How likely would it be for the hotel to go on the south Clayco site and use the OG&E tower matching design?

South ClayCo site -- very likely.
OG&E tower design -- just my suggestion.

Do we have any type of timeline at all as to when we can expect some noise from this project?

It's clear everyone believes (or knows) that all parties are waiting on the CC confirmation, but when is that expected?

This thing is dragging out, and I noticed a nice little pond on the site.

I think they'll make a decision on the convention center within 30 days, and I'm also sure the convention hotel will be going on the south half of this block.

Pete, is there still hope that the OG&E Headquarters tower will be built by Clayco?

Yes, I think Clayco is trying to figure out how to do this with little or no TIF funds, as the City seems to be holding firm in not wanting to give them anywhere near what they have requested.

Interesting. I wonder if they are considering condensing the scope into ONLY one or two towers, combining the HQ with residential, or residential with the hotel, etc.?

Interesting. I wonder if they are considering condensing the scope into ONLY one or two towers, combining the HQ with residential, or residential with the hotel, etc.?

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but spoke to a friend that works for OG&E and he said they want to build a 17 story tower and the city wants it to be as originally proposed.

I hope that we will not have to prepare ourselves for disappointment.

I was not a fan of Stage Center, but having it demolished and a empty lot sitting in the heart of the city is unacceptable.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but spoke to a friend that works for OG&E and he said they want to build a 17 story tower and the city wants it to be as originally proposed.

I hope that we will not have to prepare ourselves for disappointment.

I was not a fan of Stage Center, but having it demolished and a empty lot sitting in the heart of the city is unacceptable.


https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.h%2bSTfXGnSnwrT%2bdaLm6RFw&pid=15.1&P=0 vs.https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.rC82H0oMJpfzMGMIxyTO2w&pid=15.1&P=0

So, OG&E wants to go back to this?

Oh, boy. So with that it would seem it would go back to the original proposal.

I think we would all much rather see a tower with the design of the current proposal. One would think they could pull off that 25 story model and combine what they were originally planning. But, then again, that's why I'm not in any of these professions.

Steve had these comments in his chat yesterday...

"Steve Lackmeyer
‎11‎:‎12‎:‎35‎ ‎AM
When this project began, Rainey Williams Jr. came in with a respectable track record at BOK Plaza and other real estate ventures and OGE Energy Corp seemed like a strong enough anchor to make this project a go. But reaction to the initial development, a mid-rise building, was far from enthusiastic. So Williams then teamed up with Clayco, which proposed a far more impressive development with four towers, 25- and 26-stories each with a mix of offices, housing and retail. But with that came the tax increment financing proposal which was met with a lot of push back at City Hall. Clayco is not at the negotiating table and it doesn't appear as if much progress is being made between the city and OGE Energy Corp., which took over Clayco's role in the discussions."

"Here's my honest thought at this moment: I really wonder if the city shouldn't try to buy the Stage Center site and make it the location for the new convention center."

OKC Central Chat transcript, Aug. 7, 2015 | News OK (http://newsok.com/okc-central-chat-transcript-aug.-7-2015/article/5438729)

... having it demolished and a empty lot sitting in the heart of the city is unacceptable.

Hopefully, that's not happening across the street, too. Vacancies are just now starting to tick up again.

Rinse and repeat...

Steve had these comments in his chat yesterday...

"Steve Lackmeyer
‎11‎:‎12‎:‎35‎ ‎AM
When this project began, Rainey Williams Jr. came in with a respectable track record at BOK Plaza and other real estate ventures and OGE Energy Corp seemed like a strong enough anchor to make this project a go. But reaction to the initial development, a mid-rise building, was far from enthusiastic. So Williams then teamed up with Clayco, which proposed a far more impressive development with four towers, 25- and 26-stories each with a mix of offices, housing and retail. But with that came the tax increment financing proposal which was met with a lot of push back at City Hall. Clayco is not at the negotiating table and it doesn't appear as if much progress is being made between the city and OGE Energy Corp., which took over Clayco's role in the discussions."

"Here's my honest thought at this moment: I really wonder if the city shouldn't try to buy the Stage Center site and make it the location for the new convention center."

OKC Central Chat transcript, Aug. 7, 2015 | News OK (http://newsok.com/okc-central-chat-transcript-aug.-7-2015/article/5438729)

Wow.

And here, I believe many of this thought this project was in the bag, despite TIF concerns.
Now, we have SC gone for what is cooking up to be no reason (oh, the irony of it all), and in place for months a shallow pond with fence around it.

We have two issues here:

1. Private developers relying too heavily on the presumption that TIF requests will be received regardless.
2. City code and leaders allowing demolition to commence without any type of accountability.

Yes, I realize this is essentially the conversation we have had over the last six months, but dang. Talk about hitting you right in the mouth.
This was my favorite project out of all the recent ones, finished and proposed. I would still be fine if they decided to scratch buildings 2-4 and stuck with the initial 25 story tower to house ONG, and maybe try to mix in their other plans.

I hate to sound so gloomy, but with each passing day from my perspective, this project is losing its grip.

Wow.

And here, I believe many of this thought this project was in the bag, despite TIF concerns.
Now, we have SC gone for what is cooking up to be no reason (oh, the irony of it all), and in place for months a shallow pond with fence around it.

We have two issues here:

1. Private developers relying too heavily on the presumption that TIF requests will be received regardless.
2. City code and leaders allowing demolition to commence without any type of accountability.

Yes, I realize this is essentially the conversation we have had over the last six months, but dang. Talk about hitting you right in the mouth.
This was my favorite project out of all the recent ones, finished and proposed. I would still be fine if they decided to scratch buildings 2-4 and stuck with the initial 25 story tower to house ONG, and maybe try to mix in their other plans.

I hate to sound so gloomy, but with each passing day from my perspective, this project is losing its grip.

The 499 Sheridan tower project (Devon/Hines) has received much criticism for its design. Let's count our blessings.

Are we ready to say Rainey made a mistake choosing Clayco for this project.

This ALWAYS happens in Oklahoma City

Sigh.... You are right, Bchris.

I am not endorsing how this deal has been done. However, I think most on here are totally un-knowledgable about what it takes to get major development deals done. There are many, many moving parts. I think everybody thinks you just make up a plan and execute it. I am involved in one much simpler than this in a city in Texas. If I recounted to everyone all the different barriers and changes we have had to navigate they wouldn't believe it. Nor would they believe the costs. We have had banks back out at closing time. We have had permits delayed for months for unjustified reasons. We have discovered utilities on the site that the city swore weren't there and we didn't have others in places they were sure were there. We have had review committees make changes after plans were approved. Delays caused by others have caused some who signed leases to back out. And on, and on. We have spent a lot of wasted time and money. And this is something the client and city are committed to do, and the neighbors want it to happen. Imagine if there was dissension or opposition. I understand if Clayco is standing back and waiting for things to clear before getting too excited about doing it. People want to imagine these developers as robber barons but have no clue what they have to go through and the risk they take.

While we want grand skyscrapers of premium quality and can imagine this grand new utopia, developers have to look at it in a much more unemotional and with more pragmatic sense...or they will soon be out of business.

Peace out Rover - Yet another thread I can no longer post in.

That was childish the first time, let alone the 10th time. Go to the corner and hold your breath til you pass out. Believe it or not, every thread isn't about JTF. Hard to imagine.

that was childish the first time, let alone the 10th time. Go to the corner and hold your breath til you pass out. Believe it or not, every thread isn't about jtf. Hard to imagine.
bravo!

Everyone should have known Clayco was very far from being able to pull this off when they came in with a ridiculous TIF request; way out of the ballpark.

Now my understanding is the City is willing to give them no TIF funds at all, mainly because virtually the same exactly project is being built across the street without pubic assistance.

Even when they cut their ask in half, they were still completely unrealistic.

I suspect an office building and parking garage will get built on the Stage Center site, but it will be scaled down from what was proposed.

Pete, with the new tower across the street, the completion of the Parkside building and the 20 story Dowell building being done, do you believe there is enough demand downtown at this time to start a new tower even with some reasonable TIF money? Same goes for apartments, high rise or not. There is a lot of inventory coming on market. Do you believe there is enough steam to actually get a quality development out of the ground in the foreseeable future? I suspect moving the CC there may be the best immediate option, but it also begs the question of how long before a quality development south of the Myriad Gardens can reasonably be expected.

Peace out Rover - Yet another thread I can no longer post in.
Was that all it takes?

[taking notes for future threads]

Pete, with the new tower across the street, the completion of the Parkside building and the 20 story Dowell building being done, do you believe there is enough demand downtown at this time to start a new tower even with some reasonable TIF money? Same goes for apartments, high rise or not. There is a lot of inventory coming on market. Do you believe there is enough steam to actually get a quality development out of the ground in the foreseeable future? I suspect moving the CC there may be the best immediate option, but it also begs the question of how long before a quality development south of the Myriad Gardens can reasonably be expected.

Yes, I believe there is still plenty of demand.

The Parkside is not really even trying to lease their space, probably because of the desired sale by SandRidge. 499 will have little to no spec space between Devon and Bank of Oklahoma. Dowell Center will be aimed at a lower price point (won't be Class A space) and smaller tenants. First National will have little to no office space and is still driving tenants out.

The only real variable is SandRidge Tower.

But in general, there is no decent chunks of Class A office space downtown and there seems to be plenty of demand. It's just that spec office buildings are very hard to finance right now, where there seems to be plenty of money for apartments and hotels.

Everyone should have known Clayco was very far from being able to pull this off when they came in with a ridiculous TIF request; way out of the ballpark.

Now my understanding is the City is willing to give them no TIF funds at all, mainly because virtually the same exactly project is being built across the street without pubic assistance.

Even when they cut their ask in half, they were still completely unrealistic.

I suspect an office building and parking garage will get built on the Stage Center site, but it will be scaled down from what was proposed.
That sucks. I was all for a good TIF (not the crazy ask) to get a high rise condo development done. Someone has to break the seal for that. Even a little for the office tower because it was a great design, but they did over ask.

The way this has been handled by Clayco should tell you a lot about their capabilities.

They a builder, not a developer. Completely different skill sets.

So are we now expecting the original proposal to be back on the table or will a completely new proposal be put together?

The first rendering was never a proposal, just a concept.

I honestly don't know what is going to happen. Not even sure Clayco will be involved.

Yes, I believe there is still plenty of demand.

The Parkside is not really even trying to lease their space, probably because of the desired sale by SandRidge. 499 will have little to no spec space between Devon and Bank of Oklahoma. Dowell Center will be aimed at a lower price point (won't be Class A space) and smaller tenants. First National will have little to no office space and is still driving tenants out.

The only real variable is SandRidge Tower.

But in general, there is no decent chunks of Class A office space downtown and there seems to be plenty of demand. It's just that spec office buildings are very hard to finance right now, where there seems to be plenty of money for apartments and hotels.

Right now certain financial institutions that have bankrolled energy firms have curtailed commercial lending due to the shrinking of the collateral that has been proven reserves. In some cases this has resulted in them having to bolster their reserves/equity. The falling dominoes land on large real estate development loans for projects that aren't significantly pre-sold and ones that rely on leases in unproven markets. Spec office building is hard to finance right now. Much tighter than even 6 months ago.

Does anyone know how many feet tall the original plan for the OG&E Tower was going to be?

Everyone should have known Clayco was very far from being able to pull this off when they came in with a ridiculous TIF request; way out of the ballpark.

Now my understanding is the City is willing to give them no TIF funds at all, mainly because virtually the same exactly project is being built across the street without pubic assistance.

Even when they cut their ask in half, they were still completely unrealistic.

I suspect an office building and parking garage will get built on the Stage Center site, but it will be scaled down from what was proposed.

Pete, I disagree with the bolded part of your statement. 499 is a tower with two massive parking garages whereas OGE was proposed as two towers, one office and one residential above parking, on each parcel - plus maybe a hotel. 499 is better with its height but laughable given you wont be able to see the tower until you're 6 blocks away due to the garages. OGE is better due to the quality of the architecture and at least an attempt to bury the parking and have quality retail fronting the streets; iMO that should set the two projects different and IS a reason for OGE/Stage Center to get some TIF.

Now, should Clayco get their original full or the now half of their asking amount - NO, but there should be some point where the city should allow it in order to get that quality development that completely rebuilds the retail landscape (hence tax district) for the central business district. OGE will completely expand the CBD and immediately enhance it with Highrise residential, street retail, and underground parking; while 499 is just another but completely lesser Devon complex to which Devon should have built their tower originally as planned. Again, my opinion.

Can we rebuild Stage Center?

Wow, so they present grand plans to the City council, which in return got the Stage Center demolished, and now they can even go through with the plans! If nothing significant will be built on this site, this would be a total loss! That's why I really don't follow OKC development that much anymore, getting to be a total joke.

Wow, so they present grand plans to the City council, which in return got the Stage Center demolished, and now they can even go through with the plans! If nothing significant will be built on this site, this would be a total loss! That's why I really don't follow OKC development that much anymore, getting to be a total joke.

The 'grand plans' were only submitted after Stage Center had been completely demolished.

I had a feeling the original four-tower proposal was a little too good to be true, but it's hard to believe they may not even be able to come through on at least one office tower. Hopefully this gets a conversation going at city hall about better accountability when it comes to demolitions. Best case scenario for OKC long-term is if OG&E ends up in the Sandridge Tower. Then there could be a proposal for mid-rise luxury condos fronting the park on the Stage Center site. Something on the level of River Market Tower in Little Rock would be realistic for OKC.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/Duckwings/RiverMarketTower.jpg

It really sucks that the Clayco proposal for the OG&E tower likely won't happen. I was really looking forward to the tower and the impact it was going to have on the skyline. The city could end up in a better position though down the line because Kerry is right; residential needs to front the park.

Regardless of what happens, its in the city's best interest that this property not sit empty.

I will laugh my *** off if the whole west and south side of the park becomes a convention center and parking garage.

I will laugh my *** off if the whole west and south side of the park becomes a convention center and parking garage.

I'd laugh my *** off if the whole west and south side of the park became housing for the very affluent, made possible with huge tax incentives coming at the expense of people that can't afford to live there...

The 'grand plans' were only submitted after Stage Center had been completely demolished.

That's even worse...

I'd laugh my *** off if the whole west and south side of the park became housing for the very affluent, made possible with huge tax incentives coming at the expense of people that can't afford to live there...

Has anyone proposed anything close to that?

Has anyone proposed anything close to that?

Yes... You. You've mentioned several times that the park should be surrounded by housing and you know full well that it could never happen without huge TIF dollars and rents or prices that very few could afford...

Best case scenario for OKC long-term is if OG&E ends up in the Sandridge Tower.

How the hell does the best case for OKC involve a downtown anchor going out of business, 600 people losing their jobs, and an entire office tower being vacated because of it?

Steve had these comments in his chat yesterday...

"Steve Lackmeyer
‎11‎:‎12‎:‎35‎ ‎AM
When this project began, Rainey Williams Jr. came in with a respectable track record at BOK Plaza and other real estate ventures and OGE Energy Corp seemed like a strong enough anchor to make this project a go. But reaction to the initial development, a mid-rise building, was far from enthusiastic. So Williams then teamed up with Clayco, which proposed a far more impressive development with four towers, 25- and 26-stories each with a mix of offices, housing and retail. But with that came the tax increment financing proposal which was met with a lot of push back at City Hall. Clayco is not at the negotiating table and it doesn't appear as if much progress is being made between the city and OGE Energy Corp., which took over Clayco's role in the discussions."

"Here's my honest thought at this moment: I really wonder if the city shouldn't try to buy the Stage Center site and make it the location for the new convention center."

OKC Central Chat transcript, Aug. 7, 2015 | News OK (http://newsok.com/okc-central-chat-transcript-aug.-7-2015/article/5438729)

Here's my problem with this: NOBODY besides Lackmeyer called his track record respectable. He previously did a Class B office project and gave it a new plaza. Wow, we all conceded that. Yet everyone on here called out his minimal experience with actual design-build development.

We tore down Stage Center anyway. As for Clayco, they usually get TIF and why should they build a spec project in one of the few markets that won't give them TIF?? This is insane. Why won't we give them TIF? The Devon project across the street is an example of how TIF could help elevate design standards. Devon is responding to pressure from a variety of fronts by ensuring the 499 project is bare bones to the max.

The city needs to pull its head out and figure out what it's doing here ASAP. We have no vision because we don't plan.

Everyone should have known Clayco was very far from being able to pull this off when they came in with a ridiculous TIF request; way out of the ballpark.

Now my understanding is the City is willing to give them no TIF funds at all, mainly because virtually the same exactly project is being built across the street without pubic assistance.

Even when they cut their ask in half, they were still completely unrealistic.

I suspect an office building and parking garage will get built on the Stage Center site, but it will be scaled down from what was proposed.


How is their half-scaled bargain request "still completely unrealistic"? Have we gotten away with LESS subsidy on other high-rise projects? I'm only aware of Devon Tower and they needed all the surrounding streets and public spaces brought up along w their project. With TIF. A lot of it.

499 Sheridan did not ask for any subsidy, TIF or otherwise.

Even the sharply revised ask by Clayco was unrealistic because they were still asking for far more than anyone had ever been granted, both in terms of percentage and dollar amount.

Their original proposal was absurd.

499 Sheridan did not ask for any subsidy, TIF or otherwise.

Even the sharply revised ask by Clayco was unrealistic because they were still asking for far more than anyone had ever been granted, both in terms of percentage and dollar amount.

Their original proposal was absurd.

Sometimes stepping away from the table can be beneficial for both parties.
Clayco might reduce their ask again, and pressure will build on the city to get at least something other then a generic office tower built. The 4 towers proposal generated a lot of "I'm still sad about SC but at least we're getting a world class project out of it." That could and probably will turn into, "Since you demo'ed SC you better replace it with something better then an office tower."

One of the big reasons Clayco gave for needing the TIF was that they were planning to build the office tower on top of the parking garage and that was a more expensive proposition than what 499 is doing.

However, they have since changed their plans and only a tiny bit of the parking will be under the office tower.

So, their case is weaker than ever. My understanding is that the powers that be with OCURA and the Alliance don't feel they should get any TIF.

Many of you people continue to place faith in grandiose plans for DT OKC development (Towers). I was skeptical from the beginning and was thoroughly derided , but, I know OKC, nothing ever happens as planned. I celebrate when the building is open.

499 Sheridan did not ask for any subsidy, TIF or otherwise.

Even the sharply revised ask by Clayco was unrealistic because they were still asking for far more than anyone had ever been granted, both in terms of percentage and dollar amount.

Their original proposal was absurd.

You're just repeating yourself and not responding to anything I said. 499 is not a comparable project. I wish we could give them TIF and marginally elevate the quality of that gruesome project. Have you seen those bare bones garages for which they want Walker widened?? Devon Tower isn't even...oh wait except how much TIF did that get? :/

What was absurd? Help us pay for public improvements like PARKING and we will build towers? Help me understand where that is absurd and if so what you said about it when it was unfolding and while Stage Center was still standing. We are on the highway, too late to turn around now. The city needs to figure out what is happening and what its strategy is or people need to be fired for this. This is amateur hour.

Do we ONLY use TIF for strip malls now? I'm confused. Do people want to preserve Lake Lackmeyer? Might as well bc we have preserved very little in the downtown core.

I meant their $128 million original TIF request was absurd.

TIF is supposed to be used for blighted properties in struggling areas or those that have unique challenges, like historic renovation or site problems. Not brand new construction on a clear rectangular lot bordering a public park where the public has already invested tens of millions.

And basically, those are the the guidelines pretty much being followed by the people administering the TIF program.

Many of you people continue to place faith in grandiose plans for DT OKC development (Towers). I was skeptical from the beginning and was thoroughly derided , but, I know OKC, nothing ever happens as planned. I celebrate when the building is open.

There have been plenty of people, even before Stage Center was demolished, who voiced concern that nothing would ever be done on the block. Not for a single moment have I ever believed all 4 towers would be built, and I've strongly voiced my opinion that I never even thought ANY would be built.


Do we ONLY use TIF for strip malls now? I'm confused. Do people want to preserve Lake Lackmeyer? Might as well bc we have preserved very little in the downtown core.

LOL, that is hilarious & so true. So much propaganda pushed forth by him to get the Stage Center torn down.

LOL, that is hilarious & so true. So much propaganda pushed forth by him to get the Stage Center torn down.

Propaganda pushed forth by whom?

Do people want to preserve Lake Lackmeyer?

We could add water ramps and a zip line. Maybe this was the project to make KC and Dallas jealous?

To be fair I am sure Steve would leave before being forced to write propaganda, but the story is largely driven by the city council and those who wield influence locally. All Steve can do is ask questions of those in charge.


I meant their $128 million original TIF request was absurd.

TIF is supposed to be used for blighted properties in struggling areas or those that have unique challenges, like historic renovation or site problems. Not brand new construction on a clear rectangular lot bordering a public park where the public has already invested tens of millions.

And basically, those are the the guidelines pretty much being followed by the people administering the TIF program.

What about the unique costs of high rise development?

Again, 499 Sheridan and Devon Tower didn't require TIF money to be built.

neither Devon nor 499 proposed underground parking with tower above, along with street level retail massing either.

neither Devon nor 499 proposed underground parking with tower above, along with street level retail massing either.

There is one level of below-grade parking for this project and the tower will not be built above any appreciable amount of parking,

Also, both Devon and 499 have a similar amount of retail/restaurant space.

Are you counting Nebu/Aravalli/Vast? Or are you strictly counting the faux retail boxes? Or both?

Nebu and Aravalli alone will be bigger than the space proposed for this project, and that doesn't include two floors of Vast, the huge public atrium and the future retail spots on Hudson.

I
Again, 499 Sheridan and Devon Tower didn't require TIF money to be built.

Okay great. Please explain how that's relevant. That's an oil tower. This is a mixed-use tower. Why can't you see past Devon? And that you're propping Nebu (a corporate benefit cafe) and the "future retail spots on Hudson" (LMAO) as a mixed-use component to support this argument is absurd. Maybe because Walmart doesn't need TIF, we should do away with it altogether so that all developments may aspire to the same quality of Walmart or 499.

This whole thing is absurd and shows a complete disregard for two things; 1) getting the job done after we already tore down Stage Center, and 2) perspective for how mixed-use high-rise development really works. To the second point, with this perspective, we just won't ever have any of that, so I guess that kind of solves that problem.

By the way, you will lose credibility if you don't support execution of the developments you previously push. The demo of a modernist landmark was promoted ad nauseum by a deep well of well-connected interests that surely didn't just want a lake there, right?

Get real here, please.

I

Okay great. Please explain how that's relevant. That's an oil tower.

You keep changing your argument. First you just talk about high rises once that is blown up you move on to something else.

Now, i will point out that 499 is not an "oil tower" and you'll choose another bombastic retort. 499 is nearly the exact same development as OG&E: Being built by a developer, with a large anchor tenant and a fair amount of spec space and lots of structured parking with similar amounts of retail / restaurant space. They are also on a very similar sized properties and almost exactly the same height.


I guarantee you that the people making decisions about TIF dollars are looking at these two projects as almost identical, directly across the street at almost exactly the same time, and challenging Clayco, "They didn't need subsidies to do their development so why do you?" I know this because I've talked the people running the TIF programs directly.

That's how it's relevant.