But it is one in a long history of failed developments. It's that thing about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I think if downtown wasn't full of scars caused by this exact same thing, it would be different. But I guess it does make sense that people who didn't care about the history of our architecture wouldn't care about the history of our mistakes too.

Historically, yes, a long list of failed developments, but recently what can you add to that list other than the stage center? How many buildings have been cleared with the promise of another development and then nothing built?

Woe is me, let's go jump off a bridge. Jesus.

Relax man. No one is jumping. But you're being very Pollyannaish if you think everything is just peachy in OK right now.

So, back to sky is falling, then? K.

Right!? I mean, this is the only time this has ever happened in OKC so there's no reason to be concerned about the city's processes.

I guess concerned citizens that would like to see some of OKC's history preserved should consider the current debacle in isolation and ignore the fact it's a repeated failure of city leadership. Thanks David.

So, back to sky is falling, then? K.

Not at all. It's just a pragmatic look at the situation in the context of the city's history of demolition for unfunded projects. We could just ignore it and not change anything, but that's exactly why this happened, right? I'm not sure why it bothers you that some are just trying to get a positive change as a result of the situation. It would never have affected any of the projects that have been built, just the ones like this one where they didn't even have the means to complete the project when the permits were given.

So, it's not as much "sky is falling", as it is trying to avoid the pitfalls of a Pollyanna approach.

Relax man. No one is jumping. But you're being very Pollyannaish if you think everything is just peachy in OK right now.

Not peachy. Just not near as comically dire as half the people here are making it out to be. I think you and some others here are being far, far too pessimistic.

At any rate, taking a "sky is falling" approach, complaining about the situation on a message board and actually doing something constructive are two completely different things. There is very little constructive thought being provided here, though some, like BDP, are actually taking a level headed approach to their annoyance with the situation.

I just think, just like I always thought, that it sucks that people allowed the destruction of the Stage Center, for what was not a sure thing at the time, and has been proven to not have been a sure thing. If nothing else, the Stage Center was a world class piece of public art. We've replaced it with a fenced in mud puddle. Now I'm waiting for some slapdash asphalt and a "Pay to Park" sign next. I have no idea if things are as bad as some people say or as hopeful as others think. I think we were stupid to listen to a young pup with no experience (or money) behind him. We do not seem to learn from our mistakes either.

The problem is that any time anything is demolished, there is never any guarantee after that.

Even if you have building permits and financing lined up, projects come off the rails for all sorts of reasons.

So, I think it's a waste of energy to think in terms of trading something for something else. What we are always doing is determining if something is worth saving or not regardless of what may or may not replace it.

Are some of you guys not reading the same thread full of doomsaying that I am? Sure, not all of you are taking the approach that I am criticizing (aka, the "move to Houston" idea), but enough have been that it is deeply annoying. For example, the comment immediately before mine:


BDP is completely right. It isn't about just this one development. It's about a broken process that has lead to gaping holes in downtown OKC over the decades and nearly killed downtown in the 1960s through the 1980s. Stage Center was a polarizing development and not everybody liked it, but this could easily happen to a beloved architectural treasure. It has countless times before and until policies are put into place to prevent it, there is a risk of it happening again. Personally, I think OKC is very lucky that BOK Park Plaza is moving forward. That could have very easily been another similar story that would have sparked far more outrage given what was lost.

We're lucky that BOK Park Plaza is moving forward? It is a completely different development and a completely different scenario, luck had nothing to do with it.

The problem is that any time anything is demolished, there is never any guarantee after that.

Even if you have building permits and financing lined up, projects come off the rails for all sorts of reasons.


Correct, but it could minimize the risk of this happening. Had such a policy been in place, requiring a building permit tied to demolition, Stage Center would still be standing.

There always will be the one-off chance that financing could fall through after demolition and a building permit has been issued. It happens in cities all across the country. But its a lot more rare that a deal makes it that far and then collapses.

Whether or not something is worth saving, in this city it all depends on whether or not the big boys with the money think its worth saving. If Larry Nichols wants something gone, it will be gone.

Correct, but it could minimize the risk of this happening. Had such a policy been in place, requiring a building permit tied to demolition, Stage Center would still be standing.

They could have easily obtained a building permit if that had been a condition... They had already received design approval and spent a ton of money on architects and engineers.


It's a silly idea that needs to be dropped. It's not going to happen and wouldn't make a difference if it did.

So I guess its time to simply write this off as an "oops!" and cross fingers hoping the same thing doesn't happen again in a few years when somebody with money comes in with big promises, wanting to tear down something that will likely be more beloved and less polarizing than Stage Center.

Many of the buildings that were demolished would have eventually met that fate anyway. It's probably a lot less expensive to have the parcels cleared and available for development than to wait on something down the road.

Many of the buildings that were demolished would have eventually met that fate anyway.

You mean like the Skirvin, Marion, Ambassador Hotel, Fred Jones Assembly, Tower Theatre, Colcord, soon to be First National Center, etc, etc? As long as something is still standing, no matter how dire the situation seems, there is always a chance for renovation and restoration.

I thought I would post this here as it pertains. Look at what was destroyed to build the Stage Center.

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/12552535_960132620719710_1923822297487931256_n.jpg ?oh=c4831a3fa54397a38f35cbe198120fe2&oe=56FF6A6B

You mean like the Skirvin, Marion, Ambassador Hotel, Fred Jones Assembly, Tower Theatre, Colcord, soon to be First National Center, etc, etc? As long as something is still standing, no matter how dire the situation seems, there is always a chance for renovation and restoration.

Not with the Stage Center, there wasn't. And it's gone.

Okay, I'm going to make a respectful suggestion on this thread - one I will promise to abide myself (no clean hands here) - let's *NOT* turn this thread into ten pages of remorse (or, in my case, rejoicing) about the loss of the Stage Center. It's gone, bad or good, loved or hated, useful or not, it's gone, gone forever, and right now the constructive discussion has to focus on what can happen with the properties going forward. If folks want to lament, celebrate, or argue the SC all over again, that's fine, but let's do it in a different thread.

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.


Your. Best. Post. Ever.

I agree completely. That's why in my post I said that these are only symptoms of problems, not a problem in and of itself. You can treat symptoms even when you might not be able to cure the disease. I also said the good 'ole boy network 4.0 for a reason. I've seen them come and go. Some of it is passed down, but it's a club of elitism and expectations that feel entitled every bit as much as some people think today's young people are. Granted, we can't get our Mummer's/Stage Center back, but we can hold these people accountable and use it as a cautionary tale. Again.

PluPan, I've been where you are - many times. I ended up back here for a reason. It's a neat little city. I understand your frustrations and I would probably, in all honesty, do what you are wanting to do at your age. You should see and do what you can. Things change fast, but you can never get these relatively roots-free years back once it's time you want to settle down. That may be somewhere else, or you may find you really do like it better here than you think today. But, damn, be careful; I worry about you in a lot of ways. Just from your posts. I mean that in a parental kind of way, which of course I am not, but you know what I mean. Whatever you choose now - good luck to you.

Sorry about my negative post. I am not done with hoping this city gets better... I was just super disappointed when I typed that. I believe OKC is changing and for the better, it is just disappointing to see how things are handled here sometimes.

Quite honestly, I'm not so much as disappointed that this happen as I am on how this thing was handled. I think these buildings belong on NW Expressway or Broadway Ext. I didn't think they were the best fit in regards to how urbanism should be in our downtown and I ultimately believe we will get something better on this site.

I also am excited because I really love that little castle looking tower on the south end of the Stage Center lot and think that could make a really cool housing thing for 4-5 units.

This thing coupled with the Ford Center and ultimately the Cox Convention site will become and awesome part of downtown.

Okay, I'm going to make a respectful suggestion on this thread - one I will promise to abide myself (no clean hands here) - let's *NOT* turn this thread into ten pages of remorse (or, in my case, rejoicing) about the loss of the Stage Center. It's gone, bad or good, loved or hated, useful or not, it's gone, gone forever, and right now the constructive discussion has to focus on what can happen with the properties going forward. If folks want to lament, celebrate, or argue the SC all over again, that's fine, but let's do it in a different thread.

I think that's fine, but I don't think any constructive or destructive discussion here will have a twit worth of influence on what ultimately happens. I did everything I knew to do to keep the Stage Center from being demolished and I failed. I have no earthly idea what I could do to make sure that piece of property becomes something that doesn't continue my regret since I do not have the money to buy it and develop it. Forums are a place to applaud or complain. It's quite clear after what Sandridge did and what Rainey Williams did that we, and very few other people, have any power to effect change short of becoming developers or becoming rich and powerful enough to put pressure on the city that they cannot ignore.

Empty Stage Center > Lake Lackmeyer

Empty Stage Center > Lake Lackmeyer

I think it's time to officially rename it Lake Rainey Williams.

Truthfully, we need public accountability. That means calling people out and making powerful, wealthy people uncomfortable.

Rainey Willaims needs someone to stick a camera in his face and say "why'd you eff this up, and don't give me that 'falling oil prices' excuse. Why did you tear down Stage Center if you knew you were going to need XYZ dollars of public financing?" Somebody needs to be at his house, today, asking where his 'world class' development is. Asking if he ever had any real plan to see this through. Asking if he was just a front man for OG&E so they could tear down Stage Center without public scrutiny. He needs to be ambushed at his front door by a TV camera crew, and when it's over he needs to be pissed. We need someone to ask OG&E execs those questions too.

We need people who have a public voice, who are willing to make people mad.

I honestly could not agree more! In general, the media in this city is way too soft on things like this.

Agreed, hoya. There needs to be serious accountability.

Agreed. I was hoping it would start with Steve but he seems more interested in blaming the price of oil. Those that follow him on twitter will know this but a road construction project up on the north side that was seriously over its completed time he complained about everyday for months. He called for accountability from the contractor and the city and did it everyday and frankly I wish he would put that much effort into calling out Rainey Williams and OG&E. When Villa Terresa was about to sell he wrote multiple articles and threatened people on twitter to release more information about the group buying it and their plans to tear it all down. Again, I wish he would put that much effort into holding these people accountable for their blatant lies. Just as Preftakes promised he wouldn't tear down the bus station to Steve and Steve defended him till the very end when demolition permits were filed. He will befriend anyone to get a story and a future scoop. His article today was all OG&E's side of the story of they are really doing a service for the city by waiting to build this right instead of asking the hard questions of why if this was fully funded to begin with did it not get built with or without TIF. I don't want this to be taken as a bashing of Steve because I feel he does write great stories and provides a great service of loving OKC and writing about downtown but where is his passion to call out people here that he does on all sorts of other projects. And with the Oklahoman being own by Phillip Anschutz, a Energy tycoon, I can't help but wonder if this "everything is the price of oil's fault" rhetoric is somehow related to his ownership.

Truthfully, we need public accountability. That means calling people out and making powerful, wealthy people uncomfortable.

Rainey Willaims needs someone to stick a camera in his face and say "why'd you eff this up, and don't give me that 'falling oil prices' excuse. Why did you tear down Stage Center if you knew you were going to need XYZ dollars of public financing?" Somebody needs to be at his house, today, asking where his 'world class' development is. Asking if he ever had any real plan to see this through. Asking if he was just a front man for OG&E so they could tear down Stage Center without public scrutiny. He needs to be ambushed at his front door by a TV camera crew, and when it's over he needs to be pissed. We need someone to ask OG&E execs those questions too.

We need people who have a public voice, who are willing to make people mad.

"Because it was my land, and I can do what I want with it. I applied and received all demolition permits legally. Sorry the towers didn't get built. I couldn't make the money I wanted to make off the towers and I'm for damn sure not going to lose money to make people happy, that's what government is for. I don't owe the taxpayers, you or anyone else jack. Once again it was my land, and the city let me tear down SC so either take it up with them or outbid me and buy it for yourself next time."

That's about the answer you'd receive. Welcome to America and these things called private property rights.

So in this whole debacle, who should we write to/email/call in order to express our disgust at how this has all played out and how they were part of the scam/fiasco/clusterf*** and deserve to be publicly flogged while standing in Lake Rainey Williams during the height of mosquito season? DDRC, City Council, Mayor, Williams, OG&E, all of the above...?

"Because it was my land, and I can do what I want with it. I applied and received all demolition permits legally. Sorry the towers didn't get built. I couldn't make the money I wanted to make off the towers and I'm for damn sure not going to lose money to make people happy, that's what government is for. I don't owe the taxpayers, you or anyone else jack. Once again it was my land, and the city let me tear down SC so either take it up with them or outbid me and buy it for yourself next time."

That's about the answer you'd receive. Welcome to America and these things called private property rights.

I don't believe in absolute property rights. Most people don't. The law doesn't support the idea either. Rainey Williams lied to buy the land, he lied to the people of this city, and he did it so that a public utility could avoid bad press.

Welcome to America and freedom of the press.

"Because it was my land, and I can do what I want with it. I applied and received all demolition permits legally. Sorry the towers didn't get built. I couldn't make the money I wanted to make off the towers and I'm for damn sure not going to lose money to make people happy, that's what government is for. I don't owe the taxpayers, you or anyone else jack. Once again it was my land, and the city let me tear down SC so either take it up with them or outbid me and buy it for yourself next time."

That's about the answer you'd receive. Welcome to America and these things called private property rights.

Yeah, that's pretty solidly BS. There's a reason you have to get building permits and other stuff like that, you don't actually have the right to do whatever you want to your land. Sure, they got approval to tear down the Stage Center, but that also means they had to get approval. Property rights wouldn't mean jack if the city had said no.

Yeah, that's pretty solidly BS. There's a reason you have to get building permits and other stuff like that, you don't actually have the right to do whatever you want to your land. Sure, they got approval to tear down the Stage Center, but that also means they had to get approval. Property rights wouldn't mean jack if the city had said no.
He has the right to apply for the permit. He got the permit. He tore down SC. His plan for towers fell through.

I don't believe in absolute property rights. Most people don't. The law doesn't support the idea either. Rainey Williams lied to buy the land, he lied to the people of this city, and he did it so that a public utility could avoid bad press.

Welcome to America and freedom of the press.

Well he bought the land and was given the go ahead to tear down SC and leave the lot empty. That's the city's fault not his. And sure the press can beat down his door and ask tough questions but he doesn't have to answer any of them if he doesn't want too, which he isn't going to. Rainey did nothing illegal, I don't even think he did anything unethical. He tried to put a project together and it failed.

This is the city's fault pure and simple. They allowed SC to get torn down without a succession plan in place. Would be as simple as saying here's your demo permit, can't start tearing it down until the tower deal is done and cranes are on the way.

Man, this thread....just wow.

Instead of being an indictment on a shady developer and a shaky process at the municipal level (all fair criticisms) it becomes a rant against the entire city.

I just want to express my excitement for The First National Center.

While this fiasco reminds me of some sort of sordid cross between a episode of The Simpsons, South Park, and Parks and Recreation, it is NOT the end of the world.

Its a modern Greek urban tragedy undoubtedly. The absurdity of a certain City official and a heralded local reporter carrying the corporate boosterism pails of water isn't lost on me.

However, isn't it possible that this abject failure may buoy better development proposals for the site 3 - 5 years out and actually preserve, GASP, a essential core block for higher and better use beyond anything we have seen yet?

I think our City has it's best days ahead.

However, isn't it possible that this abject failure may buoy better development proposals for the site 3 - 5 years out and actually preserve, GASP, a essential core block for higher and better use beyond anything we have seen yet?

I think our City has it's best days ahead.

I would gladly settle for a Steelyard type development on that site and believe it would provide more vitality than this project would have, even if it doesn't alter the skyline.

This is the city's fault pure and simple. They allowed SC to get torn down without a succession plan in place. Would be as simple as saying here's your demo permit, can't start tearing it down until the tower deal is done and cranes are on the way.

Which is precisely what most people at the hearings were ultimately asking for. Even Preservation Oklahoma, once the group realized Rainey was going to get what he wanted, was asking publicly that demolition at least be delayed until construction was imminent. Multiple people brought up this very scenario. One of the board members (can't remember her name), at least gave the appearance of wavering because of concerns that the development might not occur. The Board really should be ashamed they were so easily led. Betsy Brunsteter gets a pass, since she had to recuse herself and could not vote, and my avatar is her drawing.

Can they rescind and offer this land to Milhaus?

I would gladly settle for a Steelyard type development on that site and believe it would provide more vitality than this project would have, even if it doesn't alter the skyline.

Yeah, now we have a clear lot in the middle of downtown right next to the Myriad, and plenty of local developers are building mid-rise housing. If the OG&E towers completely do not happen, if the hiatus turns into a cancelled, I would be more than happy to see a Steelyard style development eventually go up in its place. Kerry might just get his wish for residential overlooking the park.

You don't need highrise towers to more fully activate the streets and park.

So what I was so upset about the other day is a general complaint that I have with my city's planners, OKC city government, our state government, and all the usuals: they're so ****ing hard-headed.

Life will go on, but it's extremely aggravating to see us make the same dumb mistakes we did decades ago and do nothing about it. I would encourage everyone to contact their councilman and suggest changes to the process.

What makes me mad is that I have attended many, many council and planning meetings in my own city in the past and it's a real problem that our government officials just don't want to hear anything from us. The state makes that even more clear to everyone, including the cities.

The only way things will get better is if we collaborate, and I don't always see that kind of mindset from our local governments. In fact I don't often see it. Yeah they'll say they want it, but when you watch their reactions and what actually happens most of the time the message is "get lost." That has to change.

I say, 'Lake Lackmeyer' built by prominent OKC developer Rainey Williams and funded by OGE Energy.

"Hey, he did promise to build something World Class that OKC could be proud of. ..." We should be so greatful!

Empty Stage Center > Lake Lackmeyer

Spartan will continue to tell me I'm an idiot for saying this, but I just don't agree with that. There was and continued to be no future for Stage Center. It's NEVER been a successful business venture and has been on the verge of falling apart financially as long as it's been around. The problem is that it's a collection of a bunch of amateur theater groups, none of which could attract enough money in ticket sales to counter their costs (including the facility use). As crappy as the Freede Little Theater is, at least it has municipal support. The space was AWFUL in terms of how it used the space and was incredibly inefficient. If you were a fan of the architecture, fine. But let's also be realistic in the fact that in terms of practical use, the place sucked...flat out. The lack of shared space for simple things like lobby/backstage/etc areas caused a lot of issues with logistics. On the rare occasion that you'd have more than one event at the place, well good luck with that. Has anyone that throws all these comments actually ever spent any time IN the place??????? My guess is that you haven't and only drove by or maybe walked by it during the arts festival. Even those that performed inside it, do not have any love loss for the place being gone. It's been years (since the flood) since anyone had performed at all in the space anyway. And let's not also forget that the flood was caused (repeatedly over the years) because of the design of the place. When you put together your Tinker Toys and try to build it later, you end up with a failed Jetson's building.

So what do we have right now? We have a lot that's been freed of a damaged structure that had absolutely zero chance of being renovated. We have a project that was doomed before it was started because of the unrealistic expectations of TIF money from a crappy developer. We have a prime space downtown that has been freed up from a big sucking sound with chained up doors and homeless problems. Yeah, we have a block of dirt. Guess what? That block of dirt wont stay dirt. It's not the lot in downtown with the easiest ability to develop. it's going to be where the next thing will go. My bet is that OG&E will still build there, but they'll just have to find a new developer to partner with.

In case there was any doubt in the Oklahoman's complicity in this ruse and how they always, always put the interests of big business (and their main advertisers) ahead of the general public:

Stalled OGE development a reminder of energy prices' impact on Oklahoma | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/stalled-oge-development-a-reminder-of-energy-prices-impact-on-oklahoma/article/5472150)


Stalled OGE development a reminder of energy prices' impact on Oklahoma
By The Oklahoman Editorial Board | January 13, 2016

LAMENTATIONS from preservationists have begun. Their beloved, architecturally unique Stage Center was demolished because …

… Because private developers wanted the site for a four-tower commercial complex, the plans for which are officially on hold. These included a new headquarters building for OGE Energy Corp. On Monday, OGE said it must suspend the plans because market conditions are unfavorable.

It was the latest cautionary signpost on a route to lower expectations in the energy-driven Oklahoma economy. Other metrics include the gaping hole in the state budget, the New York Stock Exchange delisting of SandRidge Energy Inc. and the city of Oklahoma City's declining sales tax revenue.

What irks preservationists, understandably (to a point), is that Stage Center is gone and can't be brought back but the thing that was supposed to replace it seems gone as well. But one development is permanent and the other, we feel sure, is temporary.

Lest we forget, Stage Center, a community theater complex designed by architect John Johansen, was in serious disrepair. Had the OGE development not
materialized, Stage Center might still be standing. But it also would still be falling apart because no one had a plan to save it. Even if they had, the extant economic woes would likely have reduced contributions for any nonprofit endeavor.

Also noteworthy is that the redevelopment plan was thoroughly vetted. OGE and others involved in the plan went through hoops to get it approved before Stage Center was carted away in pieces.

Oil prices slid again Monday, the day the OGE decision was unveiled, and that caused yet another slide in the stock market. Oklahoma's economy thrived by the energy industry and is now suffering because of it.

This is an industry enured to feast and famine. The current downturn has lasted longer and dived deeper than anyone could have predicted a couple of years ago. The price of any commodity — and oil and natural gas are commodities as much as wheat and cotton — is subject to great swings. Decisions are made according to the best information available at the time. This includes decisions to pull back as well as to expand.

When the Stage Center site came into play, oil prices were as high as $100 a barrel, compared with around $30 today. Given such a precipitous drop, it's a wonder the local economy and jobless rate aren't worse or that development in the central city hasn't come to a total standstill.

Instead, this seems to be a bump in the road — albeit a serious one — in the reconstruction of downtown Oklahoma City. However it's worth noting that same day of the OGE announcement came news that First National Center has a new buyer, with plans to convert the building into a mix of apartments and a hotel. And OGE's leaders are determined to have a first-class headquarters building among the structures to replace the entire Stage Center footprint.

The OGE development was already morphing from the original plan, owing to developments not directly related to the oil price slump. A failure to reach agreement on tax increment financing was also complicating the start of construction. The site has been cleared for more than a year; it may remain so for years to come.

The rub for preservationists is that massive downtown demolitions in the past (as part of an ambitious urban renewal plan) didn't always result in promises kept. They can use this argument to fight future redevelopment proposals, but they can't make the case that Stage Center had any future at all.

The site's highest and best use remains within the private sector's domain — perhaps with help from public-sector incentives.

Perhaps the picture in the heading should be replaced with a picture of the lake.

^^^ Ridiculous.

If this was really about oil prices, ClayCo should have had absolutely no problem starting construction when oil was still $100/bbl, without that monumental TIF. Blaming oil prices lets them get by without asking the tough questions to Rainey Williams, City Hall, and whoever else may have been complicit in this.

Of course they don't mention that the entire project was predicated on absurd public assistance which was never realistic.

What killed this project was that the City didn't just fork over 10's of millions of free money.

Pretty hard to justify when almost the exact same project was being built directly across the street and at the same time with zero public assistance.


They also conveniently leave out the fact that Rainey Williams made multiple promises for a "world class development" which they happily printed, their lead business writer constantly defended him and now he is merely (ostensibly) just transferring this land to OG&E, and they never once attempted to interview him when this whole thing started to turn south.

I am looking forward to the OKC Central Chat with Steve Lackmeyer this Friday, if he doesn't call it off, knowing the kind of questions he is going to get.

BTW, absolutely no coincidence that the Oklahoman put these two stories (OG&E and First National) on the same day.

And then, the editorial turns around and cites that happy coincidence as a reason not to be too harsh on the OG&E situation.

His plan for towers fell through.

Actually his plans for public assistance fell through. So this was never a purely "private property" play.

Unless you build a solid cathedral like structure or something comparable to the First National Center, don't expect it to be there forever.

Oklahoma City probably could have saved the old Criterion Theater & Baum Building; along with the old Biltmore, maybe if someone (with deep pockets) was willing to shell out some cash to preserve those iconic structures.

What we did save was our jewel of hotels, the Skirvin (along with its heritage & ghosts). We renovated and upgraded our beautiful Civic Center (Thelma Gaylord Performing Arts Hall) into the gem of its heyday when it was the Municipal Auditorium.


http://www.405magazine.com/September-2012/Pursuits-September-CivicCenter-002.jpg

Stage Center (IIRC) had major repair concerns to make it functional.

It's sad to think, but these buildings are gone--cremated through demolition. All we can do is hope to replace them with a better structure.

Foot soldiers & watchdogs will have to challenge these sub-par developments and demand greater accountability for the better use of those parcels.

OG&E has chose to put its proposed structure on hold, review its options. The whole development idea is somewhat of a gamble with cities that approve the developments. There are no guarantees that developers won't cut corners to achieve their promised outlook results.

Actually his plans for public assistance fell through. So this was never a purely "private property" play.

Which is included in his plan.

Buy SC land.
Demo SC
Get financing with Clayco for towers from city
OGE moves in, leases other towers.

That was always the plan, wasn't a great mystery. Heck the fact he was basically the cover for OGE to get a shiny new office tower while crying poverty and needing rate increases wasn't a secret.

Problem was there was gaps in each step because the city didn't do its job. Should have gone like this
Buy SC land
Demo SC and get financing
Move into new towers.

To a few posters around here, my hats off to you. You saw this one coming from a mile way and urged the city not to allow demo until financing and everything else was done. At least with 499 they demo'ed and the crane arrived like a week later.

Which is included in his plan.

Buy SC land.
Demo SC
Get financing with Clayco for towers from city
OGE moves in, leases other towers

Right. So it never was purely a private venture. Which actually means the city had more leverage than usual, but no one seemed to think to use it.

Which is included in his plan.

Buy SC land.
Demo SC
Get financing with Clayco for towers from city
OGE moves in, leases other towers.

That was always the plan, wasn't a great mystery. Heck the fact he was basically the cover for OGE to get a shiny new office tower while crying poverty and needing rate increases wasn't a secret.

Problem was there was gaps in each step because the city didn't do its job. Should have gone like this
Buy SC land
Demo SC and get financing
Move into new towers.

To a few posters around here, my hats off to you. You saw this one coming from a mile way and urged the city not to allow demo until financing and everything else was done. At least with 499 they demo'ed and the crane arrived like a week later.

Oh, I'm not happy with the city on this either. There's plenty of scorn to go around. Lackmeyer, the Oklahoman, everybody deserves some blame on this.

I had mixed feelings on Stage Center. I didn't love it, but it was kind of neat. But it was way better than just a fenced off pond.

I really liked the idea of Stage Center as a children's museum, and don't understand why more people couldn't get behind that. It only would have taken about $20 million and would have been excellent for the city.

Some people's absolute hatred for the Stage Center has caused them to not see the principle behind this matter. The city dropped the ball by letting Rainey Williams demolish the Stage Center before financing was in place for his project. As gopokes said above, at least with 499, financing was in place before demolition and the crane arrived soon after.

Oh, I'm not happy with the city on this either. There's plenty of scorn to go around. Lackmeyer, the Oklahoman, everybody deserves some blame on this.

I had mixed feelings on Stage Center. I didn't love it, but it was kind of neat. But it was way better than just a fenced off pond.

I had no feelings towards it either way, but I can understand why it was architecturally significant, but not functional. Had they halted demo it would still be standing today collecting dust, but there would still be a chance someone with a bunch of money could sweep in and save it, that chance is now gone.

Just lots of incompetence from the city, which is to be expected of governments. Hopefully they learned, but yeah it's government they don't learn.

In the future though, I'll be on the team that says no more tearing down significant buildings without a concrete plan in place to rebuild them.

^^^

I'm definitely with you on that.

I had no feelings towards it either way, but I can understand why it was architecturally significant, but not functional. Had they halted demo it would still be standing today collecting dust, but there would still be a chance someone with a bunch of money could sweep in and save it, that chance is now gone.

Honestly, I think once the site was in play the type, of groups / foundations that have the resources to have done something with Stage Center would not have wanted to get involved. We have to remember that these charities rely on the business community for a lot of funding and support, so they don't want to ruffle those feathers. I'm not claiming conspiracy or anything, just the normal politics of fund raising in OKC. None of this happens in a vacuum.

Honestly, I think once the site was in play the type, of groups / foundations that have the resources to have done something with Stage Center would not have wanted to get involved. We have to remember that these charities rely on the business community for a lot of funding and support, so they don't want to ruffle those feathers. I'm not claiming conspiracy or anything, just the normal politics of fund raising in OKC. None of this happens in a vacuum.

Then let it continue to sit and collect dust, and if someone came up with a replacement plan that was ready to go, then they can demo it. But letting it collect dust at least left the chance that someone with deep pockets and a creative mind could have found a way to make it viable for something. That chance is gone.

Which is included in his plan.

Buy SC land.
Demo SC
Get financing with Clayco for towers from city
OGE moves in, leases other towers.

That was always the plan, wasn't a great mystery.


You're wrong. He did not say he needed TIF money at project start: Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/3866102)


"Williams also could not say whether he might seek tax increment financing or other public funding to assist in the development of the tower or an adjoining parking garage."


Heck the fact he was basically the cover for OGE to get a shiny new office tower while crying poverty and needing rate increases wasn't a secret.


Again, you're wrong. He stated he was buyer/developer for the property only: OKC Central Chat transcript, July 26, 2013 | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/3866278)


Gary T 10:03 a.m. Now, a couple of Mystery Tower questions: 1) Since Rainey Williams (the person who bought Stage Center) is also a Director of OGE Enogex GP, LLC, is it safe to say the anchor tenant discussed in the article will either be OGE or the Enogex/Centerpoint entity?

Steve Lackmeyer 10:07 a.m. Thanks Gary. No, it's not safe to assume the tower anchor will be associated with OG&E, Enogex or Centerpoint. It's possible. But as I've said before, there are a lot of missing pieces. Consider what I've told you before; in March a completely different developer was on the verge of getting this contract for the Stage Center property. It was not a reflection on that developer that the deal fell through. He had other tenants lined up, and it is still quite possible he may build a tower elsewhere downtown. In the meantime, let my article sink in - this tower is being built by Rainey Williams, not OG&E, not Enogex, not Centerpoint. Could any mix of these three end up as tenants? Maybe. But don't make any assumptions. As for those who question whether Rainey Williams is just a front, and question his capacity for doing this development, well, you don't know Rainey Williams.

Only in November 2014, 17 months after the development was announced, five months after Stage Center demo, was the record-setting TIF request was made public: Clayco gets chosen for Oklahoma City's Stage Center block, seeks unprecedented tax financing assistance | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5369964)


Clayco’s plans include a $200 million, 25-story office tower at the northeast corner of Hudson and Sheridan and a $67.5 million, 26-story apartment tower at the corner of Sheridan and Walker. Both buildings are to be built on the north half of the block that was home to Stage Center and that Rainey Williams Jr. bought last year from the Oklahoma City Community Foundation.

The south half of the block is controlled by the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority. Though Clayco was designated developer on Monday by Urban Renewal, it still must negotiate a request to create a new, 25-year tax increment finance district that would provide $60.8 million in TIF for the proposed 25-story office tower, which they forecast to cost $216 million. The company is asking for another $19.7 million for the planned $70 million, 26-story 253-unit apartment tower.

Cathy O’Connor said Clayco is asking for another $62.1 million in tax increment financing for the north half of the block. All together, the proposed new tax increment district would match Project 180, the rebuilding of streets and public spaces launched in 2009 when a similar new district was created at the request of Devon Energy as it prepared to build its new headquarters.

In that project, however, all money went toward downtown improvement and economic development, and not toward the construction of Devon Energy Center. The Clayco proposal requests that most of the tax increment created by the development go back toward its construction.

“It’s well beyond what Oklahoma City typically allocates to projects,” O’Connor said in recommending Clayco to the Urban Renewal board. “Even if Clayco is designated, we have a lot of work to do in negotiating the project terms.”

See if you can post without insulting people then maybe you won't get 'trolled'...


I am sorry to see you say that, as if that's a unique thing that I do. I thought you were a little above that.


Yet that's exactly what's happening. The only comments from government in Steve's article were positive-spin comments from Jim Couch. The city isn't holding developers accountable, and journalists aren't holding the city accountable... So I guess we'll just write this off as an 'oops,' and do it again in a few years?

Depends. Anyone got a good landmark that they want gone? Any historic buildings that may have looked at you the wrong way?

You're wrong. He did not say he needed TIF money at project start: Downtown Oklahoma City to get new tower | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/3866102)





Again, you're wrong. He stated he was buyer/developer for the property only: OKC Central Chat transcript, July 26, 2013 | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/3866278)



Only in November 2014, 17 months after the development was announced, five months after Stage Center demo, was the record-setting TIF request was made public: Clayco gets chosen for Oklahoma City's Stage Center block, seeks unprecedented tax financing assistance | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5369964)

Reading between the lines, or this board, it was pretty obvious what was going on.

I don't fault Rainey. This is on the city.

They could have easily obtained a building permit if that had been a condition... They had already received design approval and spent a ton of money on architects and engineers.


It's a silly idea that needs to be dropped. It's not going to happen and wouldn't make a difference if it did.

It has in other cities. Like Cleveland. Like Chicago I think. And no, please don't suggest that I just stay there because you don't want to hear it.


Many of the buildings that were demolished would have eventually met that fate anyway. It's probably a lot less expensive to have the parcels cleared and available for development than to wait on something down the road.

Why have a vision, if your aiming pretty low? There's a difference between okay and world-class. You're wrong as it relates to OKC's history, where we tore down a lot of world-class things.. the Criterion.. five or six other theaters.. a huge core of department stores (Magnificent Mile anyone?).. a ton of historic hotels that eclipsed the Skirvin's grandeur, like the Biltmore. Cincy has a department store called the Shillito that has won accolades as one of the coolest adaptive reuses on the planet. In Cleveland, an old theater is being repurposed into an open-air market, and another might become a rock climbing gym. These are all world-class things. We tore down our world-class opportunities for.. the Century Center parking garage.. the Cox Convention Center (no, not world-class, in case you were wondering) and more parking garages.


Okay, I'm going to make a respectful suggestion on this thread - one I will promise to abide myself (no clean hands here) - let's *NOT* turn this thread into ten pages of remorse (or, in my case, rejoicing) about the loss of the Stage Center. It's gone, bad or good, loved or hated, useful or not, it's gone, gone forever, and right now the constructive discussion has to focus on what can happen with the properties going forward. If folks want to lament, celebrate, or argue the SC all over again, that's fine, but let's do it in a different thread.

We need accountability. We have a long arc of history in OKC; we aren't the young community we sometimes claim to be. We have a lot of lessons to learn from, and now is as good a time as ever to open those archives. We need to stop doing this awful thing we keep doing.


Truthfully, we need public accountability. That means calling people out and making powerful, wealthy people uncomfortable.

Rainey Willaims needs someone to stick a camera in his face and say "why'd you eff this up, and don't give me that 'falling oil prices' excuse. Why did you tear down Stage Center if you knew you were going to need XYZ dollars of public financing?" Somebody needs to be at his house, today, asking where his 'world class' development is. Asking if he ever had any real plan to see this through. Asking if he was just a front man for OG&E so they could tear down Stage Center without public scrutiny. He needs to be ambushed at his front door by a TV camera crew, and when it's over he needs to be pissed. We need someone to ask OG&E execs those questions too.

We need people who have a public voice, who are willing to make people mad.

We need public accountability, too. The thing is that, speaking in terms of the public sector's role, downtown needs to be planned for stability. We need plans and developments to respond to MAPS investments, not oil prices. I tend to think that the MAPS projects create more than enough value to keep redeveloping downtown. That needs to be our sole focus, and not this oil thing, which has really overshadowed MAPS3. We let the oil people control the agenda for MAPS3. We let them (SandRidge) tear down some of our best old buildings that would have injected housing more directly into the MAPS footprint than any of our big "Dallas Donut" projects (LEVEL, Edge, 21C apts, Steelyard, Metropolitan, etc). We let the oil thing take precedence over our interest in maximizing and protecting the MAPS investment. That's the problem here. Yet we love giving MAPS the credit because it's a better "story."

It has in other cities. Like Cleveland. Like Chicago I think. And no, please don't suggest that I just stay there because you don't want to hear it.

Please provide specific examples of the details of this stipulation in other cities and how it has worked.

I asked about this before and nobody was able to provide answers.


If there are good, successful examples to follow, then by all means we should pursue something similar.

Discussion at yesterday's (1/12/16) city council meeting of the OG&E ruse, the deprivation of the council's ability to make policy decision as to whether TIF funds should go to a public utility company whose regulation by the corporation commission ensures a profit, a very expensive recent poll (performed perhaps by OG&E) and the shortcomings of our media. Runs from 1:00:23 through 1:06:52.
https://youtu.be/Fncd4nhHFO0?t=1h22s