Welcome to Oklahoma! This isn't NYC or LA... people around here (outside of this message board) like their cars (and trucks).

Haha, you actually used LA for your example. Lol. They are far, far from urban. You could have picked Boston, Philly, DC, or one of 15 urban centers on the east coast, but you picked an even more sprawling city than OKC.

LA is actually a really good example of how the two can be combined. It is a huge massive sprawl on the macro level, and most people have cars and drive most places. But there are a lot of places they drive to that function more like urban areas than what you will find in most sprawling cities. In a lot of ways it's a good template for a city like OKC and shows that you can have urban pockets in a city designed for cars. We do have urban pockets, too, just on an obviously different scale. Granted, most of them are revitalized areas that were originally developed with pedestrian traffic in mind, but they do exist.

The Grove in L.A. is considered the granddaddy of all lifestyle centers.

And there are hundreds of other walkable areas. I lived in Manhattan Beach for years and would literally not touch my car on the weekends as everything, including a full grocery store, bank, cleaners, dentist, hair cutter, optomistrist, library, the beach, and scores of restaurants and shops were just a few blocks away.

I had a ton of friends in Santa Monica who also wouldn't touch their car for days at a time.

Welcome to Oklahoma! This isn't NYC or LA... people around here (outside of this message board) like their cars (and trucks).

It’s not a binary. Good developments accommodate people AND cars. Most Oklahoma developments design for cars and ignore what people do once they get out of them. Most car lovers also love walkable environments.

P.S. You also don’t seem to know much about design if you think LA is walkable. It’s one of the most car-centric cities in the country.

LA is actually a really good example of how the two can be combined. It is a huge massive sprawl on the macro level, and most people have cars and drive most places. But there are a lot of places they drive to that function more like urban areas than what you will find in most sprawling cities. In a lot of ways it's a good template for a city like OKC and shows that you can have urban pockets in a city designed for cars. We do have urban pockets, too, just on an obviously different scale. Granted, most of them are revitalized areas that were originally developed with pedestrian traffic in mind, but they do exist.

Man, gonna have to disagree with LA being any kind of model. Yes, there are walkable areas of LA, but they are so poorly connected with each other. OKC could do much better. I’d rather OKC look to a place like Kansas City that got their streetcar right, for example.

Man, gonna have to disagree with LA being any kind of model. Yes, there are walkable areas of LA, but they are so poorly connected with each other. OKC could do much better. IÂ’d rather OKC look to a place like Kansas City that got their streetcar right, for example.

Sure, it would be cool if OKC's urban pockets were all connected by a street car. Same with LA.

But despite the lack of a street car to connect them all, LA still has more dense urban pockets than you will find in KC. You just have usually drive from one to the other, which is why it is currently a better model for OKC, unless there is a major streetcar expansion on the horizon of which I am unaware,

So, that all I was trying to say, and it's just a matter of scale. About 13% of people in LA, or 2.5 million, live there without a car. That's more people than live in all of KC metro area and that's because there are large urban pockets all around Los Angeles. It would indeed be awesome if there was a better rail and/or subway system to move between them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

P.S. You also don’t seem to know much about design if you think LA is walkable. It’s one of the most car-centric cities in the country.

See Pete's post above...

No major city is completely walkable, unless you intend on walking miles upon miles. Even in NYC, you aren't walking from the Prince's Bay Lighthouse to the Yankee Stadium (that's 2 hours and 45 minutes on a bicycle, Google won't even calculate the walking time!).

One element missing is this conversation is making areas elderly friendly. Walkability is fine, drivable is fine, but consider ways for folks as they grow older to navigate an area. The overall population of Okc, Oklahoma and the USA is aging. Developing plans for housing/shopping ect for an aging population needs to be part of the conversation. I forget the name of the plan or whatever that Oklahoma is pushing, it just shows that this needs to be part of the overall conversation. By the way I am fixing to turn 66 with bad knees. Nope I am not moving to town. My area is rapidly developing which alot of people would think is great. Whole Foods etc coming in within 5 miles. This does not fit my lifestyle. I'm the out linger on this stuff. If I cannot walk around my acreage, then I guess I 'll drive it. I just want to say that lots of older folks are wanting to get able to access shopping, parks and housing that is elder friendly. Is that a term?? Oh well, its one now.

See Pete's post above...

No major city is completely walkable, unless you intend on walking miles upon miles. Even in NYC, you aren't walking from the Prince's Bay Lighthouse to the Yankee Stadium (that's 2 hours and 45 minutes on a bicycle, Google won't even calculate the walking time!).

Walkability doesn’t mean you don’t have other forms of transportation (cars, subway, streetcars), it means places are built on a human scale.

Here’s Jeff Speck, who actually advised OKC and walkable infrastructure improvements:


https://youtu.be/Wai4ub90stQ?feature=shared

Walkability doesn’t mean you don’t have other forms of transportation (cars, subway, streetcars), it means places are built on a human scale.

Here’s Jeff Speck, who actually advised OKC and walkable infrastructure improvements:


https://youtu.be/Wai4ub90stQ?feature=shared

It has stopped surprising me when I hear/see people railing against walkability and urbanism just to realize they haven’t tried to understand what it is they’re so fervently denouncing and are fighting ghosts as a result. It seems a not-so-small part of the aversion to it comes from literalists taking terms like walkability and pedestrian oriented at face value to mean “only walkable” or “only for pedestrians.”

Walkability is about the accessibility of a neighborhood, district, or development to pedestrians, not just a pure rebuke of vehicles. Like you said, “built to a human scale.” To put it another way, Manhattan can be arguably the most walkable area in the United States even though over 900,000 cars enter it daily.

I looked today because I was sure that a development like this would need a $100MM+ TIF to get off the ground.

I couldn't find anything.

So is it actually possible that development in OKC is possible without our public schools footing the bill?

I looked today because I was sure that a development like this would need a $100MM+ TIF to get off the ground.

I couldn't find anything.

So is it actually possible that development in OKC is possible without our public schools footing the bill?

No TIF.

No TIF.

Amazing. I thought we couldn't build a WalMart Neighborhood market without public incentives.

Unfortunately, we're spending millions on what I expect will be a competitive development around 13th and Broadway. The last thing on that land was a Happy Foods torn down in the 90s.

This screams that we have a need for guidelines and standards in this area. At this rate, the developer of OAK was almost negligent not to hook up with an Alliance connected consultant to cash in on that sweet free money from our schools.

Had a chance to go to the skating rink yesterday with the kiddo and some friends with kids as well. I like the size of the rink and think once RH and the area next to the rink (Shake Shack?) is done, it will be easier to navigate. I was telling people about RH, Alo, Masero and Blue Mercury all opening in 2025 and that will really activate the area even more, not to mention the apartments and people moving in there.

I looked today because I was sure that a development like this would need a $100MM+ TIF to get off the ground.

I couldn't find anything.

So is it actually possible that development in OKC is possible without our public schools footing the bill?

In a pretty developed, pretty well off, and currently engaged area, yeah TIFs aren't needed. Not everywhere is Penn & NW Expressway with its built in advantages.

In a pretty developed, pretty well off, and currently engaged area, yeah TIFs aren't needed. Not everywhere is Penn & NW Expressway with its built in advantages.

Midtowner needs to step into the shoes of developers to gain a more realistic perspective on real estate development. Unlike SimCity, it's a highly risky and complex business.

One element missing is this conversation is making areas elderly friendly. Walkability is fine, drivable is fine, but consider ways for folks as they grow older to navigate an area. The overall population of Okc, Oklahoma and the USA is aging. Developing plans for housing/shopping ect for an aging population needs to be part of the conversation. I forget the name of the plan or whatever that Oklahoma is pushing, it just shows that this needs to be part of the overall conversation. By the way I am fixing to turn 66 with bad knees. Nope I am not moving to town. My area is rapidly developing which alot of people would think is great. Whole Foods etc coming in within 5 miles. This does not fit my lifestyle. I'm the out linger on this stuff. If I cannot walk around my acreage, then I guess I 'll drive it. I just want to say that lots of older folks are wanting to get able to access shopping, parks and housing that is elder friendly. Is that a term?? Oh well, its one now.

Making places walkable is elderly-friendly design. Your knees might not be good but you can get a electric bike or wheelchair or some sort of assistive device. It may sound horrible navigating the current landscape in one but that is because we lack great walkability in most of the region.

If we just rely on cars to get elderly folks around it sets up older folks to eventually be prisoners in their own homes. Just like people under 16 shouldnt drive, people over a certain age shouldnt drive either. For their safety and the safety of others on the road.

In a pretty developed, pretty well off, and currently engaged area, yeah TIFs aren't needed. Not everywhere is Penn & NW Expressway with its built in advantages.
^^^^^^^^
This.

In a pretty developed, pretty well off, and currently engaged area, yeah TIFs aren't needed. Not everywhere is Penn & NW Expressway with its built in advantages.

Billions (literally) of public money have been invested in the core and TIF only continues to escalate.

TIF being "needed" in that area is highly debatable, as I've pointed out many times.


Reminder that TIF hasn't been needed in Uptown, Paseo, the Plaza, Western Avenue and a bunch of other areas where there has been substantial private investment.

https://youtu.be/UPgZxQE7tbY?si=KxVn01J3XXbI86O3

I'm anxious for them to finish the west side of this complex and completely reopen NW 50th.

They are still working on the facade and west (main) entrance to the parking garage.

That section-line road has been closed for years and it causes a bunch of traffic to be redirected through my neighborhood.

Amazing. I thought we couldn't build a WalMart Neighborhood market without public incentives.

Unfortunately, we're spending millions on what I expect will be a competitive development around 13th and Broadway. The last thing on that land was a Happy Foods torn down in the 90s.

This screams that we have a need for guidelines and standards in this area. At this rate, the developer of OAK was almost negligent not to hook up with an Alliance connected consultant to cash in on that sweet free money from our schools.

Im pretty sure they pushed the Alliance hard to get TIF money for OAK, which why wouldnt they when others have received it? Not sure the reasons they werent given any, maybe its not in downtown or one of the usual suspects who get TIF money?


Midtowner needs to step into the shoes of developers to gain a more realistic perspective on real estate development. Unlike SimCity, it's a highly risky and complex business.

It is, but doesnt mean so many projects should get TIF money. In fact, the riskier you make your project out to be to the Alliance, the better chance they will give you some TIF money.

They didn't get TIF money because it is nowhere close to being in a TIF district. TIF districts are specifically targeted at parts of Oklahoma City where the City strongly desires redevelopment for strategic reasons (for instance downtown), yet where it is complicated by historic disinvestment, complications and expense drivers such as complicated property acquisitions, stricter design guidelines, land costs, infrastructure issues, demolition costs, environmental mitigation issues and other reasons. The City has been working for 30 years to bring the core back from more than half a century of virtual abandonment, and they have done so because fixing a rotten core has become the lifeblood of this city's renaissance.

They didn't get TIF money because it is nowhere close to being in a TIF district. TIF districts are specifically targeted at parts of Oklahoma City where the City strongly desires development for strategic reasons (for instance downtown), yet where it is complicated by historic disinvestment, complications and expense drivers such as complicated property acquisitions, stricter design guidelines, land costs, infrastructure issues, mitigation issues and other reasons. The City has been working for 30 years to bring the core back from more than half a century of virtual abandonment, and they have done so because fixing a rotten core has become the lifeblood of this city's renaissance.

TIF was just awarded to NE 63rd & MLK, which until they gerrymandered the lines was miles from any existing TIF district.

They have done this repeatedly for other projects.

It's really this simple: if the head of Alliance wants you to have TIF, they do whatever is necessary to get it, including providing guidance on a pro forma to show the desired 'funding gap', carving out a specific property for TIF, moving money from one TIF to another, or just adding a whole new district from scratch.

If they aren't behind the project, like developers in Uptown making a pitch for structured parking and many others, there is a quick shake of the head and public assistance is dead and nobody keeps records or even knows about it. The Alliance also administers other public money in addition to TIF, such as some GOLT funds and other freebies.

It should also be said that TIF continues to go to the same relatively small group of developers over and over (see the panelists of the Oklahoman's development forum) and most of them are frequent fliers. Some seem to only do projects that mine significant public incentives.

It sounds crazy because it is, but this is exactly how it all works.

It goes to the same small group of developers because there are few developers in the city either qualified or brave enough to take on extremely complex projects of scale in the parts of town where the City wants to focus redevelopment efforts. Where are the other developers who are willing to take on projects in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in the City's areas of incentive? They don't exist.

It goes to the same small group of developers because there are few developers in the city either qualified or brave enough to take on extremely complex projects of scale in the parts of town where the City wants to focus redevelopment efforts. Where are the other developers who are willing to take on projects in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in the City's areas of incentive? They don't exist.

There have been many developers who have built things in the core that didn't get TIF.

Midtowner needs to step into the shoes of developers to gain a more realistic perspective on real estate development. Unlike SimCity, it's a highly risky and complex business.

It's not so risky when you take from a school district which primarily serves disadvantaged children to pad your bottom line.

It goes to the same small group of developers because there are few developers in the city either qualified or brave enough to take on extremely complex projects of scale in the parts of town where the City wants to focus redevelopment efforts. Where are the other developers who are willing to take on projects in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in the City's areas of incentive? They don't exist.

Oh please.

So if I take on a plaintiff's case and it is extremely challenging and complex and I end up getting a defense verdict, I ought to be able to expect the public to bail me out at the expense of public schools?

Why are developers so special in this regard? Why do they get to be unique in that their business model is backed up by the taxpayers? Are developers the only kinds of businesses that take risks?

It’s not about specific developers or whether they are somehow special or deserving. You have this incredibly twisted. It’s about what is a strategic need for the community, and what pushes the city forward and builds the overall tax base in the bargain.

Oklahoma City had multiple generations of disinvestment in its core and in areas like the Eastside, which has the added burden of institutional redlining for decades.

Try to get a conventional bank loan for commercial real estate in NE OKC. Try to build residential in the core. Try to develop much-needed and much-desired retail or mixed use in the core. Try to renovate a historic structure with environmental issues. But…only do so if your renovation can meet stringent design guidelines that don’t exist AT ALL in the suburbs. Try workforce housing. These things are virtually impossible without significant assistance.

Oklahoma City has spent the past 30 years trying to overcome the radical disinvestment that happened here for more than half a century preceding MAPS, and despite the progress we’ve made this city still has a long, long way to go to catch up. TIF is simply one of the most effective tools to assist in this effort. Your mind and the minds of some others on this site have simply become poisoned to this concept in part because undue and extreme negativity towards TIF here goes largely unchallenged.

^

Except the huge percentage of all private development has been done without any TIF whatsoever.

Everyone realizes something like First National or the Skirvin needs help.

I took this yesterday of Mesero; they still have a long way to go.

I bet they are pushing for spring.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oak010825a.jpg

I took this yesterday of Mesero; they still have a long way to go.

I bet they are pushing for spring.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oak010825a.jpg

There seem to be a lot of stores/restaurants announced for this that have done very little towards opening, or even being ready to open. Any word on them? Is there something in the water, or just timing issues?

There seem to be a lot of stores/restaurants announced for this that have done very little towards opening, or even being ready to open. Any word on them? Is there something in the water, or just timing issues?

Under construction: Mesero, Restoration Hardware, Oil Tree, Shake Shack (presumed), and Blue Mercury.

The only one that hasn't started is Alo.

Under construction: Mesero, Restoration Hardware, Oil Tree, Shake Shack (presumed), and Blue Mercury.

The only one that hasn't started is Alo.

Ok. I had just heard that a couple were either paused or delayed, so i wasn't sure.

Thank you, Pete!

1. Shake Shack progress
2. Rink being dismantled
3. RH Gallery windows going in
4. Mesero

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oak013025a.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oak013025b.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oak013025c.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oak013025d.jpg

Will Mesero have a patio? For some reason I was thinking the second floor was somewhat open air.

Will Mesero have a patio? For some reason I was thinking the second floor was somewhat open air.

There will be a patio facing the park and along the north side as well. Also, a bar that opens up to the outside.

Looks like the 2nd level is completely enclosed.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/mesero100624a.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/mesero100624b.jpg

So is it sure that’s shake shack now?

So is it sure that’s shake shack now?

It hasn't been officially announced, but it's presumed at this point.

Sign about to go up on Mesero. From the looks of things, they are moving fast now that the space is completely enclosed.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/mesero021325a.jpg

I guess Alo is not coming. Was there yesterday and everything that said Alo was covered over. A worker with an Oak badge said they were told in their morning huddle that the cancelled their lease.

I guess Alo is not coming. Was there yesterday and everything that said Alo was covered over. A worker with an Oak badge said they were told in their morning huddle that the cancelled their lease.

My understanding is that Simon (Penn Square owner) found out about the Alo deal and killed it.

Basically used their leverage as landlord of many Alo locations. Not sure if Alo will be going to Penn Square instead.

Simon had to have been furious when OAK took Pottery Barn.

My understanding is that Simon (Penn Square owner) found out about the Alo deal and killed it.

Basically used their leverage as landlord of many Alo locations. Not sure if Alo will be going to Penn Square instead.

Simon had to have been furious when OAK took Pottery Barn.

Although it wasn’t a direct, sequential move like Pottery Barn, don’t forget that Williams-Sonoma went from Penn Square to the OAK.

Yes, there is now a big rivalry between the two properties.

It's a big part of why OAK has been so quiet recently -- they don't want to provide advance information.

I hope Simon isn't able to dictate OAK tenants without bringing them to PSM. That only hurts OKC.

My understanding is that Simon (Penn Square owner) found out about the Alo deal and killed it.

Basically used their leverage as landlord of many Alo locations. Not sure if Alo will be going to Penn Square instead.

Simon had to have been furious when OAK took Pottery Barn.

Pete, couldn't that be construed to fall under "Restraint of Trade" in legal terms?

Pete, couldn't that be construed to fall under "Restraint of Trade" in legal terms?

I'm sure it was a mutual agreement and perhaps PSM gave them great incentives to go to the mall instead.

The main point is that Simon has a much bigger and longer relationship with Alo and that certainly played into this.


OAK poached Pottery Barn, so there is clear competition between the two properties, not necessarily anything nefarious.

The emergence of Oak in that location is one of the best things that could have happened to PSM, for what that’s worth.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oak022125a.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oak022125a.jpg

pete do you know off hand what the SQFT is of this expanded building ??

pete do you know off hand what the SQFT is of this expanded building ??

Right around 2,000 SF, but there will be a large patio in front as well.

Right around 2,000 SF, but there will be a large patio in front as well.

Was by there. Now that it is closed in it looks way bigger than it did just framed out. Looks good.

Was by there. Now that it is closed in it looks way bigger than it did just framed out. Looks good.

They actually took down the old framing and expanded.

Resembles the Shake Shack at McKinney and Pearl in Dallas.

Resembles the Shake Shack at McKinney and Pearl in Dallas.

It sure does:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/shakeshack022225a.jpg

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/shakeshack022225b.jpg

Pete, do we have any time-frames on possible announcements of new tenants?

the roof line of the McKinny one looks to be 4,000 sqft .. is there a new shake shack that is as small as 2,000 sqft ..

My understanding is that Simon (Penn Square owner) found out about the Alo deal and killed it.

Basically used their leverage as landlord of many Alo locations. Not sure if Alo will be going to Penn Square instead.

Simon had to have been furious when OAK took Pottery Barn.

Dang, this is soooo disappointing to hear. I was super excited to have an Alo store here. Ask anyone in the fitness industry and Alo is tops for apparel. And if you look at the business at Lulu and Athleta over at Classen Curve, it's clear we have the market here to support it.

I honestly thought it was too good to be true when I saw the building wraps go up at Oak, and ... well, to quote Ian Malcom, "I hate being right all the time."

Really hope Oak can find something comparable in the apparel world to fill that spot. Maybe find an up-and-coming brand? Let's just make sure we keep it a secret from Simon until the ink is officially dry.

Alo may be going to Penn Square; it's not for sure they won't be coming to OKC at all.

The emergence of Oak in that location is one of the best things that could have happened to PSM, for what that’s worth.

Restaurants and Retail: Strength in numbers is generally part of a winning strategy.