I haven't seen anything listed here, and couldn't find anything published online, but the sale of a horse farm at (SouthWest) corner of Wilshire and Council is nearing completion. I have a friend with grandparents that live in the neighborhood just to the west on Wilshire, and they have all received notice that the entire 40 acre section will be utilized to build Government Subsidized Apartments. With an estimated 10,000 housing units. His grandparents have lived in this neighborhood for 30 + years, and had hoped to remain there for the rest of their lives, but with this latest news have decided to quickly sell their home, and hope to be rid of the property before this is built. (The entire neighborhood is having an emergency board meeting to discuss the future options) This is somewhat concerning, as it seems like west/northwest OKC continues to be run into the ground. The Section 8 Apartments that they built 10+ year ago at 122nd/Rockwell single handily destroyed that immediate area of the city, and has for the most part ruined the Putnam City School district. With this latest land purchase, and promise to build in this location, this area of the city continues to be pooped on by the city of OKC. I grew up in far NW OKC, and I continue to be amazed at how quickly it is declining, upon visiting old friends or just driving through the area. What goes into these deciding factor on choosing these locations, and what can these concerned families/home owners do in regards to staving off the current plans to build there?

I hope your friend's grandparents really did not sell based on what sounds like erroneous information. 10K housing units on 40 acres would make it as dense as some places in Bangledesh or Japan.

I hope your friend's grandparents really did not sell based on what sounds like erroneous information. 10K housing units on 40 acres would make it as dense as some places in Bangledesh or Japan.Is it bad that I would like to see that here? That would be pretty cool actually.

Filthy...The same thing is pretty much happening in and around Council and Hefner as well. The property located on the south west side of Council and Hefner used to have several horses. That property and the one across the street on the north side have been up for sale for several years now...and the housing developments have just exploded west of Council on Hefner. And I just noticed today that Humphreys Co. has erected a new Billboard on Hefner just before you get to Council...very unsightly (but, it is zoned "commercial").

I hope your friend's grandparents really did not sell based on what sounds like erroneous information. 10K housing units on 40 acres would make it as dense as some places in Bangledesh or Japan.

I appreciate your well thought out and highly educated contribution to this thread. I'm not sure what stipulations they use when categorizing actual # of units, but it is going to be 4 level/stories, and they were told it will be one of the largest complexes in OKC. So, if the 10k number is incorrect or inflated, I apologize as I was not the direct recipient if this dismal news. But yes...they listed their house on Friday, and it is a very smart move. It would be only a matter of time before the property values plummet. And unfortunately, property values won't even be the biggest issue. Most likely it will be the increased rate of crime in the area.

Whether it's 10,000 units....or 5 units...It would be wise to pack your stuff and go.

The apartments that really ruined the area I live in is Britton Crossing at Rockwell and Britton, it's drive Wiley Post ES into a tailspin.

This is the AD I am seeing at the top of this Thread...

Apply for Section 8
section-8.findfamilyresources.com
Find Local Section 8 Housing Fast. Get Application. Apply Online Today

Hilarious!!!

A developer bought the 37 acres directly south of that intersection from the Kennard family and plans 143 single family homes. The owner is Habitat for Humanity, so maybe that's where some rumors started.

The Kennards still own the 43 acres on the corner, but it's been listed for sale for about a year and a half for $2.4 million.

That land is still zoned for agriculture and would have to be be re-zoned for any new development. I haven't been able to find any application for rezoning or construction.


If you can get your hands on what was supposedly distributed, please let us know.

The densest zoning in OKC which sets a maximum of 35 units per acre; so 1,500 would he absolute maximum allowed by law.

I appreciate your well thought out and highly educated contribution to this thread. I'm not sure what stipulations they use when categorizing actual # of units, but it is going to be 4 level/stories, and they were told it will be one of the largest complexes in OKC. So, if the 10k number is incorrect or inflated, I apologize as I was not the direct recipient if this dismal news. But yes...they listed their house on Friday, and it is a very smart move. It would be only a matter of time before the property values plummet. And unfortunately, property values won't even be the biggest issue. Most likely it will be the increased rate of crime in the area.

Whether it's 10,000 units....or 5 units...It would be wise to pack your stuff and go.

No need to be snide....suburban decay has been discussed extensively on here, typically in a very intelligent way. At least be honest.

Habitat for Humanity typically does not do Section 8. I imagine this will be something similar to Hope Crossing subdivision in NEOKC where people actually own their homes. I'd much rather have this than something like a Section 8 rental, HFH typically has some pretty stringent requirements and has always strived to be good neighbors.

I think you have some bad information here.

da po folk r comin',
da po folk r comin'
hide da silver, load da wagons, run fer yer lives.

good gravy gracie.

It's a shame. I'm all for helping people in need (and not a lifestyle) but I've seen numerous once nice working class neighborhoods become cesspool of crime and delapidated because of section 8. Eg..East tulsa becoming new north tulsa.

Forces working class people to take out 30 years of debt bondadge to live somewhere safe and stable.

At least be honest.

I think you have some bad information here.

My information comes from the grandparents of a friend. I did not portray this information as coming first hand. So, when I heard this information I searched as much as I could using available resources and could not find any information at all. So, I turned to OkcTalk as there is typically someone in the know, or someone who has direct information in regards to all things happening in Urban development...or in this case urban decay. So once again thank you for your confirmation. I will find out what the name of the neighborhood association is, to see when they are having their "Sky is falling" meeting.


And in regards to the property...yes, it is the Kennard Farms. I guess they have an offer on the table.

^

Just to be clear, Kennard Farms already sold the south 40 acres and that is in the process of being rezoned.

The north 40 -- at the intersection -- has not sold yet. There could be re-zoning in progress before a potential sale, but I couldn't find anything on that.


I think there is the strong possibility someone got wind that Habitat for Humanity had bought the south 40 (true), but their plan is for 143 single family homes. I could see where someone would become concerned because Habitat works with the underprivileged and get a bit carried away.

Yep, no way that extra 0 could be included in that count.

The "Oklahoma-standard" of helping one another is showing some true colors on this thread, eh? :)

^

I think there is the strong possibility someone got wind that Habitat for Humanity had bought the south 40 (true), but their plan is for 143 single family homes. I could see where someone would become concerned because Habitat works with the underprivileged and get a bit carried away.

I would bet this is the case.. a lot of people hear HFH and immediately equate it to Sec8 housing which is not the case at all.

This entire thought process that some lower-income people may (or may not) be on the way, therefore you MUST sell your house and get out right now is exactly what leads to the suburban decay in the first place. In many cases it's not the low-income people as much as it the higher numbers of middle class fleeing that begin the problems. In fact, many successful neighborhoods, in places other than OKC I grant you, are built entirely on the premise of mixed income.

Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Edgemere, not to mention Midtown and Deep Deuce are all - what - a 3 minute drive (or less?) from serious concentrated poverty. Those neighborhoods are thriving.

This entire thought process that some lower-income people may (or may not) be on the way, therefore you MUST sell your house and get out right now is exactly what leads to the suburban decay in the first place. In many cases it's not the low-income people as much as it the higher numbers of middle class fleeing that begin the problems. In fact, many successful neighborhoods, in places other than OKC I grant you, are built entirely on the premise of mixed income.

Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Edgemere, not to mention Midtown and Deep Deuce are all - what - a 3 minute drive (or less?) from serious concentrated poverty. Those neighborhoods are thriving.

+1

[sub]urban decay is, as you say, a self fulfilling prophecy.

The prediction is, as lower-income people move in, they bring in crime.

The reality is, based on the prediction, the people with the money to help keep the neighborhood afloat sell and move to somewhere else. Thus leaving behind a heavy concentration of people who do not have the income to support lavish landscaping and upkeep. If the middle-class people stayed put, the neighborhood would remain intact and would help keep property values afloat and would encourage those who do not keep their houses in good shape, to make some effort to be reasonable.

Look at it this way, if the neighborhood is 75% middle class, where are the lower-class people going to move to? In your living room? No. They can't buy if you aren't selling. However, if the entire neighborhood packs up in a few short years, there will be a ton of buying opportunity -- it will be a buyers markets as home values devalue. And a lot of that devaluation will be through perception that since a ton of houses are for sale, there must be serious problems.

It's all perception and self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't sell and they can't move in. You can't be forced to sell your home to a lower-income family. By packing up and selling, you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Maybe I am seeing sinister motives where I shouldn't be but I can't help but to think this is an example of modern day blockbusting.

I am not critizing the OP, and I believe that he received this info second-hand. But it seems so over-the-top I can't help but to think someone is doing it purposefully.

Some realtor comes in and says "OMG there putting 10,000 low income units next door to you. Sell now and RUN for your lives!!! Oh, and I'll be more than glad to be your realtor when you do." I'm sure some developer will get a great price on the land bordering this because some old couple has been convinced they're about to plop Lyrewood Lane next door and more than willing to unload it at a steep discount.

Sorry guys, I've just seen this happen way too much to think its not a possibility. And stlokc's post is 100% spot on.

Maybe I am seeing sinister motives where I shouldn't be but I can't help but to think this is an example of modern day blockbusting.

I am not critizing the OP, and I believe that he received this info second-hand. But it seems so over-the-top I can't help but to think someone is doing it purposefully.

Some realtor comes in and says "OMG there putting 10,000 low income units next door to you. Sell now and RUN for your lives!!! Oh, and I'll be more than glad to be your realtor when you do." I'm sure some developer will get a great price on the land bordering this because some old couple has been convinced they're about to plop Lyrewood Lane next door and more than willing to unload it at a steep discount.

Sorry guys, I've just seen this happen way too much to think its not a possibility. And stlokc's post is 100% spot on.

You guys are a tough crowd. It may be hard to comprehend, but now for the 3rd time...I don't know this is fact, and am not communicating it as such. That's the entire reason I posted it here, to see what others thoughts were. If this was even a possibility. When I get the actual information, relayed from his grandma and grandpa, I will definitely relay it here word for word, for your guys dissection.

I think you will find it's a knowledgeable crowd. Some of this information should be relayed to homeowners I the neighborhood. Facts help suppress rumors.

It'd be a cryin' danged shame if someone in the area lets go of their property at a discount, due to a hurry up and sell afore it just be too late scenario that is based on bad intel.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Skiatook,+OK/BOK+Center,+200+S+Denver+Ave,+Tulsa,+OK+74103/@36.166238,-96.002037,3a,75y,304.4h,84.93t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_y3R8yIpAqQH7eNNxesp4A!2e0!4m1 3!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x87b6be527cd97301:0x83f11f23610d c5d!2m2!1d-96.0013847!2d36.3684245!1m5!1m1!1s0x87b6eb771fb2ae f7:0xbae5f119e406ae3a!2m2!1d-95.996148!2d36.152879 here is some "scary" subsidized housing :)

everything looks great brand new ;)

Oh god not the poor people. Ruining my perfect middle class neighborhood.

Just for those who don't know... Section 8, public housing, and low income housing are all separate things. Sec 8 is just a voucher program that supports very high rents so that maintenance and upkeep happens. Public housing authorities operate all kinds of stuff including family housing, senior housing, and market rate housing even. Low income housing is usually construction supported by tax credits for 15 years that will incentivize quality construction and design.

All of these are better than market rate cheap rentals, which is really what will ruin a neighborhood. The subsidy typically exists just so that it isn't crap that ruins neighborhoods.

This thread title should be changed.

Oh god not the poor people. Ruining my perfect middle class neighborhood.

Luckily, I'm not anywhere close to that area of the city...and yes the area in question isn't very nice as it is. But for the individuals in question wanting to move, they are retired, I would assume having to live on a fixed income, with a home that is paid for. So, I wouldn't really consider anything in that area "middle class." Possibly on the lower end of that spectrum. (But these days...its really hard to designate.)


But, I continue to see these "Oh no..not the Poors" comments posted here. Is this the new trend? I mean..for the most part, there's a reason people are "poor." In this Country we live in, where we are free to do what we want, and are all given equal opportunity to build the life that we want, there's no excuse for being "poor." The ONLY excuse for being "Poor" would be if you have a physical or mental disability where most of the time you are not given an opportunity to succeed. So, in my eyes, those who are "poor" are "poor" by choice. Meaning, that at some point in life, they chose alcohol and drugs over being successful. I cant possibly see anyway, that anyone should be considered "poor" if they haven't directly or indirectly been affected by drugs and/or alcohol. So, regardless of what everyone's websters definition of section 8, low income, government housing..etc...is there is nothing good that comes from these types of housing being built. The type of person who has to take advantage of the government programs, have put themselves in, and/or have at one point in time in their lives associated themselves with lazy or worthless people. There is no other explanation for it. These areas are cesspools for drugs/crime, and overall just worthless ****s. It doesn't matter how nice you build the apartments, if you build it...they will come.

Wow, you are so wrong on your knowledge of "poor" people, I can't even begin to educate you, don't have the time or the willpower. I was "poor" when I was laid off from my pretty-well-paying job in Seattle and only had one set of unemployment benefits coming in to support both me and my wife, absolutely no way was that a result of drugs/alcohol, it was because the economy was being ruined (in 2008). You really need to do some reading to find out how people become or are poor (yeah, some are the result of drugs/alcohol, but there are soooooooooooooooooo many other factors, especially in this wonderful new reality we have to live in).

Wow, you are so wrong on your knowledge of "poor" people, I can't even begin to educate you, don't have the time or the willpower.

After reading your post, and you explaining your circumstances, I highly doubt you were poor. If you had a high paying job, you would hopefully have several hundred thousand saved away in an account for unforeseen circumstances such as losing a job. When you were laid off, your incoming money may have not been nearly enough to support your outgoing expenses...but once again...that is not poor. So, I would say that it is you, that is having a hard time defining "poor." If you can sit here today, and comfortably post on an internet message board in the middle of the day...you are not poor.

Several hundred thousand saved? Wtf?

Several hundred thousand saved? Wtf?

I apologize...as I must have jumped to an assumption that he had been at his place of employment for a sustained period of time. He did not provide that information, so there is in fact no way to calculate what percentage of his monthly income was being allocated towards savings.

He has to be trolling this thread pretty hard.

This thread is on a freight train to hell, so I'll just say this before it is ultimately locked.

You are free to have your opinion, but if you are going to keep on running from the poor and others who have the gall to not have "several hundred thousand" not saved up, I think you are going to find yourself very unhappy and probably broke from all your moves.

This entire thought process that some lower-income people may (or may not) be on the way, therefore you MUST sell your house and get out right now is exactly what leads to the suburban decay in the first place. In many cases it's not the low-income people as much as it the higher numbers of middle class fleeing that begin the problems. In fact, many successful neighborhoods, in places other than OKC I grant you, are built entirely on the premise of mixed income.

Heritage Hills, Mesta Park, Edgemere, not to mention Midtown and Deep Deuce are all - what - a 3 minute drive (or less?) from serious concentrated poverty. Those neighborhoods are thriving.

well to be fair I lived in edgemere from 2010-2013 and had my door kicked in in april '13 and they found my stuff across the highway in a neighborhood by 36th and Kelley. but it was only once. I did sell my house for $164 sq/ft so im not complaining that much.

After reading your post, and you explaining your circumstances, I highly doubt you were poor. If you had a high paying job, you would hopefully have several hundred thousand saved away in an account for unforeseen circumstances such as losing a job. When you were laid off, your incoming money may have not been nearly enough to support your outgoing expenses...but once again...that is not poor. So, I would say that it is you, that is having a hard time defining "poor." If you can sit here today, and comfortably post on an internet message board in the middle of the day...you are not poor.

If I had several hundred thousand saved, I wouldn't be working as hard as I do. We have very little savings (we have some, but I'll put it this way - not enough for a standard down payment on a $100K house). And no, I am not poor now, and may not have been *technically* poor in Seattle, but damn, get a clue, there are thousands of reasons someone is poor, and they're not all drug/alcohol/not-enough-gumption-to-get-a-comfortable-job related, that's just so blind....

get a clue, there are thousands of reasons someone is poor, and they're not all drug/alcohol/not-enough-gumption-to-get-a-comfortable-job related, that's just so blind....

I appreciate your continued push in explaining the ways of the World to me, by staying right on the edge of not being directly derogatory towards me. (You know..without actually calling me a name.) However, I would genuinely love to know what ANY of those "Thousands" of reasons are. I truly believe that this is simply not true. How could anyone of good health, and a sound mind be poor? I have already stated that anyone suffering directly, or indirectly from a mental or physical illness are not included within this group. Can you intelligently explain to me, what some other of these thousands of reasons would be? Just a few? Any at all? I am genuinely interested in your response. It might go a long way, in helping me see some people in a different, and more positive light.

I appreciate your continued push in explaining the ways of the World to me, by staying right on the edge of not being directly derogatory towards me. (You know..without actually calling me a name.) However, I would genuinely love to know what ANY of those "Thousands" of reasons are. I truly believe that this is simply not true. How could anyone of good health, and a sound mind be poor? I have already stated that anyone suffering directly, or indirectly from a mental or physical illness are not included within this group. Can you intelligently explain to me, what some other of these thousands of reasons would be? Just a few? Any at all? I am genuinely interested in your response. It might go a long way, in helping me see some people in a different, and more positive light.

Let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+are+people+poor%3F)

Let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+are+people+poor%3F)


Thanks! It looks like 8 of the first 10, support my thoughts. Which is why I asked for a real explanation. For the most part, they can all be summed up by this statement...

Being poor is due to making bad choices

Interestingly enough, most poor people think they're poor due to circumstance, yet you would be hard pressed to find a wealthy person think they're wealthy due to circumstance.

Thanks! It looks like 8 of the first 10, support my thoughts. Which is why I asked for a real explanation. For the most part, they can all be summed up by this statement...

Being Poor: Bad choices, not a bad economy, are to blame

You may not be wrong in saying that people's choices can land themselves in poverty..but the way you're saying it just comes across as "filthy".

You may not be wrong in saying that people's choices can land themselves in poverty..but the way you're saying it just comes across as "filthy".


Everything in this Country has become so PC, and everyone is so worried about offending this group, or that group. That's part of the issue, with the way our Country is declining. The real social issues are out there for everyone to see...yet, everyone feels like there must be equality in everything, and is scared to talk about them. Its sad really. As soon as everyone is comfortable in discussing the issues, maybe we can find a way to fix the issues.

OK, this is it and I'm done, this isn't the thread for it, and I don't feel like debating/arguing with you, pointless since your mind's pretty much made up. You appear to be one of those people that I can't stand that think that poor people just need to get a better job, need to work harder, need to get a better car, etc. in order to lift themselves out of poverty because it's all their fault. I don't have time for those kind of people. There are lots of other factors at work, even allowing for the "8 of the first 10" results that support your reasoning (and if you don't know, the top 10 you see are probably different than the top 10 I see), and I really don't have time to fill you in on those since you appear to be pretty closed-minded about this.

Oh, and yeah, wealthy people all think they got there by hard work, but check out the facts, there are *tons* of wealthy folks that are trust fund wealthy (circumstance), or inheritance wealthy (ditto). Basically, being born into the right place at the right time is a good indicator of how wealthy you'll become, and it has something to do with how poor you are too.

Here's a link that may help you understand the "bad choices":

http://www.alternet.org/economy/why-poor-people-make-bad-decisions?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/jon-stewart-popcorn11.gif

Are there bad poor people? Yes

Are there good poor people dealt a bad beat at some point, working to make it back? Yes

End of thread...too many dynamics and variables to paint with as broad a brush as some are doing here.

If I can speak to the people attacking other people who might be concerned if a POTENTIAL uninspiring development might be coming to their area. When you see the passion those people display, it's got less to do with the notion that they "hate the poor" and probably more to do with the fact that for most people, their home is the largest investment they'll ever own. When something threatens the value of that investment, it induces some passion and fire (sometimes maybe not well directed). I get that, I'm going through the same thing now.

It can be hard to live on a fixed or low income. Everything goes up but your income. I see cars that are beat up and smoking and I think , maybe they are doing the best they can. There can be a fine line between a hand up and a hand out.

It can be hard to live on a fixed or low income. Everything goes up but your income. I see cars that are beat up and smoking and I think , maybe they are doing the best they can. There can be a fine line between a hand up and a hand out. I've made some stupid decisions and bad luck. I own my own home. Neighbors can be a roll of the dice.

OK, this is it and I'm done, this isn't the thread for it, and I don't feel like debating/arguing with you, pointless since your mind's pretty much made up. You appear to be one of those people that I can't stand that think that poor people just need to get a better job, need to work harder, need to get a better car, etc. in order to lift themselves out of poverty because it's all their fault. I don't have time for those kind of people. There are lots of other factors at work, even allowing for the "8 of the first 10" results that support your reasoning (and if you don't know, the top 10 you see are probably different than the top 10 I see), and I really don't have time to fill you in on those since you appear to be pretty closed-minded about this.

Oh, and yeah, wealthy people all think they got there by hard work, but check out the facts, there are *tons* of wealthy folks that are trust fund wealthy (circumstance), or inheritance wealthy (ditto). Basically, being born into the right place at the right time is a good indicator of how wealthy you'll become, and it has something to do with how poor you are too.

Here's a link that may help you understand the "bad choices":

http://www.alternet.org/economy/why-poor-people-make-bad-decisions?paging=off¤t_page=1#bookmark

You seem to be getting somewhat more emotional with every post. This is an open discussion, and my mind is very open to hearing your thoughts. However, you continue to run in circles and instead of contributing real info, or even sharing personal opinion, you resort to calling me "one of those" people or that I'm close minded, and that my mind is already made up. I'm actually none of those. I asked you several posts ago, to give me just one example. Just ONE...and you couldn't do it.

You are correct in that this is not the correct thread for this discussion, but it is still a discussion that should be had nonetheless.


When discussing circumstance, you are correct in the fact that most people are born into a good situation, or a bad situation. But at some point in time, in the "Circle of Life," somewhere along the family tree someone made a good decision or a bad decision that would effect many generations moving forward. Yes, there are many who are born into trust fund situations, or receive a big inheritance...but somewhere along the line...someone in their family lineage worked hard to put themselves into that situation.

The same could be said for people who experience poverty. Somewhere along the lone, someone decided that they would rather sit around and smoke crack all day instead of working hard, and building for their future. If the government is going to help them out, and give them housing at a discounted rate, and continue to give them assistance, while they can sit at home, getting high, playing video games all day...why wouldn't they. And of course these same people want to have as many kids as possible...because the more kids they have...the more money they get from the government. So, now there's 6 more kids in this World.....who grow up in poverty, without parents that give a damn about anything. they grow up around 50 other kids in the neighborhood in the same situation. Before you know it, they're 15 years old, breaking into cars selling drugs, and being worthless...just like the generations before them. Rinse and Repeat. They have no reason to try to better themselves, because the government is keeping them afloat. Of those kids, many will be lucky to not end up in prison, but most will be poor. Is it their fault...no...not really. Its the cards they were dealt. But they were delt those cards, because of the decisions someone made before them

So, you want to paint the picture that "poor" people have it hard, and are trying to do everything they can to crawl their way out. Well, that's fine. I am not disputing that. But for everyone of those poors that ARE trying hard...there's 100 more, who are perfectly content with being worthless all day, doing absolutely nothing, waiting on their government assistance check.

I am poh as crap...BUT, I am happy! :)

8874

You seem to be getting somewhat more emotional with every post. This is an open discussion, and my mind is very open to hearing your thoughts. However, you continue to run in circles and instead of contributing real info, or even sharing personal opinion, you resort to calling me "one of those" people or that I'm close minded, and that my mind is already made up. I'm actually none of those. I asked you several posts ago, to give me just one example. Just ONE...and you couldn't do it.

I *chose* not to do it, you have google (and bing and yahoo and ...), go do some digging yourself, examples are easy to find. But here ya go - one circumstance that would make people poor that isn't directly a choice of the poor person is the economy tanking, getting laid off, not having enough savings to handle a lengthy period of unemployment, not being able to pay the rent/mortgage, ending up homeless, not being able to get a new job because nobody's hiring at a living wage, and so the spiral goes. I have way too much crap happening IRL to go on a lengthy discussion with you about this, and I made the closed-minded comment because I believed you were, glad to hear you're not, but before I go any further, I'd like to know the following:

Do you believe what Fox News says?
Do you believe in creationism?
Do you agree with all the current laws/bills being enacted that hinder a woman's right to make decisions about her own body?
Do you think same-sex marriage is OK?
Do you think discrimination against LBGT people is OK?
Do you think the high level of income inequality in the USA is/has been damaging our economy?

I already know what you think about poor people, but I'll know how to discuss with you when I hear what you have to say on those issues. And, for the record, my answers are no, no, no, yes, no, yes just so you know where I stand.

I agree with you that there are "bad" poor people and "good" poor people, just like there are of any kind of person you want to talk about, but I believe that we need to help each other out *as a society* (that's what makes Sweden, Norway, etc. such good places to live - they work together and with each other) and fix our problems, which we have an enormous amount of and they're not getting any better.

But here ya go - one circumstance that would make people poor that isn't directly a choice of the poor person is the economy tanking, getting laid off, not having enough savings to handle a lengthy period of unemployment, not being able to pay the rent/mortgage, ending up homeless, not being able to get a new job because nobody's hiring at a living wage, and so the spiral goes.

I truly believe that if an individual has the capability of holding a job within the first place, that even if they were to lose said job...I would find it hard to technically consider that person "poor." They might go through tough periods of time, in regards to income flow....but they're not "poor." I have a difficult time listening to everyone complain about the economy all of the time. It is very rare, that someone bitching about the bad economy is actually directly affected by the economy. But because everyone else is complaining, they want to blame all of their personal short comings on the economy. If a company wants to narrow their margin in regards to total overhead during tough financial times, they might make some cuts, releasing x number of employees to help the bottom line. Of course, the employees that are let go will have everyone believe that their company HAD to let them go "because of the economy." When in fact, it probably has more to do with the fact, that said individual didn't bring much value to that company in the first place. (That's why they were expendable) If you are good at what you do, and bring value to your place of employment...you wont have any issues in finding newemployment...anywhere...in ANY economic climate.



I have way too much crap happening IRL to go on a lengthy discussion with you about this, Guess what....this is Real Life.

I am not certain what any of your questions below have to do with the topic at hand, but once again tells me that you live in a life, that if you are TOLD something....you believe it. (Without, allowing much critical thought of your own.) But, I will agree to answer all of your questions, to the best of my ability, and answer as honestly as I possibly can.

Do you believe what Fox News says? Fox News, like all other news outlets, are nothing more than entertainment. They are "reporting the news," yet offer the information in such a way to push their beliefs, and/or offer their own spin on the story. I do not have a differing opinion of ANY news outlet. They are all the same to me, in regards to what information they are reporting. I watch primarily for entertainment value, and do not look for hidden agendas, conspiracy theories nor do I 2nd guess any information being broadcast. To me.....it's just something to watch. So, I do not live my life trying to dissect, why one new agency would try to paint a different picture than another.

Do you believe in creationism? Unfortunately, I do not have an opinion either way on creationism. I am also somewhat ambigious to everyones beliefs around me. At any given time, I go back and forth on what I believe. But, I am not one to lean either way on this discussion.

Do you agree with all the current laws/bills being enacted that hinder a woman's right to make decisions about her own body? I do not claim to be privy to every single law/bill that is currently being "enacted." To say that I know anything about any of them, would be a stretch. It is not something that directly affects my life in anyway..so, its difficult for me to say. Basically, in a nutshell...... I couldn't give two ****s.

Do you think same-sex marriage is OK? Of course. Marriage should be between two people who love each other.

Do you think discrimination against LBGT people is OK? Hmm. Discrimination is such a strong word. For the most part, its been my experience that most of the "groups" of people who believe they are being "discriminated" against are NOT being discriminated against at all. But because they are so sensitive, and so aware of their "group, race, and/or condition," that a lot times simple gestures, or everyday occurrences are misconstrued as discrimination. But to answer the question...NO. Real discrimination against the LBGT is not OK.

Do you think the high level of income inequality in the USA is/has been damaging our economy? I understand the logistics behind the numbers. My educational background is in finance, and my profession closely parallels. This is an entirely different conversation, that could also go on for many pages. But at the end of the day, it comes down to Socialism vs. Capitalism. And I lean so far towards Capitalism its not even funny. So, to honestly answer your original question... Yes, I do think that the income inequality has been somewhat damaging to our economy, however I just don't care. This Country was built upon having the freedom, to do whatever you want. It's there for the taking. So, for those that want to get ahead in life, and be successful...the opportunity is there.

Do you believe what Fox News says?
Do you believe in creationism?
Do you agree with all the current laws/bills being enacted that hinder a woman's right to make decisions about her own body?
Do you think same-sex marriage is OK?
Do you think discrimination against LBGT people is OK?
Do you think the high level of income inequality in the USA is/has been damaging our economy?This certainly seems to be a series of loaded questions, on the order of the classic "Have you stopped beating your wife?" attributed to an anonymous attorney demanding a "yes or no" answer.

However, just for kicks I'll try answering them as honestly as I can.

I consider Faux News to be several orders of magnitude less reliable than the most sensational of such supermarket tablids as the Weekly World News.

I have no fixed opinion either way about creationism as such; I do believe that we humans know far less about the universe than we like to think we do, and this question falls into the class of those unknowns that we're not yet able to even conceive of an accurate explanation.

I disagree with just about all laws that seek to replace "live with the consequences of your decisions" by zero-tolerance legislation.

If two people choose to spend their lives together, I don't think they need the blessing of either church or government to do so -- but neither should they be denied the benefits available to those who have such a blessing.

While I'm opposed to stereotyped discriminatory practices in theory, I do realize that the primary purpose of education is to teach us to make discriminating choices, and I do reserve the right to make my own choices of associates -- and live with any consequences of those choices.

Finally, the high level of income inequality throughout the world (it's not limited to the USA by any means) obviously creates an unstable situation which eventually damages all economies. However the success of some start-up industries indicates that our culture, unlike some of the older European societies, does at least offer the chance for people to break out of the pack. I'm thinking of Woz and Steve Jobs, who started Apple out of a home garage; Bill Gates doesn't count so much since he was a member of the "one percent" to begin with and got his big break through his mother's influence. A few others come to mind: Waco Turner, who discovered the East Texas oil field, was one. In Oklahoma City we can look back to Anton Classen as another example, or even E. K. Gaylord, who came to town as a chamber of commerce organizer and built a publishing/entertainment empire.

So do these answers paint me as a hidebound conservative, a radical liberal, or just another somewhat mystified human making it through life day by day?

Thanks! It looks like 8 of the first 10, support my thoughts. Which is why I asked for a real explanation. For the most part, they can all be summed up by this statement...

Being poor is due to making bad choices

Interestingly enough, most poor people think they're poor due to circumstance, yet you would be hard pressed to find a wealthy person think they're wealthy due to circumstance.I have my own thoughts about poor people that have received heavy backlash from posters on here, but people make mistakes and sometimes the times get hard.

This certainly seems to be a series of loaded questions, on the order of the classic "Have you stopped beating your wife?" attributed to an anonymous attorney demanding a "yes or no" answer.

However, just for kicks I'll try answering them as honestly as I can.



Heh, yeah, they were loaded, but I wanted to see if I was going to talk to another Prunepicker (and if so, was going to waste my time). Just weeding out the extreme right, basically. They were aimed at Filthy, but thanks for answering, and IMO, your opinions are intelligent, well-thought-out, and seem to make you like most of us - a mixed bag trying to figure out how to make things work in this weird world we now live in. Oh, and I don't think I've mentioned this, but thanks for your posts, they're pretty much always informative and good to read.

And thanks, Filthy, for answering, I don't have time to go into detail now (and probably will do that in another thread in Politics to get this one back on track, since it's turning political and should go there), but glad to see you're not another Prunepicker (you can poke around in past threads to see what I'm talking about).

I have my own thoughts about poor people that have received heavy backlash from posters on here, but people make mistakes and sometimes the times get hard.
Aren't u adopted from 3rd world country?

Might be an interesting perspective on poor people.

Aren't u adopted from 3rd world country?

Might be an interesting perspective on poor people.wtf? Are you stupid or something? Maybe you're just trolling...

wtf? Are you stupid or something? Maybe you're just trolling...
I thought you have said before that you were adopted from the middle east?

That's why I thought you might have an interesting opinion on poverty and situations out of your control changing

I thought you have said before that you were adopted from the middle east?

That's why I thought you might have an interesting opinion on poverty and situations out of your control changingNo sir. Sorry if I offended, I thought you were trying to be an ass.

My grandfather was from the Middle East, Iran more specifically, and I was going to go this month, but wasn't able to get an Iranian passport in time so I can't go. The worst poverty I've ever experienced first hand was in the suburbs of Mexico City and I honestly can't understand how it get worse. I still want to travel and experience other lifestyles in my life so I can obtain new perspectives on the world.

Thanks for the clarity – sorry for misunderstanding.

One of my close friends was adopted from Korea and has been back a few times to see his birth parents. While Korea is much better today than it once was, his parents still live in 3rd world poverty. He’s explained how its hard to put into words but it makes you realize first how different your life would be, and second how there is no possible chance for escape.

Seeing his parents mental abilities, conditions they live in, generation after generation poverty (everything from loss of teeth, speech patterns, discrimination from social classes) there is no way for them or the others to escape. Unless someone with money comes in and says ‘I want that baby’ they are locked into it the rest of their life. There is quite literally nothing a person can do to overcome the climb out besides try to sell drugs / prostitution which in almost all cases further locks them in.

I think we see a lot of the same thing here in the states. Last time I checked the gov stats something like 37% of whites, and 38% of blacks were on welfare. While we have more avenues for a person to escape (sports, adoption, military) its impossible to not acknowledge that each day a child is left in the situation the closer they become to being locked into generational poverty. They pick up the mannerisms, speech patterns (ghetto or trailer) life style, health choices, education levels, drugs, children at young ages, etc. If they reach the age of 18 without some major avenue of escape they are done and it becomes more beneficial for them to sit at home and collect a check from the government vs working in the low wage jobs they would qualify for – so the cycle starts all over again.

Ive often thought that maybe doing away with welfare would motivate (much like the illegal immigrants), but then you also have to realize for each one you see working to death to make a few dollars an hour there are numerous other ones who would rather get fast money with drugs and gangs and I cant say I blame them. Either way the poverty continues.