Yes, pretty much every place at Chisholm always seems to be really busy.

I go a great deal because it's the perfect place to meet friends and family who live far north or in Edmond.

Yes, this phase is very similar to Penn Central, in size, scope and density.

And you won't be able to easily walk from PC to Penn Square or 50 Penn.

This reminds me of a few summers ago when my little girl was at day camp at Temple B'nai Israel (which, for those not familiar, is on Penn just south of 50th). One day they announced they were going to WALK the children over to the mall to see a movie. Distance-wise, it was nothing. Logistically, though, it scared me half to death, knowing what a cluster that intersection is.

It sure would be nice for that area to be more walkable!

Anyone else find it odd Carol Hefner made what I believe to be a "press release" of sorts on a FB comment for Chisholm Creek about the biggest most super wonderful incredible development ever in Oklahoma?

Perhaps my bias of her based on her past political actions made me read her comment wrong but I think it came off pretty cheesy.

Facebook Post:
Carol Hefner Love CC but get ready! Largest commercial development in Oklahoma is coming soon. 265 acre development called Mustang Creek that will rival those across the nation in scope and design.

Anyone else find it odd Carol Hefner made what I believe to be a "press release" of sorts on a FB comment for Chisholm Creek about the biggest most super wonderful incredible development ever in Oklahoma?

Perhaps my bias of her based on her past political actions made me read her comment wrong but I think it came off pretty cheesy.

Facebook Post:
Carol Hefner Love CC but get ready! Largest commercial development in Oklahoma is coming soon. 265 acre development called Mustang Creek that will rival those across the nation in scope and design.

I have never heard of this development.

I have never heard of this development.

https://www.theyukonreview.com/2018/10/18/mustang-creek-crossing/

All i could find

This is what she's talking about:

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=43143

She is friends with the developer.

Anyone else find it odd Carol Hefner made what I believe to be a "press release" of sorts on a FB comment for Chisholm Creek about the biggest most super wonderful incredible development ever in Oklahoma?

Perhaps my bias of her based on her past political actions made me read her comment wrong but I think it came off pretty cheesy.

Facebook Post:
Carol Hefner Love CC but get ready! Largest commercial development in Oklahoma is coming soon. 265 acre development called Mustang Creek that will rival those across the nation in scope and design.

Carol's father is Sam Coury, who has many real estate holdings (including Spaghetti Warehouse), and develops projects . My guess would be that she is talking about something Sam is planning on doing.

^

It's Sam's property.

Carol used to live in my neighborhood. Her prescence on our social media page was quite entertaining.

This is what she's talking about:

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=43143

She is friends with the developer.

IMO this is awful. Surrounded by houses and split by Turnpike? I counted 6 fast food places along north and east roads thats a nice welcome lol. Surrounds school.

I think Chisholm is much better placed no houses except at southern end which will not be impacted much. No fast food its all much better venues than anywhere.

I’m sure there is a market to tap there but I hate the layout.

Pete, I totally agree.

My only point is, if you look at the first photo in this article the density is equal that that of Penn Central. While I agree the rest of the development is not as dense, my comment is to phase 2 alone, not the entire development because (as you pointed out), the rest of the development is purely speculative. If you judge Penn Central to purely phase 2, the similarity is striking. It just seems to me developments are more judged by proximity to the core than they are on true quality..

To the comments that’s its just another suburban development.. you’re right. It is suburban. It’s not on 10th street..it’s in far north OKC.. that being said it raises the bar of prior suburban developments and deserves credit where it’s due.

You have to admit as compared to the original post in this thread it has gone from something really cool and impressive to something that looks much more like any other large commercial development on a quarter section. I'm also disappointed that the majority of the vendors are chains. They haven't even made a real attempt to make the various as built sections walkable to each other, hopefully this will be improved but with the seas of surface parking I have my doubts.

I think Chisholm is much better placed no houses except at southern end which will not be impacted much. No fast food its all much better venues than anywhere.

CC has Potbelly's, Starbucks, Fuzzy's, and Torchy's, which are all fast food. Not saying there is anything wrong with that, just that it does have fast food and I'm sure will add more.

CC has Potbelly's, Starbucks, Fuzzy's, and Torchy's, which are all fast food. Not saying there is anything wrong with that, just that it does have fast food and I'm sure will add more.

Those are all Quick Service (order at the counter) which is not the same as Fast Food, with the possible exception of Starbuck's.

Those are all Quick Service (order at the counter) which is not the same as Fast Food, with the possible exception of Starbuck's.

I'd probably put Potbelly's in the fast food, but that is only due to the drive-thru. The other's including Starbucks are either quick service or specialty, non of which are negatives for the CC development. Now if they start throwing the arches and king around, it will greatly diminish the area for me. Seeing the work they have put in and the plans they have, I would seriously doubt that is a concern worth having though at this point.

CC has Potbelly's, Starbucks, Fuzzy's, and Torchy's, which are all fast food. Not saying there is anything wrong with that, just that it does have fast food and I'm sure will add more.

Depends on the quality of fast food places. These are, for the most part, quality fast food/quick service places. The restaurants here are quality, and new to market. Phase 2 has a chance to be transformative. Sure, phase 1 was not great, but don't let great be the enemy of good.

No I totally disagree. If you look back at the very first post from 2014 section 2 and 3 on the rendering we’re blank areas of grass. Section 3 is now phase 2 and section 2 encompasses the area around Top Golf which will be about a ~7 story Apex building and another 4 story building between Tract 30 and Costco off Western. The new renderings are far more dense and exciting than the original concept.

The majority of Chisholm Creek are regional not “chain”. That’s not to mention originals such as Chalk, Birra Birra, Bibi’s, Ganache. The only truly chain restaurants are new to market places that are a first for OKC. I stand by my first comment that Chisholm Creek is judged by location and not quality. There seems to be such an underlying distaste for memorial that it’s over powers anything Chisholm Creek can do. I mean look at the positive response Nichols Hills plaza/Classen Curve has had and tell me how many of their vendors are chains..? And how walkable is it..?

I got to say that CC matches what I have seen in PA the past year or two. They have been building these developments with such a fury it's crazy. On thing that CC doesn't have yet that I have seen in the similar type projects in PA is that they all included either Whole Foods or Wegman's and usually a Target is close by. I know CC has Cabela's and Costco is across the street, but I think having a Whole Foods or upper scale grocer such as Wegman's would be awesome. Most of the developments in PA have these regional chains, most have Hopdoddy or Burger Shack and similar type stuff.

No I totally disagree. If you look back at the very first post from 2014 section 2 and 3 on the rendering we’re blank areas of grass. Section 3 is now phase 2 and section 2 encompasses the area around Top Golf which will be about a ~7 story Apex building and another 4 story building between Tract 30 and Costco off Western. The new renderings are far more dense and exciting than the original concept.

The majority of Chisholm Creek are regional not “chain”. That’s not to mention originals such as Chalk, Birra Birra, Bibi’s, Ganache. The only truly chain restaurants are new to market places that are a first for OKC. I stand by my first comment that Chisholm Creek is judged by location and not quality. There seems to be such an underlying distaste for memorial that it’s over powers anything Chisholm Creek can do. I mean look at the positive response Nichols Hills plaza/Classen Curve has had and tell me how many of their vendors are chains..? And how walkable is it..?

I'm not biased against that area, I'm over there all the time. I also live in North Edmond, so I am not against the burbs. I am still holding out hope for when it is complete it'll be closer to what I originally imagined, but right now it isn't. I really don't think you'll ever find a post of mine singing the praises of Classen Curve, either. IIRC, it was sold as being a mini-downtown area and it definitely doesn't seem like it'll end up there.

I understand people being excited for a new to the market chain, I am sure people were thrilled when we got our first Outback and Red Lobster too.

That being said, I am not saying it is a bad development, I still think it is a nice development. But it is just like any number of suburban developments you'd find all over the DFW metro, not a mini-urban district, IMHO.

Edit: I am probably being too harsh about the chain thing. I don't mind regional chains, and there are many regional chains and a few one-offs in there. Expecting 100% local is a unrealistic expectation.

Those are all Quick Service (order at the counter) which is not the same as Fast Food, with the possible exception of Starbuck's.

So trendy fast food? Socially acceptable fast food? Expensive fast food? I completely agree that it isn't on par with McDonald's or Burger, but it is still fast food. "Fast casual" is just a marketing term to imply higher quality food.

I think quick service vs fast food vs fast casual is all semantics. Of course there is some grey area, like most BBQ restaurants or McAlister's. But do Torchy's or Fuzzy's even have real plates and silverware?

Again, I don't care that any of this is in CC, but to say there is no fast food is just manipulating the term.

IMO this is awful. Surrounded by houses and split by Turnpike? I counted 6 fast food places along north and east roads thats a nice welcome lol. Surrounds school.

I think Chisholm is much better placed no houses except at southern end which will not be impacted much. No fast food its all much better venues than anywhere.

I’m sure there is a market to tap there but I hate the layout.
The turnpike issue I agree with that they should have tried to work with OTA to have some sort of connection, depressed, or elevated portion so the development wasn’t split. Now if you want to get from one side to the other you’ll have to go down to SW 15th ST. to cross it.

What is the problem with houses? People are what drives developments like this. People live in houses. I’m not following unless you’re saying apartments would be better but plenty of these sorts of developments are surrounded by single family homes in virtually every major metro area.

The turnpike issue I agree with that they should have tried to work with OTA to have some sort of connection, depressed, or elevated portion so the development wasn’t split. Now if you want to get from one side to the other you’ll have to go down to SW 15th ST. to cross it.

What is the problem with houses? People are what drives developments like this. People live in houses. I’m not following unless you’re saying apartments would be better but plenty of these sorts of developments are surrounded by single family homes in virtually every major metro area.

One day nice quiet neighborhood

Next day turnpike goes in

Next day massive business and entertainment complex

Traffic and more traffic. More strange cars driving around your houses. More traffic noise. Trucks to service complex. Light pollution. Car pollution. People lost or looking for shortcuts. Long traffic lights just to get in or out of your neighborhood.

Thats all I’m saying

One day nice quiet neighborhood

Next day turnpike goes in

Next day massive business and entertainment complex

Traffic and more traffic. More strange cars driving around your houses. More traffic noise. Trucks to service complex. Light pollution. Car pollution. People lost or looking for shortcuts. Long traffic lights just to get in or out of your neighborhood.

Thats all I’m saying

Property values increase

Sell home for profit

Move further out to nice quiet neighborhood

Rinse and repeat

So trendy fast food? Socially acceptable fast food? Expensive fast food? I completely agree that it isn't on par with McDonald's or Burger, but it is still fast food. "Fast casual" is just a marketing term to imply higher quality food.

I think quick service vs fast food vs fast casual is all semantics. Of course there is some grey area, like most BBQ restaurants or McAlister's. But do Torchy's or Fuzzy's even have real plates and silverware?

Again, I don't care that any of this is in CC, but to say there is no fast food is just manipulating the term.

I should have used the term 'fast casual'. And there are 3 distinct categories of restaurants: fast food, fast casual and full service.

So trendy fast food? Socially acceptable fast food? Expensive fast food? I completely agree that it isn't on par with McDonald's or Burger, but it is still fast food. "Fast casual" is just a marketing term to imply higher quality food.

I think quick service vs fast food vs fast casual is all semantics. Of course there is some grey area, like most BBQ restaurants or McAlister's. But do Torchy's or Fuzzy's even have real plates and silverware?

Again, I don't care that any of this is in CC, but to say there is no fast food is just manipulating the term.

there are clear differences in service at the different types of food establishments .... (just like hotels and many other things)

fast casual and fast food are completely different except that they both sell food ... as are they both different from full service restaurants ...

fuzzys and torchys both have real plates and silverware as well as alcohol ... and are not in any way "fast food"

One day nice quiet neighborhood

Next day turnpike goes in

Next day massive business and entertainment complex

Traffic and more traffic. More strange cars driving around your houses. More traffic noise. Trucks to service complex. Light pollution. Car pollution. People lost or looking for shortcuts. Long traffic lights just to get in or out of your neighborhood.

Thats all I’m saying

So you’re basically saying sprawl is bad? Who would of thought?

One day nice quiet neighborhood

Next day turnpike goes in

Next day massive business and entertainment complex

Traffic and more traffic. More strange cars driving around your houses. More traffic noise. Trucks to service complex. Light pollution. Car pollution. People lost or looking for shortcuts. Long traffic lights just to get in or out of your neighborhood.

Thats all I’m saying

Otherwise known as growth. But I hear you. Traffic, congestion, freeways, trains, and more people are the pros or cons(depending on how you look)at it that come with city life.

More than likely the sprawl of OKC will extend past El Reno one day. It’s just it is. People living on the fringes of a major metro should expect this sort of thing one day. A community as close as Mustang and Yukon should already know this.

I have some mixed feelings about the growth. On one hand I understand that it sucks when you buy a house in “the country” only to find that the city is replacing the country life down the line.

But on the other hand it often seems that the people who are living in areas like that made a choice to still life inside city limits because they do want (at least a partial) city life. People want city utilities, they want OKCFD to respond to their fire and they enjoy the better homeowners insurance rates that come with being inside a better rated fire district. They like being able to drive 5-10 minutes and being “in the city” for shopping and entertainment and then drive 5-10 minutes back and being back in “the country”, but in reality they were inside the city (limits) the entire time.

Many people try to game the system and get the best of both worlds by living inside the city limits while not living inside “the city”. I say that as someone living in suburbia in the northern edge of Oklahoma County and watching the growth over the past 10 years. But if you life inside the city limits and that close to the “city” for convenience, eventually the city will come out to you.

Sprawl does not equal growth.

Sprawl does not equal growth.

Care to elaborate? Even the anti car publications I’m willing to bet me eating a hat on you read from acknowledge sprawl as growth. They called it unsustainable or “bad” growth; it is growth nonetheless.

Care to elaborate? Even the anti car publications I’m willing to bet me eating a hat on you read from acknowledge sprawl as growth. They called it unsustainable or “bad” growth; it is growth nonetheless.

Lol what is an anti car publication?

Lol what is an anti car publication?
I was being facetious but sarcasm aside I’m sure you know what I meant.

Care to elaborate? Even the anti car publications I’m willing to bet me eating a hat on you read from acknowledge sprawl as growth. They called it unsustainable or “bad” growth; it is growth nonetheless.

Person A moving from Location X to Location Y is not growth. Not all new homes are built because of new demand and certainly not all new rental dwellings are built for new renters. That's not to say that sprawl is particularly possible without an element of growth, but sprawl is often the reason that another area takes a sharp dive after about 25 years of sustained activity and the previous area becomes straight up blighted. The growth of the PCN area in the 80s and 90s clearly came at a cost to the PCO area in that same time, that in turn cost certain parts of the Eastern half of the metro and inner-city OKC.

^^^^ since you want to be so technical about it theoretically it is growth if the city’s footprint is expanding. Since I wasn’t specific enough though it should be clear most cities experiencing population growth sprawl and vice versa. I’m not aware of very many cities that are sprawling and not experiencing population growth. To your point yes you’re correct but for crying out loud. :/

Took my family to Chisholm Creek over the weekend. This area is a great alternative for a Sunday afternoon getaway other than Bricktown. Nothing against Bricktown, but good to see another area OKC can offer as a destination. Once fully built, my family will be a regular to this area. Also noticed they have started foundation work where the new hotel will be located...no signs up yet, but an announcement should not be too far off.

if anything says a brutal crash is coming, it is Chisolm Creek...

Took my family to Chisholm Creek over the weekend. This area is a great alternative for a Sunday afternoon getaway other than Bricktown. Nothing against Bricktown, but good to see another area OKC can offer as a destination. Once fully built, my family will be a regular to this area. Also noticed they have started foundation work where the new hotel will be located...no signs up yet, but an announcement should not be too far off.

That is for a building that will be home to Chicken Salad Chick, Slapfish and some small shops.

No permits yet for the hotel or anything in Phase 2 quite yet.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/chisholm061119a.jpg

That is for a building that will be home to Chicken Salad Chick, Slapfish and some small shops.

No permits yet for the hotel or anything in Phase 2 quite yet.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/chisholm061119a.jpg

No, I know what area you are referring to. The area I am talking about is the location where it says "Future Hotel" in your picture above. There was some dirt work happening there with an unmanned earth mover on site.

No, I know what area you are referring to. The area I am talking about is the location where it says "Future Hotel" in your picture above. There was some dirt work happening there with an unmanned earth mover on site.

That's part of the neighboring construction.

if anything says a brutal crash is coming, it is Chisolm Creek...

Why is that?

Why is that?

He means that most people can't actually afford the amenities Chisholm Creek, but they regularly do so anyway to convince their friends and family that they can.

Why is that?

No Taco Bell...

He means that most people can't actually afford the amenities Chisholm Creek, but they regularly do so anyway to convince their friends and family that they can.

Anybody who thinks that needs to visit another city outside of Oklahoma. Chilsholm Creek-like developments have been common in other cities for a long time now.

Why is that?

He believes in all the conspiracy theories, and that developments like this are evil.

Anybody who thinks that needs to visit another city outside of Oklahoma. Chilsholm Creek-like developments have been common in other cities for a long time now.

So? I'll take Non-Sequiturs for $1,000, Alex!

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are-not-saving-any-money-for-emergencies-or-retirement-at-all.html

So? I'll take Non-Sequiturs for $1,000, Alex!

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are-not-saving-any-money-for-emergencies-or-retirement-at-all.html

Were getting off-topic, but this is probably a better example of evidence than looking at one little bitty development in just one state. If there is a crash its not because of places like Chisholm Creek, there are a lot better examples of frivolous spending and investing.

if anything says a brutal crash is coming, it is Chisolm Creek...

The real indication of a potential crash is the overbuilding of apartments made possible by cheap interest rates, and the staggering amount of debt that exists in the country... corporate and private. Artificially cheap money delays economic adjustments and magnifies crashes. Sort of like 2008.

^

Above all, hotels seem to be way, way overbuilt everywhere.

There must be well over a hundred of those 3-5 story, 100-room or so places all over the OKC area, and most have been built in the last 5-10 years.

The real indication of a potential crash is the overbuilding of apartments made possible by cheap interest rates, and the staggering amount of debt that exists in the country... corporate and private. Artificially cheap money delays economic adjustments and magnifies crashes. Sort of like 2008.

It all depends on whether or Not the apartments are occupied or not. Builders could not secure funding if the demand isn't there. I don't see it happening in OKC, but in nearby places like Dallas or Austin, you see massive overbuilding of condos being bought by non-resident foreign persons. California has become too expensive so Texas is now a place Asians are investing their cash into to get it out of their local currencies. THIS type of buying is a sure sign of a bubble as soon as things slow down - and eventually they always do.

No Taco Bell...

Props to you on the TB reference. Humorous take.

[QUOTE=mugofbeer;1078519]It all depends on whether or Not the apartments are occupied or not. Builders could not secure funding if the demand isn't there. I don't see it happening in OKC, but in nearby places like Dallas or Austin, you see massive overbuilding of condos being bought by non-resident foreign persons. California has become too expensive so Texas is now a place Asians are investing their cash into to get it out of their local currencies. THIS type of buying is a sure sign of a bubble as soon as things slow down - and eventually they always do.[/QUOTE

Cheap money and lax lending always creates overbuilding and correction.

That is for a building that will be home to Chicken Salad Chick, Slapfish and some small shops.

No permits yet for the hotel or anything in Phase 2 quite yet.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/chisholm061119a.jpg

This setup reminds me a lot of the "Waterfront" development in Wichita. I do think ours is much more dense, though.

^

Above all, hotels seem to be way, way overbuilt everywhere.

There must be well over a hundred of those 3-5 story, 100-room or so places all over the OKC area, and most have been built in the last 5-10 years.

Some how the prices per night keep going up too, though.

Some how the prices per night keep going up too, though.
Staying near the airport in all the new hotels on 15th and Meridian is cheap, $80/night for pretty much a brand new room is still pretty cheap.


https://i.imgur.com/Z7DnApD.png

Staying near the airport in all the new hotels on 15th and Meridian is cheap, $80/night for pretty much a brand new room is still pretty cheap.


https://i.imgur.com/Z7DnApD.png

Yeah, never understood who would want to stay around there. I haven't really paid attention in OKC, but most of the places I travel hotel prices are up quite a bit, even in Tulsa.

What is the per Square rate of retail businesses in Chisholm Creek? I heard Fuzzy's pays around 25K a month. I don't know if this is true or not, but that's a lot of tacos.

What is the per Square rate of retail businesses in Chisholm Creek? I heard Fuzzy's pays around 25K a month. I don't know if this is true or not, but that's a lot of tacos.

See below. Face rents of $35 sq/ft per year. So a 2,000 sq/ft restaurant would pay annual rent of $70k or $5,833 monthly.

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/13230-Pawnee-Dr-Oklahoma-City-OK/13809152/
https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/13220-Pawnee-Dr-Oklahoma-City-OK/12933355/

The rent is the highest per square foot in town, apart from perhaps some of the space at Penn Square and Quail Springs.

See below. Face rents of $35 sq/ft per year. So a 2,000 sq/ft restaurant would pay annual rent of $70k or $5,833 monthly.

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/13230-Pawnee-Dr-Oklahoma-City-OK/13809152/
https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/13220-Pawnee-Dr-Oklahoma-City-OK/12933355/

With restaurants, it's also likely they are paying a percentage of their revenues.

I met a friend last night at 7:30 at Birra Birra and there was a 40-minute wait.

All of Chisholm Creek was completely packed. Tons of people getting ice cream at Bibi, the rooftop was jammed at Chalk, Uncle Julio's had a wait, an army of kids were playing at the playground, all the patios were full everywhere and there were tons of cars at all the places in Tract 30.

We eventually got seats at the bar at Birra Birra and really enjoyed the experience.

Other than Bricktown or one of the 2 malls, it's great to see so many people out and congregating in OKC.

I met a friend last night at 7:30 at Birra Birra and there was a 40-minute wait.

All of Chisholm Creek was completely packed. Tons of people getting ice cream at Bibi, the rooftop was jammed at Chalk, Uncle Julio's had a wait, an army of kids were playing at the playground, all the patios were full everywhere and there were tons of cars at all the places in Tract 30.

We eventually got seats at the bar at Birra Birra and really enjoyed the experience.

Other than Bricktown or one of the 2 malls, it's great to see so many people out and congregating in OKC.

I agree, when my family went last week, I got the same vibe. We wanted to go to Hopdoddy, but the line was too long, we ended going to Firebirds. This is going to be great area for an alternative leisure destination besides Bricktown, the mall, etc. Once they add more retail, it will really get hopping. Hopefully phase 2 will add more retail, seems like now its mostly restaurants, salons, & bars.