The stuff in white is surface lanes/parking.

Why not? You can still access through the north side of this project, or even the dump out to NW Expressway. The stuff in white is surface lanes/parking.

because 50th is a main east west street to that neighbor hood and in OKC .. fire police oge access ect

you can't cut off 50th street ...

I think you meant, "You can't cut off 50th Street... unless you're an expressway or office tower" :-P

because 50th is a main east west street to that neighbor hood and in OKC .. fire police oge access ect

50th is already cut off by 50 Penn Place -- and access from North Penn is limited to south bound traffic only.

I think you meant, "You can't cut off 50th Street... unless you're an expressway or office tower" :-P

maybe you mean a state highway and a federal interstate highway ..

maybe you mean a state highway and a federal interstate highway ..

i think he meant exactly what he said.

because 50th is a main east west street to that neighbor hood and in OKC .. fire police oge access ect

A fire station exists at the western edge of 50th before May.

Still looks like a lot of surface parking in there. I wonder, do they play to convert that to retail/parking in the future?

Still looks like a lot of surface parking in there. I wonder, do they play to convert that to retail/parking in the future?

Most of the parking is structured parking and a little on-street parking. I don’t think there are surface parking lots. Perhaps you are looking at the church’s surface parking on the west end which isn’t part of this development

50th is already cut off by 50 Penn Place -- and access from North Penn is limited to south bound traffic only.so we should further disjoint it? If anything they need to plan a future continuous corridor when the inevitable redesign of 50 Penn Place surfaces in conjunction with the rebuild of the Belle Isle freeways(OkDOT) project. But we all know that won’t happen.

But isn't 50th pretty much disjointed between Western and Pennsylvania already?

But isn't 50th pretty much disjointed between Western and Pennsylvania already?

Absolutely, 50th/Classen is a cluster***, we don't ever go through there, we usually just go around it on 36th.

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But isn't 50th pretty much disjointed between Western and Pennsylvania already?
My point is it would be better to develop long term planning strategies to reconnect it rather than take the might as well further disjoint it road.

My point is it would be better to develop long term planning strategies to reconnect it rather than take the might as well further disjoint it road.

but why must long term plans reconnect it? why do all roads need to be on the mile grid? other roads serve the function that a 50th connected the whole way through would... so why do we need roads that perform duplicate service and function? i have no issues with 50th never being reconnected

I remember as a kid riding with my folks and making the left hand turns off of 50th on to Penn to get to NW Hwy. long before 50 Penn Place was built. There were a lot of wrecks there as I recall and it was changed to right turn only. The problem with trying to connect 50th through is that NW Hwy runs on the same alignment as 50th east of Penn Square where it makes the transition from running at an NW/SE direction to E/W. My understanding is that 50th street has never connected through unless it was before NW Hwy was constructed and it was mostly farmland and dirt roads.

I live in the hood directly south of this proposed development and NW 50th is not highly trafficked near Penn.

Lots of other ways you can get the direction you need to go.

^^ Same when I lived in Mayfair. That strip of 50th between May and Penn always had light traffic.

but why must long term plans reconnect it? why do all roads need to be on the mile grid? other roads serve the function that a 50th connected the whole way through would... so why do we need roads that perform duplicate service and function? i have no issues with 50th never being reconnected
Fair point. I would like to see 50th reconnected just for myself. At this point it wouldn’t do much to improve traffic.

Fair point. I would like to see 50th reconnected just for myself. At this point it wouldn’t do much to improve traffic.

haha... not what i was expecting as a response. but i love your honesty! lol.

Most of the parking is structured parking and a little on-street parking. I don’t think there are surface parking lots. Perhaps you are looking at the church’s surface parking on the west end which isn’t part of this development

You're absolutely correct. I wasnt looking at this correctly. Thank you.

Fair point. I would like to see 50th reconnected just for myself. At this point it wouldn’t do much to improve traffic.

I don’t believe it was ever connected in the first place. When it was all rural pasture land, I believe 50th dead ended at Penn because just to the east is the Deep Fork, and like many rural roads, no bridge was built to cross it. I could be wrong, and would like to see aerial photos of the area before NW Hwy and Classen circle were built to be sure. But this has been my understanding.

I don’t believe it was ever connected in the first place. When it was all rural pasture land, I believe 50th dead ended at Penn because just to the east is the Deep Fork, and like many rural roads, no bridge was built to cross it. I could be wrong, and would like to see aerial photos of the area before NW Hwy and Classen circle were built to be sure. But this has been my understanding.

It wasn't.

See 1954 aerial below. Note this is before Penn Square, but Classen Circle was still in effect.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/nw50th1954.jpg

It wasn't.

See 1954 aerial below. Note this is before Penn Square, but Classen Circle was still in effect.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/nw50th1954.jpg

Right. 50th connected to 46th via what is now Mattern Drive.

Thank you Pete and Buffalo Bill. That last shot looking west confirms most of my thoughts.

That is an absolutely fascinating aerial view. I've been wondering for a while now how Classen Circle was laid out, and comparing this view to a current map is really interesting in seeing what is the same and what has changed. Mattern Drive on both sides of 44 is a good example of what I mean.

Thanks for that historical info. Details I did not realize (that 50th had never connected). I will no longer harp on this issue now that I've been informed.

Those are very cool shots. The up and coming Mayfair Heights is clearly visible. My home on 46th was built in 1950, so that photo has to be mid to late 40’s. Interesting to see the development and redevelpment of the area through time.

Absolutely love that shot and being able to compare how this area was laid out 65 years ago as opposed to present day. Fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Pete, do you if they have acquired all of the properties for this development or do they need to acquire more? I am thinking more of the single family homes rather than the offices.

Pete, do you if they have acquired all of the properties for this development or do they need to acquire more? I am thinking more of the single family homes rather than the offices.

They have acquired all the homes as well as the 3 commercial lots.

Actually, Chesapeake had assembled all the residential properties some time ago, as it was adjacent to the Salvation Army they also bought (now razed). And this developer bought all that from CHK then the two large office properties.

They have acquired all the homes as well as the 3 commercial lots.

Actually, Chesapeake had assembled all the residential properties some time ago, as it was adjacent to the Salvation Army they also bought (now razed). And this developer bought all that from CHK then the two large office properties.

Got it, thanks Pete. So, the big things will be the rezoning, ROW for 50th and that sort of thing. Any idea how long something like that will take?

Got it, thanks Pete. So, the big things will be the rezoning, ROW for 50th and that sort of thing. Any idea how long something like that will take?

They had already gathered a lot of signatures of support from the neighborhood.

This could pass at the next planning commission but more likely, will take a couple of passes and adjustments.

I know they have already been recruiting national tenants and have only been signing short-term leases in the office space.

They had already gathered a lot of signatures of support from the neighborhood.

This could pass at the next planning commission but more likely, will take a couple of passes and adjustments.

I know they have already been recruiting national tenants and have only been signing short-term leases in the office space.

This will, if it is not shredded down, be an awesome development, and will get similar-level tenants to Classen Curve, and maybe slightly better, since it is not basically full like CC is.

Out of curiosity, does anyone else think that there is more parking in here than the development, as presently presented, really needs?

It seems like there are somewhere between 2000-2500 spaces (assuming 5 story garages) and I think Penn Square is under 3500 and is significantly larger/more dense. Now if those garages are shorter than I'm thinking they'll be, then sure, I can see the need.

Also, I think I've said this before, but if this comes through, Classen Curve, Penn Square, Belle Isle, and Penn Central need to seriously look at establishing a bus route between all these places.

out of curiosity, does anyone else think that there is more parking in here than the development, as presently presented, really needs?

It seems like there are somewhere between 2000-2500 spaces (assuming 5 story garages) and i think penn square is under 3500 and is significantly larger/more dense. Now if those garages are shorter than i'm thinking they'll be, then sure, i can see the need.

Also, i think i've said this before, but if this comes through, classen curve, penn square, belle isle, and penn central need to seriously look at establishing a bus route between all these places.

or a streetcar line :)

^ dont forget NHP, triangle, 50 Penn. and possibly Cassidy Sq. Quite the retail monster when you group the area all together. ..

The rezoning was to be heard today at Planning Commission but the developer elected to continue to next month's meeting.

The rezoning was to be heard today at Planning Commission but the developer elected to continue to next month's meeting.
Anything to be made of this or just the developer making sure everything is in order?

Anything to be made of this or just the developer making sure everything is in order?

It's very common; about half the items on today's agenda were continued at the request of the applicant.

I haven't seen any letters of protest.

Out of curiosity, does anyone else think that there is more parking in here than the development, as presently presented, really needs?

It seems like there are somewhere between 2000-2500 spaces (assuming 5 story garages) and I think Penn Square is under 3500 and is significantly larger/more dense. Now if those garages are shorter than I'm thinking they'll be, then sure, I can see the need.

Also, I think I've said this before, but if this comes through, Classen Curve, Penn Square, Belle Isle, and Penn Central need to seriously look at establishing a bus route between all these places.

Pretty sure NW Expressway is getting a Bus Rapid Transit line.

Pretty sure NW Expressway is getting a Bus Rapid Transit line.

But I'm specifically referring to a route where I could park my car at Penn Square and do a day of shopping @ Classen Curve, the mall, and Penn Central without ever moving my car. I mean, I don't think is something we would need in 2023, but by 2030, there could be some serious density in all these places, especially if any of these property owners realize the potential in retrofitting some of the surface parking into mixed use parking-garages.

If Penn Central happens, it will cement this area as the most important retail area in OKC for a guaranteed 30+ years and I believe it could be a major spur to working toward larger-scale urbanization from Villa to Shartel, 36th up to 63rd.

There may not be a need for it now, but I would certainly use it if I felt like having a shopping day! I've used the downtown streetcar for the same general reason. It's easy parking and then taking the streetcar to Midtown, then back to Bricktown to catch a movie before leaving. It's a good idea, Teo!

But I'm specifically referring to a route where I could park my car at Penn Square and do a day of shopping @ Classen Curve, the mall, and Penn Central without ever moving my car. I mean, I don't think is something we would need in 2023, but by 2030, there could be some serious density in all these places, especially if any of these property owners realize the potential in retrofitting some of the surface parking into mixed use parking-garages.

If Penn Central happens, it will cement this area as the most important retail area in OKC for a guaranteed 30+ years and I believe it could be a major spur to working toward larger-scale urbanization from Villa to Shartel, 36th up to 63rd.

To get people used to the idea, to have/show ridership numbers, and to eventually convince a future RTA to support such a transit option officially, it would be a decent idea for the entities you mention to form a joint venture to fund the buying/operating of 2-3 buses or vans and hire several drivers to run this circulator, especially on weekends...

Honestly, I could see it being a business opportunity, especially if there was a garage built and the business rented out a select number of spaces. Imagine being able to go to Penn Central, park in one of the garages in a reserved space, you get chauffeured around the area and every time you get on the "bus" to go to the next location you, can off-load your bags, which are then taken back to the garage and stored until you're ready to go.

I can imagine that would not only appeal to consumers, but potentially something for the business owners in the area to subsidize as it would certainly draw in more people looking for a heightened shopping experience.

Any updates???