^
You say this as if they can change the height on a whim. This is not SimCity.

Clayco, OGE, and all parties involved are working on a set budget. Changing heights involve a lot of complex economics and design changes.

This is a fantasic development and if I were you I would stop obsessing about how the height looks from certain angles. There is a lot more decision making here than this.

^
You say this as if they can change the height on a whim. This is not SimCity.

Clayco, OGE, and all parties involved are working on a set budget. Changing heights involve a lot of complex economics and design changes.

This is a fantasic development and if I were you I would stop obsessing about how the height looks from certain angles. There is a lot more decision making here than this.

Yep. Let's not forget just how much money they will save in construction and planning with 4 nearly identical structures. Glass, Steel, and other materials as well as Architecture and Engineering costs drops dramatically when done this way.

I thought I was also focusing on the untested residential aspect of it and the huge demand for commerical. Sorry if you thought I was obsessing but if you think about it, the total amount of floor space would be about the same. More however could be skewed towards the demand of commercial, that makes a lot of sense to me. What if the residential didn't fill up like the commerical? If the scaled back versions did, well we will have more coming up somewhere soon, like the BT Towers.

As we get closer to November I'm getting more and more excited for actual renderings and blue prints! Is there any real chance Clayco doesn't get the south block also? That would be a real bummer.

I'd guess it's a less than 1% chance they are not awarded the land and development rights. And the majority of that <1% would be them expressing their wish to no longer be considered for the property by submitting a withdrawal.

OCURA will be choosing a conditional redeveloper for the the south parcel in it's meeting next Tuesday, November 4th.

The winning developer is considered "conditional" until all the terms of the redevelopment agreement are finalized.

Would be completely shocked if Clayco isn't selected; from the OCURA agenda:


Background: The Authority authorized the issuance of a Request For Proposals (“RFP”) for property generally bounded by South Hudson Avenue, West Reno Avenue, South Walker Avenue, and the vacated West California Avenue at its July 16, 2014 meeting. The RFP was released on August 5, 2014 and provided 60 days to respond. On October 6, 2014, the submission deadline date, two redevelopment proposals were received.

Milhaus Development proposes to construct a 20-story, mixed-use tower consisting of approximately 300 residential units, 15,000 sf of commercial space, and a 450-space parking garage. The anticipated total cost of the project is approximately $80 million.

Clayco, Inc. proposes to create a comprehensive development in conjunction with the OG&E headquarters development directly north of the site offered by the Authority in the RFP. Clayco proposes two towers consisting of a 25-story commercial building, a 26-story residential apartment tower of approximately 253-units, and structured parking in between. The Authority site would total an estimated $280 million investment and would mirror the development on the OG&E site (with an anticipated investment of $250 million).

Both development teams will have 15 minutes to present their proposal to the Board at which time the Board will determine the proposal most responsive to the requirements of the RFP and will conditionally designate that respondent the redeveloper of the site.

Purpose of Agenda Item: To conditionally designate a redeveloper for the site generally bounded by South Hudson Avenue, West Reno Avenue, South Walker Avenue, and the vacated West California Avenue

Staff Recommendation: Designate conditional redeveloper(s) as determined most appropriate by the discretion of the board.

So were looking at at least $500 million for these 4 towers plus at least another $80 million for FNC (according to posts I've seen about what it would take to renovate it). That's over half a billion dollars in construction and investment starting in 2015 from 2 projects alone.

So were looking at at least $500 million for these 4 towers plus at least another $80 million for FNC (according to posts I've seen about what it would take to renovate it). That's over half a billion dollars in construction and investment starting in 2015 from 2 projects alone.

Announced within 30 days of each other too.

There is something else pretty substantial I'll be reporting on over the weekend as well.

The pace is definitely starting to pick up.

There is something else pretty substantial I'll be reporting on over the weekend as well.

The pace is definitely starting to pick up.

Looks like Steve hacked Pete's account! JK, to both of you.

That sounds exciting! Also looks like I have plans this weekend *keeps pushing refresh*

Looks like Steve hacked Pete's account! JK, to both of you.

That sounds exciting! Also looks like I have plans this weekend *keeps pushing refresh*

Just get twitter and subscribe to OKCTalk notifications! You'll get a push notification on your mobile device the second the OKCTalk.com Twitter posts a tweet!.

Yeah, anything big always gets Tweeted.

Don't mean to be a tease but it's taking some time to put together.

Yeah, anything big always gets Tweeted.

Don't mean to be a tease but it's taking some time to put together.

Is this the Dallas/KC jealous development?

What are the chances Milhaus Development seriously upgrades their proposal?

Is this the Dallas/KC jealous development?

No. Nothing that big.

What are the chances Milhaus Development seriously upgrades their proposal?

They can't without reopening the whole process.

There was a deadline and no changes are allowed after that without notifying all the parties and allowing them to respond.

I hope Milhaus builds elsewhere. In fact, it would be wonderful if the two talk and Cathy perhaps negotiate another empty parcel. Then Milhaus re-evaluate/increase their proposal to build on another site.

Good times in the city!

I'm surprised nobody has posted here since my last post. Is anybody planning to go to the DDRC? Will OKC talk be represented (hehe)?

I'm excited and can't wait to hear the good news. I only hope Milhaus does not take offense and drop OKC from their radar. I hope they can build elsewhere in downtown.

It's not Downtown Design Review; it's OCURA.

I'm sure Milhaus knew their submission was a very long shot against Clayco.

They have been looking to do another project in OKC before this opportunity even came up, so I'm sure they'll do more in town.

An investment group, meanwhile, is buying up properties in the 600 block of W California and W Reno Avenues where yet another development is likely

From Steve's recent article. I know this isn't exactly where this should go but close enough.

Does anyone have any insight about this? Who are the "future" developers?

Development appears aimed at edge of planned Core to Shore project | News OK (http://newsok.com/development-appears-aimed-at-edge-of-planned-core-to-shore-project/article/5363302)

Yes, I've talked to the owners.

There is a construction company that has assembled most of the block and have a modest development planned.

They've asked not to share the details until they acquired the last property on that bock.

It will be nice to see something to happen but it's nothing to get excited about.

I should be able to share more soon.

Good to hear! Anything is better than what is currently there!

I actually posted this on another thread but think this applies here. I really love all this new construction but wish we would not limit ourselves to all of them being in the 25 foot range. They provide some density but not much to the skyline from any distance. You will still only see the Devon sticking out like a sore thumb. Actually, it will now look more like a flipped off middle finger! Why not lessen a couple buildings to 18 stories and add a couple to around 35 stories? This would give us a couple of 600 foot jewels that would add so much more to to overall look and feel of downtown. These would be close to as tall as the Williams Towers and would be seen from long distances for every person traveling through our city. I just can't figure out why we are stuck in the 25 floor range when going up by 8-10 would make a huge difference in balancing things out so much more and be soooo much more visually appealing.

I don't want to make anyone upset because I still think this is huge for OKC but once again it shows that we don't always have the go big or go home mentality. We sometimes do things a little less than what we could do on certain projects, except the Devon, which I mentioned dwarfs everything around it. We need something that will not so much surpass Devon but that won't keep it from just looking out of place because that's the most common reaction about our DT buildings. People say the Devon looks great but you don't notice anything around it because that's about all you really see.

I actually posted this on another thread but think this applies here. I really love all this new construction but wish we would not limit ourselves to all of them being in the 25 foot range. They provide some density but not much to the skyline from any distance. You will still only see the Devon sticking out like a sore thumb. Actually, it will now look more like a flipped off middle finger! Why not lessen a couple buildings to 18 stories and add a couple to around 35 stories? This would give us a couple of 600 foot jewels that would add so much more to to overall look and feel of downtown. These would be close to as tall as the Williams Towers and would be seen from long distances for every person traveling through our city. I just can't figure out why we are stuck in the 25 floor range when going up by 8-10 would make a huge difference in balancing things out so much more and be soooo much more visually appealing.

I don't want to make anyone upset because I still think this is huge for OKC but once again it shows that we don't always have the go big or go home mentality. We sometimes do things a little less than what we could do on certain projects, except the Devon, which I mentioned dwarfs everything around it. We need something that will not so much surpass Devon but that won't keep it from just looking out of place because that's the most common reaction about our DT buildings. People say the Devon looks great but you don't notice anything around it because that's about all you really see.

Why do you keep saying "25 foot" range? 25-26 floors. And that could put them up there close to how tall the Chase tower is. 400-500 feet. If you think that's not going to drastically alter the skyline, then I've got a skybridge to sell you.

Yes, I've talked to the owners.

There is a construction company that has assembled most of the block and have a modest development planned.

They've asked not to share the details until they acquired the last property on that bock.

It will be nice to see something to happen but it's nothing to get excited about.

I should be able to share more soon.

Allen Contracting?

I actually posted this on another thread but think this applies here. I really love all this new construction but wish we would not limit ourselves to all of them being in the 25 foot range. They provide some density but not much to the skyline from any distance. You will still only see the Devon sticking out like a sore thumb. Actually, it will now look more like a flipped off middle finger! Why not lessen a couple buildings to 18 stories and add a couple to around 35 stories? This would give us a couple of 600 foot jewels that would add so much more to to overall look and feel of downtown. These would be close to as tall as the Williams Towers and would be seen from long distances for every person traveling through our city. I just can't figure out why we are stuck in the 25 floor range when going up by 8-10 would make a huge difference in balancing things out so much more and be soooo much more visually appealing.

I don't want to make anyone upset because I still think this is huge for OKC but once again it shows that we don't always have the go big or go home mentality. We sometimes do things a little less than what we could do on certain projects, except the Devon, which I mentioned dwarfs everything around it. We need something that will not so much surpass Devon but that won't keep it from just looking out of place because that's the most common reaction about our DT buildings. People say the Devon looks great but you don't notice anything around it because that's about all you really see.

They have real economic reasons for keeping all the towers of a similar height. It saves them a lot of money on architectural fees. I'm not an architect, but I'd bet it's not so easy to just add an extra 15 floors to a building. You'd have to change the whole structure of the thing.

Also, the taller you make the building, the bigger you have to make the interior core, not only for support but for increased elevator shafts.

So, that means that particularly on the lower floors, you end up with less space to rent out.

I actually posted this on another thread but think this applies here. I really love all this new construction but wish we would not limit ourselves to all of them being in the 25 foot range. They provide some density but not much to the skyline from any distance. You will still only see the Devon sticking out like a sore thumb. Actually, it will now look more like a flipped off middle finger! Why not lessen a couple buildings to 18 stories and add a couple to around 35 stories? This would give us a couple of 600 foot jewels that would add so much more to to overall look and feel of downtown. These would be close to as tall as the Williams Towers and would be seen from long distances for every person traveling through our city. I just can't figure out why we are stuck in the 25 floor range when going up by 8-10 would make a huge difference in balancing things out so much more and be soooo much more visually appealing.

Actually...they've all be in THIS thread.

Post 513

Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
Ok, just a little poll here. We are going to be getting 4 mid rise buildings that look beautiful. Would you all rather have four 27 story buildings, three 36 story buildings, or two 54 story buildings on this site? I personally would rather have 3 towers at about 36 stories as it would fulfill both density and height that would balance out and add so much to the skyline. These mid rises will be in the 400 foot range and will not be able to be seen from long distances or add the height that we would like to see. Just by adding 8-10 stories would put the buildings around 600 feet and that would look amazing. For that matter, just by adding 5-6 more stories on a couple of the 4 proposed would at least put them at or above the Cotter Tower which is what I think really should be done. I am sure they could line up a few more tenants in the next few months to make it happen.

Imagine 4 plus towers as tall or taller than the Cotter and the beauty of their design. That's a game changer, mid rises are good for OKC but I think we could raise the scale just a little bit and it would be breath takingly nice and great for the city. Regardless, I am happy with this project. I just want something a little more grand so when visitors come here, businesses want to relocate, they see what is going on and are literally wowed. I think people will be impressed with these towers but not wowed and I think a little bit of that could go a long ways not only short term but long term. Perception is reality to so many people and they may go back and say OKC has really got it going on. I think we need to consider our company headquarters in this place.

Post 534

Originally Posted by soondoc View Post
What are the odds that perhaps a couple of these towers could be 5-10 stories taller and a couple could be a 5 or so shorter? It would look much better than having 4 same sized buildings. I'd much prefer a couple of 550 foot towers and a couple of 375 than all of them being in the 425-450 range. Do you all think some tenants will come along they will add a few more stories in the end. I think this would be great and the demand is there with the occupancy rate in DT.

Post 539

I totally get it with the residential towers. That is why I think I'd prefer to see a couple of 17-22 foot towers for those and 32-35 towers for the office buildings. I think the demand is so over and beyond for OG&E to build extra. This would allow them future growth or lease out to whom ever they want to fill a few floors and make money from them. Two taller commerical and slightly scaled back residential would test the market for future growth, perhaps even the Bricktown Towers.

I personally think the best thing is two 34 foot towers for commerical that would come close to 600 feet tall, and a couple 18-20 foot residential towers. Those would be a of good height of around 300 feet and also provide density. It would be by far the best test for residential housing DT and could open up a huge BT Towers if successful.

No, he posted it in another thread as well. They aren't all in this one.

I don't want to make anyone upset because I still think this is huge for OKC but once again it shows that we don't always have the go big or go home mentality. We sometimes do things a little less than what we could do on certain projects, except the Devon, which I mentioned dwarfs everything around it. We need something that will not so much surpass Devon but that won't keep it from just looking out of place because that's the most common reaction about our DT buildings. People say the Devon looks great but you don't notice anything around it because that's about all you really see.

These towers, even at 25 floors, will help with that. OKC's skyline looks great right now from the north side but when looking at it from the south or southwest the Devon tower does overpower everything else. These towers will help the skyline from that perspective which is what is needed most.

Nice stalker skills NWOKCGuy! Yes, I've posted on it and I've said I'm still happy with these buildings, just not thrilled. It really won't make that huge of an impact like it would if we went just a little bit higher. People from out of town all say that basically we have 1 tall building in our DT. That is not true, but because the Devon Tower is so much taller than even the next taller building, it appears that way. If we had a couple more 600 foot skyscrapers, the others would stand out more as it would be much more balanced. It's almost like it tricks your mind because all you focus on is the Devon, that was my point. It now stands out like a beautiful structure and nothing around it gets a second look to most. If a few taller than what we have now don't get built, than it will still continue to be the "middle finger" looking building in our DT. By the way, I don't see others cities so overly concerned about the 25 story cost as much as we do apparently. Like I said, scale down a couple of the residential ones that are a bit more risky and save some money and offset it by going bigger on the commericial. It tests the market for demand and if successful, we may end up with the Bricktown Towers perhaps.

As far as the skyline goes, check back in 10 years. If we've got 4 new towers from the OG&E property, another two on the Preftakes block (one about 400' and one at 500', we'll say) and then a conservative guess of a 300' convention hotel over beside the Chesapeake Arena, the skyline will look a whole lot different. Yes, Devon would still easily be the tallest, but from a lot of angles it would blend in much better than it does right now.

Nice stalker skills NWOKCGuy! Yes, I've posted on it and I've said I'm still happy with these buildings, just not thrilled. It really won't make that huge of an impact like it would if we went just a little bit higher. People from out of town all say that basically we have 1 tall building in our DT. That is not true, but because the Devon Tower is so much taller than even the next taller building, it appears that way. If we had a couple more 600 foot skyscrapers, the others would stand out more as it would be much more balanced. It's almost like it tricks your mind because all you focus on is the Devon, that was my point. It now stands out like a beautiful structure and nothing around it gets a second look to most. If a few taller than what we have now don't get built, than it will still continue to be the "middle finger" looking building in our DT. By the way, I don't see others cities so overly concerned about the 25 story cost as much as we do apparently. Like I said, scale down a couple of the residential ones that are a bit more risky and save some money and offset it by going bigger on the commericial. It tests the market for demand and if successful, we may end up with the Bricktown Towers perhaps.

Skyscrapers depend on economics whether it's in OKC or in Austin or in Houston. They also depend on what the developer is willing to build. Some companies i.e. Devon want to go big so they have that prominent place in a city's skyline. With spec space however its all what the developer thinks the market can support.

I agree hoya, it will look better, especially when we get with a mile or so from DT. I don't mean to be sounding like I don't appreciate what they will be doing, but I can't understand why not just a little more height? I mean our little brother down the road has several buildings taller than these and they didn't seem to be so concerned about the extra 8-10 stories.

These towers, even at 25 floors, will help with that. OKC's skyline looks great right now from the north side but when looking at it from the south or southwest the Devon tower does overpower everything else. These towers will help the skyline from that perspective which is what is needed most.

IDK who said it first but we are bascially adding 2 sandridge buildings and 2 oklahoma towers. Both of those buildings are a staple of our skyline. Game changer is a played out saying IMO but these are with out a doubt game changers for okc skyline! :D

Any word on the south parcel?

I actually posted this on another thread but think this applies here. I really love all this new construction but wish we would not limit ourselves to all of them being in the 25 foot range. They provide some density but not much to the skyline from any distance. You will still only see the Devon sticking out like a sore thumb. Actually, it will now look more like a flipped off middle finger! Why not lessen a couple buildings to 18 stories and add a couple to around 35 stories? This would give us a couple of 600 foot jewels that would add so much more to to overall look and feel of downtown. These would be close to as tall as the Williams Towers and would be seen from long distances for every person traveling through our city. I just can't figure out why we are stuck in the 25 floor range when going up by 8-10 would make a huge difference in balancing things out so much more and be soooo much more visually appealing.

I don't want to make anyone upset because I still think this is huge for OKC but once again it shows that we don't always have the go big or go home mentality. We sometimes do things a little less than what we could do on certain projects, except the Devon, which I mentioned dwarfs everything around it. We need something that will not so much surpass Devon but that won't keep it from just looking out of place because that's the most common reaction about our DT buildings. People say the Devon looks great but you don't notice anything around it because that's about all you really see.

Motion to delete any post that complains about the floor count from here forward? This dead horse doesn't need to be beaten anymore.

I disagree, it is not a complaint. I stated in my point of view that I was pleased with what we are getting but wished for a few more and stated reason for it. I am not bashing, making fun of it, or being disrespectful. I am merely making a case for scaling down some and adding more to others which with out a doubt would have added more to the skyline and made a bigger impact. People are free to agree or disagree, but I don't think making a motion to delete these comments is warranted because you don't personally like my opinion which I feel to be quite accurate and on point. It is true that Tulsa has built higher and didn't seem overly concerned about the extra few floors. You can make your point of view to back up or dispute my post, but you don't have to get them deleted when it is valid and a point of view from my perspective. That is called taking the ball and running home because you don't like it.

I disagree, it is not a complaint. I stated in my point of view that I was pleased with what we are getting but wished for a few more and stated reason for it. I am not bashing, making fun of it, or being disrespectful. I am merely making a case for scaling down some and adding more to others which with out a doubt would have added more to the skyline and made a bigger impact. People are free to agree or disagree, but I don't think making a motion to delete these comments is warranted because you don't personally like my opinion which I feel to be quite accurate and on point. It is true that Tulsa has built higher and didn't seem overly concerned about the extra few floors. You can make your point of view to back up or dispute my post, but you don't have to get them deleted when it is valid and a point of view from my perspective. That is called taking the ball and running home because you don't like it.

It's not that your point of view isn't valid but you really are beating it to death in this thread. Do you not think OGE and Clayco would be building taller if it was justified? Why don't you take it to the Mystery Tower thread and speculate on the need for BOK (or whoever is going on Preftakes) to go tall.

Wasn't today the meeting?

I disagree, it is not a complaint. I stated in my point of view that I was pleased with what we are getting but wished for a few more and stated reason for it. I am not bashing, making fun of it, or being disrespectful. I am merely making a case for scaling down some and adding more to others which with out a doubt would have added more to the skyline and made a bigger impact. People are free to agree or disagree, but I don't think making a motion to delete these comments is warranted because you don't personally like my opinion which I feel to be quite accurate and on point. It is true that Tulsa has built higher and didn't seem overly concerned about the extra few floors. You can make your point of view to back up or dispute my post, but you don't have to get them deleted when it is valid and a point of view from my perspective. That is called taking the ball and running home because you don't like it.

For starters it is up to Clayco not any of us.
Second, this topic of boo hoo it's not high enough has been said over and over and over and then over again. It's getting old. The economics don't support it.
Third, its making the board toxic and annoying beyond belief.

-We aren't limiting ourselves to 25 stories. In fact no one on this board or in the city is, it's Clayco. Push them to far and they might just say screw it we won't build anything.
-This isn't Jenga. You can't just add some floors here and take away some here. I know very little about construction but I know some basics. The taller the building the more costs escalate. IE a 20 story building costing $200 million does not mean a 40 story building will cost $400 million. Since the towers are all very similar it's substantially cheaper to build 4 25 stories then 2 50 stories. Or do you want to make the argument Clayco should invest even more?
-No one is stuck in the 25 floor range. It's what the market currently supports.
-Go big or go home is a stupid cliche and no, I would rather not go home. I will take 4 25 story towers and a half billion dollar investment over nothing.

Devon is its own company building it's own tower. Clayco is a developer. Stop comparing Apples to Oranges. If you want another mega tower I suggest you find a way to get crude back $100 a barrel.

Clayco is fixing to invest HALF A BILLION dollars into downtown OKC for 4 towers. Clayco could buy a small market NBA team and a Gulfstream 550 for that kind of money. It is a tremendous investment on their part. Have you seen the renderings? They are absolutely beautiful. For you to state a whiny opinion that they aren't tall enough is ludicrous.

Oil will go back up, I think it has been artificially lowered to decrease gas prices for political reasons. Ok, I will be fine with 4 beautiful not so high rises. I still think you missed my point that the residential are the risky ones, the commercial one's not so much. I feel they could add more to those and fill them up without blinking an eye. The residential is a crap shoot and more risky.

Wasn't today the meeting?

It's at 3 pm today.

Thanks! I was wondering why it was so quiet.

Oil will go back up, I think it has been artificially lowered to decrease gas prices for political reasons. Ok, I will be fine with 4 beautiful not so high rises. I still think you missed my point that the residential are the risky ones, the commercial one's not so much. I feel they could add more to those and fill them up without blinking an eye. The residential is a crap shoot and more risky.

Though outside of Continental Resources there are not a lot of potential tenants that would be needing more than twenty five stories all to themselves anytime soon, so it is even less risky to do another commercial tower later if the supply by these two and any others built in the interim are absorbed by the market and/or work with CR when they feel they have outgrown their current headquarters and are looking to build.

Oil will go back up, I think it has been artificially lowered to decrease gas prices for political reasons. Ok, I will be fine with 4 beautiful not so high rises. I still think you missed my point that the residential are the risky ones, the commercial one's not so much. I feel they could add more to those and fill them up without blinking an eye. The residential is a crap shoot and more risky.

The foreign oil countries can take a hit and continue to drive the price of oil down whether we like it or not. They won't make as much profit; however they can impact prices and production.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/oil-prices-slump-saudi-price-130425607.html#QQRUZuo

It's 4:10. I need to know what is going on here. These are exciting times, the opposite of pickle times.

I also wish Clayco would bump it up to about 35 stories but it's not gonna happen. But even at 25 these are going to add a great detail to the skyline. Then if we can get a few more in the 35 story range down the road the skyline will really look great. It will happen in time. Lets hope that the Preftakes block gets a 35+ story building. OKC skyline will be changing quite a bit over the next 10 years. Can't hardly wait!

Give us a bunch of 25 story buildings packed into downtown tightly and everyone will be happy, I promise.

Downtown Oklahoma City continues to see changes in landscape | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2014/11/04/downtown-oklahoma-city-continues-to-see-changes-in-landscape/)

Up in the air: Authority delays vote on plans for site by OGE Energy tower | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2014/11/04/up-in-the-air-authority-delays-vote-on-plans-for-site-by-oge-energy-tower-real-estate/)

Up in the air: Authority delays vote on plans for site by OGE Energy tower | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2014/11/04/up-in-the-air-authority-delays-vote-on-plans-for-site-by-oge-energy-tower-real-estate/)

How!??!?! Why!?!?!?

How!??!?! Why!?!?!?I have no idea. I don't much about this or what it means, so I'm going to keep my mouth shut for now and let others who know more about it chime in.

In the mean time, maybe Clayco proposed taller buildings ;)

Up in the air: Authority delays vote on plans for site by OGE Energy tower | The Journal Record (http://journalrecord.com/2014/11/04/up-in-the-air-authority-delays-vote-on-plans-for-site-by-oge-energy-tower-real-estate/)

Does everyone on this site except me have a subscription to the Journal Record?

Does everyone on this site except me have a subscription to the Journal Record?

I don't, I just reacted to the headline.

the delayed vote doesn't impact the OGE tower, just the south site?

Oil will go back up, I think it has been artificially lowered to decrease gas prices for political reasons. Ok, I will be fine with 4 beautiful not so high rises. I still think you missed my point that the residential are the risky ones, the commercial one's not so much. I feel they could add more to those and fill them up without blinking an eye. The residential is a crap shoot and more risky.

Off topic, but you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Having said that, I do think it will go back up. If not next year, it will eventually.

I'm interested to find out why this vote was delayed. Hopefully it isn't due to a snag with the proposal.

This also has nothing to do with what is being talked about but I thought I'd post this...I think it's a lot better than the other one I made
9409

This also has nothing to do with what is being talked about but I thought I'd post this...I think it's a lot better than the other one I made
9409

That is just fantastic.

A delay with the vote? Are they insane? Is there a problem here?