I explain it as $20-30 million vs. $530 Million. I explain it as the city having no extraordinary interest in developing the area for high rise apartments.

It will be interesting to see what the Parkside building rents for.

It's the first new construction spec office space in a long time.

I explain it as $20-30 million vs. $530 Million. I explain it as the city having no extraordinary interest in developing the area for high rise apartments.
Also 100% on-target.

It will be interesting to see what the Parkside building rents for.

It's the first new construction spec office space in a long time.

This assumes that Parkside will be completed prior to the completion of the OG&E Center...

Hey Pete, care to hazard a guess how many developers in the country that would be well suited to take on this project/site?

I'm starting to unravel the mysteries of TIF #2, which is the over-arching TIF that covers pretty much the whole downtown area.

One important bit of information: There is only a 50% assessment of increased property values due to sales or development where there is no public assistance. This is termed "indirect" increment and at this point the Stage Center property falls into this category.

"Direct" means 100% of the increase in property values goes into TIF #2, but this only applies to projects that get direct public assistance.

I've put together a list of projects that have received TIF allocations but there are dozens and I'm waiting to get a list directly from the City.

Artificially cheap-to-develop land and other sprawl subsidy. The incentives just come in a different form. Come on, JTF. That is DIRECTLY in your own wheelhouse.

I meant, why are they able to attract developers and tenants if no one knows about OKC?

This is from a presentation authored and given by Cathy O'Connor to the Streetcar Subcommittee earlier this year:


Tax Increment Financing
• Definition:
– Local redevelopment technique which municipalities may use to fund specified public and private improvements
– Tax increment financing allows a community to recapture the increase in property taxes that result from redevelopment in a blighted area

I meant, why are they able to attract developers and tenants if no one knows about OKC?

Those buildings are being built by OKC companies as headquarters, or as regional headquarters for companies already heavily invested in the area.

I think it would be more accurate to say "in the past, OCURA didn't do clawback."

I understand they could still enforce the timeline originally proposed by Somerset (Deep Deuce Apartments) and Randy Hogan? (maybe wishful thinking)

I'm starting to unravel the mysteries of TIF #2, which is the over-arching TIF that covers pretty much the whole downtown area.

One important bit of information: There is only a 50% assessment of increased property values due to sales or development where there is no public assistance. This is termed "indirect" increment and at this point the Stage Center property falls into this category.

"Direct" means 100% of the increase in property values goes into TIF #2, but this only applies to projects that get direct public assistance.

I've put together a list of projects that have received TIF allocations but there are dozens and I'm waiting to get a list directly from the City.

Sooooooo, if a property first falls into the indirect increment, does that then make an 80% TIF request actually 90% (assuming a 100% increase)?

I am watching the City council meeting and Ed Shadid just gave a great little speech on the TIF for this project and for more openness in the dialogues in discussion of these kinds of deals. I've never been a huge fan of how he kinda goes against everything but this was sincere and you could tell he was deeply concerned and was bringing up points that have been brought up here.

Sooooooo, if a property first falls into the indirect increment, does that then make an 80% TIF request actually 90% (assuming a 100% increase)?

I'm in the process of looking at this development from several different scenarios: 1) No development (leave as is); 2) Development that is somewhat less than what Clayco is proposing; and 3) The full-blown Clayco proposal.

There are lots of things to factor in, not the least of which being TIF #2 expires in 10 years and that indirect projects (those not funded by TIF) only have 50% of their incremental increase go into the current TIF. So, right now, the $53K per year that Rainey Williams is paying in property tax for Stage Center (all of it is incremental because it was previously a nonprofit and thus not subject to tax) is going half into TIF #2 and half directly to the general coffers, just like all property tax. AND half will only go to TIF #2 for 10 more years, because it expires in 2025.

Also, if anything is built on this block without TIF funds, that means 50% of the resulting tax increase would go into TIF #2 for about 7-8 years (won't be assessed until complete in 2017) and that's all the TIF money that would get diverted. Absolutely massive difference between that and diverting ALL increased taxes for 25 years to the developer.

Almost correct but needs a little updating lol...just kidding , hope all is well

So I've gone through most of this thread, though not word for word, what has been confirmed and what is just "might" happen? OGE is getting a new HQ, that seems confirmed but which image? Are any of the other three towers confirmed or simply speculative at this point?

Nothing confirmed as of yet but the OKC Urban Renewal Authority has selected Clayco's plan (two office towers, two residential towers and structured parking) to develop both the old Stage Center site and the parcel just south which is currently owned by the City.

The City and Clayco are now in negotiations over possible public incentives.

Assuming they can reach agreement, the final development agreement will be signed, final plans for the development would go through design review (likely just a formality) and then they could start construction next year.

If all goes according to plan, OG&E would occupy most of the north office building (on the right below) with some additional space for lease. The second tower would be built sometime afterwards -- as would both residential towers.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/9264d1412690086-og-e-energy-center-stagenew3.jpg

Thanks Pete, I was thinking OG&E was supposed to break ground early 2015 but there's still some wrangling taking place over the TIF/funding and sometimes those issues take a lot of time to work out. You would think OG&E wants to get started on their building...

I can't wait to see this project get under way. I'm into photography so I plan on documenting it from start to finish. Hopefully it ignites a firestorm of development in Downtown

I snapped this pic yesterday while I was headed to the Myriad Gardens:

9683

Looks to me that they've already done pre prep on the site

I can't wait to see this project get under way. I'm into photography so I plan on documenting it from start to finish. Hopefully it ignites a firestorm of development in Downtown

Be sure to post your pics here and keep us updated after this gets started.

Pete, any word on if the north hotel/fifth tower is gaining any steam or was it shelved?

Pete, any word on if the north hotel/fifth tower is gaining any steam or was it shelved?

No, I think they are busy trying to negotiate the public incentives and trying to make their numbers work on the overall development.


BTW, one thing that has not been mentioned is that in Clayco's proposal, they are looking to pay the City only about $500K per acre for the south parcel, when the identical property to the north (Stage Center) just sold for $1.35 million per acre.

So, that represents another $2.15 million in discount / incentive.

..and land across the street sold for $6 million per acre.

BTW, OCURA cancelled their meeting this month so no decisions on TIF dollars will be made at least until their next meeting on Jan. 21st.

BTW, OCURA cancelled their meeting this month so no decisions on TIF dollars will be made at least until their next meeting on Jan. 21st.

Interesting. I wonder if that means there is a huge gap in the negotiations.

Interesting. I wonder if that means there is a huge gap in the negotiations.

Takes a while to get a check printed and cut of the size required.

Interesting. I wonder if that means there is a huge gap in the negotiations.

I wonder if the delay and the supposition that the Preftakes block won't ask any TIF are related. Mental picture of the city saying let this decision wait until it's obvious no TIF is required for the Preftakes block -- then see if ClayCo want's to resubmit their TIF request.

I wonder if the delay and the supposition that the Preftakes block won't ask any TIF are related. Mental picture of the city saying let this decision wait until it's obvious no TIF is required for the Preftakes block -- then see if ClayCo want's to resubmit their TIF request.

Doubtfull

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8569/15419630623_89c62df003_b.jpg

I find it a little ironic that it is taking longer to approve the building permit than was given to solicit the bids in the first place. Maybe the City was a little overzealous in seeking a developer for what might be the best plot of land in OCURA's portfolio.

I find it a little ironic that it is taking longer to approve the building permit than was given to solicit the bids in the first place. Maybe the City was a little overzealous in seeking a developer for what might be the best plot of land in OCURA's portfolio.

They have not filed for building permits yet.

Didn't know where to put this..... So here Stage Center was the 2nd biggest loss for Preservationists in the U.S. this year according to Curbed..... I am sure we could be #1 for cities if the add up the buildings we have destroyed and will destroy in the next few years.... Sandridge destruction, Stage Center, Preftakes block, and Film Exchange building....

Mapping the Biggest Preservation Wins and Losses of 2014 - Preservation Watch - Curbed National (http://curbed.com/archives/2014/12/19/mapping-the-biggest-preservation-wins-and-losses-of-2014.php#more)

Another list. We are popular!

5 Important Places We Lost Forever This Year (http://gizmodo.com/5-important-places-we-lost-forever-this-year-1673978565)

Another list. We are popular!

5 Important Places We Lost Forever This Year (http://gizmodo.com/5-important-places-we-lost-forever-this-year-1673978565)

Well, they didn't update their 'replacement building' for SC with the latest and correct OGE HQ rendering.

And let's not forget this project, the City has requested Clayco to make modifications to their design, and the TIF issue.

What kind of modifications to the design has the city requested Clayco make?

BUMP! Any new info on this project?

The City is deep in negotiations with Clayco on possible public incentives, which would likely include a new TIF district.

Until that is settled, the project can't move forward.

BUMP! Any new info on this project?

I think the OCURA meeting is January 21. We could know more at that point.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8569/15419630623_89c62df003_b.jpg This picture SCREAMS of the lack of density we still need despite all the great development lately. This was most likely a good use of demolition, however I think tearing down historic mainstream and forcing out tenants is a bad use of demolition for "progress".

This picture SCREAMS of the lack of density we still need despite all the great development lately. This was most likely a good use of demolition, however I think tearing down historic mainstream and forcing out tenants is a bad use of demolition for "progress".

This only re-enforces the position that there is no need to demolish historic structures when there is still so much vacant land and surface parking in OKC.

But the residential towers are going to have great views of those parking lots....

i just wonder why we need to have connected parking garages in order for corporations to be happy being downtown. Why can't they adopt the true downtown feel and build UP the city while letting employees chose where to park?

The city should encourage parking garages in EMPTY lots (like the Main Street project, which was executed perfectly); instead of allowing corporations to tear down buildings and get their own exclusive (and connected). I say, if you want connected then bury it underground or have it above ground no less than 2 times the footprint of your tower. This is what I'm waiting for particularly from out-of-state developers, as this is how it's done in other cities so why are they half stepping in OKC?

The Devon garages are ridiculous IMO - even though they do fill the mid-rise nicely but what a horrible waste of space that otherwise could have been reopened Main Street and retail frontage while still having the garages (being smaller and more underground). ... Despite the wonderful Devon Tower, the nearly 3 square block Devon campus doesn't even have enough space for its employees nevermind any expansion in its completed model. Yet in other cities, you can build more than 3 Devon Towers in 3 square blocks and likely have enough parking and retail to make serious cash if executed better than what we have.

Not complaining (as what's done is done) but I hope we get out of the downtown corporate campus mentality (or at least minimize them to no larger than half a square block. ...

You do realize that most of downtown is still in the historical riverbed of the Okla. River. You can't go too far down before striking water.

You do realize that most of downtown is still in the historical riverbed of the Okla. River. You can't go too far down before striking water.

But obviously that can be accomplished if the desire is there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Devon-Tower-03-31-2010.jpg

Sure, you can build a bathtub in the sand if you have the money and desire but why do this when you can build up? Even in your pic, it looks like they've only gone down 1 - maybe 2 floors. Not like the 10 floors Cityplace in Dallas went down. I think that's what a lot of posters are thinking we should do in OKC.

Sure, you can build a bathtub in the sand if you have the money and desire but why do this when you can build up? Even in your pic, it looks like they've only gone down 1 - maybe 2 floors. Not like the 10 floors Cityplace in Dallas went down. I think that's what a lot of posters are thinking we should do in OKC.

No, I don't think anyone here is saying that at all. Most would be very pleased with a couple of floors below ground level and then a few more above ground level before starting the office building above it. Your post implied that the water level would make below ground parking unfeasible which, of course, isn't true.

Sure, you can build a bathtub in the sand if you have the money and desire but why do this when you can build up? Even in your pic, it looks like they've only gone down 1 - maybe 2 floors. Not like the 10 floors Cityplace in Dallas went down. I think that's what a lot of posters are thinking we should do in OKC.I would love to see 10 floors underground, but as ljbab above stated, even if it was two or three, that would be awesome. It would help and that coupled with disguising the buildings as Sid showed what they do in Seattle would go a long ways.

You do realize that most of downtown is still in the historical riverbed of the Okla. River. You can't go too far down before striking water.

No it was not, the river meandered around near SW 15th.

http://imaginativeamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/img_dunn1910_005_fullmap.jpg

No it was not, the river meandered around near SW 15th.

http://imaginativeamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/img_dunn1910_005_fullmap.jpg

I think you two are using "historical" differently. mugofbeer should have said, "the prehistoric riverbed," which was true. Everything south of basically NW 6th Street is on the floodplain, which, in pre-modern times, saw the river come and go with some frequency as it meandered about.

thanks for the assist. :)

New TIF District would fund OG&E HQ, convention garage and hotel (http://www.okctalk.com/content/94-new-tif-district-would-fund-og-e-hq-convention-garage-hotel.html)

So how much will Clayco end up getting?

So how much will Clayco end up getting?

We don't know yet; they have yet to put in a formal request.

But they seem to be first in line for the new TIF gravy train.

Lets just get on with the construction. These buildings will pay for themselves over time.

Either way it doesn't matter because the developers aren't taking on any real risk.

Typo alert. Sheer scale, not shear scale.

So is there anything new to report here?

Was wondering the same thing. Somebody in the Mystery Tower thread hinted that much of this proposal is now in question including both residential towers. What is surely going to get built and what may be placed on hold/cancelled?