Uh . . . no. An actual mixed-use development is walkable.

Throwing a few offices on top of street-facing retail does not a mixed-use development make.

The next few phases are truly mixed-use. I know it goes against your narrative, but Chisholm Creek is nowhere near finished.

The Alamo deal is still on, just taking their time on both sides.

The brand new Alamo in Denton is not a mixed use building. It’s in a brand new suburban style development without sidewalks even connecting to apartments being built across the street.

Yup, and it's pretty suburban tbh. I still like it and it will probably be a similar plan for this development.

I'm enjoying this discussion about walkable and mixed-use development. I'd encourage you to look again at the plans for The Half. It's about 25 acres of surface parking with a handful of restaurants and hotels scattered around the outside. It is mixed-use and walkable in the sense that Belle Isle is mixed-use and walkable if you want to walk across the parking lot between Walmart and Chili's and T-Mobile.

As it stands Chisholm Creek is miserable to walk around (I've tried) and it's not even that great to drive around. The mix is heavily skewed towards restaurants. My sincere hope is that the next phase, the middle chunk of the site, is going to be built out as planned, with smaller tenancy retail and restaurant uses (and apartments, dental clinics, civil engineers offices, etc.) facing on to streets with sidewalks and the parking garages hidden behind. I'm sure there are better examples of this, but if it comes out half as good as Zona Rosa in Kansas City MO we should count ourselves lucky.

Uh . . . no. An actual mixed-use development is walkable.

Throwing a few offices on top of street-facing retail does not a mixed-use development make.

YESSSS.

Chisholm is a MIX OF USES, but it is not mixed use. The development as a whole will never be mixed use when there's so much single-use, one & two story development.

I'm enjoying this discussion about walkable and mixed-use development. I'd encourage you to look again at the plans for The Half. It's about 25 acres of surface parking with a handful of restaurants and hotels scattered around the outside. It is mixed-use and walkable in the sense that Belle Isle is mixed-use and walkable if you want to walk across the parking lot between Walmart and Chili's and T-Mobile.

As it stands Chisholm Creek is miserable to walk around (I've tried) and it's not even that great to drive around. The mix is heavily skewed towards restaurants. My sincere hope is that the next phase, the middle chunk of the site, is going to be built out as planned, with smaller tenancy retail and restaurant uses (and apartments, dental clinics, civil engineers offices, etc.) facing on to streets with sidewalks and the parking garages hidden behind. I'm sure there are better examples of this, but if it comes out half as good as Zona Rosa in Kansas City MO we should count ourselves lucky.

I will say that I was able to walk from the bus stop at Penn and Highland Park to the Top Golf, all on sidewalks, so at least that part is decent.

I will say that I was able to walk from the bus stop at Penn and Highland Park to the Top Golf, all on sidewalks, so at least that part is decent.

Yeah, but "able to walk" doesn't mean it's enjoyable or even easy.

I love how Pete keeps reminding everyone this development is no where near finished but the discussion insists on judging it as-is.

I love how Pete keeps reminding everyone this development is no where near finished but the discussion insists on judging it as-is.

How do you think finishing the development will improve the first phases that are car-focused?

I love how Pete keeps reminding everyone this development is no where near finished but the discussion insists on judging it as-is.

typically it doesn’t make sense to judge a development based on things that aren’t built yet.

you know, because they may not be built.

typically it doesn’t make sense to judge a development based on things that aren’t built yet.

you know, because they may not be built.

Right... It's so much easier just to jump to conclusions.

Right... It's so much easier just to jump to conclusions.

Tyler, is that you?!

Yeah, but "able to walk" doesn't mean it's enjoyable or even easy.

Exactly that.

I walked from Nichols Hills Plaza to Bricktown once. I didn't die, but it doesn't make OKC a walkable city.

Exactly that.

I walked from Nichols Hills Plaza to Bricktown once. I didn't die, but it doesn't make OKC a walkable city.

what??? how dare you say these things!

I went to AMC quail springs today, and saw that they have a Layout of a Bar inside. Feeling the Heat from Alamo Drafthouse that's Soon to be coming?

Most theaters nowadays have bars in them. From national chains to regional/local ones. Been this way for ten plus years now. At least here in San Antonio. It’s a trend that’s been gaining steam the last few years.

AMC QS and Penn are adding bars as is Tinsletown.

I don't think I've seen it mentioned here but my wife said there is a "coming soon" sign on the lot South of Discount Tires saying Pho LIen Hoa, which is good news for Pho lovers.

She also said there is a sign for a second Mei Shi Asian restaurant, which is the new one going in the strip mall at NW 178th & Penn, in the same location. I guess they are hitting the ground running with two locations.

Pho Lien Hoa would not have been on my list of restaurants that were likely to expand out of the core lol. I wonder if this one will also be cash-only?

Pho Lien Hoa would not have been on my list of restaurants that were likely to expand out of the core lol. I wonder if this one will also be cash-only?

I had not thought of that! LOL

Surely they wouldn't go that route in this part of town.

We really wish that Fungs would just re-open Kwans (assuming it hasn't been sold or leased out) with the Fungs menu, instead of the fusion thing. And also resume dim sum on the weekends. Szechuan Bistro is good but some variety in the area would be nice.

This is the area just south of Razoo's that will feature a desert place and a few other small shops, including Chicken Salad Chick. Slapfish had signed a lease but abruptly closed their Nichols Hills location and now seems to have pulled out of the OKC market.

https://i.imgur.com/Dwl7pyX.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/io9QZ0W.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/DDVYIJ5.jpg

Weird to see Republic closed:

https://i.imgur.com/1aF4Zil.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QPHf1kO.jpg

Am I the only one that thinks, based on that picture, that they didn't create enough parking (or the right kind)?

The garage is looking empty and the front is super full....

Weird to see Republic closed:

https://i.imgur.com/1aF4Zil.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QPHf1kO.jpg

I would venture a guess that the only 2 restaurants that make it are Uncle Julios and Chalk.

Am I the only one that thinks, based on that picture, that they didn't create enough parking (or the right kind)?

The garage is looking empty and the front is super full....

I didn't even realize there was a garage, shows you how dumb I am. Though I haven't been over there since Republic first opened, there was always parking right in front of Republic available. That was, I'm pretty sure, before the majority of the other stores were open for business, thoguh.

I always park in the garage, easier for me to get in and out of than the front I feel. Plus I like my vehicle being covered when parked!

Am I the only one that thinks, based on that picture, that they didn't create enough parking (or the right kind)?

The garage is looking empty and the front is super full....

Wouldn’t the fact that the parking garage is empty show they created more than enough parking? What would the right kind of parking be?

Wouldn’t the fact that the parking garage is empty show they created more than enough parking? What would the right kind of parking be?

Every single space has to be within 10 yards of the front door.

Am I the only one that thinks, based on that picture, that they didn't create enough parking (or the right kind)?

The garage is looking empty and the front is super full....

The only reason to use the garage is to access the second floor businesses easier, and even then it isn't really necessary. The idea that there isn't enough parking in Chisolm Creek is comical.

The idea that there isn't enough parking in Chisholm Creek is comical.

Yep.

The parking that is there, though, is designed poorly. As is pedestrian access to everything.

Yep.

The parking that is there, though, is designed poorly. As is pedestrian access to everything.
This. There's plenty of parking, but access and design is terrible.

This. There's plenty of parking, but access and design is terrible.When you're there it's unclear how to get from the garage to the restaurants that face the surface parking.

Parking for the Razzos/Uncle Julio's crowd is definitely lacking. It's always packed around dinner time and nobody wants to walk 500+ yards from the parking garage to go to dinner, much less so in cold/rainy weather.

And that little factoid is why we have so much excess parking in Downtown OKC and still so many complaints about lack of parking.

I think a lot of folks in Edmond are discovering that it's easier (and more fun) to take their Phenoms down to Dallas than it is to negotiate the Chisholm Creek parking garage.

Plus, the Uncle Julio's in Dallas is actually good.

When you're there it's unclear how to get from the garage to the restaurants that face the surface parking.

Um, walk around the building?

Um, walk around the building?

There is a giant walk through by Fuzzy's, so I too don't get what is so unclear.

I think a lot of folks in Edmond are discovering that it's easier (and more fun) to take their Phenoms down to Dallas than it is to negotiate the Chisholm Creek parking garage.

Plus, the Uncle Julio's in Dallas is actually good.
I am having a hard time figuring out if you are trolling or being serious. If it is the latter then I have no words.

I think a lot of folks in Edmond are discovering that it's easier (and more fun) to take their Phenoms down to Dallas than it is to negotiate the Chisholm Creek parking garage.

Plus, the Uncle Julio's in Dallas is actually good.

The Uncle Julio's here is good which is exactly the problem. For the price it needs to be fantastic...

Parking for the Razzos/Uncle Julio's crowd is definitely lacking. It's always packed around dinner time and nobody wants to walk 500+ yards from the parking garage to go to dinner, much less so in cold/rainy weather.

People are far more willing to walk if, and I'm pulling straight from Jeff Speck's walkability TED Talk (https://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_speck_4_ways_to_make_a_city_more_walkable), four things happen simultaneously: "there needs to be a proper reason to walk, the walk has to be safe and feel safe, the walk has to be comfortable and the walk has to be interesting." If Chisholm Creek had been designed on urban principles then you wouldn't be walking through unsafe (feeling), uncomfortable, and uninteresting parking lots. Even Okies don't mind walking a few blocks when they're in NYC. It's not about the people, it's about the design. There are tons of mixed use developments that got this right. Chisholm Creek got it really, really wrong. There often aren't even sidewalks and crosswalks to get you from one area to another. It's really sad to think it's some people's job to do bad design.

Plus, the Uncle Julio's in Dallas is actually good.
So it’s not just me.

So it’s not just me.

I’ve been twice, and both times were miserable enough where my table got multiple meals comped.

i doubt that happens very often at the Dallas locations.

There is a giant walk through by Fuzzy's, so I too don't get what is so unclear.Depending on where you pull in, park, and are going, there may be nothing intuitive about it. Further, one has to assume "I can easily get to where I want to go after I pull into the garage." In no way do I think that when I see the entrance to the garage at Chisholm Creek, even if it is technically true. For example, when you are downtown, and you see a garage surrounded by sidewalk, with pedestrian entrances to said garage, you assume you can easily get in an elevator or stairwell from an upper level of the garage and get back down to the sidewalk and get to where you want to go. Even if that garage has ground-level retail.

Another example, while recently in Scottsdale, we spent some time at Kierland Commons and Scottsdale Quarter. While neither are excellent examples of urbanism, what they did do right is parking. While there are some parking spots on the street in the developments, most is in garages throughout the developments, and by the car entrances you can see the pedestrian exits from the garages. And the garages are largely wrapped in retail. Driving through you see all the stores and restaurants. If you see a spot on the street, then great, take it. If not just pull into a well-marked garage and walk, knowing "you can get there from here."

People are far more willing to walk if, and I'm pulling straight from Jeff Speck's walkability TED Talk (https://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_speck_4_ways_to_make_a_city_more_walkable), four things happen simultaneously: "there needs to be a proper reason to walk, the walk has to be safe and feel safe, the walk has to be comfortable and the walk has to be interesting." If Chisholm Creek had been designed on urban principles then you wouldn't be walking through unsafe (feeling), uncomfortable, and uninteresting parking lots. Even Okies don't mind walking a few blocks when they're in NYC. It's not about the people, it's about the design. There are tons of mixed use developments that got this right. Chisholm Creek got it really, really wrong. There often aren't even sidewalks and crosswalks to get you from one area to another. It's really sad to think it's some people's job to do bad design.

What Dan said...I'd feel better about parking at Tucker's in Classen Curve and walking all the way to Upper Crust than parking at Tract 30 and walking to Uncle Julio's. IN fact, I've made the walk to Cabela's multiple times from the Tract 30 parking lot and it makes me feel like a high schooler for some reason.

Chisolm Creek just did such an unbelievably poor job at planning a contiguous development and the bones are not really in place for these things to get sorted out in the future either.

People are far more willing to walk if, and I'm pulling straight from Jeff Speck's walkability TED Talk (https://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_speck_4_ways_to_make_a_city_more_walkable), four things happen simultaneously: "there needs to be a proper reason to walk, the walk has to be safe and feel safe, the walk has to be comfortable and the walk has to be interesting." If Chisholm Creek had been designed on urban principles then you wouldn't be walking through unsafe (feeling), uncomfortable, and uninteresting parking lots. Even Okies don't mind walking a few blocks when they're in NYC. It's not about the people, it's about the design. There are tons of mixed use developments that got this right. Chisholm Creek got it really, really wrong. There often aren't even sidewalks and crosswalks to get you from one area to another. It's really sad to think it's some people's job to do bad design.

Thank you for sharing that link to Jeff Speck’s TED Talk - I just watched and it was fascinating!

Thank you for sharing that link to Jeff Speck’s TED Talk - I just watched and it was fascinating!

I'm currently making my way through "Walkable City Rules" by Jeff Speck and it's an excellent book, I highly recommend it if you're interested in the topic.

On the topic of this thread, Chisholm Creek has absolutely botched the walkability factor thus far and I don't think there's any good way for them to fix anything to the east of Highland Park Drive. They still have plenty of open land south of the Argon Apartments to work with but nothing I've seen so far gives me much confidence that the other areas of this development will end up much better.

I’ve heard some Credible Rumors that The HSRG is looking at opening multiple concepts in Chisholm Creek.

Sort of odd, though, because Hal doesn’t normally make mistakes on Real Estate.

Why would HSRG be making a mistake opening concepts in Chisholm Creek? They don't have anything in that area, but it would be smart for them to do so, depending on the concept they wish to open.

Why would HSRG be making a mistake opening concepts in Chisholm Creek? They don't have anything in that area, but it would be smart for them to do so, depending on the concept they wish to open.

Why pay $35/sqft in annual face rent if you know your concept is good enough to drive the kind of traffic that delivers outsized Returns? Just seems like a departure from what has worked so well—for many years now.

A Neighborhood Jam is going to be a cash cow in almost every part of the Metro.

That building is interesting and has some cool features but as other have stated the parking lots, lack of connectivity, and suburban feel top golf/cabelas mixed with tract 23 and the lake. It’s just a mess.

Still love a lot of places over there though

They need to preserve ROW for elevated light rail through this development into Quail Spring that connects to OKC.

It's not just the building where Republic used to be that might be attractive to HSRG. There are also a lot of parcels of land that currently have NO building. I could see HSRG maybe taking some of their rising concepts in Norman and plopping them in Chisholm Creek.

For instance, the Winston could go into where Republic used to be; or their new pizza concept might get its own building.

That building is interesting and has some cool features but as other have stated the parking lots, lack of connectivity, and suburban feel top golf/cabelas mixed with tract 23 and the lake. It’s just a mess.

Still love a lot of places over there though

Yeah, this development really has not lived up to the original hype. I am glad I am not the only one that thinks so. I'd rather walk from McNellie's to the Peak, than from Cabellas to Top Golf.

The walkability and parking argument is comical. Jeff Speck is out of touch with reality comparing his suggestions to a development flung on the outer perimeter of OKC makes no sense. People will walk when there is demand, not because they feel good walking. The same people complaining here about not feeling safe or Chisholm Creek being walkable from the parking garage are just making up excuses and likely the same folks who just don't want to talk in general. We see this as proof in Plaza District thread where people complain about lack of parking there though the area feels rather walkable.

Chisholm Creek is barely halfway finished. Renderings and site plans have been available for years and so far the development has pretty much been built as planned and it was always known the suburban aspect of it was the first to be built. If anything they have improved the development if the new proposals like office and retail buildings on the east side go through.

It seems like there something more about Republic as every time I went it was somewhat busy at minimum.

Lol. Good lord this thread is full of haters. I have been to Chisholm Creek many times, during the week and on the weekends. Not one single time have I ever had any issue finding a parking spot for any place in Tract 30 or over by Uncle Julio's/Razoo's/Chalk/Thunderbird. And, every time I've ever been to either area it is always vibrant, busy, and there's always parking available.

Best I can tell from the 'non-ultra urbanist development nerd' perspective, Chisholm Creek is a great development so far and based on the fact that I've never seen it even halfway dead on any night I've been there, it seems the place isn't suffering from any sort of lack of business. In fact, when I heard about Republic closing I was pretty shocked and couldn't help but wonder what circumstances led to its demise, because I would never have thought it was lack of business.

Isn’t the real walkable, higher density urbanist style development planned for the west side of the development...hotel, housing, retail, all in a more urban style?

While the west side was always designed to be more walkable than what has currently been developed, they made absolutely zero active decisions to promote walkability:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6036584,-97.5351139,88m/data=!3m1!1e3

How much faith should one have if a developer can't make the easy decision to extend the sidewalk into either of the first two phases of this development? Why put those sidewalks in at all if they're going to be completely useless? The sidewalk coming out of Top Golf that terminates 20 feet before reaching the Pawnee Drive sidewalks might be one of the single dumbest things I have ever seen in my entire life.

^^^ I agree with you about the disjointed sidewalks but I highly doubt that would prevent the complaints in this thread. It mostly seems to be about the big box large parking lots which were always in the plans. I can’t think of a single plan in Oklahoma where an urban development like what is proposed for Oak and Chisholm Creek currently exists and I’m willing to bet the phase one focuses on what is safe before taking a risk.

I just wish they would hurry up.

^^^ I agree with you about the disjointed sidewalks but I highly doubt that would prevent the complaints in this thread. It mostly seems to be about the big box large parking lots which were always in the plans. I can’t think of a single plan in Oklahoma where an urban development like what is proposed for Oak and Chisholm Creek currently exists and I’m willing to bet the phase one focuses on what is safe before taking a risk.

I just wish they would hurry up.

The lack of connecting sidewalks is pretty high on my list of complaints. Not sure how they claim they are making a walkable development with no sidewalks or crosswalks.