And, like you mentioned earlier, OKC's Penn Square Dillards are both basically at Nordstrom's level. Dillards as a whole, no. But OKC's has their nicest brands (literally a whole section of Creed cologne, for example, that sells VERY well).

OKC (or Columbus. Pittsburgh or San Antonio, for that matter) may not have any of the brands he mentioned, but those are very niche (not Common, like he thinks), and are not indicative of OKC being a poor retail market. i don't know where he is coming from.

lol my comment about Nordstrom was just I'd personally like one, and I don't think its outrageous, I'm not asking for a Neimans, but to think that OKC Dillards or Von Maur is up to that level is just not in any way true at all. It's just not. I'm like, is this the attitude that explains why a lot of older men here look like their wives buy there clothes? hahaha

Point is, I'm just giving you another point of view, the small stores (Yes, I go to Altons, By E, CK and Co, Bosquet, Mr Ooleys, Steven Giles, 1032 Space and on) have a place and many are great, and no not just chinese made trash at all. By E is quite genuinely one of the best and most fashion forward small retailers in the central US and doing excellent work. But, first of all, ALL large cities have those too, and we have 'Mostly relied on small independent stores' because we have historically been passed over by retailers and I thought we had mostly convinced ourselves that was changing. When it comes to this big development, it is a lot of lame old stuff. You guys get comically defensive when it comes to this, I mean listen, you're acting like "retail is dead" in a thread about a retail development that is costing hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm just saying look at other large developments that have come online in comparable markets in the last few year and look at the brands being offered.

You can pat the city on the head and say this is fine, we should be pleased, we have all the things you want, and then get excited about another burger chain, but I'm born and raised here, travel to small, medium and large markets regularly and spend a good amount of that time shopping for clothes, and as much as anyone in this forum I can say with pretty good information, our retail is pretty out of date. I mean maybe, as I have gotten a lot older while reading the threads in this forum, many of you have ended up in the crosshairs of Tommy Bahama (who's median target demo is literally men 59), but for a lot of the younger professional people we are supposedly so excited about moving here these days, the announcements at Oak are very very eyeroll. I mean, I laughed out loud at the comments in this thread about how exciting the restaurant at Tommy Bahama will be.

You guys complain about so many things needing to be better and hoping for more, All I'm saying is for as much money as is being spent on this and as good as the design is, it is a bummer to see that the retail announcements are just so uninteresting.

I mean my wife laughed and was like, I think a ton of people would just be happy here if we could at least move up to Everlane level, which, talk about NOT NICHE, is basically just the replacement for the Gap.

She also lol'd and said, guys, we just got an Urban Outfitters about 10 years after losing its relevance and about 25 years after it opened in Austin.

Basically believe whatever you want, but the retail announcements of Oak are so far just same ole same ole and humorously dated

Look, it's really just like, remember back in 2008 how we felt about the grocery market here? there was no sprouts, no whole foods etc?

The retail market here is very much like that too. Mr Ooleys and Altons sell nice things, for old people, Dillards sells popular things, if you just want like, a good shirt for work. But like, we all get excited about how we are moving in to being a larger market and the retail announcements from the Oak development are definitely NOT that. So far it is like, announcing a brand new batch of the remaining parts of the dying Utica Square, and NOT like a thriving new retail development. We are not getting the kind of attention from retailers that are actually getting attention from younger affluent consumers, we just aren't. I don't see how you all as people that care about Oklahoma City don't see how swooping in and saying "things are good enough" isn;t the exact same old tired nonsense you've all heard about the parts of an economy YOU care about for years as well, I mean, I have to hear about how cool and different a specific new Golf store is despite us having multiple golf stores, has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're actually just no that in to fashionable clothing and household accesories and maybe others are?

^

Wow.

I think most of us on this forum wear clothes our wives buy for us.........

I mean my wife laughed and was like, I think a ton of people would just be happy here if we could at least move up to Everlane level, which, talk about NOT NICHE, is basically just the replacement for the Gap.

She also lol'd and said, guys, we just got an Urban Outfitters about 10 years after losing its relevance and about 25 years after it opened in Austin.

Basically believe whatever you want, but the retail announcements of Oak are so far just same ole same ole and humorously dated

Look, it's really just like, remember back in 2008 how we felt about the grocery market here? there was no sprouts, no whole foods etc?

The retail market here is very much like that too. Mr Ooleys and Altons sell nice things, for old people, Dillards sells popular things, if you just want like, a good shirt for work. But like, we all get excited about how we are moving in to being a larger market and the retail announcements from the Oak development are definitely NOT that. So far it is like, announcing a brand new batch of the remaining parts of the dying Utica Square, and NOT like a thriving new retail development. We are not getting the kind of attention from retailers that are actually getting attention from younger affluent consumers, we just aren't. I don't see how you all as people that care about Oklahoma City don't see how swooping in and saying "things are good enough" isn;t the exact same old tired nonsense you've all heard about the parts of an economy YOU care about for years as well, I mean, I have to hear about how cool and different a specific new Golf store is despite us having multiple golf stores, has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're actually just no that in to fashionable clothing and household accessories and maybe others are?

This was a fun read, the backhanded comments and all.

I think most of us on this forum wear clothes our wives buy for us.........

Apparently we need to travel more :rolleyes:

I think most of us on this forum wear clothes our wives buy for us.........

Maybe the old guys do. But gender doesn’t equal taste.

lmao :o

Maybe the old guys do. But gender doesn’t equal taste.

My life began to flourish once my mom stopped picking out my clothes.

I mean my wife laughed and was like, I think a ton of people would just be happy here if we could at least move up to Everlane level, which, talk about NOT NICHE, is basically just the replacement for the Gap.

She also lol'd and said, guys, we just got an Urban Outfitters about 10 years after losing its relevance and about 25 years after it opened in Austin.

Basically believe whatever you want, but the retail announcements of Oak are so far just same ole same ole and humorously dated

Look, it's really just like, remember back in 2008 how we felt about the grocery market here? there was no sprouts, no whole foods etc?

The retail market here is very much like that too. Mr Ooleys and Altons sell nice things, for old people, Dillards sells popular things, if you just want like, a good shirt for work. But like, we all get excited about how we are moving in to being a larger market and the retail announcements from the Oak development are definitely NOT that. So far it is like, announcing a brand new batch of the remaining parts of the dying Utica Square, and NOT like a thriving new retail development. We are not getting the kind of attention from retailers that are actually getting attention from younger affluent consumers, we just aren't. I don't see how you all as people that care about Oklahoma City don't see how swooping in and saying "things are good enough" isn;t the exact same old tired nonsense you've all heard about the parts of an economy YOU care about for years as well, I mean, I have to hear about how cool and different a specific new Golf store is despite us having multiple golf stores, has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're actually just no that in to fashionable clothing and household accesories and maybe others are?

Has it ever occurred to YOU that your feelings on shopping are a bit fringe and likely more specific than for the majority of shoppers, especially OKC shoppers? lol I get it that shopping is clearly you and your wife's "thing." That's great and all, but surely you can understand that maybe, just maybe, you are an outlier and your shopping proclivities don't necessarily translate to the masses in OKC?

Sounds like you are mad the shopping in OKC isn't up to LA/NYC/Miami standards. Which is pretty ridiculous, to be honest. Read the room, man.

I mean Pete, I've been here for the long haul, but I'm 100% serious, this is a category that is constantly a "we're lucky to get what we get" consensus from you guys, and yeah sorry, it's very lacking and just because it's something most of you don't care about doesn't mean it isn't real.

If you know of a newer retail brand that has openned a store in OKC in the last 20 years I'd love to hear about it but there isn't one and all the newer offerings have been ones that even mid tier markets have had for decades. It's an easy to see easy to understand thing, and being responded to that I just don't understand and I am just "comparing us to LA or Dallas" is equally backhanded and insulting.

I do actually know what I am talking about, do understand the demos and size of our market, do understand the landscape of modern retail and do have a good understanding of the types of retailers we can support, and still, we are quite passed over and behind. So yeah I got snarky. lol and yeah I think your attitudes are largely because this is not something you care about, but it is something a lot of younger people moving to cities care about and even something site selector QOL surveys care about as well. Sorry if it is offensive to say that Tommy Bamaha is something better suited near a retirement home in Florida but fact is, that it is.


^

Wow.

Has it ever occurred to YOU that your feelings on shopping are a bit fringe and likely more specific than for the majority of shoppers, especially OKC shoppers? lol I get it that shopping is clearly you and your wife's "thing." That's great and all, but surely you can understand that maybe, just maybe, you are an outlier and your shopping proclivities don't necessarily translate to the masses in OKC?

Sounds like you are mad the shopping in OKC isn't up to LA/NYC/Miami standards. Which is pretty ridiculous, to be honest. Read the room, man.

I am reading the room, that's the problem. I'm like, what do you guys all live in deep suburbs or something?!?! I see these products on people in OKC all the time, and they are not even remotely fringe. The fact is, this city IS actually fashionable and much larger than it used to be, and it can support a lot of the aforementioned brands, and DOES, they are currently just spending that money, on those brands elsewhere. The problem is in perception of the market externally and we had that same problem in other sectors that we have come a long way to correct. This development is absolutely the kind that should be making significant progress in this category and all I am saying is I am quite dissapointed so far with the direction it is pointing.

Calm down guys, there will still be plenty of khaki shorts and OU Polo shirts (I promise this is my last back handed jab hahaha)

I am reading the room, that's the problem. I'm like, what do you guys all live in deep suburbs or something?!?! I see these products on people in OKC all the time, and they are not even remotely fringe. The fact is, this city IS actually fashionable and much larger than it used to be, and it can support a lot of the aforementioned brands, and DOES, they are currently just spending that money, on those brands elsewhere. The problem is in perception of the market externally and we had that same problem in other sectors that we have come a long way to correct. This development is absolutely the kind that should be making significant progress in this category and all I am saying is I am quite dissapointed so far with the direction it is pointing.

Calm down guys, there will still be plenty of khaki shorts and OU Polo shirts (I promise this is my last back handed jab hahaha)

If you're going to be a jerk, at least do it with correct spelling and punctuation. Nothing says bully more than looking foolish while trying to dog on someone.

I am reading the room, that's the problem. I'm like, what do you guys all live in deep suburbs or something?!?! I see these products on people in OKC all the time, and they are not even remotely fringe. The fact is, this city IS actually fashionable and much larger than it used to be, and it can support a lot of the aforementioned brands, and DOES, they are currently just spending that money, on those brands elsewhere. The problem is in perception of the market externally and we had that same problem in other sectors that we have come a long way to correct. This development is absolutely the kind that should be making significant progress in this category and all I am saying is I am quite dissapointed so far with the direction it is pointing.

Calm down guys, there will still be plenty of khaki shorts and OU Polo shirts (I promise this is my last back handed jab hahaha)

Don't you think there's a reason why these companies are passing on OKC? lol. It's not because we are bad mouthing them on the forum. It's because they don't view it as a viable market yet. While young people from OKC are staying in OKC more than before, most of them are still running away as soon as they can. Especially the ones that shop at the places you mention. Do you think these stores are inquiring about OKC and the Mayor and Chamber are turning them away? That's not how this works.

And, easy on the khaki shorts and OU polo reference. I also occasionally wear Thunder polos as well, so there! LOL

On edit: And, BTW, the majority of people in OKC live in the suburbs. lol.

I mean Pete, I've been here for the long haul, but I'm 100% serious, this is a category that is constantly a "we're lucky to get what we get" consensus from you guys, and yeah sorry, it's very lacking and just because it's something most of you don't care about doesn't mean it isn't real.

If you know of a newer retail brand that has openned a store in OKC in the last 20 years I'd love to hear about it but there isn't one and all the newer offerings have been ones that even mid tier markets have had for decades. It's an easy to see easy to understand thing, and being responded to that I just don't understand and I am just "comparing us to LA or Dallas" is equally backhanded and insulting.

I do actually know what I am talking about, do understand the demos and size of our market, do understand the landscape of modern retail and do have a good understanding of the types of retailers we can support, and still, we are quite passed over and behind. So yeah I got snarky. lol and yeah I think your attitudes are largely because this is not something you care about, but it is something a lot of younger people moving to cities care about and even something site selector QOL surveys care about as well. Sorry if it is offensive to say that Tommy Bamaha is something better suited near a retirement home in Florida but fact is, that it is.

I'm done with this discussion -- best wishes to you.

lol at anyone that acts like the rents at the Spaniard can be supported but think we can't support a store that can sell me an actual modern suit or shirt not made in china, or sustainably produced officewear basics, or like can even move in to 2005 with a Crate and Barrel.

You guys are funny

I am reading the room, that's the problem. I'm like, what do you guys all live in deep suburbs or something?!?! I see these products on people in OKC all the time, and they are not even remotely fringe. The fact is, this city IS actually fashionable and much larger than it used to be, and it can support a lot of the aforementioned brands, and DOES, they are currently just spending that money, on those brands elsewhere. The problem is in perception of the market externally and we had that same problem in other sectors that we have come a long way to correct. This development is absolutely the kind that should be making significant progress in this category and all I am saying is I am quite dissapointed so far with the direction it is pointing.

Calm down guys, there will still be plenty of khaki shorts and OU Polo shirts (I promise this is my last back handed jab hahaha)

As much as what you are saying makes sense, you leave out the fact that most younger generations make purchases online. Younger affluent generations are less likely to shop on-site at a store. Even our local small boutique stores in the Plaza and Midtown have told me they often sell more online than they do in-store. Most of the people in lower generations can not afford the brands you talk about. Yes, Urban Outfitters is outdated, but even if it was still a hip spot, no one who wears that style could afford it. Your statements only make you sound like someone with less experience and knowledge about retail markets.

I just looked up Everlane that you mentioned earlier.....

They have 11 worldwide locations. 11. They are in:

Georgetown
King of Prussia
Prince Street, New York
Brooklyn
Boston
Austin
LA
Palo Alto
San Francisco
Seattle
Tysons Corner

And, THIS is a place you are upset we don't have in OKC? LOL. Dude, c'mon.

Again, it's great that shopping at the niche/trendy/young places is your thing. But, at this point you are far better off taking pride in the fact that you are a unique style in OKC versus being upset that OKC doesn't have a store that about 50 people in the city would actually shop at. Just saying. Enjoy your trips to Austin to buy your clothes, and enjoy that you are a "cut above" in the city where you live. In fact you should want no part of those stores here because then all your peers will dress just like you and do you really want that? lol

BTW, I live near the beach and love wearing linen now. So, thanks for the head's up. lol. I'll probably pick up some stuff from their online store. Looks nice.

I just looked up Everlane that you mentioned earlier.....

They have 11 worldwide locations. 11. They are in:

Georgetown
King of Prussia
Prince Street, New York
Brooklyn
Boston
Austin
LA
Palo Alto
San Francisco
Seattle
Tysons Corner

And, THIS is a place you are upset we don't have in OKC? LOL. Dude, c'mon.

Again, it's great that shopping at the niche/trendy/young places is your thing. But, at this point you are far better off taking pride in the fact that you are a unique style in OKC versus being upset that OKC doesn't have a store that about 50 people in the city would actually shop at. Just saying. Enjoy your trips to Austin to buy your clothes, and enjoy that you are a "cut above" in the city where you live. In fact you should want no part of those stores here because then all your peers will dress just like you and do you really want that? lol

BTW, I live near the beach and love wearing linen now. So, thanks for the head's up. lol. I'll probably pick up some stuff from their online store. Looks nice.

Everlane is also dirt cheap. The fact he is including them in his posts is a shame.

Everlane is also dirt cheap. The fact he is including them in his posts is a shame.

Actually that was my wife, lol

and I'm glad you found the one that is mostly an online brand to pick at, again, you guys are funny

Don't you think there's a reason why these companies are passing on OKC? lol. It's not because we are bad mouthing them on the forum. It's because they don't view it as a viable market yet. While young people from OKC are staying in OKC more than before, most of them are still running away as soon as they can. Especially the ones that shop at the places you mention. Do you think these stores are inquiring about OKC and the Mayor and Chamber are turning them away? That's not how this works.

And, easy on the khaki shorts and OU polo reference. I also occasionally wear Thunder polos as well, so there! LOL

On edit: And, BTW, the majority of people in OKC live in the suburbs. lol.

ok so there are a few things of note here, and really I won't be snarky about it.

1) Yes there are reasons. Obviously our national political perception is pretty problematic, and is a factor. But mostly I do think it is partially that the developer hasn't made the case well enough and it is coupled with a pretty out-dated perception of the market.

2) While most people 'In OKC' live in suburbs, nearly all of the large amount of growth the metro area saw during the covid years was centered around the city proper and urban core. Thing is I have been a home owner in the inner city for nearly 20 years and the growth both in numbers and in property value and income level in the urban core compared to many suburbs (with the glaring exception being the runaway monster that is deer creek) has been enormous. This city is, in fact, much more urban than it was in the white flight, post Penn square city that many of us in this forum grew up in

3) While we do still have a significant brain drain in the young, a lot of them are coming back too, many in the key target demos of mid tier retailers, and many to live in the city proper. Sure after they went and started carreers in other cities and going to schools in other cities and coming back with tastes and things they take for granted from other cities.

I'm a snarky person, and sure, my punctuation could be better (have you written a few hundred words impulsively on a phone recently, sheesh it sucks) but my point is a very real one and it is a category that should be taken a bit more seriously. I do think the failure is largely in the hands of developers and who they are courting for this project, but I could also be very wrong. I'm mostly just expressing my disappointment with watching a large scale, attractive retail park being built, a thing I personally would enjoy and use regularly (I live like 3 minutes away) and then reading the list of announcements only to see nothing at all.

These really are far more common brands than you think, and the general culture, styling and expectations of retailers has changed a lot too. I just don't see any of that in this new project and I really hope it gets better. I'm sure there are still a lot of bays to fill and I'm sure there is still a lot of possibility.

But man, having lived in this town my whole life, can't we just get passed the immediate response of everything is good enough.

ok so there are a few things of note here, and really I won't be snarky about it.

1) Yes there are reasons. Obviously our national political perception is pretty problematic, and is a factor. But mostly I do think it is partially that the developer hasn't made the case well enough and it is coupled with a pretty out-dated perception of the market.

2) While most people 'In OKC' live in suburbs, nearly all of the large amount of growth the metro area saw during the covid years was centered around the city proper and urban core. Thing is I have been a home owner in the inner city for nearly 20 years and the growth both in numbers and in property value and income level in the urban core compared to many suburbs (with the glaring exception being the runaway monster that is deer creek) has been enormous. This city is, in fact, much more urban than it was in the white flight, post Penn square city that many of us in this forum grew up in

3) While we do still have a significant brain drain in the young, a lot of them are coming back too, many in the key target demos of mid tier retailers, and many to live in the city proper. Sure after they went and started carreers in other cities and going to schools in other cities and coming back with tastes and things they take for granted from other cities.

I'm a snarky person, and sure, my punctuation could be better (have you written a few hundred words impulsively on a phone recently, sheesh it sucks) but my point is a very real one and it is a category that should be taken a bit more seriously. I do think the failure is largely in the hands of developers and who they are courting for this project, but I could also be very wrong. I'm mostly just expressing my disappointment with watching a large scale, attractive retail park being built, a thing I personally would enjoy and use regularly (I live like 3 minutes away) and then reading the list of announcements only to see nothing at all.

These really are far more common brands than you think, and the general culture, styling and expectations of retailers has changed a lot too. I just don't see any of that in this new project and I really hope it gets better. I'm sure there are still a lot of bays to fill and I'm sure there is still a lot of possibility.

But man, having lived in this town my whole life, can't we just get passed the immediate response of everything is good enough.

I don't want to look back at all this nonsense to see if you actually named the retailers besides Nordstrom that you are speaking of. Please lay down the knowledge you have on what retailers would thrive here that are not here yet but are doing well in other similar markets. Thanks!

ok so there are a few things of note here, and really I won't be snarky about it.

1) Yes there are reasons. Obviously our national political perception is pretty problematic, and is a factor. But mostly I do think it is partially that the developer hasn't made the case well enough and it is coupled with a pretty out-dated perception of the market.

2) While most people 'In OKC' live in suburbs, nearly all of the large amount of growth the metro area saw during the covid years was centered around the city proper and urban core. Thing is I have been a home owner in the inner city for nearly 20 years and the growth both in numbers and in property value and income level in the urban core compared to many suburbs (with the glaring exception being the runaway monster that is deer creek) has been enormous. This city is, in fact, much more urban than it was in the white flight, post Penn square city that many of us in this forum grew up in

3) While we do still have a significant brain drain in the young, a lot of them are coming back too, many in the key target demos of mid tier retailers, and many to live in the city proper. Sure after they went and started carreers in other cities and going to schools in other cities and coming back with tastes and things they take for granted from other cities.

I'm a snarky person, and sure, my punctuation could be better (have you written a few hundred words impulsively on a phone recently, sheesh it sucks) but my point is a very real one and it is a category that should be taken a bit more seriously. I do think the failure is largely in the hands of developers and who they are courting for this project, but I could also be very wrong. I'm mostly just expressing my disappointment with watching a large scale, attractive retail park being built, a thing I personally would enjoy and use regularly (I live like 3 minutes away) and then reading the list of announcements only to see nothing at all.

These really are far more common brands than you think, and the general culture, styling and expectations of retailers has changed a lot too. I just don't see any of that in this new project and I really hope it gets better. I'm sure there are still a lot of bays to fill and I'm sure there is still a lot of possibility.

But man, having lived in this town my whole life, can't we just get passed the immediate response of everything is good enough.

The problem isn't with the developer, the problem lies with the retailer. Look at Costco, Anthropologie, Trader Joe's, just to name a few. They all went to Tulsa first because the demographics in the area supported it. Then, when they decided to open in OKC, all expected projections were blown out of the water in terms of success. The Chamber is always looking to add new retailers to OKC, there is a person who does just that.

So, don't blame the developer for what you perceive as them not doing a good enough job, when it is really the retailer that is turning down the chance to be in OKC. I know if a Louis Vuitton store came to OKC, it would do really well. Do you think developers and the Chamber haven't reached out to them to get them to come to OKC? Or is it more likely they have been reached out to and have said no?

If Louis Vuitton (or Prada or Gucci or whoever) come here and sell a nice OU outfit (or maybe Thunder), let me know. I will go see if I can afford it (or more to the point, if I want to pay that much for it). I bet it would look great on me!

The problem isn't with the developer, the problem lies with the retailer. Look at Costco, Anthropologie, Trader Joe's, just to name a few. They all went to Tulsa first because the demographics in the area supported it. Then, when they decided to open in OKC, all expected projections were blown out of the water in terms of success. The Chamber is always looking to add new retailers to OKC, there is a person who does just that.

So, don't blame the developer for what you perceive as them not doing a good enough job, when it is really the retailer that is turning down the chance to be in OKC. I know if a Louis Vuitton store came to OKC, it would do really well. Do you think developers and the Chamber haven't reached out to them to get them to come to OKC? Or is it more likely they have been reached out to and have said no?

Yes, but this is the outdated perception I'm talking about. The Tulsa market has long been the first to market for retail, due to it's proximity to a lot of small markets in Arkansas and Southern Missouri as well as a wealthy population in Tulsa itself, and further distance from a first tier shopping market in Dallas, but as time has passed Oklahoma City has grown MUCH more than Tulsa and clearly now has a lot of demographics on it's side.

But what I'm talking about is mid tier offerings that are becoming common in middle income but thriving metros much like ours. I do think an LV store may do ok here, but I'm really talking about clothing brands and retailers that are more like what Whole Foods represented, not things that are unaffordable but things that are actually quite atainable but represent a more modern and younger sector of the market that we have grown significantly in, but haven't seen the retail keep up with. It is easy for us to visibly have the support for a store who's own target demo is a 55+ white male in a 6 figure household, but I don't think a lot of the growth we've had here the last few years are households like that and I don't think the data visible from outside the state shows that either.

I'm not like beating up on the developer and I said just now, maybe that's not at all the problem, again, I've just been looking for updates and it's just been like, aww man, this is just stuff we already have covered with redundancy in our market.

The point wasn't to point fingers, the point was to say, it's a bummer that this huge flag ship type development hasn't attracted any real fresh blood in to the market, it was to say, it's a bummer that all the progress we've had over the last several years is still not translating to modern retail brands wanting to expand in to this market. (and then yes being responded to by, what do you mean we already have all the good stuff, was pretty irritating)

Yes, but this is the outdated perception I'm talking about. The Tulsa market has long been the first to market for retail, due to it's proximity to a lot of small markets in Arkansas and Southern Missouri as well as a wealthy population in Tulsa itself, and further distance from a first tier shopping market in Dallas, but as time has passed Oklahoma City has grown MUCH more than Tulsa and clearly now has a lot of demographics on it's side.

This is a completely false narrative (Tulsa gets stores first) that is easily disproven:

OKC v. Tulsa Retail (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37659&p=780943#post780943)

I just looked up Everlane that you mentioned earlier.....

They have 11 worldwide locations. 11. They are in:

Georgetown
King of Prussia
Prince Street, New York
Brooklyn
Boston
Austin
LA
Palo Alto
San Francisco
Seattle
Tysons Corner

And, THIS is a place you are upset we don't have in OKC? LOL. Dude, c'mon.

Again, it's great that shopping at the niche/trendy/young places is your thing. But, at this point you are far better off taking pride in the fact that you are a unique style in OKC versus being upset that OKC doesn't have a store that about 50 people in the city would actually shop at. Just saying. Enjoy your trips to Austin to buy your clothes, and enjoy that you are a "cut above" in the city where you live. In fact you should want no part of those stores here because then all your peers will dress just like you and do you really want that? lol

BTW, I live near the beach and love wearing linen now. So, thanks for the head's up. lol. I'll probably pick up some stuff from their online store. Looks nice.

lol none of this is young and trendy, I am 43 years old, I am a product designer and I've never lived outside of Oklahoma City,

This is a list of most popular mens brands from Mens Health a VERY mainstream magazine ....

https://www.menshealth.com/style/g35280760/best-mens-clothing-brands/

hmmm recognize any of these brands?

Also if you like Linen basics, Everlane's offerings are actually pretty poorly made, but both Buck Mason and Todd Snyder make excellent linen garments that are very modern, some even made in first world countries. If you REALLY want good linen clothes, go with Georgia (you live there not here right?) based Sid Mashburn

This is a completely false narrative (Tulsa gets stores first) that is easily disproven:

OKC v. Tulsa Retail (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37659&p=780943#post780943)

Actually, I completely agree Pete, it hasn't been true in a long time which was the point I was making, it used to be true, but it hasn't been in a while. OKC is absolutely the choice destination these days and will be from here to come, which is why, again, I am disappointed to see the list for Oak

Actually, I completely agree Pete, it hasn't been true in a long time which was the point I was making, it used to be true, but it hasn't been in a while. OKC is absolutely the choice destination these days and will be from here to come, which is why, again, I am disappointed to see the list for Oak

You're calling OAK a strikeout before it even steps up to the plate. It has announced 3 new to market retailers/restaurants that are present in all of the cities you had brought up. So the fact they got them for OKC, by your own criteria, should make it a success. But you keep moving goalposts to always make it a failure.

Actually, I completely agree Pete, it hasn't been true in a long time which was the point I was making, it used to be true, but it hasn't been in a while. OKC is absolutely the choice destination these days and will be from here to come, which is why, again, I am disappointed to see the list for Oak

I know the developer of OAK well and we've even had several conversations about the retailers they should target. He gave me a long list of new-to-market, upscale stores that have already declined and I suggested a few more to try.

Just like Classen Curve, they know the universe of desired retailers and they hit them all and make their best pitch. It should go without saying that of course they ALL want the most high-end stores they can possibly attract and it's not like a general consumer is going to be aware of stores they don't already have on their respective prospecting lists.

CC has brought in a ton of new, national retailers and OAK has already announced several more and they have about 20 more to announce over the next year and beyond. Chisholm Creek is working that same long, list as are a ton of other developments and developers.


Also, I was a commercial real estate broker in OKC specializing in retail properties for almost a decade. Every single broker here -- like I once did -- actively solicits stores and restaurants that are not yet in this market. It's a big part of how they make their living. The City and State also have dedicated employees who do nothing but try and recruit these businesses. Developers, brokers, and economic development staff work on this 24/7 and even go to national conventions to have meetings and make relationships. As one of hundreds examples, there were tons of people involved in bringing Costco to OKC and that included their local broker (who is a former colleague) and about 10 years of work, where they put a property under LOI, backed out, came back and then took forever to ink the final deal.

One of the reasons that OKCTalk is first to report on almost anything new coming to town is because of my background, experience, and connections in the retail and commercial real estate community.

So, the idea that developers, brokers, economic development staff and the general public are somehow not motivated to get all these things you want is simply and emphatically preposterous.

This has been and will continue to be an ongoing process and you will never know any part of that until a deal is done. And I can almost guarantee you that any single retailer you desire has been approached to come to OKC dozens of times and from many angles.

In OAK, the retailers that have been announced so far are:

Capital Grille
Restoration Hardware
Arhaus
Pottery Barn
Williams Sonoma
Tommy Bahama
Mesero

Of those, CG, Arhaus, Tommy Bahama Marlin Bar and Mesero are all new to Oklahoma. Tulsa has WS, RH and WS. So, 4 out of 7 are new the state, let alone the city. And this thing is supposed to be 250,000 sf of retail space. I am not sure how much those seven take up, but there is so much more to go...

^

You'll see about another 10-15 new-to-market retailers at OAK in the near future.

And the list at Classen Curve is already quite long and they are just now starting construction to expand.

I know the developer of OAK well and we've even had several conversations about the retailers they should target. He gave me a long list of new-to-market, upscale stores that have already declined and I suggested a few more to try.

Just like Classen Curve, they know the universe of desired retailers and they hit them all and make their best pitch. It should go without saying that of course they ALL want the most high-end stores they can possibly attract and it's not like a general consumer is going to be aware of stores they don't already have on their respective prospecting lists.

CC has brought in a ton of new, national retailers and OAK has already announced several more and they have about 20 more to announce over the next year and beyond. Chisholm Creek is working that same long, list as are a ton of other developments and developers.


Also, I was a commercial real estate broker in OKC specializing in retail properties for almost a decade. Every single broker here -- like I once did -- actively solicits stores and restaurants that are not yet in this market. It's a big part of how they make their living. The City and State also have dedicated employees who do nothing but try and recruit these businesses. Developers, brokers, and economic development staff work on this 24/7 and even go to national conventions to have meetings and make relationships. As one of hundreds examples, there were tons of people involved in bringing Costco to OKC and that included their local broker (who is a former colleague) and about 10 years of work, where they put a property under LOI, backed out, came back and then took forever to ink the final deal.

One of the reasons that OKCTalk is first to report on almost anything new coming to town is because of my background, experience, and connections in the retail and commercial real estate community.

So, the idea that developers, brokers, economic development staff and the general public are somehow not motivated to get all these things you want is simply and emphatically preposterous.

This has been and will continue to be an ongoing process and you will never know any part of that until a deal is done.

Oh for sure, yeah I was assuming as much, like I said my frustration was not with people or developers or orgs, it's with the realities of the market and the perception of the city itself. It's with the big announcements being brands we already have covered well that represent the past and not the future. Most of my snarkiness in this thread is clearly aimed at being told basic a$$ mall brands are too trendy or unique for the largest city in Oklahoma where they are 1000% already popular and already on the mind of the public.

I do think that Oak is the first genuinely exciting development, and first one that actually looks up to par with larger market 'lifestyle centers' or whatever we call them now, that we've had in this city in a VERY long time. I know good people are working on it and to be fair to me I literally said, I may be wrong in the case of OAK. I love so so much about the details and appearance of this project. It's just as a consumer and not a crazy edgy one, but a very urban one, the announcements so far have been massively disappointing considering the budget, scale and ambition. So much of our retail developments still feel like playing catch up and I'm still very hopeful this is changing little by little.

Like I said, I know there are a lot of bays left to be leased and I'm excited to see what comes next. I just really hope it gets better. Because yes, in my dreams, I'd like to be able to try on the next suit I have to buy for a wedding, without having to drive out of State like I literally just did a few weeks ago.

^

You are not giving enough credit to Classen Curve. Almost every single store has turned over in just the last five years and virtually every current tenant is a nice, new-to-market store. This is directly due to Washington Prime buying the property and bringing their national relationships to bear.

And similarly, newish RH Galleries with a rooftop restaurant have been smash hits in tony parts of Chicago and Dallas. It's going to be a big deal here. Arhaus is very upscale. I don't like Tommy Bahama but I bet their bar and restaurant will be a cool and fun spot.


The best way to get the high-end stores is for them to see others succeeding here. That is a long process, especially given our starting point which was almost zero.

2) While most people 'In OKC' live in suburbs, nearly all of the large amount of growth the metro area saw during the covid years was centered around the city proper and urban core. Thing is I have been a home owner in the inner city for nearly 20 years and the growth both in numbers and in property value and income level in the urban core compared to many suburbs (with the glaring exception being the runaway monster that is deer creek) has been enormous. This city is, in fact, much more urban than it was in the white flight, post Penn square city that many of us in this forum grew up in

This is sort of besides the main point of this thread, but this just isn't true. Of course the core has seen a major renaissance, home values have skyrocketed (even relative to the more general increase during Covid), etc. But population wise, the large amount (majority?) of the city/metro's growth in the last 10-15 years has been in the western suburbs of eastern Canadian County. These graphics (from https://data.oklahoman.com/census/total-population/total-housing-units-change/canadian-county-oklahoma/050-40017/#cmap)—sorry, I couldn't figure out how to show both counties at once, but the scales are the same—make that clear. While Oklahoma County did experience a larger increase in absolute population, a lot of that growth was in Edmond/Deer Creek.

Oklahoma County total population change [%] (2010-2020)
https://i.imgur.com/HXhg4eL.png

Oklahoma County total housing units change [%] (2010-2020)
https://i.imgur.com/fRBr8Zl.png

Canadian County total population change [%] (2010-2020)
https://i.imgur.com/uyu8a1Q.png

Canadian County total housing units change [%] (2010-2020)
https://i.imgur.com/d8QW0My.png

Total population change:
Canadian County: ~39k (+33.6%)
Oklahoma County ~77k (+10.8%)

During the Covid years you cite, I could only find county-level data (rather than census tracks). But using Oklahoma vs. Canadian Counties as rough proxies, between 2020 and 2023 Oklahoma County grew by ~12,000 while Canadian County grew by ~22,000.

There are complicated reasons for this that don't mean to take away from the strides the urban core has made (smaller family sizes, shifting core age demographics, etc). And the census data isn't perfect. But it is unequivocally not the case that all of the city's recent growth is in the core at the expense of the suburbs.

^

You are not giving enough credit to Classen Curve. Almost every single store has turned over in just the last five years and virtually every current tenant is a nice, new-to-market store. This is directly due to Washington Prime buying the property and bringing their national relationships to bear.

And similarly, newish RH Galleries with a rooftop restaurant have been smash hits in tony parts of Chicago and Dallas. It's going to be a big deal here. Arhaus is very upscale. I don't like Tommy Bahama but I bet their bar and restaurant will be a cool and fun spot.


The best way to get the high-end stores is for them to see others succeeding here. That is a long process, especially given our starting point which was almost zero.

This is absolutely fair, Washington Prime has made Classen Curve the best for sure, it is honestly by a mile, the only shopping center in OKC that I regularly buy things from. I mean again, it wasn't really that I wasn't giving them enough credit, I was simply stating that the announcements of Oak were dissapointing, and that our department stores are pretty bad. I think Classen Curve has been a definite glimmer of hope. I still think the larger department store issue is a significant one and I will hold out a dream of having something along the lines of a Nordstrom or Saint Bernard or like, man, something, I mean, I'm not asking for a Neimans or anything, just something with ANY newer product lines. I know the RH will be very popular and so will the Tommy Bahama, as will the restaurants, but they are all kind of disappointingly on brand for OKC so far and I hope to aspire to be better or at least to be growing in scale and in vision.

I will also say YES Arhaus is a great get and the absolutely most encouraging of the list. It's definitely a sign that the concept is facing in the right direction for me for sure. I Will gladly go when it is openned.

I know the RH will be very popular and so will the Tommy Bahama, as will the restaurants, but they are all kind of disappointingly on brand for OKC so far and I hope to aspire to be better or at least to be growing in scale and in vision.

They are both big steps in the right direction.

You can't get to where you want OKC to be without these types of moves.

This is absolutely fair, Washington Prime has made Classen Curve the best for sure, it is honestly by a mile, the only shopping center in OKC that I regularly buy things from. I mean again, it wasn't really that I wasn't giving them enough credit, I was simply stating that the announcements of Oak were dissapointing, and that our department stores are pretty bad. I think Classen Curve has been a definite glimmer of hope. I still think the larger department store issue is a significant one and I will hold out a dream of having something along the lines of a Nordstrom or Saint Bernard or like, man, something, I mean, I'm not asking for a Neimans or anything, just something with ANY newer product lines. I know the RH will be very popular and so will the Tommy Bahama, as will the restaurants, but they are all kind of disappointingly on brand for OKC so far and I hope to aspire to be better or at least to be growing in scale and in vision.

I will also say YES Arhaus is a great get and the absolutely most encouraging of the list. It's definitely a sign that the concept is facing in the right direction for me for sure. I Will gladly go when it is openned.

You were thinking that OKC would skip RH and Arhaus and go directly to Gucci, Prada and Fendi?

Shout out Value Village Thrift Store in Del City. Them threads are built to last.

I think we need more of the ultra-high end brands like Nike, Callaway, and Polo... Or even the tier under that, like Walter Hagen, Adidas, and Reebok.

The building permit was just filed for Mesero.

The pace is really going to accelerate at this development as everyone is aiming to open this fall.

I'm just gonna avoid that whole mess on pages 63/64. Anyway; are there any listed or scheduled improvements coming to the the Penn/Expressway block for pedestrians? Speaking out loud but it seems rather hard to justify going from Penn Square to OAK when there's 15 lanes of traffic to navigate.

Man, that a lot of work. Here how I live 7 days a week.

Sketchers step-ins

Dockers...pleated front with the Fat-O-Matic waist

Members Mark golf shirt

Garanimals for geezers

I'm just gonna avoid that whole mess on pages 63/64. Anyway; are there any listed or scheduled improvements coming to the the Penn/Expressway block for pedestrians? Speaking out loud but it seems rather hard to justify going from Penn Square to OAK when there's 15 lanes of traffic to navigate.

I was just onsite at the OAK this morning for a tour. they are trying to get the MAPS4 Will Rogers trail to run along there. Not sure if it will happen but there is a chance. They are shooting for September 1st for the opening. The stores will follow behind a few days except for Restoration Hardware.

I was just onsite at the OAK this morning for a tour. they are trying to get the MAPS4 Will Rogers trail to run along there. Not sure if it will happen but there is a chance. They are shooting for September 1st for the opening. The stores will follow behind a few days except for Restoration Hardware.

The bike path (the infamous 'sharrow' markings, anyway) runs down Youngs right near OAK.

From there, Youngs runs south and under I-44, so cyclists can make the passage safely.

You'll see about another 10-15 new-to-market retailers at OAK in the near future.

How many, total, are they shooting for?

Do you get the sense that there's already LOIs for all the currently built space?

They are currently working with a new to market clothing retailer. Also restaurant pad sites across the street at Red Carpet.

How many, total, are they shooting for?

Do you get the sense that there's already LOIs for all the currently built space?

They have about 10-15 retail spaces depending on the size of the tenants; a few of those might be small food places. They have all the Phase II space which will likely be all restaurants. There will also be retail/restaurant space on the ground floor of the office building and it looks like they are planning a small building between it and Pottery Barn.

I think new announcements will start trickling out soon. I've heard lots of different names, but no idea which ones have actually signed on the line which is dotted.

If I haven't mentioned it before, I know they were close with Design Within Reach but now it appears they are plenty loaded on home places. I hope that mean DWR goes elsewhere in OKC.

Pete, Based on one of their social media posts I think that
Small building will be an event space that can be rented out.

Man, that a lot of work. Here how I live 7 days a week.

Sketchers step-ins

Dockers...pleated front with the Fat-O-Matic waist

Members Mark golf shirt

Garanimals for geezers

Oo, flex on ‘em. Gonna need to start calling you Drip Hooligan.

Oo, flex on ‘em. Gonna need to start calling you Drip Hooligan.

Drip Hooligan? I’m so done. LMAO

Oo, flex on ‘em. Gonna need to start calling you Drip Hooligan.

Drip Hooligan? I’m so done. LMAO

Man, that a lot of work. Here how I live 7 days a week.

Sketchers step-ins

Dockers...pleated front with the Fat-O-Matic waist

Members Mark golf shirt

Garanimals for geezers

I mean, if it's a total lean in, I'm like 1000% here for this.

Also, having this connected to the Will Rogers trail would be BIG for me and I love hearing that.

Oo, flex on ‘em. Gonna need to start calling you Drip Hooligan.

I'm gonna ask here, and not google....what are you saying? Is this some kinda young people slang?

I hope my comments read as funny as I think they are when I'm typing.

Shout out Value Village Thrift Store in Del City. Them threads are built to last.

This place is SO GOOD! The Del City/MWC area has some PRIME thrift stores. My spouse and I drive from north Edmond (I guess Edmond is too good for thrift stores? It sucks) pretty often just to check them all out.

I'm gonna ask here, and not google....what are you saying? Is this some kinda young people slang?

It’s an involved way of saying you dress sharp, haha.


I hope my comments read as funny as I think they are when I'm typing.

Don’t worry, they do - at least to me - hence my responses. :D

This is a completely false narrative (Tulsa gets stores first) that is easily disproven:

OKC v. Tulsa Retail (https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37659&p=780943#post780943)

Just FYI, Pendleton closed in Tulsa, and they are getting or currently now have the following. I'll try and update the thread with some other things I see around tulsa.

Lego Store
Floor & Decor
Rye 51
REI
Dry Goods
Dashmart
Johnny Was
Popshelf
Dick's House of Sport (71st location currently being remodeled)

It’s an involved way of saying you dress sharp, haha.



Don’t worry, they do - at least to me - hence my responses. :D

Cover the nakedness, don't embarrass the family, and don't frighten the general public. That's my clothing mantra.

Wonder if an Abercrombie and fitch would ever come back to OKC?