http://www.okctalk.com/announcements-help-desk/40162-please-show-respect-business-owners.html


Virtually every business owner around Oklahoma City reads this site. So, when we post something about a restaurant or retail shop or development or any type of enterprise, we are discussing someone's passion and livelihood.

Please keep that in mind as you post comments. Constructive criticism is always welcomed and you've seen several owners come here to ask for more feedback, even if it's less than positive.

But please refrain from saying something 'sucks' or is 'fugly' or is 'garbage', etc. It comes across as petty and disrespectful and reflects badly on the entire site; and lessens the value of our discussions.

Imagine a business owner sitting across a table from you and what you might say to that person face-to-face. Because the reality is they are generally hearing everything you say here.

Thanks.

"This seems like it sucks."

"bland new crap"

"piece of poo"

"the design pegs the needle on the fugly meter"

"unfortunate, ugly design"

"crap pile"

http://www.okctalk.com/announcements-help-desk/40162-please-show-respect-business-owners.html

"This seems like it sucks."

"bland new crap"

"piece of poo"

"the design pegs the needle on the fugly meter"

"unfortunate, ugly design"

"crap pile"

The community does not like that they are obliterating a historic Georgian colonnade to put up a rather bland modern "annex"

Given OKC's planning processes, sadly they may as well have gone through with full demo unannounced. Which was their plan.

The community does not like that they are obliterating a historic Georgian colonnade to put up a rather bland modern "annex"

And there are respectful ways of expressing that, as many have demonstrated.

I personally really like the modern design... but it's an atrocious idea to tack this façade on to this historic building like this. I would really like to see this modern style building built somewhere... but 400 N Walnut should be restored and rehabilitated, not transmogrified like this. The building, district, and city really deserve better than the current plans.

I absolutely 110% agree that the modern design is NOT bad, and does belong in our community. The issue is what is being lost, not what is being gained. What is gained should always outweigh what is lost. I have sat on countless design review boards, in countless different cities, where that is the basis for rejecting a permit application or certificate of appropriateness or whatever. It's even happened on projects I have been working on, and it forced us to go back to the drawing board to elevate our design within our means.

What is happening in OKC is unique. Youuuu-neek. OKC is uniquely predisposed against its historic building stock, and the reason I am so harsh on us is because we need that 12-step recovery process...

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I have to chime in. That design is a monstrosity. If only the owners and architects had walked one block south they would see how to re-purpose an historic building without destroying it. Did these architects go to school?

And there are respectful ways of expressing that, as many have demonstrated.

I'm sorry Pete, but this business owner (whoever they are, they've kept their identity secret) and this developer have shown zero respect for the community or the history of this building. They started demolition without a permit and hoped to just sneak it through. I hope they do read this site. I hope they sit there at the computer and say "gee, people really hate this design. If I proceed with this, I'm going to be very unpopular."

Not every business owner deserves respect.

Guys, I don't think Pete's request was "optional". You're allowed to have your opinion, but whether or not it's allowed to be voiced on this forum likely depends on how you phrase things. Maybe I'm wrong, but since his post I bet you can add "monstrosity", "transmogrified", "Did these architects go to school" to the list.

Those things may be 110% true and still be the wrong thing to post on this forum. I'm not a moderator or anybody special, and I know I've been pretty sharp-tongued myself at various points, but if Pete specifically calls us out on something, can we not make his life harder by defying him and making him have to make a difficult decision to censure us to protect the OKCTalk brand (via deleting posts or banning users)?

While I have shied away from that strong language myself, since I view the city as the problem here which really failed in its role to help the developers figure this out, I do not want to be part of a forum that censures criticisms. It's already enough that OKC is naturally a community incapable of handling criticism. Although few people stick up for my criticisms, I find it extremely valuable for other posters who are less frequently critical to have the ability to criticize when needed.

I just say that because I saw the word censure, banning, and deleting posts... Which I am sure Pete is NOT even considering.

I don't want to speak for Pete, but I doubt he's considering censure/banning/deleting posts in this instance.

What I'm saying is there's a specific reason he referenced his previous post, yet immediately people are continuing on using the same caustic verbiage he just finished calling out.

What I'm trying to prevent via "self-policing" is that we ever get to the point where censure is even an idea that enters Pete's mind. There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticism and nobody has ever advocated for less criticism. Pete's asking for the rhetoric to be toned down. It's normal in internet land to go over-board and use verbiage that is overly-strong to get a point across. And that's fine in normal internet land. It's neither necessary nor appreciated here, specifically if the verbiage is targeted at anyone in the OKC community (whether active or non-active on this site). Again…I've offended too, so I'm not pointing fingers at specific posters…just asking that we actually listen to what Pete said and not summarily disregard it because we can't be bothered to criticize in a more tactful manner.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds as a participant…I really am just advocating that we all make Pete's job as easy as possible. I'm sure I'll over-play the rhetoric in the future myself, and I hope at that point someone calls me out and says "Valid criticism…now find a more tactful way to say it".

I don't want to speak for Pete, but I doubt he's considering censure/banning/deleting posts in this instance.

What I'm saying is there's a specific reason he referenced his previous post, yet immediately people are continuing on using the same caustic verbiage he just finished calling out.

What I'm trying to prevent via "self-policing" is that we ever get to the point where censure is even an idea that enters Pete's mind. There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticism and nobody has ever advocated for less criticism. Pete's asking for the rhetoric to be toned down. It's normal in internet land to go over-board and use verbiage that is overly-strong to get a point across. And that's fine in normal internet land. It's neither necessary nor appreciated here, specifically if the verbiage is targeted at anyone in the OKC community (whether active or non-active on this site). Again…I've offended too, so I'm not pointing fingers at specific posters…just asking that we actually listen to what Pete said and not summarily disregard it because we can't be bothered to criticize in a more tactful manner.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds as a participant…I really am just advocating that we all make Pete's job as easy as possible. I'm sure I'll over-play the rhetoric in the future myself, and I hope at that point someone calls me out and says "Valid criticism…now find a more tactful way to say it".

Agreed with all of the above.

I was the first person that Pete quoted, and it was indeed juvenile & unneeded. Its easy to get caught up in the anonymity of the internet & use less than respectful language. Pete asked us to stop (without deleting the posts he quoted) & we should respect that.

This is obviously a very unpopular renovation & its OK to voice our opinion against it, but a lot of us (me included) are weakening our points by coming off as immature.

I for one am glad they are leaving the Georgian columns on the inside of the building, I think that will be a pretty cool effect with the modern design on the outside. I'm not a overall fan of the renovations, but at least they are attempting to please the review committee & possibly the public. Honestly, the only thing "remarkable" about the building was the columns & if their overall goal was to get people to notice this building I think they will accomplish that but being noticed isn't necessarily a good thing.

I don't want to speak for Pete, but I doubt he's considering censure/banning/deleting posts in this instance.

What I'm saying is there's a specific reason he referenced his previous post, yet immediately people are continuing on using the same caustic verbiage he just finished calling out.

What I'm trying to prevent via "self-policing" is that we ever get to the point where censure is even an idea that enters Pete's mind. There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticism and nobody has ever advocated for less criticism. Pete's asking for the rhetoric to be toned down. It's normal in internet land to go over-board and use verbiage that is overly-strong to get a point across. And that's fine in normal internet land. It's neither necessary nor appreciated here, specifically if the verbiage is targeted at anyone in the OKC community (whether active or non-active on this site). Again…I've offended too, so I'm not pointing fingers at specific posters…just asking that we actually listen to what Pete said and not summarily disregard it because we can't be bothered to criticize in a more tactful manner.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds as a participant…I really am just advocating that we all make Pete's job as easy as possible. I'm sure I'll over-play the rhetoric in the future myself, and I hope at that point someone calls me out and says "Valid criticism…now find a more tactful way to say it".

I agree wholeheartedly that we should make this easier, not harder, for Pete. That said, call a spade what it is. This is the Internet after all, and we all know how hard it is to speak up in more meaningful situations. I for one could never be a commissioner for the BUDC or DDRC without being up-front about my commitment to standards, not politics.

As per Steve, this whole thing is a puzzlement.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5412150&headline=Debate%20over%20Oklahoma%20City%20ordinan ce%27s%20preservation%20guidelines%20continues%20w ith%20Deep%20Deuce%20property

So Karchmer is involved in this?

This project goes before the Board of Adjustment Thursday 5/21.

They have not made any changes to their proposal since the last DDRC meeting but remember, the City planning department recommended approval of that plan.

I think there is a very good chance it will be approved by the BOA and I know the ownership group is ready to start work if that does happen.

The owners requested a continuance before the Board of Adjustment until 8/6.

This project goes before the Board of Adjustment Thursday 5/21.

They have not made any changes to their proposal since the last DDRC meeting but remember, the City planning department recommended approval of that plan.

I think there is a very good chance it will be approved by the BOA and I know the ownership group is ready to start work if that does happen.

They're probably ready to start work even if it isn't approved...

This project is still kicking.

They have delayed their appeal to the Board of Adjustment until January. Do not believe they will be making any major changes to what is proposed.

As per Steve there has been a major change in this project.

http://www.oklahoman.com/redevelopment-resold/article/5467086


A controversial redevelopment of a historic building in Deep Deuce is being halted and the former school board building at 400 N Walnut Ave. is under a sale contract to three downtown developers.

Developers Andy Burnett, Zach Martin and Mark Beffort signed a sale contract on Friday with the owners, who have continued to decline comment or reveal their identities.

https://samepageteam.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/festivusmiracle.jpg

As per Steve there has been a major change in this project.

http://www.oklahoman.com/redevelopment-resold/article/5467086

Oh, great! Thanks for destroying the historic character of the building and then abandoning the project midway. How many times have we seen this happen in our city?

Oh, great! Thanks for destroying the historic character of the building and then abandoning the project midway. How many times have we seen this happen in our city?

Please note this from the article.


Martin said questions and challenges remain to be addressed before the sale is closed, but the partners are intent on not destroying or eliminating the building's original facade.

There was little that was changed in the character of the building besides removing some steps.

And the steps were not original to the building.

How long is this property going to be left with a giant dirt mound where the steps were? Looks terrible.

It will be a while.

They had to stop work because they didn't have design review approval and now the property is under contract to sell.

So, the property would first have to sell, then the new owners would have to have their design plans approved, and building permits issued.

I'd guess at least 6 more months, probably longer.

And the steps were not original to the building.

But they were there. Now their wreckage is there because yet another project didn't come to fruition.

They would ultimately be removed anyway and there are clearly plans to renovate a long-vacant structure.

Let's not turn this into yet another Chicken Little screed.

They would ultimately be removed anyway and there are clearly plans to renovate a long-vacant structure.


Where do these plans clearly stand?

Where do these plans clearly stand?

You might wait until the property actually sells before demanding satisfaction.

I think I have a pretty realistic idea of where this transaction really stands... they might want to clean up their mess in the meantime.

They were ordered to stop work which is why it's in the current state.

400 N. Walnut was purchased by local investors in 2014 and plans were soon released that showed an ambitious renovation into apartments and office space.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400nwalnutmarch1.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400nwalnutmarch2.jpg


A contractor hired to do interior demolition also mistakenly razed the large exterior stairs before the city stopped the work as it had not been approved through appropriate channels.

In addition, the initial designs met with some resistance from the Downtown Design Review Committee and before long local brokers and developers Zach Martin and Andy Burnett announced they had the property under contract to purchase.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400nwalnutmarch3.jpg

Signs and marketing materials now show the property for lease or purchase through Martin and Burnett.

Zach Martin recently told OKCTalk that they are helping facilitate a sale for the current owners but also may purchase and renovate the building for lease if a suitable tenant can be found.

Martin hired local architect Sam Gresham to conceptualize a new plan to renovate the structure into office space, with a large addition on the west side facing Walnut.

The rendering shows the existing facade being eliminated in favor of the extension which would bring the building closer to the street. Also, the western portion of the property would be excavated, as the current basement level is actually higher than the sidewalk

The building was originally constructed for the OKC Board of Education in 1919 and was then became home to the Toll / Turnpike authority starting in the late 50's. More recently, it's been a variety of other uses and is currently vacant. It is comprised of17,632 total square feet on just under .7 acres of land.

The purchase price in 2014 was $1.6 million and the current sales price is $1.9 million as listed with Newmark Grubb Levy Strange Beffort.

A purchaser or lessee is now being sought for what is a highly visible property entering Deep Deuce and Bricktown from I-235.



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400nwalnutmarch6.jpg

http://newsok.com/former-oklahoma-city-school-board-building-sells-to-mark-moore-partnership/article/5565040

That was three years ago?! Time flies...

The Bob Moore group already has retained a prominent local architect; something will happen here in the near future.

I'm just thankful the original plans for this building fell through.

The Bob Moore group already has retained a prominent local architect; something will happen here in the near future.

Are they working with AHMM again?

Based on the deed it appears the two managers of Walnuts, LLC are Patricia Bowers Edwards, and Babette Patton. Patton is an attorney that has represented Edwards previously according to a report in the Oklahoman from 2006. (http://newsok.com/article/2992567).

14188

Per Newsok.com, it looks like this building is going to be restored by a law firm.

https://newsok.com/article/5610414/new-owners-pledge-historic-restoration-of-deep-deuce-landmark?earlyAccess=true
(full story behind a paywall)

This is WAY better than what was previously planned. A nice classic preservation and mainting the columns. Love this.

Attorneys to renovate historic Deep Deuce structure (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=554-Attorneys-to-renovate-historic-Deep-Deuce-structure)


Law firm Ryan Whaley Coldiron Jantzen Peters and Webber is set to renovate the historic building at 400 N. Walnut and relocate from downtown Oklahoma City.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618aa.jpg


Plans have been submitted on their behalf by Studio Architecture to the Downtown Design Review Committee to be reviewed on November 15.


All of the following is from their application:

The Scope of Work for this project includes the interior and exterior renovation fo the existing 17,000 SF building located at 400 N. Walnut Avenue in the Deep Deuce District. The original building was constructed in 1919 and housed the Irving School on the first floor and the Board of Education Administration Offices on the second floor. The addition to to the back of the building was completed in 1930. During the Cold War, the buiding was used as a Civil Defence Center.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618d.jpg


In the 1970's, the building was purchased by Opportunities Industrialization Center, Inc. (IC) and was utilized as an alternative education ad skills training center. The building is significant to Oklahoma City's hiostry for the followign reasons:

It was the first permanent home for the Oklahoma City Schools' Administration.
It is the only remaining building directly related to the original Irving School, which was built in 1896, and was Oklahoma City's first high school. The Irving School burned down in 1937.
It is one of the few original buildings remaining from the 1890-1920 time period of school construction in Oklahoma City.
It is one of the few original buildings remaining within the Deep Deuce District.
Building was designed by Layton & Smith Architects.


At some point in the building's history, the original front entry steps were modified. In 2015, the front entry steps to the building were removed without a permit and all the interior partitions were demolished. The building's current owner will reconstruct the front entry steps to their original design and renovate the interior to be used as offices.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618x.jpg


Interior Renovation
Interior renovation work includes new office layout with new finish materials: partition/wall construction, new acoustical ceiling “clouds”, flooring, lighting, a new elevator, plumbing fixtures and HVAC. The interior desing includes exposing brick walls and concrete beams and columns of the existing structure to contrast with modern finishes of polished concrete, glass, and metal.

Exterior Renovation
Exterior renovation work includes the reconstruction of the main entry steps on the west facade of the building. Reconstruction of these steps will incorporate salvaged brick from the steps that were demolished in 2015 and will be based on the original design by Layton & Smith Architects. In order to meet current buidling codes, new handrails will be provided.

Existing aluminum windows will be removed and replaced with new windows that will replicate the building's original “six over six” styled windows. New windows will be high performance with clear insulated glaizing. Frames and mullions will be white to mathch the building's original windows. The orginal building's clerestory windows will eb slavaged and repaired, if possible. If these windows are determned to be damaged beyond repair, they will be replaced with new windows to match the finish and character of the orignal windows.

The existing front entry door on the west facade will eb replaced with a new wood door that matches the finish and character fo the original building's entry. On the buildin's south facade, the existing metal overhaed door will eb replaced with a new fixed prefinished aluminum window wall system. This system will incorporate clear insulated high performance galzing. Glazing will be divided into lites that emulate the appearance of an operable overhead glass door. Frames and mullions shall be white to match the building's other windows.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618ba.jpg

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618ca.jpg


A new ADA accessible entry will be constructed on the east facade of the building, adjacent to the existing parking lot. The new entry includes steps and a handicap ramp. Bothe the steps and ramp will be cast-in-lace concrete. Handrails for the steps and handicap ramp will have painted steel posts and stinless steel handrails with stinless steel cable infill to maktch the handrails at the reconstructed entry steps on the west facade and the guard rails at the second floor rooftop patio/deck. The new steops and landing will be connected to th adjacent parking canopy with a covered walkway. The structure of the covered walkway is painted stell farme with a tempered glass roof.

A rooftop patio/deck will be constructed on the top of the second floor of the original building along the south side. The rooftop patio/deck is approximately 500 SF and is accessible from the third floor.

Site Improvements
The existing parking lot on the east side of the building will access off of NW 3rd Street. Steel canopies will be installed to provide covered parking for 27 vehicles.

Street trees will be planted along NW 3rd Street within the Streetscape Zone.

Additional landscaping/planting beds will be located adjacent to the reconstructed man entry steps.

A monument sign is planned for the site.


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618e.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618f.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618g.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/walnut101618h.jpg

Sale closed on this property for $1.5 million.

They are starting work:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut020219.jpg

Now under full construction:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut032819a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut032819b.jpg

Steps have been rebuilt and new windows have gone in as this building is renovated for the use of a law firm.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut072319a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut072319b.jpg

now, foliage is desperately needed.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut082519a.jpg

Those stairs! :)

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut110219a.jpg

Man, I really like seeing the stairs with out the railings.

Just my 1000th post complaining about the utility lines... from that last picture it looks like they buried one side but I can’t tell.

From https://www.instagram.com/tietsort_design/:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut120319a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut120319b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut120319c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut120319d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/400walnut120319e.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YHLsI3r.jpg

It would be nice to see the sidewalks pushed back a bit and plaza or small park on that corner to activate it a bit and make the area feel more urban.

Otherwise this is a great development.

https://i.imgur.com/aLaJv2D.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/ULf76Yf.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/sypNH7Z.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/6WZ1cjL.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/ct8p7BZ.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/jPULfbW.jpg

This building is on the architecture tour this year:

https://aiacoc.org/?p=5749

16985

Guess a law firm grabbed this building

Again? Wasn’t a law firm there before?

Again? Wasn’t a law firm there before?

It's the same one that bought and did the renovation.

The sign is relatively new, though.