anytime a business comes in, your property value decreases

there are literally 1000's of examples in the OKC area which prove this wrong

anytime a business comes in, your property value decreases

You seriously believe that or just trolling? Maybe if they are building shacks and holding cock-fights and strip shows.

I suppose the property around the Plaza is decreasing in value now due to those darn businesses.

Pete in your drawing like I said to you, they want to buy those 5 houses on 52nd odd numbers, this will lower our real estate values of our houses too, to have a business come into a residential area

The developer told me those would not be developed as commercial but be a buffer between the project and neighborhood.

anytime a business comes in, your property value decreases

If by decrease, you mean increase, you nailed it.

Plus, 3 parking garages! Should be right up your alley ;)

Truly, this is the best part.

Pete forgot to add this, they want to buy 5 houses on 52nd

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Investing millions and bettering the neighborhood vs. letting it continue to run down. Seems like it would be an easy choice.

The neighborhood is not 'run down'. It's quite nice and property values have been steadily increasing.

The Penn Park and Registry buildings are quite full.


I'm generally for this development but I completely understand why those very close aren't crazy about the idea.

If by decrease, you mean increase, you nailed it.

so why would I want to pay more taxes then GEEZ

There are pockets increasing, but relative to values in many other areas it has not been keeping pace. And, I looked at deals on the Registry as well as the apartment complex to the south over the past 2-3 years. Neither was full, though they both had pretty steady occupancy at reasonable rates.

This is a potentially great deal to raise the visibility of the neighborhood. It is a great location with some pretty good bones, but can use a new face and new destinations. It will be nice to have a high density commercial area. Penn Square isn't the "neighborhood" village. This could be.

I guess I am selfish... this is an easy bike ride or walk for me and would be a good destination area. Now if they do this and then finish the Triangle at the Curve with it's mixed use development, I would be a happy man.

can't there is a median at the entry off of Penn

That entire intersection will be redone, and if given proper input before final plans go before the review board this can be altered.

can't there is a median at the entry off of Penn

50th would be shifted south to align with the stoplight into 50 Penn Place, there's no median there.

the house next to me has been empty for maybe 5 years, she finally sold it for $120K then they sold it to a rental management company for $144K, my house is still worth $120K and it's bigger

50th would be shifted south to align with the stoplight into 50 Penn Place, there's no median in Penn there.

look at Penn into the business area
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there is a median from the expressway to the light then stops then it starts again to the second opening into the business

There are pockets increasing, but relative to values in many other areas it has not been keeping pace.

I own a home in that neighborhood and recently had it appraised and I can assure values are rising at a healthy rate.

look at Penn into the business area
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This is only a schematic drawing and that median is not set-in-stone.

Pete in your drawing like I said to you, they want to buy those 5 houses on 52nd odd numbers, this will lower our real estate values of our houses too, to have a business come into a residential area

They already own 3 out of the 5 houses they intend to use as a "buffer zone".

They already own 3 out of the 5 houses they intend to use as a "buffer zone".

Pete said one to me, they own all the houses on Barnes, they already have done the $500 on them

Pete said one to me, they own all the houses on Barnes, they already have done the $500 on them

They paid $149k, $213k, and $215k for them.

I hope they contact the church about their sea of asphalt and provide a partnership with them to provide parking to the area, if needed. A much better land use needs to be discussed over here. Parking garage next to a parking lot that is used once a day every Sunday ... doesn't seem like something I would want to drive/walk/bike by every time going home.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/919/42711987825_9b1097b46d_o.png (https://flic.kr/p/285j6Vc)
SW Corner Penn & NW EXPY (https://flic.kr/p/285j6Vc) by lazio85 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/77483833@N04/), on Flickr

This is only a schematic drawing and that median is not set-in-stone.

If you look closely, you'll see the intersection at Penn is not changed from the current configuration, and I was told it will remain as-is.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/50thpenn072418a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/50thpenn072418b.jpg

BTW, I just looked at the appraisals for my home...

In one year and 17 days the appraisal increased by 11.8% and I have not made any improvements.

A bunch of homes in the surrounding neighborhoods are being renovated, even by flippers. There was one a couple of streets over from me that had a bunch of offers on the day it hit the market and it sold for more than the asking price:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2423-NW-45th-St-Oklahoma-City-OK-73112/21880725_zpid/

The neighborhood is not 'run down'. It's quite nice and property values have been steadily increasing.

The Penn Park and Registry buildings are quite full.


I'm generally for this development but I completely understand why those very close aren't crazy about the idea.

Pete is absolutely right. This is a nice area with tons of potential for this project. When you think of 50 Penn with the Belle Isle Brewery, Full Circle Books, and then Penn Square on the NE side of the intersection, Cheesecake factory, new Container Store on their pad site at Penn Square, Whiskey Cake, AMC inside the mall - I can't help but think this new development would be a huge success. This would help create a "super corner" that would be a big, big deal. Homeowners in the immediate area must have mixed feelings, but their property values would skyrocket with this project!

^

It's exactly why I bought in this neighborhood and I think it's fair to say I know a thing or two about all the various areas of OKC.

I can be downtown in 10 minutes or jump on I-44 at Penn and get anywhere else in the metro very quickly. Sam's, Aldi, Winco, Target, Lowe's, Winco, Sprouts and Penn Square are all within 2 miles and most only 1 mile.

Plus, I back up to the prettiest little park and have 1/3 acres with lots of mature trees.


I'd like to be able to walk more places where I could sit outside with my dogs but otherwise I love this neighborhood and have been encouraging all my friends to look here.

so why would I want to pay more taxes then GEEZ

In one post you argue that this will decrease your homes value (it wont) yet then you lament the fact it will go up? You are hard to please.

A far as paying more property taxes, you are going to do that regardless of this project. However, your assessed value by the county isnt likely to keep up with the market value, and you definitely wont pay more than 5% from previous year. Wanting your property value to stay flat because it might cost you $50 extra next year is very short sighted. Just remember that for about every $1 extra you have to pay in property taxes, your homes value will be worth around $1000 more, at minimum. If not, you can always contest your assessed value.

About the development, $15 million for 12 acres of dirt? Wow! Best of luck to them.

I hope they take the opportunity to improve pedestrian access to cross both Penn and NW Exp.

My understanding is that they are hoping to model this development after Avalon in suburban Atlanta.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/avalon1.jpg

Great addition in a great location. Maybe we can get Lipsmackers to just move up the street a little to here. :)

If this happens it seems like it would qualify as the first really full-fledged lifestyle center (I know that has become a bit of a dirty word but I am specifically referring to full-blown mixed use) type development in OKC..? I know Chisholm Creek has strong elements of this (and started out even moreso), but carving it up for some of the larger uses - while still great and places I really enjoy - have somewhat compromised the full-blown walkable mixed use execution.

More suburban retrofits and strategic density will do amazing things for property values, sales tax collections and the quality of life for adjacent neighborhoods. What a great place to walk to from the surrounding neighborhoods.

Also worth pointing out that developments like this - and also the rising property values others were mentioning - spreading into the rest of OKC are the organic outgrowth of the past 20 years of investment in the core. Obviously other major influences here are proximity to NW Expressway, Penn, plus PSQ, etc, etc.. This really does have fantastic and previously-underutilized location. But when there is discussion and debate regarding the merits of continuing to invest in the core I hope that people connect the dots and understand that without MAPS and the subsequent efforts OKC has made in the center of the city, stuff like this would probably only be happening further and further out and in places where the sales taxes and property taxes didn't necessarily benefit OKC proper.

If this happens it seems like it would qualify as the first really full-fledged lifestyle center (I know that has become a bit of a dirty word but I am specifically referring to full-blown mixed use) type development in OKC..? I know Chisholm Creek has strong elements of this (and started out even moreso), but carving it up for some of the larger uses - while still great and places I really enjoy - have somewhat compromised the full-blown walkable mixed use execution.

I've always wondered why OKC has never had this kind of development. They were going up like wildfire in the 2000s in cities across the country large and small. They were a dime-a-dozen when I lived in Charlotte and that was almost a decade ago now. Nonetheless, I think this kind of development is much needed here and hopefully this finally pulls it off.

Something this has over Chisolm is that it's directly on an existing transit route (Rt 8) with a stop right at 50/Penn. And maybe there's a BRT connection in the future. While it's not terribly undoable to walk over to Rt 5 (May) from Chisolm, it's not at all convenient either.

My understanding is that they are hoping to model this development after Avalon in suburban Atlanta.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/avalon1.jpg
That would certainly be a welcome addition.

I think this is a very nice development, but am I the only one that worries that this is going to cannabalize the new Classen Curve / Triangle / Nichols Hills Plaza shopping areas?

I think this is a very nice development, but am I the only one that worries that this is going to cannabalize the new Classen Curve / Triangle / Nichols Hills Plaza shopping areas?

Nothing is stopping Glimcher from getting started. As far as I know the NIMBY lawsuit has been settled. Regardless, Little Rock has several of these developments (and they coexist with Park Plaza Mall, their equivalent of Penn Square) and their metro is half the size of OKC. I think OKC is more than ready for both this development and the Glimcher development.

I think this is a very nice development, but am I the only one that worries that this is going to cannabalize the new Classen Curve / Triangle / Nichols Hills Plaza shopping areas?

Strengthen actually...Retail and restaurants thrive in density, especially if there are nearby residents who live in the area and represent a steady supply of customers.

The below outline represents possibly the most important retail sector of the city...it would be interesting to compare the retail health of this sector of the city to Memorial from Western to Hefner Parkway, and to I-240 from I-35 to I-44.

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In terms of strategic city planning, this 5.5 square mile area probably comes in 2nd behind downtown in terms of importance to the development and health of the city. The only area I can think that might be more important long-term is Capitol Hill.

Strengthen actually...Retail and restaurants thrive in density, especially if there are nearby residents who live in the area and represent a steady supply of customers.

The below outline represents possibly the most important retail sector of the city...it would be interesting to compare the retail health of this sector of the city to Memorial from Western to Hefner Parkway, and to I-240 from I-35 to I-44.

14790

In terms of strategic city planning, this 5.5 square mile area probably comes in 2nd behind downtown in terms of importance to the development and health of the city. The only area I can think that might be more important long-term is Capitol Hill.

why go so far north with your boundaries? just wondering

why go so far north with your boundaries? just wondering

May from 50th to Hefner has done a better job than anywhere else in the city at constantly reinventing itself to stay relevant. It was alive and kicking in the 50s and still holding its own today in a way that 23rd and 39th have completely failed to do. It's even looking better poised going forward than NW Expressway west of Portland - which has been developed for significantly less time.

In regards to that specific area - obviously the north is less important, but Nichols Hills people pour a lot of money into the N. Western and N. May retail in those areas around Wilshire. Places like Beau's Wine Bin/Olive and Co and Gil's Clothing/Culinary Kitchen represent some sort of "limit" to the Nichols Hills shopping playground. Western is probably fancier than May - but we're still Oklahomans and will never be too fancy for run-o-the-mill retail. You could maybe even make an argument to stretch that May segment all the way to Uptown Grocery which is clearly aiming for the Nichols Hills crowd.

Anyway - I pray this development happens with no more than minor revisions to the plans (and preferably those revisions to enhance the site plan). This will be another major contributor to the area for retail and could help us concentrate our retail in such a way that could bring more high quality national chains. Additionally, this is the kind of development that, if it works, will push places like the owners of the Belle Isle Wal-Mart parking Crater to rethink the way that it uses its land.

makes sense, thanks for the clarification

Could there not be a bus/trolly line that ferries people from NH Plaza, Classen Curve, PSQ, and this new development? That would definitely bring all the retail together and provide customers an easier shopping/dining experience, IMO. Only having to park once and then stay all day would be nice given that Penn, NW Expressway, and Grand Blvd can get fairly congested at times.

If you look closely, you'll see the intersection at Penn is not changed from the current configuration, and I was told it will remain as-is.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/50thpenn072418a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/50thpenn072418b.jpg

Ah, I see. Thanks!

Even though one could consider this development a "lifestyle center", it's different than other lifestyle centers I have visited in that it is integrated into an existing neighborhood. It's not it's own walled off, self contained enclave. This to me, while a massive single party development, is superior as it will work with the established fabric of the neighborhood rather than being a separate mall like area.

This has the potential to be similar to CityCentre in Houston.

This has the potential to be similar to CityCentre in Houston.

i don't know if i would go that far... needs a lot of work to get up to that standard... but i would be very happy if that was a similar idea to what is in store for the whole area

i don't know if i would go that far... needs a lot of work to get up to that standard... but i would be very happy if that was a similar idea to what is in store for the whole area

I was alluding more so to its walkability and apartments with the potential for nicer stores and restaurants, with its easy accessibility from NW EXPWY and/or I-44. Maybe it would've been more fair to compare it to La Centerra in Cinco Ranch/Katy...

This has the potential to be similar to CityCentre in Houston.

That's exactly what I was thinking, albeit on an Oklahoma City scale.

This is only a schematic drawing and that median is not set-in-stone.

the median into the business is already there, why would they change it

the median into the business is already there, why would they change it

Pete has already pointed that out to me on the previous page.

Could there not be a bus/trolly line that ferries people from NH Plaza, Classen Curve, PSQ, and this new development? That would definitely bring all the retail together and provide customers an easier shopping/dining experience, IMO. Only having to park once and then stay all day would be nice given that Penn, NW Expressway, and Grand Blvd can get fairly congested at times.

Anything is doable if someone wants to pay for it. IMO it would be in the best interest of all the area shopping entities (Penn Square, 50 Penn Place, Classen Curve, Classen Triangle, and this place) to pool some money and at least run a circulator bus during peak shopping hours on weekends, but you're not going to see something like that from the city. Such an endeavor is a non-trivially costly thing though. Hard to sustain if not being well utilized. Thing is, if people are actually shopping, they'll be carrying lots of shopping bags. At that point, probably just as well to drive between the places so they have bag storage.

Here are a few more images of Avalon in suburban Georgia.

This development would be similar, just a bit smaller with no theater or hotel.

But the 'community square' concept would be the same which would be programmed with all types of events and maybe even an ice rink in the winter.

Other similar developments are The Grove in LA and Santana Row in San Jose.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/avalon2.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/avalon3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/avalon4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/avalon5.jpg

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Alright, so I have been door knocking in the area and speaking to other business owners of the area (Simon of Simon malls as well as 50 Penn of 50 Penn Place) and we have all come to an agreement. I have been asked to design a response to this. I've got the backing of at least one woman on instagram as well as someone else. We all agree, we don't want any traffic concerns a la Penn and Memorial, we don't want anymore property devaluation (since big developments always kill property values within a 10 mile radius) and really we're just flat out tired of positive growth in OKC.

So again, this is an actually architectural rendering of mine we will be submitting to the city. We will be asking for TIF, to the tune of a couple million.

Haha...

I bet you could get Braum's to buy-in.

Sorry if already covered but why not across the street at 50 Penn? That's already a mostly vacant mixed used space isn't it?

Haha...

I bet you could get Braum's to buy-in.

We asked them about moving a half mile north, but they really love the competition the old Coits brings them. Just stuck in their ways I guess. The benefit here is that there is no Chuck E. Cheese or Carl's Jr. around. The people will love this. Pete, you'll finally have a nice place to walk to with your dogs, grab a double western bacon cheeseburger combo, and walk back home. This is big league.

Haha...

I bet you could get Braum's to buy-in.

Naaa...it's not a good fit for a Braum's because there's nothing historic to tear down.

Sorry if already covered but why not across the street at 50 Penn? That's already a mostly vacant mixed used space isn't it?

Welcome to the site!

That's a good point and I bet that if this comes off and becomes what well all hope it will be, perhaps 50 Penn will be motivated to reconfigure as well.

Naaa...it's not a good fit for a Braum's because there's nothing historic to tear down.

Maybe we could convince the B'nai Temple to FINALLY move to the 'burbs and let Braums have their way with that land.

Any updates for this project?

First look at ambitious NW Expressway and Penn mixed-use project (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=574-First-look-at-ambitious-NW-Expressway-and-Penn-mixed-use-project)

Plans are moving forward to redevelop 16.4 acres at the southwest corner of NW Expressway and Pennsylvania near Penn Square Mall.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral7.jpg


A group led by Tulsa developer Ryan McNeil looks to demolish two large office complexes and a handful of homes and replace them with a complex that would feature a movie theater, hotel, apartments, restaurant, retail and office space and structured parking.

OKCTalk was first to report on the plans last July when neighbors in the area were being asked for their support.

Dubbed Penn Central, the conceptual design by architects Wakefield Beasley & Associates is similar to Avalon in Alpharetta, Georgia, a popular and acclaimed mixed-use project that was designed by the same firm.

Under the plan, NW 50th would be realigned to tie into an existing light on Penn that currently leads into 50 Penn Place. New vehicle access would also be added from east-bound NW Expressway.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral5b.jpg


The owners have systematically acquired the property over the last several years with a total investment of almost $15 million. The group first purchased the former Salvation Army land and several homes from Chesapeake Energy in 2016 and then later bought the Penn Park and Registry office complexes.

The immediate area continues to be a hot spot for commercial development. Neighboring Penn Square recently adding a free-standing Container Store while the mall itself enjoys high occupancy and jammed parking lots while many other enclosed shopping complexes around the country are struggling. To the east, work is just starting on Oklahoma's first REI in Belle Isle Station, another large retail and restaurant complex that continues to thrive.

The planning commission will consider the rezoning application for Penn Central in late February or early March.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral3.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral4.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral6.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral8.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral9.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral10.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral11.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/penncentral12.jpg

This is what I’m taking about! Killer project! Great location too, hope everything works out!

Do we know the financing abilities of the developers? Are they loaded, or just ridiculously ambitious with no means to afford it?