Who is to blame here? Who let Oklahoma City down?

Doubt Clayco did but we'll likely never know about Williams.

Remember, I reported just before that property closed that OG&E was the buyer and I got that from two different sources who absolutely knew what was going in. They were surprised as anyone when Williams was put fort as the buyer and both said he was still just a front for OG&E.

What a strange coincidence all that has come to pass now.

Thanks Pete. This is all very strange.

I wonder if OGE would entertain ideas from the community about temporary use? I'd like to see more than a well manicured lawn there.

How does OKC "severely underutilize" the Myriad Gardens? Seems a dramatic overstatement.

The park depends on events and programming to get utilization. If people lived near it, it would get used all the time because it would be in people's front yards.

Let's not go off in the weeds.... The MBG is heavily used all year round.

With the MAPS 3 park just starting up and Kerr/Couch parks set to reopen, the last thing we need is another big grassy open space.

OGE holding out hope for oil prices to recover is my guess. But I bet we see it for sale within 2 years if prices don't go back up.

I wish they would list it right now. Maybe the powerball winner will be in OK and someone can afford it.

Here is another cruel twist...

If this had come out a few months before, Devon/Hines could have developed this property and not torn down all the buildings on the block directly north.

Here is another cruel twist...

If this had come out a few months before, Devon/Hines could have developed this property and not torn down all the buildings on the block directly north.

We didn't need to know this....

This can not be unseen.

With the MAPS 3 park just starting up and Kerr/Couch parks set to reopen, the last thing we need is another big grassy open space.

Downtown has far too many open grassy spaces as it is...for reasons exactly like what happened with Stage Center and Clayco. Developers come in with big promises, proceed with demolition, and then something always happens that causes them to not deliver so the lot stays empty for years if not decades, or becomes surface parking.

The park depends on events and programming to get utilization. If people lived near it, it would get used all the time because it would be in people's front yards.

I understand that, but to call it "severely underutilized" is absurd. Instead, just say something more accurate and reasonable like, "quality residential development around the park could improve its 24/7 use..." Anyway, back to topic.

Here is another cruel twist...

If this had come out a few months before, Devon/Hines could have developed this property and not torn down all the buildings on the block directly north.

This was my exact thought and it's such total bull**** we lost that block when it easily could have gone here. What a colossal f*ck up.

Here is another cruel twist...

If this had come out a few months before, Devon/Hines could have developed this property and not torn down all the buildings on the block directly north.

This is basically Pei Plan 2.0.

Here is another cruel twist...

If this had come out a few months before, Devon/Hines could have developed this property and not torn down all the buildings on the block directly north.


We didn't need to know this....

This can not be unseen.


This was my exact thought and it's such total bull**** we lost that block when it easily could have gone here. What a colossal f*ck up.

Did not need that to come to realization. OUCH.

Here is another cruel twist...

If this had come out a few months before, Devon/Hines could have developed this property and not torn down all the buildings on the block directly north.

Ouch.

This site needs to be a part of the new John Rex Middle/High School.

This site needs to be a part of the new John Rex Middle/High School.

Turn it into a big fun park for the kids. Bumper boats, mini golf, go carts. I can see it now. The lake is already there for the bumper boats.

Sad that we tore down Stage Center, which could've been renovated into a very unique children's museum. In Oklahoma, why do we always tear down historic structures when instead we could renovate them and reuse them into something unique? Belle Isle Power plant comes to mind. Could've become a very unique space which could've complimented an upscale retail area. Instead we're left with a Super Wal-Mart and seas of surface parking.

Can we close this thread and reopen the Stage Center thread? Something we had is way more relevant to discussion than something that never was.

This is basically Pei Plan 2.0.

Dude, seriously...just stop while you're ahead.

Dude, seriously...just stop while you're ahead.

In a weird way, he's not entirely off base. We lost nearly an entire city block of some of our oldest buildings for a building that could have gone on an empty lot that's going to sit empty for years.

Steve looks pretty happy in his interview......

Oil prices are a scapegoat. Clayco demanded the ridiculous subsidy when oil was still at $100/bbl so obviously they didn't think the market could support the project then, let alone now.

In a weird way, he's not entirely off base. We lost nearly an entire city block of some of our oldest buildings for a building that could have gone on an empty lot that's going to sit empty for years.

I get the parallels but it is just more of BChris being overly dramatic. It sucks but Devon bought that block and intended to develop it regardless of what happened to the south. This wasn't a city sponsored effort to flatten either block. Who knows if Devon would've been able to sell or swap the Stage Center block with OG&E, or whether Devon would've wanted to pay additional money to buy the the block from OG&E. Even then, what happens to the current BOK block? Does OG&E leave it to rot and eventually flatten it to build their complex there? Would someone buy it from Devon or OG&E if they marketed it? Would Devon have even wanted the Stage Center lot if it was an option? They had plenty of time to buy it if they wanted to go that direction over the last 6-10 years but chose not to. '

Knowing what we know now it would've been nice if Devon/BOK knew the Stage Center block was in play prior to demoing their current tower location, but there are a ton of IFs.

There's a lot of disappointment that we will not see the proposed OG&E development promised by Clayco.

You know what I'm thinking? OG&E will probably renovate their current structure.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8227/8486821902_529625ed35_c.jpg
The OG&E structure could use some sprucing up. Don't dare think about a rate hike...

I get the parallels but it is just more of BChris being overly dramatic. It sucks but Devon bought that block and intended to develop it regardless of what happened to the south. This wasn't a city sponsored effort to flatten either block. Who knows if Devon would've been able to sell or swap the Stage Center block with OG&E, or whether Devon would've wanted to pay additional money to buy the the block from OG&E. Even then, what happens to the current BOK block? Does OG&E leave it to rot and eventually flatten it? Would someone buy it from Devon or OG&E if they marketed it? Would Devon have even wanted the Stage Center lot if it was an option? They had plenty of time to buy it if they wanted to go that direction over the last 6-10 years but chose not to. '

Knowing what we know now it would've been nice if Devon/BOK knew the Stage Center block was in play prior to demoing their current tower location, but there are a ton of IFs.

You're spot on about a ton of IFs. However, I think it's at least debatable that it wasn't a city-sponsored effort to flatten either block - it seems like it could have been Devon sponsored. And there were other development options for the buildings that Devon leveled. RePUBlic wanted the bus station space, there was a rumored hotel option for the other corner building, both of which I think would have led to interest in the other buildings. But as you said, too many IFs and it's much too late now.

Knowing what we know now it would've been nice if Devon/BOK knew the Stage Center block was in play prior to demoing their current tower location, but there are a ton of IFs.

Of course they knew.

First, Pete Delaney and Larry Nichols are very tight.

Secondly, Nichols is Chairman of both OCURA and the Alliance for Economic Development. Given his position in the latter, he knew exactly where the OG&E / Clayco deal stood because the Alliance was the group negotiating with OG&E directly for public assistance.

The OG&E deal had turned south a long time ago.

Friendly public-service announcement: You all pretty much cheered on the Stage Center's demolition.

Not really. I even spoke against demolition at the DDRC meetings and I HATE public speaking.

Of course they knew.

First, Pete Delaney and Larry Nichols are very tight.

Secondly, Nichols is Chairman of both OCURA and the Alliance for Economic Development. Given his position in the latter, he knew exactly where the OG&E / Clayco stood because the Alliance was the group negotiating with OG&E directly for public assistance.

The OG&E deal had turned south a long time ago.

I figured that was probably the case. It seems even less likely then that Devon would ever have chosen the stage center site over the current block regardless of OG&E's situation (Which is annoying).

From that article:



So, fill in the lake, plant some grass and hope maybe someday something gets built there.


Before energy prices are blamed for this, it should be noted that BOK Plaza started way later and is now coming out of the ground. This was just a cluster from the beginning including the ridiculous ruse by Rainey Williams that was happily promoted without scrutiny by the local press.


Wow, is this the ultimate indictment of OKC's strong bias toward developers and big business vs. preservation of our history.

Cue a huge uproar and an avalanche of told-ya-so's.

Oh I don't know. We might get a really nice surface parking lot out of this once all is said and done. I guess I have ESPN.

Devon wanted the site closest to it's current campus so it could directly connect it with skybridges.

However, if this news about OG&E scrapping it's plans had come out before they requested that all those historic buildings be destroyed, there would have been a much bigger outcry for them to take up the dormant OG&E property and spare that important block.

I figured that was probably the case. It seems even less likely then that Devon would ever have chosen the stage center site over the current block regardless of OG&E's situation (Which is annoying).

I wonder how much this has to do with Devon wanting a skywalk from BOK Park Plaza to their main tower? I remember that being the excuse for why they couldn't build their tower directly west of One North Hudson and why they needed to have the tower actually fronting Hudson.

Devon wanted the site closest to it's current campus so it could directly connect it with skybridges.

However, if this news about OG&E scrapping it's plans had come out before they requested that all those historic buildings be destroyed, there would have been a much bigger outcry for them to take up the dormant OG&E property and spare that important block.

I blame the city for letting them get away with this just as much as Hines or Rainey Williams. Destroy all that history and urban vitality simply for a skywalk? This is absolutely unbelievable.

Devon wanted the site closest to it's current campus so it could directly connect it with skybridges.

However, if this news about OG&E scrapping it's plans had come out before they requested that all those historic buildings be destroyed, there would have been a much bigger outcry for them to take up the dormant OG&E property and spare that important block.


The real question is how much did Nichols pay to OGE to wait until his new building was coming coming out of the ground to announce the failure of the Clayco development? /tinfoil

The real question is how much did Nichols pay to OGE to wait until his new building was coming coming out of the ground to announce the failure of the Clayco development? /tinfoil

This entire thing stinks so much you are probably right.

Before energy prices are blamed for this, it should be noted that BOK Plaza started way later and is now coming out of the ground. This was just a cluster from the beginning including the ridiculous ruse by Rainey Williams that was happily promoted without scrutiny by the local press.


Wow, is this the ultimate indictment of OKC's strong bias toward developers and big business vs. preservation of our history.

Cue a huge uproar and an avalanche of told-ya-so's.

Absolutely. This is the result when downtown reporters act like cheerleaders instead of objectively covering their beat.

I wonder how much this has to do with Devon wanting a skywalk from BOK Park Plaza to their main tower? I remember that being the excuse for why they couldn't build their tower directly west of One North Hudson and why they needed to have the tower actually fronting Hudson.

This does not hold water. Every conceptual drawing has the sky bridge link to the new NE garage only. It then links to the BOK Plaza building. One North Hudson being demolished had nothing to do with the sky bridge link from across the street, imo.

This is so frustrating that I'm at a loss for words. Surely changes are due; no, changes must be demanded and must be made on a number of levels. May this type of mess never happen again...at least not at this level!

Yet another wrinkle...

This site could have and should have been considered for the convention center and convention hotel.

In Oklahoma, why do we always tear down historic structures when instead we could renovate them and reuse them into something unique?.

What's interesting is that in recent years that has changed a lot and some of the most popular and vibrant areas of the city owe their success to renovation and reuse. And those areas are what has forged a vibrant and unique identity for Oklahoma City.

Maybe by the next time there is enough money in the city to generate a development boom, the people in charge of that money and the people in charge of the city will be people who remember this and recognize the significant impact and advantages renovation can have on the community and economy.

Yet another wrinkle...

This site could have and should have been considered for the convention center and convention hotel.

Very glad that didn't work out. Fronting the park with a convention center is a waste in my opinion and would have potentially created a barrier going west.

Maybe we can just close Hudson and expand the Myriad Gardens to the west? Would never happen though as that piece of property is worth way too much money.

Very glad that didn't work out. Fronting the park with a convention center is a waste in my opinion and would have potentially created a barrier going west.

The favorite site of the consultants fronted on the park and on the second pass they were still proposing the center on the south of the gardens and the hotel to the west.

And the only reason those sites weren't selected were due to cost.

That would be great. We could replicate the urban planning failure of the Cox, on a different side of the park.

Yet another wrinkle...

This site could have and should have been considered for the convention center and convention hotel.Let's please not give these people any ideas. I have recently come to the conclusion that MAPS 3 is a disaster and I'm honestly concerned whether the convention center will get completely finished and they keep delaying this thing time and time again. It's affected the streetcar, funding for other projects, I mean they have made it clear MAPS 3 was specifically designed for the convention center.

It's too late to change the convention center once again anyway, just interesting to think about.

That would be great. We could replicate the urban planning failure of the Cox, on a different side of the park.

Like

This is basically Pei Plan 2.0.

C'mon, bchris. Not everything merits the hyperbole. Not even close.

Pei Plan gutted a wide swath of old downtown OKC for decades. This situation affects one major, admittedly conspicuous intersection. Pei Plan 2.0?

That would be great. We could replicate the urban planning failure of the Cox, on a different side of the park.

If it hadn't been for the price, they would have happily moved it to the south side of the park. That was the plan they worked very hard to make happen.

Let's please not give these people any ideas. I have recently come to the conclusion that MAPS 3 is a disaster and I'm honestly concerned whether the convention center will get completely finished and they keep delaying this thing time and time again. It's affected the streetcar, funding for other projects, I mean they have made it clear MAPS 3 was specifically designed for the convention center.

And this surprises you? That's exactly what a bunch of us here preached for a long time prior to M3, and were consistently ragged on for it. There's a reason logrolling is illegal, because it works. From the first day Maps3 was conceived, it was a convention center plan. And not one person involved with it on the inside *didn't* know about it. Their internal surveys told them they'd have almost no chance at getting a solo convention center passed.

Pei Plan gutted a wide swath of old downtown OKC for decades. This situation affects one major, admittedly conspicuous intersection. Pei Plan 2.0?

Yeah, maybe we should just say it finishes what the Pei Plan started.

C'mon, bchris. Not everything merits the hyperbole. Not even close.

Pei Plan gutted a wide swath of old downtown OKC for decades. This situation affects one major, admittedly conspicuous intersection. Pei Plan 2.0?

Really when you consider that an entire block was cleared for the OGE Center and then another entire city clock was cleared for the BOK Center, he's not too far off. That's a lot of property that was cleared right in the middle of the CBD.

Yeah, maybe we should just say it finishes what the Pei Plan started.

This.

And this surprises you? That's exactly what a bunch of us here preached for a long time prior to M3, and were consistently ragged on for it. There's a reason logrolling is illegal, because it works. From the first day Maps3 was conceived, it was a convention center plan. And not one person involved with it on the inside *didn't* know about it. Their internal surveys told them they'd have almost no chance at getting a solo convention center passed.

I doesn't surprise me now, but when MAPS 3 was being considered and ultimately passed, I did not think it was for the convention center. I have learned many new things since then and from what I have witnessed happen with MAPS3, it's made itself clear what it was really for.

This is only a symptom of what amounts to the 'Ole Boy Network' 4.0.
From an internationally recognized structure that added quirky archetecture to the quilt of Oklahoma City to - this. Wow.

I just feel so... Defeated... By all of this. Pretty much everything I said I really hoped wouldn't happen in the Stage Center thread has come to pass. It was so obvious what we were doing was exactly the same kind of unguaranteed nonsense that got us into trouble during the Pei Plan era.

We've replaced a world-renowned architectural piece with a big muddy pond with no plans to develop on it anytime soon. And we've destroyed the last remaining elements of our Main Street heritage to boot.

I'm afraid this is the day I have given up on Oklahoma City.

This is only a symptom of what amounts to the 'Ole Boy Network' 4.0.
From an internationally recognized structure that added quirky archetecture to the quilt of Oklahoma City to - this. Wow.
Yeah. I'm pretty much done with hoping this city gets better. It is, but nothing changes on large scale.

With the state proposing a new ban on gay marriage, this, the earthquakes, I don't want to make it sound like the sky is falling because it certainly isn't, but this place sucks right now. I talk to so many people who feel the same way. Was in Deep Deuce talking with a lady from London who can't wait to get out of here and move to San Francisco. I have conversations like that with people all the time. I'm even leaving back out to Cali earlier than I had planned because I feel like I'm loosing my mind here.

Perhaps once I get older I'll find beauty in my home city that I want to see grow prosper, but right now I can't handle this insanity.

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

Your. Best. Post. Ever.

I agree completely. That's why in my post I said that these are only symptoms of problems, not a problem in and of itself. You can treat symptoms even when you might not be able to cure the disease. I also said the good 'ole boy network 4.0 for a reason. I've seen them come and go. Some of it is passed down, but it's a club of elitism and expectations that feel entitled every bit as much as some people think today's young people are. Granted, we can't get our Mummer's/Stage Center back, but we can hold these people accountable and use it as a cautionary tale. Again.

PluPan, I've been where you are - many times. I ended up back here for a reason. It's a neat little city. I understand your frustrations and I would probably, in all honesty, do what you are wanting to do at your age. You should see and do what you can. Things change fast, but you can never get these relatively roots-free years back once it's time you want to settle down. That may be somewhere else, or you may find you really do like it better here than you think today. But, damn, be careful; I worry about you in a lot of ways. Just from your posts. I mean that in a parental kind of way, which of course I am not, but you know what I mean. Whatever you choose now - good luck to you.

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

You make some great points here. Honest question. How would you "sell" OKC to somebody who has the option to live elsewhere and prefers bigger cities? What positives overshadow the negatives here that might convince someone considering leaving to stay?

Here are the things I can think of right off the top of my head.

The biggest thing I can think of is the low cost of living. A lot of places in the sunbelt tout it, but in OKC, it goes a step further. Urban, walkable living here is more accessible and affordable than in a lot of other cities. Austin may offer 10x the urban living options and amenities but you have to pay for it. Austin also touts a low cost of living, but to experience it you have to live out in the suburbs. The urban core of Austin is starting to rise to near California levels and its even worse in Denver. In OKC, you can live in the Paseo, Midtown, or heck even Deep Deuce for around the same cost as many places in the suburbs. If you are a young person and want to own a suburban home, that's also a lot easier to do here thanks to lower home prices than in most places. A lot of people are homeowners in their early 20s in OKC. You don't see a lot of that in other cities.

Another thing is the job market. While due to low oil prices this may be starting to change, for the past several years OKC has enjoyed a better job market than the nation as a whole. Lower competition than in more popular cities also make finding employment here easier than say somewhere like Denver or Austin.

Aside from that, how would you sell somebody on OKC? Does the low cost of living here offset all of the negatives? The new eating and drinking establishments throughout the urban neighborhoods of OKC are awesome, but you will find the same things plus some in any city the size of OKC or larger. Same with the festivals and events at MBG, Plaza District, etc. All of those are great and make living in OKC more enjoyable, but other cities have them as well.

A lot of people are tied to OKC because of their family, their job, etc and all of the improvements are making this a far more enjoyable place to live for those who are here by circumstance. I am specifically talking about those who have the option of where to live. A good friend of mine today told me he's moving to Houston after he graduates OU next spring and the politics are one of the reasons why. I hear these stories all the time.

For OKC to change, people who oppose the status quo have to stop leaving, but many feel like one person can't make a difference so why stay and fight a losing battle when the environment they want is already available elsewhere, without the negatives such as the politics, weather/tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.

My understanding is that devon was planning on leasing a huge chunk of office space in this building. They are out of room in the new tower. However, with the lull in oil prices, their appetite for spending this money probably went away. If the developers of this building were planning on that extra money, then it makes sense as to why this deal fell through.

You make some great points here. Honest question. How would you "sell" OKC to somebody who has the option to live elsewhere and prefers bigger cities? What positives overshadow the negatives here that might convince someone considering leaving to stay?

I didn't read the rest of what you wrote because I do this all the time and here's what I say...


OKC is up and coming with plenty to do, good restaurants and bars and incredibly friendly people.

It's also the most inclusive place I've ever visited. Business and citizens help each other out rather than compete and all in aid of making the City better. It's a crazy pro-business climate and you wont' find many places with more civic pride.

It's also super easy to get involved in meaningful civic movements, the arts, and all types of other areas. Also super easy to meet and get to know people in general.

It's a very easy place to live, not only from a cost of living standpoint but due to very little traffic and most people being pleasant everywhere you go.

You can live in a beautiful home in the suburbs or rent a cool apartment downtown and walk everywhere with tons of people out every night of the week.


And finally, I tell them that after 25 years in Southern California, I've been very happy since moving back and beside the ocean, there isn't much there I can't find here... And I actually end up doing more here because it's affordable and easy to get around and people aren't working 70 hours a week.

Take the opportunity to lend them positives about this city and how great it actually is. You obviously haven't run into me in Deep Deuce, because I am nothing but ecstatic about what this city has become and where it is going. I want you, Plu Pan, and others to take the negative energy you have to try and better the city. You are young and can make a difference. Make this city become what you vision. Vote against the things you mentioned above, and encourage your peers to do the same. Complaining about this place is easy, but trying to be part of the very fabric that will change this city takes effort. I am inspired by your passion for this city, and you should use it to inspire those around you.

Ahem, in the Current Events sub forum I started a thread about what we're going to do to make 2016 a better place in Oklahoma.
I encourage anyone interested to go and use it as a page to network and spread ideas that will help our towns, cities, and state as a whole.

Too much whining abounds everywhere but what are we actually doing to try and make the situation better?

Also, I'm just as disappointed in today's announcement, I think anyone following this thread probably knows that. I was really looking forward to the revised plans. It's a shame, and SC should have never been demo'd, but we can't change the past, can we? We can only move forward. So, to those who are going as far as suggesting or hinting that they're completely done with OKC or that this is the doom of the city, I have one piece of constructive, but harsh advice: get up and get over yourselves.

OKC has become and is still becoming a destination city for many. OKC is!!!
It's still young and developing, give it time. In the meantime, get out and make the community better. Quit waiting on government to do it, some things are better left off to us common folk anyway.

Plus, despite what happened on the block to the North, we'll have a nice and sleek 27 floor tower to sit right next to the pinnacle of the skyline here in a couple years. So it's not all doom and gloom.