I'd love for the tower that's second from the far right to be built - the one on the site of the BOK Park Plaza.
Yeah no kidding! Can we start a go fund me for the demo of the existing tower? ;)

Yeah no kidding! Can we start a go fund me for the demo of the existing tower? ;)
Let me clarify - I was pointing out which tower I wanted to see built by saying it's on that lot, not to replace that existing one. Make sense?

Times are different now, not like it was 20 years ago. Towers are built cheaper & quicker than ever before. I wouldn't be surprised if we see something this decade.

See Rover’s post on costs, but even if it were cheaper, no one is going to build an office tower to sit empty just because construction costs are cheaper than they were a few years ago (and they’re not). They’re going to want a tenant lined up before they even get financing. There are no tenants in that context for downtown OKC right now.

Let me clarify - I was pointing out which tower I wanted to see built by saying it's on that lot, not to replace that existing one. Make sense?
Oh I understand. I want to see the new replaced with the one in the rendering and the original four towers that were more Art Deco looking built on the stage center.

Since I’m talking fantasy I might as well throw in I’d like to see the existing parking garages removed and original buildings rebuilt. Add the parking under the new tower and make it twice as high. :cool:

It just seems like we don't have that much to show for The Longest Economic Expansion in U.S. History.

Sure, we've added a few Aerospace contractors, some Paycom jobs and a few chic restaurants, but the oil companies are in shambles, the state government is still a mess, and the local banks (MidFirst, et al.) are beginning to tighten the screws on commercial real estate lending. Those guys aren't idiots; they were here in the 80s.

Should have spent more of that MAPS money on landing non-O&G employers.

It just seems like we don't have that much to show for The Longest Economic Expansion in U.S. History.

Sure, we've added a few Aerospace contractors, some Paycom jobs and a few chic restaurants, but the oil companies are in shambles, the state government is still a mess, and the local banks (MidFirst, et al.) are beginning to tighten the screws on commercial real estate lending. Those guys aren't idiots; they were here in the 80s.

Should have spent more of that MAPS money on landing non-O&G employers.

It may feel like that but the city’s GDP data tells the exact opposite story.

Like just waving off the fact a non O&G company with a $17 billion market cap grew here organically and is committed to staying here.

I know of at least 10 people who are quietly millionaires now because of paycom. There’s hundreds more I’m sure.

“Some paycom jobs”

Every other midsize city that competes with okc would murder for a paycom.

It may feel like that but the city’s GDP data tells the exact opposite story.

Like just waving off the fact a non O&G company with a $17 billion market cap grew here organically and is committed to staying here.

I know of at least 10 people who are quietly millionaires now because of paycom. There’s hundreds more I’m sure.

“Some paycom jobs”

Every other midsize city that competes with okc would murder for a paycom.

Yea, the $17B valuation is a shocker. Not sure why the market is giving PAYC a tech company valuation. Sure, they are growing but the equity trading at 100x earnings makes little sense.

Yea, the $17B valuation is a shocker. Not sure why the market is giving PAYC a tech company valuation. Sure, they are growing but the equity trading at 100x earnings makes little sense.

They are a tech company. They support their tech with customer support.

They are a tech company. They support their tech with customer support.

Wrong. Go check the P/E multiples of its peers (ADP and Paychex).

Well, we may not have gotten those beautiful high rises, but we did get a functional outdoor basketball court.

Well, we may not have gotten those beautiful high rises, but we did get a functional outdoor basketball court.
The only sad thing is that people who play on it may never fully know who Rainy Williams is.

Wrong. Go check the P/E multiples of its peers (ADP and Paychex).

I don’t think you understand what paycom does.

This is like arguing Folgers and Starbucks should have similar multiples.

They do the same basic thing. They are not the same thing though.

The only sad thing is that people who play on it may never fully know who Rainy Williams is.

Literally who?

I don’t think you understand what paycom does.

This is like arguing Folgers and Starbucks should have similar multiples.

They do the same basic thing. They are not the same thing though.

this is absolutly correct

I don’t think you understand what paycom does.

This is like arguing Folgers and Starbucks should have similar multiples.

They do the same basic thing. They are not the same thing though.

Literally the exact same thing:

https://www.paychex.com/
https://www.adp.com/
https://www.paycom.com/

From Morningstar's bull case: ADP and Paychex serve over 1 million businesses, providing Paycom with ample opportunity to gain share by displacing incumbants.

Literally who?
G. Rainey Williams was a prominent physician in Oklahoma and has a building named after him in OUHSC, plus an endowed chair, and possibly a hospital wing.

His son went into finance instead of medicine, but still managed to do okay.

If you think these buildings won’t be built then you must not know Rainy Williams.

I'd love for the tower that's second from the far right to be built - the one on the site of the BOK Park Plaza.

I agree. This whole proposal is gorgeous, but I especially like the one on the right.

Obviously it looks like we're overbuilt as far as office towers go right now. We've also got a lot of vacant land downtown, and with the new park and then the Co-op site, and then the innovation district, there's a metric butt-load of downtown-adjacent land available too. It seems to me that we need an enormous amount of infill before more high rises make economic sense. We could have 20 years of building 3-4 story buildings at our current rate before that changes. Right now, skyscrapers are a vanity project in OKC.

Mixed-use mid-rise infill projects are more important anyway to continue activating downtown, and I think they are much more likely to happen than any given speculated tower.

I believe we'll see some mid-rise development on the west side of Scissortail Park in the next 5 years.

Yea, the $17B valuation is a shocker. Not sure why the market is giving PAYC a tech company valuation. Sure, they are growing but the equity trading at 100x earnings makes little sense.

On quickly growing companies with huge upsides you don't value based on current earnings, but rather on what you expect future earnings to be. You can't look at it the same way you would value traditional NYSE companies that are older and more developed.

Personally, I would love to see a modified version of this as the future replacement of the Cox Center. But I think it would require a fairly hefty government subsidy and a visionary developer to pull it off. But we just keep opening up more and more empty land, and that prevents us from getting a critical mass of development necessary for stuff like this.

Personally, I would love to see a modified version of this as the future replacement of the Cox Center. But I think it would require a fairly hefty government subsidy and a visionary developer to pull it off. But we just keep opening up more and more empty land, and that prevents us from getting a critical mass of development necessary for stuff like this.


Very much this.

The Cox Center site should absolutely be dense, high-rise construction built to the street as an extension of the Business District density to be found along Main/Park/Robert S Kerr. As much as possible, the OG&E land west of the Gardens should be the same.

Apart from that, further infill of 5-ish-story buildings throughout Midtown is preferable to doing anything along the west side of Scissortail Park for the foreseeable future.

We have too much open land. I guess there are worse problems a city could have, but it does prevent density and vitality.

Literally who?

You don't know Rainey Williams???

Literally the exact same thing:

https://www.paychex.com/
https://www.adp.com/
https://www.paycom.com/

From Morningstar's bull case: ADP and Paychex serve over 1 million businesses, providing Paycom with ample opportunity to gain share by displacing incumbants.

The Folgers to Starbucks comparison is apt. Both are coffee companies just as those 3 are all payroll processing companies. But their take on how to deliver coffee to their customer base is wildly different, as is the quality of the service/product.

I'd struggle to call Folgers and Starbucks the same thing, but if you insist on calling all coffee companies a coffee company, then it's not worth a debate.

As to the stock...the P/E is obviously eye-popping. As an employee of Paycom I think most of us are surprised to see the valuation where it is today based on current output, but institutional investors don't just look at today. If you are running hedge funds and retirement funds, then getting in on a company that you believe is going to capture a substantial market share over the next 5 to 10 years and doing so at tech company profit margins, then you're going to be eager to build your position so that when the company changes over from growth mode to sustain and build mode, the dividends look nice or a sizable gain can be taken.

Certainly it's not going to increase by 2000% over the next 5 years the way it did in the previous 5, but the company is in a great position in a market that is poised for growth across the board. And hey, the stock just became part of the S&P 500, so that's something.

Definitely a massive win for OKC...just a shame that the growth is all in NW OKC :wink:

OG&E Should concentrate on building one plaza...

https://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r960-aabffc26ae8e500e143410cece30472a.jpg

https://www.emporis.com/images/show/125021-Large-fullheightview-view-to-the-northeast.jpg

https://hot-town-images.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/kwtv/production/2013/December/17/new-downtown-okc-tower-to-serve-as-headquarters-for-oge.1387302195000.jpeg

https://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r620-8362fb0436a1bb7409e0e48a55ee5827.jpg

Should our city buy back the Stage Center site...

Clayco & OG&E Development: https://www.oklahoman.com/article/5136762/something-you-didnt-know-about-the-stage-center-development

^OGE Energy is never going to build a tower because they are becoming a pure play electric utility again, and any investment like that could not be justified for inclusion in customer rates. I doubt OGE shareholders want to shell out a few hundred million for a vanity project, and the C-suite knows this.

If they wanted new digs, they could deal with a developer to build space then lease it back. Right now, it would make more financial sense for them to do something like lease space somewhere like the Chesapeake HQ.

They could just buy the BOK Park Plaza from Devon.

It is still empty but the 5 floors occupied by BOK.

14948

Still one of the best posts in OKCTalk history.

They could just buy the BOK Park Plaza from Devon.

It is still empty but the 5 floors occupied by BOK.

Could probably even get Rainey Williams involved!

They could just buy the BOK Park Plaza from Devon.

It is still empty but the 5 floors occupied by BOK.

I thought Enable Midstream moved in as well? This didn't happen?

https://www.oklahoman.com/article/5635902/enable-midstream-completes-move

Could probably even get Rainey Williams involved!
You don’t know Rainey Williams!

I thought Enable Midstream moved in as well? This didn't happen?

https://www.oklahoman.com/article/5635902/enable-midstream-completes-move

It did. Enable is definitely in the BOKP. But point still stands, not many occupants.

Most Enable employees have been working from home for the last year.

Also most of those employees will either be laid off or moved to Dallas in the near future.

Isn't there also a law firm in BOK?

I am so curious why buildings in OKC take so long to fill up. I was just in Denver and Salt Lake City (yes SLC) and was blown away by the amount of buildings and construction in those cities. Yes, even SLC which has a shorter downtown and long has had a smaller downtown now has very many buildings (still short) and building more. ..

OKC should really figure out what it's peer cities are doing (yes I include Denver as a peer) and get with the program. Im not saying OKC needs to artificially build spec towers but we need to figure out how our peers are continually adding whereas we can't even fill anything without cannibalizing elsewhere or at all.

I didn't really see who is located in those SLC buildings but I wonder if the state of UT is a major component - when I did business long ago in SLC in the mid-1990s there was not much "business" there. OKC should be able to fill BOK (and BankFirst) nicely yet it seems we can't. ...

Isn't there also a law firm in BOK?

I am so curious why buildings in OKC take so long to fill up. I was just in Denver and Salt Lake City (yes SLC) and was blown away by the amount of buildings and construction in those cities. Yes, even SLC which has a shorter downtown and long has had a smaller downtown now has very many buildings (still short) and building more. ..

OKC should really figure out what it's peer cities are doing (yes I include Denver as a peer) and get with the program. Im not saying OKC needs to artificially build spec towers but we need to figure out how our peers are continually adding whereas we can't even fill anything without cannibalizing elsewhere or at all.

I didn't really see who is located in those SLC buildings but I wonder if the state of UT is a major component - when I did business long ago in SLC in the mid-1990s there was not much "business" there. OKC should be able to fill BOK (and BankFirst) nicely yet it seems we can't. ...

because you can build in the burbs in okc much much cheaper and you are still 10-20 min to downtown .

SLC also has really good commuter rail into downtown that was built for the Winter Olympics. That's an advantage. But, I'll have to check out downtown more next time I'm there this summer because I haven't been very impressed with downtown SLC in my previous visits. I certainly thought OKC's downtown was better overall.

SLC has longer blocks than OKC if I recall (I think 550 ft vs 450 ft, but I'm probably off on those numbers).

Isn't there also a law firm in BOK?

They are just now building out a fraction of one floor.

Oklahoma City
1 Devon Energy Center________844
2 BancFirst Tower______________500
3 First National Center_________493
4 City Place Tower______________440
5 BOK Park Plaza_______________437
6 Oklahoma Tower_____________434

Salt Lake City
1 Wells Fargo Center____________422
2 LDS Church Office Bdg_________420
3 111 South Main_______________387
4 99 West on South Temple______375
5 KeyBank Building_____________351
6 One Utah Cente_______________350

OKC's sixth tallest building (Oklahoma Tower, 434) tops all six of SLC's six tallest...

Source:
Oklahoma City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_Oklahoma_City
Salt Lake City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_Salt_Lake_City

SLC has longer blocks than OKC if I recall (I think 550 ft vs 450 ft, but I'm probably off on those numbers).

Interesting about why SLC has such large blocks.

https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-salt-lake-city-extra-wide-streets.html

SLC also has really good commuter rail into downtown that was built for the Winter Olympics. That's an advantage. But, I'll have to check out downtown more next time I'm there this summer because I haven't been very impressed with downtown SLC in my previous visits. I certainly thought OKC's downtown was better overall.

dan - I totally agree that overall downtown OKC is better (and has been) and certainly taller no doubt. But SLC has a LOT of new buildings downtown and more U/C, none really tall but in my driving by their skyline did look more impressive than ever.

Larry - OKC's wiki needs updating. ...

I’ll check out downtown SLC when I’m there in a couple months and report back! :)

I've been there a few times for work. I think SLC retains a much higher population of it's children where OKC has that huge business vacuum to the immediate south. There is more hi tech and finance there and the church probably keeps many young there. As in most places until Covid, they had preferred to live near downtown.

dan - I totally agree that overall downtown OKC is better (and has been) and certainly taller no doubt. But SLC has a LOT of new buildings downtown and more U/C, none really tall but in my driving by their skyline did look more impressive than ever.

Larry - OKC's wiki needs updating. ...

Tell me why you think it needs updating--is there something that's missing on those 'tallest buildings list of six tallest selected...

Back to OG&E: The Clayco project where Pete said they were in over their heads, IIRC the design had four towers (16 - 19 stories) two of which were residential components.

https://www.okctalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9265&d=1412690086

OG&E should build one 36 - 40 story tower with a residential section on one side of the tower with a north or south entrance where the OG&E corporate headquarters and the residential components are separate. More of an office/residential mixed use tower.


https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/the-development-tracker/images/Old-Articles/minneapolis/new-renderings-appear-for-united-properties-gateway-project/Screen2BShot2B2019-05-142Bat2B5.18.042BPM-format2500wslugnew-renderings-appear-for-united-properties-gateway-projectkey1.jpg

Or this

http://digital.olivesoftware.com/olive/ODN/HoustonChronicle/shared/image.ashx?kind=snippet&href=HHC%2F2017%2F06%2F26&id=Pc01304&sk=9BD45F84

Could a development like this work...

^^^ please f@ck no. We don’t need more soulless bland glass boxes.

^^^ please f@ck no. We don’t need more soulless bland glass boxes.

LOL

OG&E obviously doesn't have the funds to build an iconic headquarters:


https://hot-town-images.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/kwtv/production/2013/December/17/new-downtown-okc-tower-to-serve-as-headquarters-for-oge.1387302195000.jpeg

https://journalrecord.com/files/2015/04/mf-ELEV-OGE-2-ctsy--300x160.jpg

Suggestions please . . ..

Interesting about why SLC has such large blocks.

https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-salt-lake-city-extra-wide-streets.html

Very interesting, thanks

Laramie those are great suggestions for a modern city. I like how Devon tower reflects the sky especially as the sun is setting.

@Plutonic Panda
To be fair, a lot of those "soulless bland glass boxes" do a lot for the aesthetic of the city. Not only do they offer great views from inside, they offer really nice photo ops for the sunrise and sunset. A skyline in the middle of nowhere has to have some sort of appeal, and seeing the towers of the city go from blue in the day, to orange, pink, and red in the evening is a really nice thing to look at. Sometimes, it drags photographers from around the country to tour the city for their pictures (not a big thing, but it helps with the tourism dollars).

To divert for a little while: Mixed-use towers have massive international appeal, so it should also work here. It can also be used to offer some affordable housing to prevent gentrification efforts. Not only that, but it will drive more people to look at living downtown as an alternative. The only thing stopping that from being a viable reality is mass transit. If Oklahoma had a rail system that connected towns like Norman, Midwest City, Edmond, Stillwater, Tulsa, and Moore, you would see the downtown core of both the major cities grow by a bare minimum of 20%. At max, it could set up a decade of growth that would start to see mass developments akin to Houston and Austin. It would not only put the complex in the running to compete with those of Texas, but draw from other neighboring states as well.

Back on to the topic at hand, I would suggest that OG&E look at having mixed use towers as a way to utilize the space and potentially house employees and other tenants. That would also help expand the skyline.

It would be nice if we could do better but I guess a desperate city will take it what it can get. I certainly won’t be upset if OKC lands another skyscraper even if it what I consider a soulless glass box but if they step it up and actually add other styles of architecture to it then that is icing on the cake.

Tell me why you think it needs updating--is there something that's missing on those 'tallest buildings list of six tallest selected...

the wiki list has BOK lower ranked than OK tower despite it being taller. Omni still shows as proposed/planned and not complete, similarly Renaissance Hotel Bricktown which is U/C. Appears most of OKC's 200-300 ft buildings aren't there (whereas ALL of SLCs were).

Also there's no real write-up or story/history when compared to other cities; lots of missing citations reminders for OKC while other cities don't need them (??). Subjective - but the picture could be updated to include BOK and perhaps Omni now. ..

Caught that mistake:


Oklahoma City
1 Devon Energy Center________844
2 BancFirst Tower______________500
3 First National Center_________493
4 City Place Tower______________440
5 BOK Park Plaza_______________437
6 Oklahoma Tower_____________434 See Post #2681

That why I listed BOK Park Plaza 5 and Oklahoma Tower 6. BTW Didn't list any buildings beyond Oklahoma Tower...

Go back and check Post #2681, Got you covered Bro!

I have never heard about this idea before, totally love it, it would be so cool if it actually happened.
https://www.jenx67.com/2012/06/john-johansen-and-the-okc-childrens-museum.html

https://i.imgur.com/82KHR41.png
https://i.imgur.com/P1N2Xod.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oy2P9sd.jpg

Well, none of that stuff is there any longer. There were some cool ideas, too bad we didn't get a development on this land.

That idea was heavily pushed at the time ahead of the demo, but now that it's gone, it won't be happening, at least not in that form.

The Stage Center sign is listed on Facebook Marketplace.

https://i.imgur.com/VztPrYu.png

Can't believe they're trying to make money off it, should be donated for some sort of creative use.