I think someone said in the 499 Sheridan thread that Clayco is already considering scaling back in terms of timing the development of the other two towers on the South end of the block due to the fall in oil prices.

I think someone said in the 499 Sheridan thread that Clayco is already considering scaling back in terms of timing the development of the other two towers on the South end of the block due to the fall in oil prices.

So the north block is still a go but the south block is now in question?

So the north block is still a go but the south block is now in question?

From what I read, that's correct.
Here it is:


Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
Looks like Ben Felder is live tweeting from it again.

https://twitter.com/benfelder_okg for those that are interested in following along.

Edit: Looks like Steve is as well: https://twitter.com/stevelackmeyer
From Ben:
Clayco presenting to committee on its OG Energy Plaza. Has already said lower oil prices will impact timing of some construction.

So the north block is still a go but the south block is now in question?

Steve Lackmeyer posted a quote on twitter that with the decline in oil prices that the north residential tower had now been pushed back on the timeline. Won't be long before it is totally cut out IMO.

Steve Lackmeyer posted a quote on twitter that with the decline in oil prices that the north residential tower had now been pushed back on the timeline. Won't be long before it is totally cut out IMO.

That would be extremely unfortunate... Shall we even begin to ponder what happens if they scrap 50% or even 75% of the proposal (which it sounds like they are starting to)? "Scrap" may be too strong here, I guess they're just delaying right now.

They've got to try and make the North end work more than anything, or at least the two towers facing Myriad.

The Clayco financials have always been slight, which is why they are seeking so much in public assistance.

Keep in mind that an agreement finalized with OCURA for the south parcel (it's still being negotiated) will be tied to certain timelines and expectations. Ownership only transfers when key milestones are met.

However, they could tie up the property for years, as was the case with the old Mercy hospital site before finally being pulled back from the original developer who could not perform, then awarded to Gary Brooks for the Edge.

Clayco originally planned to start construction on OGE, north apt tower by this summer. Now. just OGE tower.


Clayco is presenting plans this morning at Downtown Design Review Committee. Outtake: timeline for apt tower now uncertain due to oil prices


I have spoken to four different developers who are reevaluating project timelines & whether to proceed in light of oil price dropping.


Interesting. Larry Chapman, Clayco, saying design is well underway for the north apt tower. Just 2 mos behind OGE design work...

Seems contradictory. Who would have ever guessed we'd be misled?

^

I'm sure they know that any hope of getting big incentives is tied into the residential piece.

Otherwise, it's just a new HQ for OG&E.

^

I'm sure they know that any hope of getting big incentives is tied into the residential piece.

Otherwise, it's just a new HQ for OG&E.

So, there is a very serious possibility only the OG&E HQ is a go for the foreseeable future?

This is slightly related to this discussion. I have a college friend who's big in development in Houston. Says developments that are even somewhat spec in nature are not getting cancelled per say but delayed at least 6-9 months across the board. If oil prices haven't improved by then, he believes they will start getting cancelled en masse.

This is slightly related to this discussion. I have a college friend who's big in development in Houston. Says developments that are even somewhat spec in nature are not getting cancelled per say but delayed at least 6-9 months across the board. If oil prices haven't improved by then, he believes they will start getting cancelled en masse.

Makes sense. Every forecast I've read so far is putting oil back to $60-$70 a barrel in about... you guessed it, 6-9 months.

Not sure on this, but building simultaneously is probably more expensive than just one tower at a time. Delaying would feel the market and lower costs.

The residential space in these towers is at a high price point for OKC, so it's always been somewhat speculative of what the market will bear. With the leading industry in the city is going through a rough patch, it makes sense for a developer to make sure the project is still viable.

The joke continues for OKC. I had a feeling about these mid rises a while back. We now have leveled a historical structure and we may end up with a mid rise- wow. A block over, more buildings leveled for some parking garages and another mid rise. OKC is OK- that is it. I give up, this is all this city will ever be I think. I think a move to Texas would be wise and in the near future. They do thing right there, build highways, and freeways the way they should be done, not like the ODOT scam. They have a mentality that OKC simply never will have, and that is sad. Enjoy the mediocrity OKC.

The joke continues for OKC. I had a feeling about these mid rises a while back. We now have leveled a historical structure and we may end up with a mid rise- wow. A block over, more buildings leveled for some parking garages and another mid rise. OKC is OK- that is it. I give up, this is all this city will ever be I think. I think a move to Texas would be wise and in the near future. They do thing right there, build highways, and freeways the way they should be done, not like the ODOT scam. They have a mentality that OKC simply never will have, and that is sad. Enjoy the mediocrity OKC.

Go ahead and feel free to move to Texas. You might be very happy there.

I'm getting depressed as well. I've been proud of our leadership and sense of togetherness for many years. Now I am beginning to feel we have some arrogant bullies foisting their wishes on the city -- and going it alone.

There are people in high places who seem committed to reversing the urbanization we have been seeking.

This togetherness could unravel quickly, and if so, it could damage future initiatives such as the next MAPS. People are losing trust in the processes and realizing that us mere mortals have very little real influence over decisions we will have to live with for generations.

There are some people who need to get off their high horse and quit pushing people around. It's bad for the city and unbecoming.

I'll be eligible for AARP membership in a few years. I'm sick of waiting for people in this town to get it. I may decide to move elsewhere to experience the kind of life that clearly may never happen here.

^^ Understand completely. The problem OKC is going to eventually face is people that were here hoping to be part of a city's rebirth are going to become disillusioned by those behaviors you describe and vote with outbound U-Hauls. We've already lost two very well regarded members of this site that could have had a huge impact on OKC. Of course the "Oklahoma Standard" will kick in and the usual 'good riddance' or 'get out' attitude will be displayed toward those who consider leaving. Whatever, I couldn't care less about those people.

The fact is there are plenty of other better developed cities and towns, with more to do, in much nicer settings. It has been discussed many times that OKC doesn't have much going for it as far as natural beauty, but it is relatively inexpensive and seemed like a city coming back to life. The terrain is not particularly attractive and the way the city developed in decades past didn't help much. MAPS is beginning to address many of these issues, but MAPS may not survive thanks to the shenanigans of the people on their high horses. OKC's economy is not recession proof as some have tried to claim, it is just out of sync with other parts of the country and is more vulnerable because of its dependence on one industry despite efforts to diversify even though that industry did cushion the impact of the last recession. But look what is happening now with the drop in oil prices. This doesn't even include the earthquakes people are too afraid to say what causes them and the lack of a natural source of water for people living here. The cost of living in other places often balances out with OKC because of decreased dependence on a car, or multiple cars for families - even though housing may be more costly, getting rid of a car or two offsets a good chunk of that.

I'm not a millennial and I am not a native Okie. I stayed here after retiring because of what I thought OKC could, and was going to, be. The word 'iconic' has been overused to describe nearly everything in OKC recently but it seems like mediocre is what they really meant. Maybe that really is better because the old 'better than crappy makes us happy' was the standard for so long. But between the boulevard fiasco, convention center shenanigans, this development and 499 Sheridan, and the obvious arrogance of those pulling the strings - not to mention the lunacy in the state legislature - I'm not at all confident it is worth staying to see where the city goes. I can easily relocate to a place that is already what I hoped OKC would become and just enjoy living there instead of waiting for it to come to pass here.

Sure I am probably the minority because I have no ties to a job or specific industry, nor do I have family keeping me here and picking up and moving on is fairly easy for me. So in the big scheme of things a few people like me and others on this site leaving won't make or break OKC. The sky isn't falling of course, but I suppose I had such high hopes for OKC, some of the events over the last several months have been very disappointing. Oh well. Fire away.

I'm sick of waiting for people in this town to get it. I may decide to move elsewhere to experience the kind of life that clearly may never happen here.

While the rest of your post was great - this last part is the conclusion I have come to. There are simply too many other places around the world where I can swim with the current. One can only fight for change for so long before it just becomes easier to go where that change is happening on its own. Maybe we have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole after all.

^^ Understand completely. The problem OKC is going to eventually face is people that were here hoping to be part of a city's rebirth are going to become disillusioned by those behaviors you describe and vote with outbound U-Hauls. We've already lost two very well regarded members of this site that could have had a huge impact on OKC. Of course the "Oklahoma Standard" will kick in and the usual 'good riddance' or 'get out' attitude will be displayed toward those who consider leaving. Whatever, I couldn't care less about those people.

The fact is there are plenty of other better developed cities and towns, with more to do, in much nicer settings. It has been discussed many times that OKC doesn't have much going for it other than it being cheap and what seemed like a city coming back to life. The terrain is not particularly attractive and the way the city developed in decades past didn't help much. MAPS is beginning to address many of these issues, but MAPS may not survive thanks to the shenanigans of the people on their high horses. OKC's economy is not recession proof as some have tried to claim, it is just out of sync with other parts of the country and is more vulnerable because of its dependence on one industry despite efforts to diversify even though that industry did cushion the impact of the last recession. But look what is happening now with the drop in oil prices. This doesn't even include the earthquakes people are too afraid to say what causes them and the lack of a natural source of water for people living here. The cost of living in other places often balances out with OKC because of decreased dependence on a car, or multiple cars for families - even though housing may be more costly, getting rid of a car or two offsets a good chunk of that.

I'm not a millennial and I am not a native Okie. I stayed here after retiring because of what I thought OKC could, and was going to, be. The word 'iconic' has been overused to describe nearly everything in OKC recently but it seems like mediocre is what they really meant. Maybe that really is better because the old 'better than crappy makes us happy' was the standard for so long. But between the boulevard fiasco, convention center shenanigans, this development and 499 Sheridan, and the obvious arrogance of those pulling the strings - not to mention the lunacy in the state legislature - I'm not at all confident it is worth staying to see where the city goes. I can easily relocate to a place that is already what I hoped OKC would become and just enjoy living there instead of waiting for it to come to pass here.

Sure I am probably the minority because I have no ties to a job or specific industry, nor do I have family keeping me here and picking up and moving on is fairly easy for me. So in the big scheme of things a few people like me and others on this site leaving won't make or break OKC. Oh well. Fire away.

I completely understand where you are coming from. Having lived in a city that already was everything OKC will become in the next 20 years under the best possible scenario, its frustrating and depressing sometimes to see how the powers that be don't seem to understand it. I am excited about the possibilities for the future of OKC but many times I feel like I would be better of moving back to somewhere that already is everything I hope OKC one day becomes. I don't because of financial reasons and because of family and the fact that I prefer OKC over other places I could easily move. If I could easily move somewhere like Dallas or Denver though I would have a difficult time coming up with reasons not to do so. Many transplants I have talked to feel similar. A lot of people, as you said, will be quick to harshly say "good riddance" to anybody considering moving, but part of developing a growing, thriving city is not only attracting transplants but retaining them.

Despite the negativity, there is also a lot to be positive about. The development in OKC far outpaces most other cities its size. It's real easy to live a comfortable life here with the cost of living and the economic opportunities are really good. As long as that remains the case and entertainment amenities continue to increase, this city should do okay attracting young professionals. Most people aren't as passionate about new urbanism or historic preservation as people on OKCTalk. Despite the loss of the last historic block in the CBD, a tower is going up that most of OKC's true peers would love to have and will enhance the feel of the skyline downtown. An expansive, well-lit skyline is an asset and a lot of people will really enjoy the MBG in the shadow of the new towers. The standard of development here IS increasing. It may not yet be up to par with most other cities buts come a long way since the first MAPS.

What really needs to happen is that OKC needs to establish a vision for downtown and stick to that, not granting variances for anybody who wants them. Shed the "better than crappy makes us happy" approach to development and demand development worthy of a big league city. Use TIF money if necessary to help developers meet the standard (things like parking below the tower). If something can be done a certain way in cities like Louisville, Memphis, and Jacksonville, it can happen that way in OKC. The problem here is whatever the good ole' boy network wants happens and TIF money is used as a form of corporate welfare. Of course I am just one person on a message board and having lived in small towns that have had good ole' boy networks running everything, I am at a realization that there is little that can be done about it.

While the rest of your post was great - this last part is the conclusion I have come to. There are simply too many other places around the world where I can swim with the current. One can only fight for change for so long before it just becomes easier to go where that change is happening on its own. Maybe we have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole after all.

I can't believe I am saying this, but I actually agree with you. I am finally coming to the conclusion that this city will never be what I always hoped it would be. My gf lives in Ft. Worth and I am there a lot lately and love it. I see their DT and the history and new buildings and lots of street interaction, and it makes me look at OKC and say "if only". I think the next step would be for many of us on okctalk to start emailing the city council, and mayor and let them know exactly what has been stated on here. That we all had high hopes but realize it is a lost cause, we are tired of swimming upstream when we can live somewhere and go along with the current. They need to know that many people could be loading up outbound U-haul's because of reasons we have all been witnessing. In fact, I would like to see how many people would follow through with something like this? Perhaps it just might get their attention that people are frustrated and willing to leave here, and for those who live elsewhere and wanted to some back to OKC, they will choose not to.

I'm getting depressed as well. I've been proud of our leadership and sense of togetherness for many years. Now I am beginning to feel we have some arrogant bullies foisting their wishes on the city -- and going it alone.

There are people in high places who seem committed to reversing the urbanization we have been seeking.

This togetherness could unravel quickly, and if so, it could damage future initiatives such as the next MAPS. People are losing trust in the processes and realizing that us mere mortals have very little real influence over decisions we will have to live with for generations.

There are some people who need to get off their high horse and quit pushing people around. It's bad for the city and unbecoming.

I'll be eligible for AARP membership in a few years. I'm sick of waiting for people in this town to get it. I may decide to move elsewhere to experience the kind of life that clearly may never happen here.

Great post by the way, I feel your frustration which I explained in my last post. As for Bellaboo, enjoy the mediocrity that is OKC. I just may like Texas much better, who knows. Sad deal is I am Okie proud and also have been. I have so much state pride, that it's almost not healthy. Truly love Oklahoma and OKC, but sometimes you just realize it is what it is.

Great post by the way, I feel your frustration which I explained in my last post. As for Bellaboo, enjoy the mediocrity that is OKC. I just may like Texas much better, who knows. Sad deal is I am Okie proud and also have been. I have so much state pride, that it's almost not healthy. Truly love Oklahoma and OKC, but sometimes you just realize it is what it is.

Okie proud? Lol. You're the most negative poster about OKC and Oklahoma on this board.

Great post by the way, I feel your frustration which I explained in my last post. As for Bellaboo, enjoy the mediocrity that is OKC. I just may like Texas much better, who knows. Sad deal is I am Okie proud and also have been. I have so much state pride, that it's almost not healthy. Truly love Oklahoma and OKC, but sometimes you just realize it is what it is.

I know all about North Texas, been going down there for over 50 years, and thanks but no thanks.

I know all about North Texas, been going down there for over 50 years, and thanks but no thanks.

I was talking with a guy a few weeks ago who grew up in OKC, graduated from OU, and moved to Dallas. He says there is a very distinct personality difference between his classmates who stayed in OKC and those who moved to DFW. According to him, the two areas, though only three hours apart, have a completely different mindset. You are an OKC person, but soondoc may very well be a DFW person.

I was talking with a guy a few weeks ago who grew up in OKC, graduated from OU, and moved to Dallas. He says there is a very distinct personality difference between his classmates who stayed in OKC and those who moved to DFW. According to him, the two areas, though only three hours apart, have a completely different mindset. You are an OKC person, but soondoc may very well be a DFW person.

This very well could be true, but I've learned many years ago if a person is not happy about something within reason he can change, then don't hesitate.

Not to take away from the demolitions, but if you don't want to live somewhere or want to move because of some buildings being demolished then you have bigger issues at hand you need to take care of.

Not to take away from the demolitions, but if you don't want to live somewhere or want to move because of some buildings being demolished then you have bigger issues at hand you need to take care of.

I think some would say that the buildings being demolished is representative of a prevailing mindset here that could be a valid reason to move. Several of the more vocal posters on this board have already done it. I agree though that wanting to move simply because of the loss of these buildings or because the tower is too short is pretty ridiculous.

Not to take away from the demolitions, but if you don't want to live somewhere or want to move because of some buildings being demolished then you have bigger issues at hand you need to take care of.

The demolishing of the buildings are just the symptom of the bigger issue most of us who are disgusted, are disgusted with. The thing I don't like is that all the major decision in the City are being made by a very small handful of out-of-touch people who are running the City as their own little Kingdom, and the ones elected by the people to protect their interest are afraid of the King. Sorry if this right-winger doesn't want to live in a Kingdom, especially a poorly run one where the public treasury is looted for private profit.

I think some would say that the buildings being demolished is representative of a prevailing mindset here that could be a valid reason to move. Several of the more vocal posters on this board have already done it. I agree though that wanting to move simply because of the loss of these buildings or because the tower is too short is pretty ridiculous.

I know some of those posters and their move had a lot more to do with job betterment than any other factor. Not saying it couldn't weigh as a factor though.

The demolishing of the buildings are just the symptom of the bigger issue most of us who are disgusted, are disgusted with. The thing I don't like is that all the major decision in the City are being made by a very small handful of out-of-touch people who are running the City as their own little Kingdom, and the ones elected by the people to protect their interest are afraid of the King. Sorry if this right-winger doesn't want to live in a Kingdom, especially a poorly run one where the public treasury is looted for private profit.
You probably won't be missed.

The demolishing of the buildings are just the symptom of the bigger issue most of us who are disgusted, are disgusted with. The thing I don't like is that all the major decision in the City are being made by a very small handful of out-of-touch people who are running the City as their own little Kingdom, and the ones elected by the people to protect their interest are afraid of the King. Sorry if this right-winger doesn't want to live in a Kingdom, especially a poorly run one where the public treasury is looted for private profit.

I'd go so far to guess 99 % of the greater OKC populace doesn't care about some king pushing the folks at city hall around. It has little bearing in their day to day.

^
Why do people keep saying this? I can't speak for everyone, but in my case it has very little to do with this one specific demolition and a lot more to do with the process and the direction of the city. You start feeling good about the direction of the city in general and then things like this happen and you're reminded you're still in OKC, and it is still be run by a few oil execs who think they know what is best for everyone in OKC.

They keep saying it because it re-frames the discussion into one with easier pins to known down.

I'd go so far to guess 99 % of the greater OKC populace doesn't care about some king pushing the folks at city hall around. It has little bearing in their day to day.

99% of OKC doesn't care when one gang member shoots another in the face. Doesn't make it right.

All I'm trying to say is that in every city in this country, and probably in the world, there are outside influences that effect municipality outcomes. At one time Chicago was controlled by the MOB, and could still be for all I know. Anytime money is involved, there are influences. And this happens everywhere.

Not to take away from the demolitions, but if you don't want to live somewhere or want to move because of some buildings being demolished then you have bigger issues at hand you need to take care of.

Reading through these comments, I would have to agree with this.
I don't live in OKC, been there more times than can count, and enjoy it when I'm down there. I'm disappointed with how this latest fight went for the Preftakes block, and I made it known.
However, while I certainly understand why people are saying what they are saying (wanting to move to a city that follows their vision, etc.), I can't help but think that some of it is an emotional overreaction. We have to keep composure here and understand that OKC has still put forth many other positives in the last 15-20 years, and it's still looking bright.
Yes, chalk this up as yet another loss of history and another sign of who or what may be "running" things behind the curtain.
But here's the thing: YOU need to do something. Stand up, make your voice heard. Rally together and network. This moping around isn't characteristic of Oklahomans, we have fight in us and I don't like seeing people roll over like this. If that's what you're going to do, please, by all means, leave. That attitude isn't what built this state or that city, so leave. And that meant to be as respectful as can be put, not an insult or dare. If you're not happy, leave, and quit moping around. Otherwise, pick yourself up, look forward to the future and start being more active in what you want to see done.

Channel your emotions towards helping shape the new upcoming Wheeler District, or helping promote Bricktown, Deep Deuce, etc. and asking all the necessary questions you feel necessary into possibly shaping these neighborhoods and districts.

The way I'm going to look at this project and 499 Sheridan (assuming they get off the ground as quick as they've said they were going to) is with optimism because that's all I can do now. They'll be decent (not great) additions to the skyline, density, and overall appearance of downtown.

It's amazing how emotionally attached some of you are to something you have next to zero control over. It's like being married to 2 women.

If we all hit the lottery, we will have the money we need to be stakeholders, and then our voices will truly be heard! ;)

What this city needs is a youthquake in city leadership. We need to elect Millennials to office. I can think of one right now, a guy who is running for Ward 2 against Ed Shadid.

If we all hit the lottery, we will have the money we need to be stakeholders, and then our voices will truly be heard! ;)

What this city needs is a youthquake in city leadership. We need to elect Millennials to office. I can think of one right now, a guy who is running for Ward 2 against Ed Shadid.

This last sentence speaks volumes to how change can occur. This is the first step in the process for change.

If we all hit the lottery, we will have the money we need to be stakeholders, and then our voices will truly be heard! ;)

What this city needs is a youthquake in city leadership. We need to elect Millennials to office. I can think of one right now, a guy who is running for Ward 2 against Ed Shadid.

Won't change a thing.

There's a reason financial crime is barely a slap on the wrist, yet a pound of cocaine gets you 20 years. I'll give you a hint, its not because we don't have any millennials in congress.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

A lot of people here are so wrapped up in their new urban lifestyle dreams they are oblivious to the real world.
Follow the money. He who has the gold makes the rules.

That's not to say everything is hopeless but get expectations in check about what can feasibly be accomplished and what can't.

I've got a few years perspective on most of you. I moved here after living in Denver proper and near downtown Denver for 8 years. At that time, the downtown here was a total wasteland and too embarrassing to show anyone visiting. Actually I discouraged all our family from visiting. We always went to see them and coming back here from NYC, Connecticut, Colorado always caused depression from the return to the reality of living here. Seriously. If my kids hadn't loved their school and if my husband and I hadn't had great jobs, we would have been gone the minute it was possible to do so.

MAPS changed that and I'm actually proud to show people around now and I do encourage people to visit. It is interesting to see the city from their perspective though, since three of my four kids live in Chicago and San Francisco, and my husband's family all lives in NYC. Seeing the city through their eyes is a bit of a reality check. But still, we've made massive improvements.

For me, yesterday was the culmination of a lot of discouraging efforts to keep Sandridge from tearing down buildings, to save the Stage Center (one of the few things that ever impressed my visitors), to see if we could keep this last set of vintage buildings from the bulldozer. Yes, I am clearly powerless to prevent these sort of things from happening and our leadership has no vision regarding demolition and its alternatives. Our leadership is clearly manipulated by the whims of the uber-wealthy in this city. And that's no different from any city. It's just that the uber-wealthy in some cities don't always see things from the same perspective as ours.

But there's one thing that keeps me going. Most of those in power right now will be in nursing homes in 10 years. And there are people waiting in the wings who see things differently. We've had some great changes in this city because of and despite our leadership, and since there was nowhere to go but up 15-20 years ago, we've created some momentum that has attracted people here who might be able to see to what our future could be. I'm counting on our progressive millenials who are engaged to continue to create change. It won't be me, although I've spent a lot of effort working on MAPS and the streetcar, which required it and which will continue to require it. So, for those of you who live here and are unhappy, don't give up and don't get lazy. It actually is possible to create change at a grassroots level, but the steps are smaller and require far more effort. I like Sid's boulder analogy. Keep pushing that boulder because there's a downhill ahead. I'll be applauding from my nursing home:).

Great post by the way, I feel your frustration which I explained in my last post. As for Bellaboo, enjoy the mediocrity that is OKC. I just may like Texas much better, who knows. Sad deal is I am Okie proud and also have been. I have so much state pride, that it's almost not healthy. Truly love Oklahoma and OKC, but sometimes you just realize it is what it is.

Very much okie proud, to a fault at times. I didn't say what I said just because of this. It is actually a combination of many reasons. I do like the DFW area, lots to do, better weather, great flight selections to go anywhere, and just a different mentality. My biggest gripe is that for all OKC has done, and it has changed a lot over the years, it still maintains a certain mentality. It wreaks of mediocrity, cuts corners on so many things that it almost is embarassing. This goes from ODOT, to certain projects. It is almost like they are their own worst enemy in some cases and it is often due to cronyism and corruption. I want this city to be great in a way that I can't describe but in my heart I know it will still be the butt of many jokes and a fly over city for years to come. It will never have anything major or a be a reason for others to want to come here. That is what bothers me, because it doesn't have to be that way, but it appears that will be the case. If that makes me a negative poster than so be it, I am actually a very positive person in so many other areas.

Soondoc, I think you're a bit wrong. I don't really think we're the butt of jokes anymore - at least among people who bother to keep up. My daughter's boyfriend's father (whew!) has credentials that make Larry Nichols look small time. Every time he reads something in the NY Times or Forbes that has something positive about OKC, he mails it to her. She gets a lot of e-mails. Every time I go out of town and tell people where I live they say something to the effect: "I've heard great things about Oklahoma City recently". And almost every city in the middle of the US is a flyover. To be honest, to people on the east and west coasts, Dallas is a flyover. Why would you stop? We don't have mountains or an ocean or any famous landmarks, but neither does Dallas. We're a small city, but many of us want to be a great little small city. And what I really care about is making this a city the residents love. So we're never a tourist destination? That doesn't mean we can't be a place people want to live. There's cronyism and corruption in every city. And as I said above, I really believe our upcoming generation will be far less likely to accept mediocrity. They're here because they think OKC is a good place to live and getting better. The better it gets, the better the people attracted to live here, the better it gets. That boulder starts rolling.

But there's one thing that keeps me going. Most of those in power right now will be in nursing homes in 10 years. And there are people waiting in the wings who see things differently. We've had some great changes in this city because of and despite our leadership, and since there was nowhere to go but up 15-20 years ago, we've created some momentum that has attracted people here who might be able to see to what our future could be. I'm counting on our progressive millenials who are engaged to continue to create change. It won't be me, although I've spent a lot of effort working on MAPS and the streetcar, which required it and which will continue to require it. So, for those of you who live here and are unhappy, don't give up and don't get lazy. It actually is possible to create change at a grassroots level, but the steps are smaller and require far more effort. I like Sid's boulder analogy. Keep pushing that boulder because there's a downhill ahead. I'll be applauding from my nursing home:).

I think the reason so many get upset and want to throw up their hands is because OKC is a place that encourages citizens to get involved, and in lots of ways the average Joe *can* make a difference.

So, people are on MAPS sub-committees, or get involved in Better Block, or go to the charette for the the Wheeler District or just read and post here, and that makes them feel excited and even impactful.

Then something like SandRidge or the Preftakes Block happens and it's like a punch to the gut. Especially because you have hundreds of people who truly are engaged and then in a course of a month, a rich man can propose sweeping aside an entire historic block and then get approval without even breaking a sweat.

We keep thinking we've turned a corner, learned from our mistakes, etc. Then yesterday happens and people on the committees that truly do hold some power don't even put up a respectable fight. I believe only one person voted against demoing the bus station and there were no votes in favor of saving the others? And this time around, City staff didn't even put up much objection or concern; just rolled over on 8 of the 9 buildings.

People should be able to see how that can be totally disheartening, even if you are okay with the outcome.

They keep saying it because it re-frames the discussion into one with easier pins to known down.

Aargh, knock down. You always notice those obvious typos after it's too late to correct them.

It is disheartening, I won't disagree. I felt depressed all day yesterday. But, I also believe that you gird your loins, figuratively, and go back to work. And that work should include figuring out how to get new, younger people on the DDRC. There's not much left to save at this point, but if nothing else, it would be nice not to have to see some of those faces on the committee anymore.

So we're never a tourist destination? That doesn't mean we can't be a place people want to live. There's cronyism and corruption in every city. And as I said above, I really believe our upcoming generation will be far less likely to accept mediocrity. They're here because they think OKC is a good place to live and getting better. The better it gets, the better the people attracted to live here, the better it gets. That boulder starts rolling.

Good points. One thing I always say about Charlotte is its not a tourist city. The city has no zoo or aquarium. It doesn't have a lot of museums and the ones it has are pretty mediocre. Its two and a half hours one way from the mountains and three hours the other way from the beach. The one thing it does have is a Cedar Fair amusement park that puts Six Flags Over Texas to shame. Other than that, there isn't much there for tourists. If somebody wanted to visit the Carolinas I would point them in the direction of Asheville or Wilmington or Charleston SC before Charlotte. What Charlotte is, however, is a wonderful city to live in with a very high quality of life for its residents. A lot of transplants move there unsure about it and then fall in love with it almost immediately and end up staying for life. I would still be there if it wasn't for the Great Recession.

An article I read recently showed that the hipster capitals that are viewed as America's next great cities, with the exception of Austin and Seattle, have a problem. Though they are attracting a ton of transplants, they are not keeping them. The cities that are getting it right include places like San Antonio which is overshadowed in the media, yet like Charlotte offers a great quality of life for its residents.

That is the kind of city OKC should strive to become and could become in the not too distant future.

It is disheartening, I won't disagree. I felt depressed all day yesterday. But, I also believe that you gird your loins, figuratively, and go back to work. And that work should include figuring out how to get new, younger people on the DDRC. There's not much left to save at this point, but if nothing else, it would be nice not to have to see some of those faces on the committee anymore.

Even if there isn't much left to save, that committee could have a ton of positive influence just by insisting on better design on the new stuff that does get built.

Yesterday wasn't just about losing the buildings; it was about what is replacing them, which is equally important.

I think the reason so many get upset and want to throw up their hands is because OKC is a place that encourages citizens to get involved, and in lots of ways the average Joe *can* make a difference.

So, people are on MAPS sub-committees, or get involved in Better Block, or go to the charette for the the Wheeler District or just read and post here, and that makes them feel excited and even impactful.

Then something like SandRidge or the Preftakes Block happens and it's like a punch to the gut. Especially because you have hundreds of people who truly are engaged and then in a course of a month, a rich man can propose sweeping aside an entire historic block and then get approval without even breaking a sweat.

We keep thinking we've turned a corner, learned from our mistakes, etc. Then yesterday happens and people on the committees that truly do hold some power don't even put up a respectable fight. I believe only one person voted against demoing the bus station and there were no votes in favor of saving the others? And this time around, City staff didn't even put up much objection or concern; just rolled over on 8 of the 9 buildings.

People should be able to see how that can be totally disheartening, even if you are okay with the outcome.

This is what I was saying. Combine this with the availability of numerous places that are "done" as Sid said, and looking elsewhere becomes more appealing than hanging around hoping to see the city become what people hope for. Of course everything isn't terrible and the sky isn't falling - OKC has made some pretty big strides since I moved here. But just about anything regular people want can and will be pushed aside or placed behind the things a tiny number of people want at their whim and sometimes without regard for anything anyone else says despite the merits. Simply look at the MAPS3 project schedule and where money was reallocated for another example; and that one involves public money and property.

It isn't just about those nine buildings yesterday - I actually agree with most of them going away for the new project. But I hoped OKC was ready to demand better from developers and the proposal clearly could be better with a little effort put into it. Unfortunately that does not appear to be true and there are plenty of people like a couple of our resident trolls who think it is challenging a deity to ask for them to consider another viewpoint on how OKC develops. It isn't crappy, but it isn't good or great either, especially when taking into account the mass of parking garages that will dominate the entire western end of the CBD. Acknowledging that parking is needed, there are ways to integrate parking into urban areas that actually improve the overall feel of the area with a little effort. These fail miserably on that particular attribute because even though the commercial space was increased a little, it is still probably going to remain vacant and become just another void in an area that should have connected the CBD to Film Row.

OKC is never going to be NYC or Chicago, nor should it ever try to be. But it could become a city that has the best of urban and suburban lifestyles and that is what some of us fear we are missing. I honestly thought the central core of downtown would be rebuilt in a manner that demonstrated the city had learned its lesson with urban renewal. Unfortunately, people in positions of influence continue to think bringing suburban development into an urban environment is conducive to developing a complete city. The truth is there are even some fairly small towns that get it right and offer the same or better lifestyle choices of OKC. Take a look at Saratoga Springs NY for instance; very well developed downtown area that includes mixed use developments, surrounded by walkable neighborhoods, adequate street capacity, and eventually more suburban style developments farther out.

Sadly enough, most people know what right looks like when it comes to things like this. This development obviously isn't it, and that is why so many people that are actually engaged in what goes on in OKC are so disappointed. But what's done is done unless someone comes up with one helluva an appeal to the DDRC in the next 9 or 10 days.

You all have some really good points and thank you for that. One angle I am shocked that no one brought up is this. Have they really thought of the ramifications of having a huge parking lot right across the street from an elementary school? They say that putting the garage under the building is too costly (although it is done all the time in other places), but what would the cost be if God forbid a child was abducted and taken to the garage? To me, that just provides a shady environment that makes it all too easy for some pathological predator to use this to his advantage. Perhaps I am being overly concerned, but how can that be a good thing?

I would hate to be the owner of this project if this was a concern that it could be a danger to a bunch of kids and they have to live with and hopefully pay for damages of a lost child. They could put the garage under the building, and develop or redevelop the rest of the block. Like I said, I pray something like that never happens, but can you see what I am talking about here? I think concerned parents should be flooding the city with call and concerns for child safety. A big parking garage directly across the street just seems like a recipe for something bad. Any thoughts about that?

Elementary schools exist in urban areas around the country. NYC has them on streets far busier than these. San Diego just put one in next to the Padres stadium which has throngs of people and traffic all around.

You all have some really good points and thank you for that. One angle I am shocked that no one brought up is this.

It (the interaction with the elementary school) has been brought up plenty of times, both at the DDRC meeting and in this thread.

I think you guys are delusional if you believe there is any chance at all of getting any urban minded people on any review boards. For every one of us the line behind LN is 50 people deep. That is the realization I have come to and am willing to accept.

Having a parking garage adjacent to the school isn't that big a deal in my opinion, but creating parking garage canyons void of any significant interaction with the sidewalk is a problem. Taking half a block for parking garages with little or no thought to the impact on the surrounding area is a problem. Not even considering alternatives to the easy way is a problem. It is simply very poor urban planning and our people we trust to provide oversight on these developers appear to have failed us. I do not think it would have cost so much more to improve the design that the project would have become unviable. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have our cake and eat it too when it comes to things like this because it has been done all over the world time and time again.

Man, the disillusion are running deep in here.


Why exactly, pray tell, shouldn't the government of the people, by the people, and for the people be within our control?

And why exactly when it violates its promises to produce a walkable, urban downtown environment shouldn't those people be upset?


Go live where giving a damn isn't trendy, for god's sake.

Those are nice ideas and all, but the reality is, he who holds the gold gets to make the rules. Throughout history this has held true over and over and over and over and over again.

I'm not suggesting to not give a damn. I'm suggesting to pick better fights and know when you are going to lose. Set expectations correctly. If someone in Oklahoma with the last name of Kerr, Bennett, Gaylord, Nichols, Kaiser, etc wants to get something done it's probably going to get done. They have the clout, money, and influence in this state to get it done. 499 and Stage Center were always going to be losing battles. Sure you can fight, but the expectation should be set that a loss is headed your way. Then there won't be such an emotional meltdown over it.

The Plaza, Paseo, Midtown, H&8, those are the wins people can get in this city by mobilizing. The scope isn't too large.

Instead in one corner there is a Fortune 500 company that is a pillar of the economy (Devon) and a very large bank (BOK) to build their office tower? Both of those have very very wealthy and influential businessman running them. In the other corner we have a handful of angry people who aren't happy it violates urban principles and they are armed with, what votes?

Did people really think they were going to win?

And yet you say I'm the delusional one.

I'm not pouncing on people. I'm telling them to be smarter and use energy on fights they can win.

Don't forget the context of your government by the people for the people quote. That was spoken in the middle of the deadliest war in American history trying to decide if the government should even treat some people as people. It's not like having a government by the people for the people is even a good thing sometimes, people are generally stupid. It's no silver bullet.

Oh and the North won that war because of the blockades they put on the South's exports, which ruined the South's economy. In other words, the North won because they had more money.

While I understand the appeals of creating urban a building with great urban design principals, I still struggle to see why the old buildings will be missed so much. This corner of downtown is about to explode with new developments and really bridge the gap between bricktown, CBD and Film Row. This is going to be very exciting.

If one could magically restore the entire Preftakes block and having everything nice and shiny with 100% occupancy, would that be preferred over what has been proposed? If so, why?

[On edit... realized this comment may fit better in the 499 Sheridan thread, but the thought experiment is relevant to Stage Center too.

Accompanying question, what percentage of occupancy did the block have before Preftakes started buying buildings and ending leases, and what shape were the buildings in? Don't forget that that block is only empty of tenants and in disrepair because the people who bought it up intentionally allowed it to decay.

nm

Those are nice ideas and all, but the reality is, he who holds the gold gets to make the rules. Throughout history this has held true over and over and over and over and over again.

I'm not suggesting to not give a damn. I'm suggesting to pick better fights and know when you are going to lose. Set expectations correctly. If someone in Oklahoma with the last name of Kerr, Bennett, Gaylord, Nichols, Kaiser, etc wants to get something done it's probably going to get done. They have the clout, money, and influence in this state to get it done. 499 and Stage Center were always going to be losing battles. Sure you can fight, but the expectation should be set that a loss is headed your way. Then there won't be such an emotional meltdown over it.

The Plaza, Paseo, Midtown, H&8, those are the wins people can get in this city by mobilizing. The scope isn't too large.

Instead in one corner there is a Fortune 500 company that is a pillar of the economy (Devon) and a very large bank (BOK) to build their office tower? Both of those have very very wealthy and influential businessman running them. In the other corner we have a handful of angry people who aren't happy it violates urban principles and they are armed with, what votes?

Did people really think they were going to win?

And yet you say I'm the delusional one.

I'm not pouncing on people. I'm telling them to be smarter and use energy on fights they can win.

Don't forget the context of your government by the people for the people quote. That was spoken in the middle of the deadliest war in American history trying to decide if the government should even treat some people as people. It's not like having a government by the people for the people is even a good thing sometimes, people are generally stupid. It's no silver bullet.

Oh and the North won that war because of the blockades they put on the South's exports, which ruined the South's economy. In other words, the North won because they had more money.

This ^^^

^^
The best post in the past past several days.