The OG&E/Rainey Williams/Stage Center debacle is a textbook example of some of the worst mistakes OKC made during urban renewal. It was the same formula every time with developers coming in with big promises, demolishing the historic building stock, and then just sitting on the land or if they did develop it, they built something significantly scaled down from the original proposal that would have never otherwise been approved. It's infuriating that this kind of stuff is still going on.

And they just call up the Oklahoman who runs a big front-of-the-business-page PR story and we're supposed to be happy they tore down an architectural (albeit controversial) icon, conducted a big ruse about their ownership (also facilitated by the Oklahoman), dangled a bunch of far-fetched renderings in order to gloss over what was happening (another Oklahoman exclusive), sat on the property for years, made a promise over 2 years ago to at least take down the fences (guess where that story was put forward with zero follow-up), have zero current plans to do anything with it, but are finally adding a couple of sports courts.

This is how things work in this town -- especially when one of the big Chamber / Energy companies are involved -- and why most people think things are going great because that is what they are constantly told by the Oklahoman and the local power brokers.

THIS is why we need an outsider as a City Manager, not another hand-picked puppet by a small amount of powerful people.

Remember that when all these supposed unpardonable sins were being perpetrated by former city leadership, people then thought things were great too.


Each small event doesn't seem like a big deal, especially when they are spread out over more than half a decade. Then suddenly you realize the public has been lied to repeatedly and years later, we are getting a basketball court on one of the most valuable pieces of property in all of downtown, surrouned by litterally billions of taxpayer improvements.

Well what can us Plebians do about this?

Well what can us Plebians do about this?

Hold your city council rep accountable. Vote them out if they are not. Do not vote for council candidates who are puppets and yes-people for the powerful.

How and why on earth did the sale agreement not include a clawback provision where if they didn’t develop it as awarded within so many years that the property is automatically reverted back to OCURA?

How and why on earth did the sale agreement not include a clawback provision where if they didn’t develop it as awarded within so many years that the property is automatically reverted back to OCURA?

OCURA was never involved... But they absolutely should have been.

The Oklahoman (sorry to keep going on about this, but they are a massive part of the problem) actually said 'they didn't have the money' to take it on, yet they did (at the time they had more in cash equivalents than OG&E paid) and of course they always seem to find millions when something is a priority.

So, we get this completely fake process with lies and deception all around, but the big news is a glossy rendering of a freaking basketball court. (Never mind there is already a court one block to the south).


And what an amazing coincidence that there was another complete ruse about the historic Hotel Black and bus station, purposely defelcting who is truly behind the demolition of an entire historic block, etc. At least something was built there but it also includes two monolithic parking garages, making 5 in a very small area in the heart of the CBD.


Another recent, similar push-through with the help of the Oklahoman was the scandal involving the SF Garage and the Karchmer property sale. BancFirst was put forth as some sort of sole savior where there were multiple qualified potential buyers bidding for that property. There were lots of ways to see that building renovated without being held hostage by one company and then completely rolling over.

And lets not forget, it wasn't that long ago that SandRidge completely demolished two historic buildings and made some vague promise about later filling in the blank spots for their expansion... Complete with a letter of support from Larry Nichols who runs OCURA, the Alliance (basically was behind its formation) and the convention center + more. Now, SandRidge barely occupies a third of the tower, and we have tons of empty green space directly across from another park that just had to be fixed due to their insistence that it be reworked.


This is exactly the type of crap that went on back in the 60's and 70's, the names have just changed.

They are trying to say it will be an extension of Myriad Gardens. We don't need another park. OG&E just simply made a big mistake. We need more mixed-use developments that will bring permanent bodies that will interact with the downtown area.

How does one go from a 4 tower grand development to a basketball court, wow.

Disappointment for a corporation that planned 4 towers on primed DT real estate development to end up with '0.' Hope they can get something done within the next five years. Their current headquarters doesn't make the grade.

Disappointment for a corporation that planned 4 towers on primed DT real estate development to end up with '0.' Hope they can get something done within the next five years. Their current headquarters doesn't make the grade.

What grade? The architecture grade? They are out to make money, not pretty buildings. It's a joke this situation occurred, but they don't care what the building looks like.

OCURA was never involved... But they absolutely should have been.

The Oklahoman (sorry to keep going on about this, but they are a massive part of the problem) actually said 'they didn't have the money' to take it on, yet they did (at the time they had more in cash equivalents than OG&E paid) and of course they always seem to find millions when something is a priority.

So, we get this completely fake process with lies and deception all around, but the big news is a glossy rendering of a freaking basketball court. (Never mind there is already a court one block to the south).


And what an amazing coincidence that there was another complete ruse about the historic Hotel Black and bus station, purposely defelcting who is truly behind the demolition of an entire historic block, etc. At least something was built there but it also includes two monolithic parking garages, making 5 in a very small area in the heart of the CBD.


Another recent, similar push-through with the help of the Oklahoman was the scandal involving the SF Garage and the Karchmer property sale. BancFirst was put forth as some sort of sole savior where there were multiple qualified potential buyers bidding for that property. There were lots of ways to see that building renovated without being held hostage by one company and then completely rolling over.

And lets not forget, it wasn't that long ago that SandRidge completely demolished two historic buildings and made some vague promise about later filling in the blank spots for their expansion... Complete with a letter of support from Larry Nichols who runs OCURA, the Alliance (basically was behind its formation) and the convention center + more. Now, SandRidge barely occupies a third of the tower, and we have tons of empty green space directly across from another park that just had to be fixed due to their insistence that it be reworked.


This is exactly the type of crap that went on back in the 60's and 70's, the names have just changed.

Seems like this would be a perfect cover story for the Gazette.

Reminder that the new owners were all hell-bent to tear down Stage Center and here we are years later and not only is there nothing but a fenced-off grass field, but now it seems like they have given up all prospects of building anything there at all... At least in the foreseeable future. And this with oil at a strong price and the local economy raging.

If the recreation space was so important (which we know it isn't because they wouldn't even let people walk on the property for well over 2 years) a hoops court could have been placed on the site without touching any part of the structure.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oge092318.jpg

Hopefully the OG&E vision ends up happening. Especially now with the core to shore trucking along faster than ever. This lot, the Bob Howard lot between the parks, and the Cox site will redefine the city and the skyline. I’m glad I’ll be a part of it.

Are you the Michael Sager from Tulsa?

Nope. Sager is my first name and Michael is my middle name. Long story short, I’m a 19 year old from Conyers, Georgia that fell in love with OKC and decided to move there.

Who owns the land south of the Stage Center site? I know Milhaus proposed a 20 story mixed-used tower 4 years ago. This site is prime also, don't tell me OG&E owns that to.

Who owns the land south of the Stage Center site? I know Milhaus proposed a 20 story mixed-used tower 4 years ago. This site is prime also, don't tell me OG&E owns that to.

The city owns that property still.

I’m kinda surprised you guys are shocked nothing is going in, I thought we figured that out like 3 years ago.

The basketball courts and soccer field is better than what is currently there. So baby steps I guess

Seems like this would be a perfect cover story for the Gazette.

I keep thinking this with a lot of Pete’s posts now. ;)

I’m kinda surprised you guys are shocked nothing is going in, I thought we figured that out like 3 years ago.

The basketball courts and soccer field is better than what is currently there. So baby steps I guess

OG&E has never so overtly said any development is completely off.

And this latest announcement basically says they don't plan to sell either.


It's not so much that this is anything new, it's more the brazenness of it all, demonstrating in remarkable fashion how the power brokers in this town (and OG&E and Pete Delaney are definitely that) don't have the slightest concern regarding accountability.

And why should they when they have the largest media company in the state to run PR for them?

Who owns the land south of the Stage Center site? I know Milhaus proposed a 20 story mixed-used tower 4 years ago. This site is prime also, don't tell me OG&E owns that to.

People were enamored by Clayco's much more ambitious renderings for that lot so it was awarded to them. In hindsight, if Milhaus would have been awarded that there'd be a 20 story residential tower there now.

People were enamored by Clayco's much more ambitious renderings for that lot so it was awarded to them. In hindsight, if Milhaus would have been awarded that there'd be a 20 story residential tower there now.
That's what really bums me out. We could have something other than two sports courts/fields.

That's what really bums me out. We could have something other than two sports courts/fields.

Especially on the south lot. From my memory, only a few people on this site were actually supportive of the Milhaus proposal since the Clayco one was so much more ambitious and "sexy". If both lots were developed as Clayco originally intended, they would have had a much larger impact on the skyline than the Milhaus proposal. However, the Milhaus proposal, at the time, would have been financially viable and therefore would have been built. The complex that Clayco had proposed for both lots was always a pie in the sky proposal, not too different from some of the stuff proposed back during urban renewal.

Nope. Sager is my first name and Michael is my middle name. Long story short, I’m a 19 year old from Conyers, Georgia that fell in love with OKC and decided to move there.

Cool, welcome to OKC and OKCTalk! Conyers looks pretty small, interesting move to here, I'll bet...

Being optimistic, the good that can come out of all this is that OCURA will do a new RFP for the lot south of the Stage Center lot. Since they know now OG&E is not pursuing any plans to develop either site. Being that the south lot was to be incorporated on the OG&E master plan.

^

OCURA will merely wait until OG&E is ready before they do an RFP.

But I thought the latest proposal for the TIF, OG&E had scrapped the south lot?

But I thought the latest proposal for the TIF, OG&E had scrapped the south lot?

I still think the city will hold it for them. The Myriad Gardens Foundation occupies a building there along with a few arts-related tenants.

This is just another sad story in the long history of OKC loving to tear down iconic buildings in favor of desolate wasteland. I'll never understand it.

Hey look, NewsOK wrote a story about us losing Stage Center.

https://newsok.com/article/5609482/ghosts-of-historic-buildings-reminder-of-unmet-promises?utm_source=NewsOK.com&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=NIC-Facebook

Renderings! Or I dont believe it!

Renderings! Or I dont believe it!

Well we did get renderings of a basketball court...

Here is the reality of what is going on this site, likely for a very long time.

In the first drawing is a temporary construction drive (#2) and a concrete washout (#1).

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/ogecourts1.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/ogecourts2.jpg

Perhaps this thread should be renamed Four Towers Sport Complex. SMH

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Honestly, how this entire site has been handled is despicable. This is so woefully inadequate it isn't even funny. If you want to put in a bunch of courts for various sports, please do. This entire concept and design is like putting a band aid on the stump of someones decapitated limb. How is any of this better than the stage center, how does any of this fill the space better than the stage center. Former and past members of the city council should be ashamed of themselves. It takes a genuine lack of integrity and commitment to something to let this bull**** be an acceptable outcome from this entire process.

When it got torn down I was not disappointed, other than the fact that something wasn't able to be worked out for a viable business/museum/whatever to go in there and save the site. But from everything I read, in it's current state at the time it was a drain on the city to have to keep it secure against transients, and there were constant flooding issues. There were attempts made to turn it into something else (like a children's museum) but nothing could be worked out and no one stepped up to get it done.

HOWEVER, I realize now that a lot of how I felt was based on information taken in from sources I now take with a bigger grain of salt. So I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I TOTALLY agree that everything since the building was torn down has been an absolute bungle, and have come to believe that choosing OG&E was not 'the only option' here. Can anyone shed more light on the situation the building was in towards the end? Could it have realistically been turned into a viable property that was supporting itself, or mostly supporting itself, and not just kept on as an empty shell because of it's architectural significance?

^

Of course it could have been saved. We have saved buildings in far, far worse shape.

And when the powers that be are properly motivated, there is always tens of millions of public funds that can be rounded up and all types of grants and TIF's and revenue bonds and loans and selling off other city assets and everything else.

The difference here is that people like Pete Delaney (head of OG&E) wanted that property, and he's a very powerful person. And none of the usual cast of rich and powerful made any effort to save it, just like with the bus station and Hotel Black and the India Temple Building.

The simple truth is that what those people decide is what gets done in this town. It would be less worrisome if they were actually using their own money to drive their desired outcomes rather than tax dollars and money from publicly-traded corporations.


To illustrate how all this works in subtle but profound ways, some will remember that for a while OKCTalk had a webcam set up in the old Hotel Black building so we could broadcast the demolition of the old Stage Center in real time.

Before long, a building manager (through the ostensible but almost certain proxy owner, Nick Preftakes) to demand the camera be taken down.

Even though the tenant who was hosting for us had every right to have that webcam, they also weren't going to go to the mat with their landlord over something that was already a favor to OKCTalk. It was promptly shut down.

At the time and even more so now, it was obvious to me that the real owner of Hotel Black did not want those images causing problems for the real owner of the Stage Center. And that's the way things still work in OKC.

Thanks Pete, I appreciate your thoughts and observations

^

Of course it could have been saved. We have saved buildings in far, far worse shape.

And when the powers that be are properly motivated, there is always tens of millions of public funds that can be rounded up and all types of grants and TIF's and revenue bonds and loans and selling off other city assets and everything else.

The difference here is that people like Pete Delaney (head of OG&E) wanted that property, and he's a very powerful person. And none of the usual cast of rich and powerful made any effort to save it, just like with the bus station and Hotel Black and the India Temple Building.

The simple truth is that what those people decide is what gets done in this town. It would be less worrisome if they were actually using their own money to drive their desired outcomes rather than tax dollars and money from publicly-traded corporations.


To illustrate how all this works in subtle but profound ways, some will remember that for a while OKCTalk had a webcam set up in the old Hotel Black building so we could broadcast the demolition of the old Stage Center in real time.

Before long, a building manager (through the ostensible but almost certain proxy owner, Nick Preftakes) to demand the camera be taken down.

Even though the tenant who was hosting for us had every right to have that webcam, they also weren't going to go to the mat with their landlord over something that was already a favor to OKCTalk. It was promptly shut down.

At the time and even more so now, it was obvious to me that the real owner of Hotel Black did not want those images causing problems for the real owner of the Stage Center. And that's the way things still work in OKC.

It really sucks that the BOK building wasn’t just built on the stage center lot. Seems like that would’ve been an easy solution to all of this.

It really sucks that the BOK building wasn’t just built on the stage center lot. Seems like that would’ve been an easy solution to all of this.

Especially since if my memory serves me correctly, OG&E/Clayco/Rainey Williams tabled their plans before the Preftakes block was even demolished.

It really sucks that the BOK building wasn’t just built on the stage center lot. Seems like that would’ve been an easy solution to all of this.
Beat me to it, but I was just about to post the same thing. And we would have had a RePUBlic downtown!

Is there a thread or good source on the history of these two sites, with pictures, before demo and new construction?

Monument sign to go up on the corner of Hudson and Sheridan:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oge110918.jpg

Worth it.

Omg this is so amazing.... (said no one ever).

and people were concerned this would just sit empty without anything jutting up into the sky... this will significantly improve our skyline, for ants....

That is a funny looking office building.

They should be forced to put that property back on the market for exactly what they paid for it. Feels like a scam to me.

needs to be taller

Just may be a sign of something to come: 'Ain't nothing jumping but the peas in the pot; they wouldn't be jumping if the water wasn't hot.'

whatever it is better be "world class"

15009

OG&E putting up something World Class? If they could get just something up.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/4ze18a/picture187087638/alternates/FREE_1140/620%20South%20Tryon%20PUBLICATION%20IMAGE%2002

Economy looks bright, the time may be ripe for OG&E to get a new tower of its own on the former Stage Center site. Man it would be great if they could get a nice 30+ story tower constructed; it would be a game-changer for the OKC skyline.

They will prob end up selling that land for a huge profit.

Ha-Ha! This building is widely hated on Charlotte forums. We haven’t built anything, in a quarter century, to compare with Devon.

Talking about the building pictured.

Dale, in all fairness most cities haven't. :)

But you guys have a very nice skyline in Charlotte, indeed!!

nice tombstone for this project

It's a total crock that nothing is there, but let's face one reality point here guys. The market for Class A in downtown is at the point where if OG&E had opened a new building, we'd have beyond a surplus in leasable space. We really already have that right now with the BOK tower. Not to mention that the space they vacated is open at whatever class it is. If OG&E were to construct something just as large as they are in now, then we would almost double the A vacancy, and that really isn't a good thing. We've got work cut out for us to get more businesses downtown without them just leaving vast vacancies in other parts of town.

I'd really like to see OKC push to chill out any more large scale construction up on Memorial and incentivize that to downtown. We've seen the brakes put on anything big on NW Xway for decades, which is good too.

People aren’t angry that they didn’t build anything. People are angry that they tore stuff down when nothing to replace it had even been approved.

Would it be hard to tie demolition permits to new building permits?

Ha-Ha! This building is widely hated on Charlotte forums. We haven’t built anything, in a quarter century, to compare with Devon.

Talking about the building pictured.

Honestly, why? I don't get it. I think the tower is really nice looking! Granted, from this view it looks like the pedestal needs more street-level pedestrian interaction, but I personally like the building and would love to see something like that here in OKC.

Should just put a statue of Rainey Williams with his hand on his chin while he looks up to the sky, and next to it a statue of Lackmeyer waving a newspaper in the air saying “I guess it was me that didn’t know Rainey Williams”

Monument sign to go up on the corner of Hudson and Sheridan:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oge110918.jpg

Is this the proverbial "Mystery Tower"?