No.

The deal with Clayco is far from finalized. They still have to come to terms over the TIF award, then will sign a redevelopment agreement.


I hate to be negative but I think there is a very good chance that Clayco will never develop more than the OG&E HQ building. Good sources have told me their financial backing has been thin from the beginning and in meetings with City Council, Clayco representatives have openly stated they want to flip property ASAP.

Clayco is really not a developer. They are an architecture and construction management company. This is a pretty big reach for them.

Well, whether they develop it or not, hopefully someone does soon. It's not a very exciting block as is, but it's better than tenants leaving and ending up with an unoccupied block for multiple years. Even worse would be a razed lot surrounded by chain link fences for an extended period of time.

Obviously, all the various businesses on that south parcel are planning to move out soon.

But also obviously, Clayco would not be developing that property for at least several years.

I bet they end up clearing it and using it for construction staging in the interim.

I hate to be negative but I think there is a very good chance that Clayco will never develop more than the OG&E HQ building. Good sources have told me their financial backing has been thin from the beginning and in meetings with City Council, Clayco representatives have openly stated they want to flip property ASAP.


When the rendering of all four towers with the possibility of a fifth was released, it was far beyond what everybody expected and almost too good to be true. It was the kind of development one would expect to be announced in a place like Austin. I was hoping it was a sign that OKC really was about to experience a skyscraper boom like other cities have done when entering a boomtown phase. Unfortunately the original rendering has proven too good to be true. On a positive note, even if only the OG&E tower is built, its still more impressive than the original concept rendering was so at least its somewhat of an upgrade. Still disappointing though. Hopefully at least the OG&E tower does get built as shown and they flip the rest of the land to somebody who will propose an impressive development. Bait and switch is so common in OKC development I won't feel completely good about it until it breaks ground.

Has Milhaus completely walked away? Is it too late for them to possibly get the south parcel? While inferior to Clayco's original proposal, its better than not developing it at all which looks like is the path this is currently headed down.

I hate to be negative but I think there is a very good chance that Clayco will never develop more than the OG&E HQ building. Good sources have told me their financial backing has been thin from the beginning and in meetings with City Council, Clayco representatives have openly stated they want to flip property ASAP.

Clayco is really not a developer. They are an architecture and construction management company. This is a pretty big reach for them.

Just the ammunition bchris needed to continue his ramblings about how OKC is subpar.

Just the ammunition bchris needed to continue his ramblings about how OKC is subpar.

How it not subpar to destroy a world-class historic piece of architecture for yet another bait-and-switch? This is nothing new in this town. It's always the same cycle going back to the Pei Plan.

1. An extravagant, exciting, eye catching new development is proposed on the site of a historic structure
2. The structure is razed amid controversy, but is generally supported because people are excited about what is to replace it
3. The developer has a change in plans, usually because they are unable to finance what was originally proposed. The developer either builds a scaled down version of the original proposal or as too often was the case during Urban Renewal, they scrap it altogether.

This is a very legitimate problem in OKC. It's not over the top negativity or hyperbole at all.

^
A) The Stage Center was not "historic", certainly no more than what it replaced. And the Stage Center site will be built since there is very little space. Nothing indicates that OG&E doesn't need the space; I know several people at OG&E and they need it now.

B) Do you really think this phenonomen you laid out is somehow unique to OKC? Or is it because you have multiple sources that allows you to see beind the scenes here?

C) Your posts are extremely negative and have been so the entire time you've been on this board. You clearly hate it here and its hard to take seriously the few good points you make...Didn't you state in the past you would be relocating by now?

Depressing news overall. We've had a good run. Sounds like the party is dying down.

I do like the design of the OGE tower. It's very nice. But I hope any TIF money is predicated on the construction of the residential tower. I would go so far as to include retail tenants like Target or Trader Joe's or Whole Foods and that the apartments be for-sale units.

If we're going to give them a big TIF boon, let's make this work for our city.

I thought this was too much too soon. Eventually it will get developed. It will calm everybody's nerves when they get a couple of tower cranes in the air this summer.

^
A) The Stage Center was not "historic", certainly no more than what it replaced. And the Stage Center site will be built since there is very little space. Nothing indicates that OG&E doesn't need the space; I know several people at OG&E and they need it now.

B) Do you really think this phenonomen you laid out is somehow unique to OKC? Or is it because you have multiple sources that allows you to see beind the scenes here?

C) Your posts are extremely negative and have been so the entire time you've been on this board. You clearly hate it here and its hard to take seriously the few good points you make...Didn't you state in the past you would be relocating by now?

Stage Center was polarizing but it was very unique and historic. It was one of the few things in this town that visitors would always comment on and say they didn't expect to see something like that in Oklahoma. It could have been renovated into a museum of some sort and been a treasure for downtown OKC - all for less money than Clayco is requesting in TIF funding. Demolishing the Stage Center without proof that the financing was available for what was to replace it was a huge mistake, but it isn't the first time OKC has made that mistake. If Clayco doesn't develop what they proposed on at least the north parcel, I think in a few years a lot more people will be asking "what were we thinking" regarding the demolition of the Stage Center.

Bait-and-switch can and does happen elsewhere, but it would be interesting to see a comparison of developments in OKC to other cities in terms of how the final product matched up to the original proposal.

Just the ammunition bchris needed to continue his ramblings about how OKC is subpar.

You sir are an idiot for saying that. BChris is actually right on the money. Why some of you people just roll over and accept the things that go on here is beyond me. It makes me wonder if you are the big of a push over in real life. He is just calling it what it is and always does. He loves this place as I do myself and sometimes gets frustrated by its stupid decisions and back yard deals that take place. This is just another classic example of OKC being just that- OK. We have 2 different entire blocks that are prime for some great projects. We are getting 2 20 plus story buildings and 3 parking garages between the both of them. A controversial and land mark type building already demolished and several other buildings to be wiped out soon.

My point is that we are not getting much at all for these 2 prime blocks and it is OKC and it's politics allowing this to happen. It's getting really frustrating seeing them back out or cheap out on so many projects. After seeing some of the pics Panda posted on what could have done on our streets for Project 180 and what is actually being done here, it borders on embarassing. Why can't we ever be cutting edge, go above and beyond and make a statement for others who come to visit. We seem to be in a rut where we do things for as cheaply as possible where it looks ok but nothing spectacular- (not counting our one power tower Devon). We know they want that middle finger to stick out among everything.

I think this city needs much more residential downtown. I think their would be a waiting list to live in one or two of these towers. Why they don't build one and see the demand and then begin another if it is full and the demand is there for that? This wreaks of a con job by Clayco by promising too much and then not following through and then requesting a large TIF for the one building. I think they should tell them to go take a long walk on a short pier and open the process back up for a real developer to come through. I now think some home cooking must have been going on for them to get this project. People need to step up and not let these guys keep getting away with this stuff.

The city creates a dangerous precedent with the size of that TIF. The future cost of this will be in the billions. Let's remember TIF basically robs our schools of the ad valorem taxes they would be receiving absent the TIF. Our schools are seeing a lot less enhanced revenue from all of these corporate campuses because these bonds are being retired with money which would otherwise go to education.

And this particular example of a TIF particularly grinds my gears. OG&E is a utility company with a state protected monopoly on delivering electricity to Oklahomans. Their profits are protected and guaranteed by the Corporation Commission. Why should the schools of OKC have to bear any cost for this company to relocate their offices a few blocks? TIF makes sense in terms of "let's be a great city which is unafraid to build big things," but when we start talking about this kind of money... it's just unseemly.

No.

The deal with Clayco is far from finalized. They still have to come to terms over the TIF award, then will sign a redevelopment agreement.


I hate to be negative but I think there is a very good chance that Clayco will never develop more than the OG&E HQ building. Good sources have told me their financial backing has been thin from the beginning and in meetings with City Council, Clayco representatives have openly stated they want to flip property ASAP.

Clayco is really not a developer. They are an architecture and construction management company. This is a pretty big reach for them.

I'm really curious. Was a REIT not interested in partnering up with Clayco here pre-construction? I agree that having a construction company do the real estate managing here is very odd. I would think, given how hot the DTOKC residential rental market is and the north tower already having an anchor tenant taking the vast majority of the space, getting outside investors for the north property should have been a slam dunk.

The south parcel was always very risky from the get go.

It is disappointing that the planners in the city government are not more forward thinking. I think it has to do with the overall political climate in OK. I am hard-pressed to find much that OK excels in when it comes to new developments and providing benefits to the citizens. There is a lot of emphasis on financial frugality, and the citizens are ok with that. Oklahomans don't want to be taxed more than minimally necessary or carry debt for public infrastructure or bold design.

Clayco doesn't profit if the residential towers are not built. TIF is contingent on the project going forward. Clayco is not responsible for the downturn in the market. If the market is there, they will build. If Clayco backs out of building on the city's timeline, they will reopen the process. Then we will see if anyone else steps up to risk investing in residential in today's climate.

The numbers are there for future of mix-use development downtown. Oklahoma City needs to concentrate its efforts on developers who actually want to build rather than 'flip' a property for profit.

You guys act like this is unique to OKC. The fact is you follow OKC development so you know when announced projects don't get built. I guarantee this stuff happens in every city. Dallas had some huge tower announced a while back that is never happening. I'm sure if you researched it, you'd find out that Austin, Houston, NYC, Charlotte, Nashville and just about every city in the US has projects either scaled back or canceled all together. By the way, nothing has been canceled yet and the one tower that we have seen a rendering for looks awesome! Y'all are so negative about everything.

I will be very happy if both towers get built on the north parcel, even if they end up just flipping the south parcel.

I'm really curious. Was a REIT not interested in partnering up with Clayco here pre-construction? I agree that having a construction company do the real estate managing here is very odd. I would think, given how hot the DTOKC residential rental market is and the north tower already having an anchor tenant taking the vast majority of the space, getting outside investors for the north property should have been a slam dunk.

The south parcel was always very risky from the get go.

REIT's are almost always investors in revenue-stream producing properties, not speculators/developers.

Clayco would certainly target REIT's when looking to market the finished and leased properties.

My biggest issue with the TIF plan is that the length of time is way too long. Why are we giving TIF money over 20 years to a developer who is going to flip the property at the first possible chance? What happens to that money after the flip? Does Clayco continue to receive a check for something they don't even own anymore, and which I assume was sold at market value - allowing them to double dip, does the new owner get the check, or does the check stop?

My biggest issue with the TIF plan is that the length of time is way too long. Why are we giving TIF money over 20 years to a developer who is going to flip the property at the first possible chance? What happens to that money after the flip? Does Clayco continue to receive a check for something they don't even own anymore, and which I assume was sold at market value - allowing them to double dip, does the new owner get the check, or does the check stop?

JTF,
You asked the same questions a few pages back and Pete answered it. Not to be an A$$ here, but seems like we have an info overload in progress.

JTF,
You asked this same questions a few pages back and Pete answered it. Not to be an A$$ here, but seems like we have an info overload in progress.

The question Pete answered was where does the money come from initially. Pete's answer was that it is paid out in the years it was collected in the form of a rebate. I don't remember seeing an answer to the above question.

To clarify, TIF's actually run 25 years, the max allowed by the state constitution.

I may have mispoken about how the award is paid out... In a few cases, the City provides the money upfront as a low-interest loan until such time the developer would normally receive it. But for the most part, they aren't doing that any more.

Otherwise it is paid when the development is complete and certified by the terms of the agreement.

Also, typically the agreement contains claw-back provisions in the case of sale or transfer of ownership. The City will be particularly careful with Clayco since their stated intention is to sell quickly.

So based on that and let's assume there is a $100 million TIF. Where does OKC get the $100 million to give Clayco?

So based on that and let's assume there is a $100 million TIF. Where does OKC get the $100 million to give Clayco?

499 Sheridan and the tax increases from the Clayco development itself:

OKCTalk - New TIF district would fund OG&E HQ, convention garage and hotel (http://www.okctalk.com/content/94-new-tif-district-would-fund-og-e-hq-convention-garage-hotel.html)

You guys act like this is unique to OKC. The fact is you follow OKC development so you know when announced projects don't get built. I guarantee this stuff happens in every city. Dallas had some huge tower announced a while back that is never happening. I'm sure if you researched it, you'd find out that Austin, Houston, NYC, Charlotte, Nashville and just about every city in the US has projects either scaled back or canceled all together. By the way, nothing has been canceled yet and the one tower that we have seen a rendering for looks awesome! Y'all are so negative about everything.

That's how this board works. Lack of information always causes people to lurch to overly negative conclusions that are usually wrong (see: Tower Theatre Church fiasco).

I agree completely though, some people cannot handle the "sausage making" that comes with tracking these things. Projects get cancelled, modified, and/or scaled back all over BTW, the tower you are referencing in Dallas is definitely dead, but that's how these things work. Its not a critique on the market or developer.

I think I need to give OKCtalk a break; it has been incredibly downbeat on here lately. Winter blues, maybe?

People are just not used to getting information so far in advance.

Plans always change and they almost never expand, they contract for any number of reasons.

It also depends on where you want to mark your points of comparison. You could say that if Clayco only buildings the OG&E HQ, that would be a huge let down. Or, you could say it's a massive upgrade -- height, design, quality -- from what was originally proposed.

It's all a matter of perspective but also being new to following projects from their very origins, which is a pretty new thing.

It also depends on where you want to mark your points of comparison. You could say that if Clayco only buildings the OG&E HQ, that would be a huge let down. Or, you could say it's a massive upgrade -- height, design, quality -- from what was originally proposed.

True. Even if just the OG&E Tower gets built, that will still be much, much better than the 14-story concept that was originally released back in 2013. I still think any TIF should be tied to the residential tower.

Developer seeks $62 million assistance for downtown towers (http://newsok.com/article/5388863)

The $62 appears to be for the entire site. From the article:


The application breaks down to $22 million for the OGE Energy Corp. tower, $9.5 million for the north apartment tower, and the remaining tax increment financing assistance for the south half of the block.

Incidentally, zero wishy-washyness about the north tower at least in the statements from the Clayco CEO:


Chapman said if the application is approved by the Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust and the Oklahoma City Council, construction could begin on the 25-story OGE Energy Corp. headquarters by May, with work starting soon after on a 26-story apartment tower. He said market conditions will determine when work will begin on matching office and apartment towers on the south half of the block controlled by the Urban Renewal Authority.

That's a pretty significant reduction in the amount requested.

It's back to being pretty similar to what was requested in their presentation to OCURA (http://ocura-ok.org/sites/default/files/files/OCURA%20Board%20Meeting%20Packet%20-%20Final.pdf)

Developer seeks $62 million assistance for downtown towers (http://newsok.com/article/5388863)

The $62 appears to be for the entire site. From the article:



Incidentally, zero wishy-washyness about the north tower at least in the statements from the Clayco CEO:

Good news on both fronts. Smaller TIF and more confidence they are going to be able to deliver. Now let's get ground broken already!

That's at least in the ball park. Hope it still gets negotiated down.


Very difficult to accept their claim they can't make the project work without tax dollars since Hines is doing almost the identical project at the same time and directly across the street.

Told you guys the TIF amount would could down. It's now $62 million for ~$450 project. So 15%ish? That's not too bad at all. It's spilt exactly in half between first two towers and 2nd two towers. I'd negotiate it be back loaded. $25 million for the first two towers and 37 million for second set. Incentitive to make sure the second half gets built.

Especially if the starting point can be negotiated down further, it would be a valuable investment to then up the TIF amount in exchange for more assurances and control over this development. That is a damn good deal, because we all want to see this development built as proposed now.

If we do 499 and then this only gets half-built, the southwest corner of downtown really has not densified AT ALL. Consider that...

We're getting into the right ballpark now. The exact details are important of course, but this number seems much more palatable. I would suggest giving more money to the later stages as opposed to the earlier ones. The OG&E tower should need almost no TIF dollars, but I can understand residential tower #2 probably has significant risk associated with it, and so may need more.

The main reason they are seeking most the TIF dollars for the office tower phase (the residential tower being Phase II) is because it involves building the entire north garage.

If and when the residential tower is built, it will be atop that garage.


Clayco's main argument is they need the TIF dollars to bridge the financing (and cash flow) gap for the parking infrastructure.


I'll break all this down in greater detail later.

Here's a simple breakdown:


$69 million total request (that's about 12.5% of the total $553 million development cost; still well more than any other award by percentage and total amount)

$22 million for OG&E Tower + North Parking Structure
$9.5 million for North Residential Tower

$37.5 million for South Parcel Development (1 office tower, 1 residential tower + 1 parking garage)


So, more than half would be for the south parcel ($37.5 million vs. $31.5 million).

So what happens to the current OG&E building and parking garage? Harvey and McGee is the coolest intersection in the entire state. Talk about a prime building to convert to residential.

So what happens to the current OG&E building and parking garage? Harvey and McGee is the coolest intersection in the entire state. Talk about a prime building to convert to residential.

I kind of remember somewhere that residential conversion was at the top of the list. I agree, I think the coolest view is from the post office parking lot across from the Memorial going South down Harvey.

So what happens to the current OG&E building and parking garage? Harvey and McGee is the coolest intersection in the entire state. Talk about a prime building to convert to residential.

Eh we'll probably demolish it then.

The main reason they are seeking most the TIF dollars for the office tower phase (the residential tower being Phase II) is because it involves building the entire north garage.

If and when the residential tower is built, it will be atop that garage.

I'll break all this down in greater detail later.

We've heard this before. That's why we need assurances.

Since redevelopment of the existing site is all but assured, could OGE not use those potential proceeds to help facilitate construction of its tower? I mean, I'm sure Devon must have done something similar with the sale of its original building providing some sort of cash injection so to bridge its new/current tower/campus.

I could see, again, if the TIF was tied to public amenities and/or more oversight of construction (thereby gaining something 499/Devon will NOT give the city) but we shouldn't just hand it out and get 'nothing' for it in return. I also agree with backloading the south parcel TIF to protect the city in-case it isn't built while also providing incentive TO build.

TIF needs to be used to PARTNER with developers to assure the city gets the best project built and NOT treated as a slush fund to assure developers will be profitable at city discretion and taxpayer/school/libraries burden. ...

I agree Hot Rod - I would like to see OG&E's current building in the hands of the City so it can be sold to a developer who will convert it to housing. Does OG&E also own the large parking garage adjacent to it?

I agree Hot Rod - I would like to see OG&E's current building in the hands of the City so it can be sold to a developer who will convert it to housing. Does OG&E also own the large parking garage adjacent to it?

I'm pretty sure they do.

The county owns the parking garage next to OG&E.

The existing OG&E building would make great housing:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8227/8486821902_529625ed35.jpg

The county owns the parking garage next to OG&E.

The existing OG&E building would make great housing:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8227/8486821902_529625ed35.jpg

Oh, silly you. You made a mistake. You see, in OKC, this is what you were really meaning to say:


"The existing OG&E building would look great torn down and replaced with a parking garage."

Oh, I know this isn't the thread for that. I'll end the 499 negativity there.

Well said

Clever move by Clayco as they tested the waters. They put out a feeler about the initial TIF; then scaled back to $62 million.

I'll end the 499 negativity there.
You promise?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

I wonder if it is possible to add another 10 stories on the old OG&E building?

I wonder if it is possible to add another 10 stories on the old OG&E building?

A developer did this in 1982 with the First Oklahoma Tower.


http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtown/55.jpg
Center: First Oklahoma Tower, Built 1982 - 31 stories; Right: Corporate Tower, Built 1980 - 14 stories

IIRC Dallas developer Vincent Carrozza initially planned 21 stories for the First Oklahoma Tower; seven floors higher that the Corporate Tower. Carrozza finally decided to increase the high by 10 stories which topped it off at 31 stories.

A developer did this in 1982 with the First Oklahoma Tower.


http://www.dougloudenback.com/downtown/55.jpg
Center: First Oklahoma Tower, Built 1982 - 31 stories; Right: Corporate Tower, Built 1980 - 14 stories

IIRC Dallas developer Vincent Carrozza initially planned 21 stories for the First Oklahoma Tower; seven floors higher that the Corporate Tower. Carrozza finally decided to increase the high by 10 stories which topped it off at 31 stories.

It's not quite the same thing to add 10 floors to an existing building compared to adding 10 floors to a proposed building.

It would be great if they would add 10 floors to the OG&E tower proposal.

It's not quite the same thing to add 10 floors to an existing building compared to adding 10 floors to a proposed building.

First Oklahoma Tower wasn't an existing building. It was originally proposed for 21 stories, Vincent Carrozza decided to go with 31 stories. There is time to add height to the proposed OG&E Energy Center.

Just tried to answer the concern that Clayco will probably build one office & one residential tower. If that's the case, they still have time to expand the width along with some height to complete one large office & one large residential tower. Many doubters think that they will not build two office & two residential towers.

[QUOTE=bchris02;864145]It would be great if they would add 10 floors to the OG&E tower proposal.[/QUOTE

It would also be great if I was 12 inches taller, 40 years younger, in great shape and could get a $15 million a year contract with the Thunder. Probably about the same odds.

First Oklahoma Tower wasn't an existing building. It was originally proposed for 21 stories, Vincent Carrozza decided to go with 31 stories. There is time to add height to the proposed OG&E Energy Center.

Just tried to answer the concern that Clayco will probably build one office & one residential tower. If that's the case, they still have time to expand the width along with some height to complete one large office & one large residential tower. Many doubters think that they will not build two office & two residential towers.

I know that about Oklahoma Tower. You were responding to this and thus my comment.


I wonder if it is possible to add another 10 stories on the old OG&E building?

I know that about Oklahoma Tower. You were responding to this and thus my comment.

Correction: You referred to the existing building. Why would anyone want to add height to the old OG&E (current) headquarters?

I addressed the proposal OG&E structure by Clayco.


It would be great if they would add 10 floors to the OG&E tower proposal.

I wonder if it is possible to add another 10 stories on the old OG&E building?

Of course they can, Tulsa's Cosden building began as a 16 story building built in 1918, but in 1984 they added 20 stories to it. Read about it here Mid-Continent Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Continent_Tower)10083

Correction: You referred to the existing building. Why would anyone want to add height to the old OG&E (current) headquarters?

I addressed the proposal OG&E structure by Clayco.

Please see your post number 1443. You quoted this in your response.


I wonder if it is possible to add another 10 stories on the old OG&E building?

Of course they can, Tulsa's Cosden building began as a 16 story building built in 1918, but in 1984 they added 20 stories to it. Read about it here Mid-Continent Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Continent_Tower)10083

The Cosden Building and the Mid-Continent Tower are two separate structures though. The tower is cantilevered over the original building.

I thought a couple stories were already added to the current OG&E building years ago and that's why you can see a slight but noticeable difference to the architectural style on I think the top two floors...