Love the positive comments concerning change in the face of a disappointing set back. There is a general (not complete) consensus towards good urbanism on this site. What about an OKCTalk activist group that works with other organizations to address issues around where there is some consensus?

Sadly, my prediction has come true. We traded an art piece for a mud pit, or at best a parking lot. Next up: property to be sold at substantial discount to local "investors", as the property is now clearly no longer valuable. Shades of the '60's and '70's.

/si

A good friend of mine today told me he's moving to Houston after he graduates OU next spring and the politics are one of the reasons why. I hear these stories all the time.



Good grief. Your friend either doesn't understand the local politics of OKC or doesn't understand the local politics of Houston.

I'll be even more upset if they turn it into a parking lot but that's probably is what is going to happen for at least a few years.

You make some great points here. Honest question. How would you "sell" OKC to somebody who has the option to live elsewhere and prefers bigger cities? What positives overshadow the negatives here that might convince someone considering leaving to stay?

Here are the things I can think of right off the top of my head.

The biggest thing I can think of is the low cost of living. A lot of places in the sunbelt tout it, but in OKC, it goes a step further. Urban, walkable living here is more accessible and affordable than in a lot of other cities. Austin may offer 10x the urban living options and amenities but you have to pay for it. Austin also touts a low cost of living, but to experience it you have to live out in the suburbs. The urban core of Austin is starting to rise to near California levels and its even worse in Denver. In OKC, you can live in the Paseo, Midtown, or heck even Deep Deuce for around the same cost as many places in the suburbs. If you are a young person and want to own a suburban home, that's also a lot easier to do here thanks to lower home prices than in most places. A lot of people are homeowners in their early 20s in OKC. You don't see a lot of that in other cities.

Another thing is the job market. While due to low oil prices this may be starting to change, for the past several years OKC has enjoyed a better job market than the nation as a whole. Lower competition than in more popular cities also make finding employment here easier than say somewhere like Denver or Austin.

Aside from that, how would you sell somebody on OKC? Does the low cost of living here offset all of the negatives? The new eating and drinking establishments throughout the urban neighborhoods of OKC are awesome, but you will find the same things plus some in any city the size of OKC or larger. Same with the festivals and events at MBG, Plaza District, etc. All of those are great and make living in OKC more enjoyable, but other cities have them as well.

A lot of people are tied to OKC because of their family, their job, etc and all of the improvements are making this a far more enjoyable place to live for those who are here by circumstance. I am specifically talking about those who have the option of where to live. A good friend of mine today told me he's moving to Houston after he graduates OU next spring and the politics are one of the reasons why. I hear these stories all the time.

For OKC to change, people who oppose the status quo have to stop leaving, but many feel like one person can't make a difference so why stay and fight a losing battle when the environment they want is already available elsewhere, without the negatives such as the politics, weather/tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.

Well your friend is 22 so that's about the level of decision making for that age.

If he is trying to escape bad politics, I'd suggest being an anarchist to him. I promise you Oklahoma has no monopoly on idiot politicians. I've met a state politician who legitmately couldn't read. (Not an OK one either).

Good grief. Your friend either doesn't understand the local politics of OKC or doesn't understand the local politics of Houston.

Plus Houston is about to be broke, it's staring at a humongous pension problem that politicians have just bee kicking down the road since I was a kid growing up there in the 80's.

And this surprises you? That's exactly what a bunch of us here preached for a long time prior to M3, and were consistently ragged on for it. There's a reason logrolling is illegal, because it works. From the first day Maps3 was conceived, it was a convention center plan. And not one person involved with it on the inside *didn't* know about it. Their internal surveys told them they'd have almost no chance at getting a solo convention center passed.

Better never see you or PluPan at the Riversport Rapids if you're so disgusted.

First Sandridge can't get anyone into their building. Now this project is a bust. Soon Kevin Durant will be leaving. Our city is dying before our eyes. :(

First Sandridge can't get anyone into their building. Now this project is a bust. Soon Kevin Durant will be leaving. Our city is dying before our eyes. :(

Except it was just announced First National Center is being redeveloped (finally) and there are about 150 great urban projects underway or soon to start.

Sadly, my prediction has come true. We traded an art piece for a mud pit, or at best a parking lot. Next up: property to be sold at substantial discount to local "investors", as the property is now clearly no longer valuable. Shades of the '60's and '70's.

/si

Yeah the worst part about this is it sounds like the land won't be in play for quite some time. I would love to see a quick turnaround and a new development proposed. It may not be a highrise, but something like the Steelyard fronting the park would be a total win. I don't want it to sit as a mud pit or a parking lot.

To keep things in perspective, that property has been vacant for a huge portion of the last few decades.

This is not the end of the world.

C'mon, bchris. Not everything merits the hyperbole. Not even close.

Pei Plan gutted a wide swath of old downtown OKC for decades. This situation affects one major, admittedly conspicuous intersection. Pei Plan 2.0?

No, it is literally Pei Plan 2.0. Preftakes demos (mostly for parking), SandRidge demos/crash, clearing C2C, antiquated OKC Blvd design, new convention center, new park, additional focus on the medical center / innovation district, and the loss of a landmark theater.

There is nothing happening that hasn't already happened. This is all déjà vu.

You make some great points here. Honest question. How would you "sell" OKC to somebody who has the option to live elsewhere and prefers bigger cities? What positives overshadow the negatives here that might convince someone considering leaving to stay?

Here are the things I can think of right off the top of my head.

The biggest thing I can think of is the low cost of living. A lot of places in the sunbelt tout it, but in OKC, it goes a step further. Urban, walkable living here is more accessible and affordable than in a lot of other cities. Austin may offer 10x the urban living options and amenities but you have to pay for it. Austin also touts a low cost of living, but to experience it you have to live out in the suburbs. The urban core of Austin is starting to rise to near California levels and its even worse in Denver. In OKC, you can live in the Paseo, Midtown, or heck even Deep Deuce for around the same cost as many places in the suburbs. If you are a young person and want to own a suburban home, that's also a lot easier to do here thanks to lower home prices than in most places. A lot of people are homeowners in their early 20s in OKC. You don't see a lot of that in other cities.

Another thing is the job market. While due to low oil prices this may be starting to change, for the past several years OKC has enjoyed a better job market than the nation as a whole. Lower competition than in more popular cities also make finding employment here easier than say somewhere like Denver or Austin.

Aside from that, how would you sell somebody on OKC? Does the low cost of living here offset all of the negatives? The new eating and drinking establishments throughout the urban neighborhoods of OKC are awesome, but you will find the same things plus some in any city the size of OKC or larger. Same with the festivals and events at MBG, Plaza District, etc. All of those are great and make living in OKC more enjoyable, but other cities have them as well.

A lot of people are tied to OKC because of their family, their job, etc and all of the improvements are making this a far more enjoyable place to live for those who are here by circumstance. I am specifically talking about those who have the option of where to live. A good friend of mine today told me he's moving to Houston after he graduates OU next spring and the politics are one of the reasons why. I hear these stories all the time.

For OKC to change, people who oppose the status quo have to stop leaving, but many feel like one person can't make a difference so why stay and fight a losing battle when the environment they want is already available elsewhere, without the negatives such as the politics, weather/tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.

Oh no. Old bchris02 is back. Queen City ballyhoo incoming.

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t34.0-12/12506532_10207084900513440_8124715_n.jpg?oh=2a3000 0ff04adb0ac2293b1219c1c4ae&oe=56968075

Christ people, this sucks but it isn't the end of the world. It is one lot, one project out of 100 in progress right now. Some of the self loathing and self destructive posts here are almost comical...someone's friend moving to Houston because of politics? Really? You have a problem with Oklahoma politics so you're moving to Texas? Seriously? Even if not for politics, if someone thinks Houston is on a better urbanism track or has some major economic advantage over OKC in an energy downturn, what are they looking at?

Someone else actually brought KDs free agency into a conversation about a building as if his leaving is a certainty...

You know what they always say, when the going gets tough...give up...

Christ people, this sucks but it isn't the end of the world. It is one lot, one project out of 100 in progress right now. Some of the self loathing and self destructive posts here are almost comical...someone's friend moving to Houston because of politics? Really? You have a problem with Oklahoma politics so you're moving to Texas? Seriously? Even if not for politics, if someone thinks Houston is on a better urbanism track or has some major economic advantage over OKC in an energy downturn, what are they looking at?

Someone else actually brought KDs free agency into a conversation about a building as if his leaving is a certainty...

You know what they always say, when the going gets tough...give up...

When you're really young everything bad seems like the end of the world. But, yes, I agree with you - especially your last sentence.

Oh no. Old bchris02 is back. Queen City ballyhoo incoming.

I had a huge response typed up but I don't want to further derail the thread but I will say this. With a lot of people talking about leaving OKC for one reason or another, its a legitimate question to ask as to how to convince them to stay. Not everyone is tied down and some have the option to live here or somewhere they perceive to be more to their liking and they have to make that choice. When somebody is 22 and graduating college, they have to evaluate whether they want to build their lives in OKC or somewhere else, and weigh the pros and cons of wherever they choose. I chose OKC because of its job market during the Great Recession when in much of the country unemployment rates were still over 10% and people with degrees were waiting tables, and also because of my family. I didn't choose to live here because of the politics or the weather. The urban neighborhoods, which have come a long way since 2012, were low on my priority list. I really didn't take a strong interest in urbanism until I moved back here.

Insulting people considering leaving for what they perceive, rightly or wrongly, to be greener pastures is sure way to drive them away.

Back on topic, the death of this project isn't the end of the world and life goes on. It's disappointing for those who care about the future of this city and was excited for what this project would have added to downtown, but as Pete says, the block has been vacant for decades and now it will simply stay so.

At least First National has sold and that is very exciting and will likely have a much more positive impact on downtown than this project would have even if built.

Christ people, this sucks but it isn't the end of the world. It is one lot, one project out of 100 in progress right now. Some of the self loathing and self destructive posts here are almost comical...someone's friend moving to Houston because of politics? Really? You have a problem with Oklahoma politics so you're moving to Texas? Seriously? Even if not for politics, if someone thinks Houston is on a better urbanism track or has some major economic advantage over OKC in an energy downturn, what are they looking at?

Someone else actually brought KDs free agency into a conversation about a building as if his leaving is a certainty...

You know what they always say, when the going gets tough...give up...

Don't be stupid. The progress of downtown skyscrapers is easily in kd's top 5 reasons to stay or go

Wow, this is crazy, great job Rainey, way to go! This was shady from the beginning, we knew this was a long shot, bring on the green space, lol, wow.

With a lot of people talking about leaving OKC for one reason or another.

That seems like a major exaggeration, though your interest in promoting reasons to move/stay here is encouraging.

OK folks, now that we've got this out of our system a little bit, let's consider the situation. While I agree with everyone that it totally sucks that the project is not going forward, keep in mind that OGE said the project is not dead, just on hold. Furthermore, they expanded that by saying they still had employees scattered throughout downtown (including a site that will be consumed by the Central Park and/or Convention Center (I forget which one or if its both), so they need a tower just not one that's 25 floors/500K sq ft.

And while I am totally disgusted that the city allowed Rainey Williams to come in and tear down the Stage Center so quickly and I'm equally upset at OGE for using Rainey as a front man instead of their just coming upfront with their plans - it is nice to see they do value public opinion and are chosing to wait on partnering with a larger tenant before they build the tower(s); this should give us the 25+ floor tower we all want for this piece of land.

OR - 2 years could go by and OGE could sell and build a 400 foot, 22-floor architecturally pleasing Clayco tower near their current property and turn their current building into housing/hotel (which is what should happen in the first place - enrich that part of downtown), and let the Stage Center site be redeveloped along the lines we anticipate the Ford site will be redeveloped. ... Yes, it sucks to wait this long but honestly, this could be the best thing that could have happened to this part of downtown; ensure we get a quality, highrise development rather than BOK Park Plaza disaster zone #2 fronting the elementary school.

Pete, Rainey might have been correct in his quote if you consider the proposal was to build two office towers. But I agree his involvement has been suspect all along and I hate how this all went down to be honest. OGE should have been upfront with their plans and likely could have found a tenant or two to go in the building(s) with them - if they hadn't waited so long with the financing.

As for Sandridge Tower, it might not be such a bad idea for OGE to just take over that tower and let Sandridge go into one of the smaller buildings. ... Yes, I know it would suck from the prospective of not getting a new OGE tower but at least we would no longer need to worry about that property being filled/leased and downtown could get a new spec tower or owner occupied from somebody who really needs the space. I for one, and sick and tired of Kerr McGee/Sandridge tower holding OKC hostage every time the market does a correction.

If OGE went in there, then we would lay that stone to rest once and for all as 480k sq ft is more than enough space for them in a significant high rise and if nothing else, Im sure they could figure out how to keep the lights on. ...

Here is another cruel twist...

If this had come out a few months before, Devon/Hines could have developed this property and not torn down all the buildings on the block directly north.

Hey, but we're going to have a REALLY EFFING NICE PARKING GARAGE facing ANOTHER PARKING GARAGE on one of Downtown's prime corners!

This is just WORLD CLASS in every way.

It's obvious that Devon wanted that Bus Station leveled, regardless -- and, it seems, they fought hard to get rid of the Stage Center, too. Some people probably actually think this is a good development. That's how far away those of us here screaming into the night are away from city leadership.

On my recent travels, I've concluded that OKC has lost whatever edge it had for a while. We were so far behind other cities, the changes and improvements seemed dramatic, and they were, but OKC is still behind other cities, and now our economy sucks. Our state economy sucks. Our state leadership is a punchline. Public schools are being closed and teachers face no prospect of ever making a living wage in this state. Higher education is being drained. And we have hitched our wagons 100% to Oil and Gas. Now we're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

I have seen no genuine effort to invest in serious economic development by this governor and legislature. While they argue about gays and guns and promote laughably outmoded economic thinking, they are draining the most important resource we have as a state: our people, particularly our youth, and their education and training. This does not bode well.

There is not much to be excited about, and in fact, there is much to concern any rational human being.

Gee can we just have Stage Center back yet? Or can those who celebrated its demise at least admit how they were wrong? Kthx.

I still don't miss Stage Center. Hate me if you like, but I'm not sad that it's gone. Something will go in its place. Maybe not this project, but it will get filled.

It's obvious that Devon wanted that Bus Station leveled, regardless -- and, it seems, they fought hard to get rid of the Stage Center, too. Some people probably actually think this is a good development. That's how far away those of us here screaming into the night are away from city leadership.

On my recent travels, I've concluded that OKC has lost whatever edge it had for a while. We were so far behind other cities, the changes and improvements seemed dramatic, and they were, but OKC is still behind other cities, and now our economy sucks. Our state economy sucks. Our state leadership is a punchline. Public schools are being closed and teachers face no prospect of ever making a living wage in this state. Higher education is being drained. And we have hitched our wagons 100% to Oil and Gas. Now we're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

I have seen no genuine effort to invest in serious economic development by this governor and legislature. While they argue about gays and guns and promote laughably outmoded economic thinking, they are draining the most important resource we have as a state: our people, particularly our youth, and their education and training. This does not bode well.

There is not much to be excited about, and in fact, there is much to concern any rational human being.

Woe is me, let's go jump off a bridge. Jesus.

Gee can we just have Stage Center back yet? Or can those who celebrated its demise at least admit how they were wrong? Kthx.

Honestly I'd rather have the Preftakes block back. I guess an eternally empty stage center would be better than a field, but I would rather the BOK project be on this lot.

BTW, I seriously doubt the timing of this announcement was just coincidental...

I'm sure OG&E wanted to deflect the negative response with the good news of First National Center.



Anyway, apart from the ruse and the intentional deception that has been the hallmark of this project, I'm already over the disappointment.

At best, we were going to get some shadow of what had been most recently proposed and that was nothing to get excited about.

Honestly I'd rather have the Preftakes block back. I guess an eternally empty stage center would be better than a field, but I would rather the BOK project be on this lot.

Agreed. And we didn't have to lose it. That's what's really frustrating.

I still don't miss Stage Center. Hate me if you like, but I'm not sad that it's gone. Something will go in its place. Maybe not this project, but it will get filled.

Amen.

Gee can we just have Stage Center back yet? Or can those who celebrated its demise at least admit how they were wrong? Kthx.

Won't admit it for a second. Just because this particular project went south has no bearing on the illusory relevance of the SC. SC had proven to be an economically unfeasable albatross no matter how many of the arts crowd genuflect at its memory. The folks and organizations who tried to use it paid the price for its impracticality and obsolescence. Good riddance. Delighted that aspect of this issue is perhaps the archetype of a dead horse.

We now know the situation as many suspected from the beginning. Instead of acting like the sky is falling, we should take stock of the lessons we've learned from this and agree to not forget them. So what are those lessons? I'd start with these, and you can add your own:

1) The city's planning leaders have a clear bias against urban planning. They will allow the gutting of much of downtown, not based on good planning and development guidelines, but simply based on whose name and money is attached to the project. The fact that the name and money is driving planning decisions at city hall should be concerning.

2) Have a great deal of skepticism toward local news reporters who demean message boards and claim higher knowledge than everyone else. Statements like if you don't think Rainey Williams can get this project done, you don't know Rainey Williams was in direct response to the rightful skepticism many on this message board had given the circumstances surrounding the sell of the property and the subsequent announced plans.

3) There is much more than oil and energy driving OKC's economy these days and entrepreneurs are out there to keep things going strong. No doubt the next couple years will be tough relative to the last five, but it's not the total collapse some seem to believe has occurred. First National has the potential to become a great gem again.

I think at this point, SOMEBODY needs to be held accountable for allowing the Stage Center to be demolished prior to a deal being done for its replacement.

Like it or not, Stage Center was an internationally recognized work of art. It was non-functional and bad urbanism and I have no issues with it being replaced, but to destroy it for what has been a mud pit for quite some time and now looks like it will be that or green space for the forseeable future is something that needs to be addressed.

It's essential that this conversation be had in order to preserve what little history this city has left. Developers can't be allowed to come in with big promises, demolish something historic, and then walk away leaving OKC with nothing. Stage Center isn't the first time this has happened and it won't be the last if something isn't done to address it.

OK folks, now that we've got this out of our system a little bit, let's consider the situation. While I agree with everyone that it totally sucks that the project is not going forward, keep in mind that OGE said the project is not dead, just on hold. Furthermore, they expanded that by saying they still had employees scattered throughout downtown (including a site that will be consumed by the Central Park and/or Convention Center (I forget which one or if its both), so they need a tower just not one that's 25 floors/500K sq ft.

And while I am totally disgusted that the city allowed Rainey Williams to come in and tear down the Stage Center so quickly and I'm equally upset at OGE for using Rainey as a front man instead of their just coming upfront with their plans - it is nice to see they do value public opinion and are chosing to wait on partnering with a larger tenant before they build the tower(s); this should give us the 25+ floor tower we all want for this piece of land.

OR - 2 years could go by and OGE could sell and build a 400 foot, 22-floor architecturally pleasing Clayco tower near their current property and turn their current building into housing/hotel (which is what should happen in the first place - enrich that part of downtown), and let the Stage Center site be redeveloped along the lines we anticipate the Ford site will be redeveloped. ... Yes, it sucks to wait this long but honestly, this could be the best thing that could have happened to this part of downtown; ensure we get a quality, highrise development rather than BOK Park Plaza disaster zone #2 fronting the elementary school.

What? Optimism and hopefulness? You're not jumping off a bridge? Good *might* come from all this?

Love it :) Don't pretend to know how it will all turn out, but man, an optimistic view is surely a nice one to read.

^^^^^^

I still don't miss Stage Center. Hate me if you like, but I'm not sad that it's gone. Something will go in its place. Maybe not this project, but it will get filled.

You're a stubborn fool, congrats.

And another..


Won't admit it for a second. Just because this particular project went south has no bearing on the illusory relevance of the SC. SC had proven to be an economically unfeasable albatross no matter how many of the arts crowd genuflect at its memory. The folks and organizations who tried to use it paid the price for its impracticality and obsolescence. Good riddance. Delighted that aspect of this issue is perhaps the archetype of a dead horse.

Stage Center needed $20 million of support to be a children's museum which by the way, nearly every city but us has. OG+E Center needed over $100 million of support in order to be privately owned and leased real estate. You tell me which project is an economically unfeasible albatross. I have no idea the rest of the gibberish in your post.

You're a stubborn fool, congrats.

And another..



Stage Center needed $20 million of support to be a children's museum which by the way, nearly every city but us has. OG+E Center needed over $100 million of support in order to be privately owned and leased real estate. You tell me which project is an economically unfeasible albatross. I have no idea the rest of the gibberish in your post.
Some of you people are forgetting that this Spartan dude walks on water and what he says is gospel. Most of his posts are not gibberish, but, the crying and ranting of a child that did/does not get their way.

Man, this thread....just wow.

Instead of being an indictment on a shady developer and a shaky process at the municipal level (all fair criticisms) it becomes a rant against the entire city. There is probably $500 million in development within a half mile radius of this, not including the convention center, river developments, or First National Tower, but hey...the sky is falling!

Also, LOL at the thought of someone moving to Houston in the middle of an oil downturn. Good luck finding a job, you'll be competing with around 20K laid off energy workers.

Man, this thread....just wow.

Instead of being an indictment on a shady developer and a shaky process at the municipal level (all fair criticisms) it becomes a rant against the entire city. There is probably $500 million in development within a half mile radius of this, not including the convention center, river developments, or First National Tower, but hey...the sky is falling!

Also, LOL at the thought of someone moving to Houston in the middle of an oil downturn. Good luck finding a job, you'll be competing with around 20K laid off energy workers.

$500 million is pretty low for the downtown of a city our size.

Man, this thread....just wow.

Instead of being an indictment on a shady developer and a shaky process at the municipal level (all fair criticisms) it becomes a rant against the entire city. There is probably $500 million in development within a half mile radius of this, not including the convention center, river developments, or First National Tower, but hey...the sky is falling!

Also, LOL at the thought of someone moving to Houston in the middle of an oil downturn. Good luck finding a job, you'll be competing with around 20K laid off energy workers.

This

Our unemployment rate here is still very low.


I also think it's completely irresponsible for journalists to pin this on oil prices.

Of course the developer is going to use that excuse but that doesn't make it true. Remember, TEEMCO blamed the price of oil for all it's problems too and the people printing those claims never bothered to look up energy prices then overlay that on the timeline of all their legal and financial problems.

Price of oil sure didn't stop Hines/Devon on their nearly identical project, which started later than this one.

Developers are notorious for coming up for some external excuse as to why they are late, failed or can't even get out of the gates. And why not when the paper will just print their claims without any fact checking or perspective whatsoever?


I said this months ago: Every developer and business that encounters problems are now going to blame oil prices and to merely perpetuate that becomes this ridiculous self-fulfilling prophecy.

There is a time for optimism and a time for pessimism. A person can be optimistic about the overall direction of OKC while being pessimistic about this deal and the factors and politics that led to it. Without criticism, there will never be a change in thinking and this kind of thing will keep happening.

Here's my question, and I'm sure I'll be trolled by someone with sooner in their username, but here goes: Have we solved the Mystery Tower yet? Or will we ever?

See if you can post without insulting people then maybe you won't get 'trolled'...


To answer your question, I'm sure it was Clayco who originally big on Stage Center, were rebuffed in favor of Rainey Williams and OG&E, and then were looking for other sites until they attempted to become partners in the Stage Center deal.

There is a time for optimism and a time for pessimism. A person can be optimistic about the overall direction of OKC while being pessimistic about this deal and the factors and politics that led to it. Without criticism, there will never be a change in thinking and this kind of thing will keep happening.

There is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism, the latter of which has been in short supply over the last day or so.

I'd like to see the housing portion of the Clayco deal be built at 4th and EKG.

There is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism, the latter of which has been in short supply over the last day or so.

Even the former has been in short supply, mostly we've been getting sky is falling style panic.

Even the former has been in short supply, mostly we've been getting sky is falling style panic.

A few posts, but its mostly been lamenting the loss of Stage Center for what appears will be nothing for the foreseeable future. Can the blame be solely placed on OG&E and Rainey Williams? Or...is there a bigger issue with how things operate in this city that led to this? It's a question that needs to be asked.

Even the former has been in short supply, mostly we've been getting sky is falling style panic.

True. In a thread about 1....one...failed development that was shaky even 2 years ago when proposed, we've now seen disparaging comments about Mary Fallin, Scott Pruitt, the legislature, public schools, Kevin Durant, the thunder, gay marriage, the second coming of the pei plan, earthquakes, the impending mass exodus of people from OKC (one person leaving for the utopia that is Houston), and the inevitable complete and utter failure of OKC's (and OKs) economy due to 1+ year of a less than stellar economic conditions (after 6+ years of excellent economic conditions)... It's annoyingly comical.

I also think it's completely irresponsible for journalists to pin this on oil prices.

Yeah, clearly it was unfeasible on it's own from the beginning or, at the very least, the developers didn't have the resources to make it happen on their own. They didn't get their TIF and are now bailing out. That's pretty much it. Do oil prices affect demand for spec office space in OKC? Of course it does, but they bought and tore down Stage Center before they even knew if they would get the public subsidy needed to make it market worthy. Now, I know some people love to hate on Stage Center, but it's really more about the process. This has happened before and could easily happen again to structures that are less divisive and more universally appreciated if the process continues to be the same.

Just about every empty or underused lot downtown is a product of this exact same approach. Downtown became a desolate and undesirable place for decades because of it and it didn't begin to change until renovation and reuse began in Bricktown. We have some nice new developments downtown now, but no one even wanted to be there (certainly not after 5pm) until some realized the potential in the older decaying buildings that were spared. Stage Center may not have been understood by many people, but it was truly one of a kind, which is very rare in Oklahoma City. For that reason alone, it should not have been torn down for a project that never had a way to pay for itself.

Looks like we have another opportunity to live the motto: Labor omnia vincit!

I'm not even just upset about the Stage Center, but the loss of some vibrant activity in the area with no replacement. In addition to the Festival of the Arts, how many little festivals and events did we end up loosing in that area that were generating foot traffic and business in the neighboring restaurants and parks?

Even the former has been in short supply, mostly we've been getting sky is falling style panic.

Maybe, but it's not unjustified. This is not an isolated event. Clearly, it's not as much the norm anymore. A lot of great stuff has gotten built. But this exact scenario is what defined Oklahoma City for a long time and it is unfortunate that, despite all the great advances the city has made, it can still happen. It shows that even in the best of times, the city can still be snowed by grand promises that in reality were just ploys by developers to get public subsidy and if they don't get it they take their ball and go home. We really do need a better way to prevent this kind of deception against the city going forward.

True. In a thread about 1....one...failed development that was shaky even 2 years ago when proposed.

But it is one in a long history of failed developments. It's that thing about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I think if downtown wasn't full of scars caused by this exact same thing, it would be different. But I guess it does make sense that people who didn't care about the history of our architecture wouldn't care about the history of our mistakes too.

BDP is completely right. It isn't about just this one development. It's about a broken process that has lead to gaping holes in downtown OKC over the decades and nearly killed downtown in the 1960s through the 1980s. Stage Center was a polarizing development and not everybody liked it, but this could easily happen to a beloved architectural treasure. It has countless times before and until policies are put into place to prevent it, there is a risk of it happening again. Personally, I think OKC is very lucky that BOK Park Plaza is moving forward. That could have very easily been another similar story that would have sparked far more outrage given what was lost.

So, back to sky is falling, then? K.

So, back to sky is falling, then? K.

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other?

The sky isn't falling and there is a lot to be optimistic about in terms of the overall direction of downtown OKC. This specific development, however, is evidence of a very real problem that has plagued downtown for many decades. It would be nice if this could be the catalyst for finally doing something about it.

I also think it's completely irresponsible for journalists to pin this on oil prices.

Of course the developer is going to use that excuse but that doesn't make it true. Remember, TEEMCO blamed the price of oil for all it's problems too and the people printing those claims never bothered to look up energy prices then overlay that on the timeline of all their legal and financial problems.

Price of oil sure didn't stop Hines/Devon on their nearly identical project, which started later than this one.

Developers are notorious for coming up for some external excuse as to why they are late, failed or can't even get out of the gates. And why not when the paper will just print their claims without any fact checking or perspective whatsoever?


I said this months ago: Every developer and business that encounters problems are now going to blame oil prices and to merely perpetuate that becomes this ridiculous self-fulfilling prophecy.


Yet that's exactly what's happening. The only comments from government in Steve's article were positive-spin comments from Jim Couch. The city isn't holding developers accountable, and journalists aren't holding the city accountable... So I guess we'll just write this off as an 'oops,' and do it again in a few years?