Keep in mind that if the development at 50th & Penn goes forward, it has the potential to be unlike (and perhaps 'better') than anything in the state of Texas.

Sometimes you can take big leaps all at once and it only takes one new development. Devon Tower is another example.


Pete, why are developers so averse to spending real $ in OKC? For instance, all of the 5 story hotels in Bricktown? They're great hotels and great infill, absolutely! How successful are the 2 hotels next to the ballpark on Sheridan? Is there a reason we aren't seeing more 8+ story true mid rise hoteliers in Bricktown? It sort of saddens me. I feel like no one actually wants to gamble in Bricktown. Well, I say that, Steelyard is huge!

Similarly, why is a development like Chisholm Creek just now happening? Is it city management? Council? Elected officials? NIMBY opposition? A history of country/suburban living and a heavily automobile centered society?

I'm probably getting too deep into this. I just feel like, over the years of reading this site, there have been SEVERAL developments announced that could have been huge, wih all of them backpedaling or even dropping out entirely. I really don't want to see that anymore, be it in Bricktown or CC or 50th and Penn.

And I say all of that like there hasn't been an explosion of development in Auto Alley and Midtown and Uptown and First National and Film Row and on and on. Obviously OKC is getting there and its amazing. But we have also had a decent number of developmental let downs.

^

Mainly due to sprawl.

Land is super cheap and it's very easy to get anywhere, so we get lots of cheap development as a result and it's hard to create critical mass.

Quail Springs Mall and Kilpatrick Turnpike are two of the greatest atrocities ever committed on OKC. That mall opened in the early 80's nearly 40 years later you still have as much undeveloped land surrounding it as there has been development. Lots of crap out there, all around.

But, we now have Classen Circle, the Triangle and NH Plaza all of which is very high-quality development with tons of new-to-market retailers. Penn Square remains super strong and has added a bunch of new-to-market retaurants and retailers. Chisholm Creek is just getting started and the 50/Penn development could be amazing.

And of course, virtually everything in the core is very high quality.

So, progress is being made, just takes a while to turn the tanker around.

Keep in mind that if the development at 50th & Penn goes forward, it has the potential to be unlike (and perhaps 'better') than anything in the state of Texas.

Sometimes you can take big leaps all at once and it only takes one new development. Devon Tower is another example.

Pete, i have to disagree with you. I think the 50th and Penn project is very exciting. But i would like you to clarify what you're saying by it being "perhaps better" than anything in the state of Texas. Are you talking about economic impact? If so, you may be correct since OKC needs more options for corporate recruitment.

I can count maybe six projects in DFW where this is comparable. However, due to a major sprawl over-saturation seems imminent. Either way I hope it goes forward. I love OKC and want it to flourish.

I think NIMBY opposition has been a big part of it. It seems like most of the quality suburban developments that have been proposed here over the last 10-15 years have been successfully derailed by NIMBY opposition or at least delayed until the developer changed their plans, starting with Tuscana in the late 2000s. I know this isn't unique to OKC but compared to other places I've lived, it seems like NIMBYs here have been more successful.

Can someone post a link to the page about the 50th and Penn development?

Can someone post a link to the page about the 50th and Penn development?

Bottom of previous page.

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=38833&page=2&p=1041530#post1041530

Oh wow! Right up the road from me, too. I think the big recent news came when I was out of the city for a couple weeks, so I failed to notice at the time.

Chisholm Creek is 100% comparable to what the big city suburbs started building 10 and 20 years ago. Literally, Aubrey, Texas as something similar to this built over a decade ago. Aubrey is closer to Gainesville than it is Dallas.

It's great to be excited about new developments in OKC. But it's also okay to be frustrated with developments in OKC. I love Chisholm Creek, but the fact of the matter is that's it's borderline depressing that A) we are JUST now getting something like this that isn't your usual Ross/Petco/Lowes type strip center and B) that because of this, we actually take Chisholm Creek to be world class. Literally every major suburban area or midsize metro around us (Wichita, Little Rock, Fayetteville, Springfield, Frisco, Allen, Georgetown, Olathe, Lenexa) has had something similar to this.

Don't get mad at me, or others, for being upset at OKC's slow movement. OKC is getting there. We are no longer flailing in the back of the pack. Developments like Chisholm Creek are a massive step forward, but we don't need to kid ourselves into believing this is world class.

Agree 100% With this post. And really, nobody in this thread has been suggesting it was world class except for one casual comment by a single poster. And who knows? He may have just meant "I think it's really nice" and chose his words poorly. Overwhelmingly there has been discussion in this thread regarding individual Chisholm Creek businesses and general affirmation that they are good additions to the market, general approval of the mix of local and national credit tenants, etc.

But there has also been a lot of (civil) discussion regarding land use, acknowledgement that it still falls short of some of the great places of similar type that many of us have seen in other cities. There has been lots of really great back and forth on the topic, as there should be on a message board.

The suggestion that someone will get jumped on SIMPLY for disagreeing that this is world class or that this is a board populated by sunshine pumpers who leave no room for critical thought is absurd. In fact, if you ask Pete I'll bet he will agree that the (totally incorrect and unfair) perception he fights in the development and business communities is that the entire board is pervasively negative. Regular posters here know that this is totally false.

But the narrative that any criticism or negativity here will be called out by some squad of Pollyannas is just as false. Advancing this narrative reminds me of the diversionary strategies we see being practiced in the political realm these days.

There is a TON of honest, CIVIL debate regarding the relative merits developments, policies, decisions, A TON. The difference is, when a person participates often, brings ideas, questions, constructive comments, and demonstrates a willingness to balance their (hopefully well-reasoned) negative/critical opinions with positive and constructive ones on other topics, they have earned credibility. There are tons of examples of posters like this on this board.

When a poster - any poster - has no history whatsoever of positive/constructive OKC-related contributions to the overall discussion - or really any conversational contributions at all - and a demonstrable habit of ONLY poor-mouthing things here when commenting on them, well, it is absolutely fair to point out, I think. This is applies just as much to the type of poster we've all seen here who registers on the board and within 2-3 posts and a few minutes has the haterade flowing. They aren't adding to the board culture and discussion; only detracting from it, and their motives are transparent.

Pete, i have to disagree with you. I think the 50th and Penn project is very exciting. But i would like you to clarify what you're saying by it being "perhaps better" than anything in the state of Texas. Are you talking about economic impact? If so, you may be correct since OKC needs more options for corporate recruitment.

I can count maybe six projects in DFW where this is comparable. However, due to a major sprawl over-saturation seems imminent. Either way I hope it goes forward. I love OKC and want it to flourish.
Thanks for posting this because it is a perfect example of how to disagree without trashing, and by a resident of Texas, no less. Would love to see examples of those developments. Here is a Dallas thread if you'd like to post them there: http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=36215&page=65

I don't doubt for a second that there are numerous favorable examples in Dallas, though I haven't spent nearly as much time there in the past 5-10 years as I once did. I can tell you that I have seen much LARGER examples in places like Austin (The Domain is like if you did a mashup of the 50th/Penn development AND Penn Square Mall AND Chisholm Creek AND West Village AND Steelyard). I still maintain that The Pearl in San Antonio is the best all around large mixed-use development I have ever seen anywhere, as it benefits from the adaptive reuse of some amazing historic commercial structures and a really excellent food theme courtesy of being home to the Culinary Institute of America and promoting star graduates of CIA into restaurant partnerships.

I do believe that one strength of the 50th and Penn development is proximity to neighborhoods, and another is its proximity to PSM. It is rare for new build to be wedged in so nicely among so much stable housing stock and existing retail draw.

I agree with Pete (and also a number of Colbafone's theories) about why these things have not happened here to the extent that they have in other cities. Sprawl, sprawl sprawl and band generations-old land use policies put us behind the eight ball on a lot of this, to the point where all of our momentum for decades was at the fringe, and the preferred development pattern there is dictated by the automobile. Recall that during the seventies and early eighties, OKC was literally the largest city in America based on land mass, yet had a relatively small population. Makes it hard to achieve the type of critical mass that makes these types of developments possible. A lot of developers will also tell you that it simply was easier for them to turn a profit on mediocre development of greenfield; places which had never been touched by man other than turned by a plow. And for a long time we had pretty much zero disincentive to this investment or incentive to build density and in more urban areas.

I think another factor is that our economy is often out-of-sync with the national economy; times when we are riding especially high are when commodities prices are high, and this often correlates to the rest of the country being a bit down economically. This was definitely the case in the seventies, when the oil and gas industry was high-flying. Not only was there no national or local momentum toward density at the time, interest rates and inflation were amazingly high. So even people with money had trouble making complex and expensive development pencil.

Then, when walkable mixed use developments and town centers came into vogue, OKC was in the depths of a very debilitating economic downturn. We ended up pulling ourselves out with MAPS, but by the time we really caught some momentum other cities had lapped us on this type of development, and just as we REALLY gained momentum 2008 happened, which of course made borrowing amazingly more difficult. Then, another dip in oil prices, which may no longer largely power our community but still DEFINITELY are where play money comes from, the type of thing that usually drives OKC's better developments. So again, out of sync.

I think NIMBY opposition has been a big part of it. It seems like most of the quality suburban developments that have been proposed here over the last 10-15 years have been successfully derailed by NIMBY opposition or at least delayed until the developer changed their plans, starting with Tuscana in the late 2000s. I know this isn't unique to OKC but compared to other places I've lived, it seems like NIMBYs here have been more successful.
In the case of Tuscana, I seem to recall that a lot of people agreed that we (OKC and even the developer) maybe dodged a bullet when it wasn't built, if only because the desired development type had changed nationally at that point, yet the Tuscana design hadn't caught up to it. Do I remember that right? Also, late 2000s again was that tricky time for money thanks to the national crisis in 2008. By that time everyone else had that stuff, but we still hadn't gotten off of high center here. I didn't recall NIMBY opposition being a part of it..? Perhaps it was.

Honestly don't have a lot to base this on, but I don't think NIMBY opposition has played near the role you are suggesting. I do agree that it HAS played a role, and can think of some mixed use that died on the vine in Crown Heights east, also in Edmond (Lance Humphreys), and I know that the Triangle had a bunch of delays because of the one lady's lawsuits. But I really think it has had way more to do with the timing of developer interest and money, combined with prevailing land use policy which rewarded sprawl.

I used to think NIMBYs couldn’t get any worse than Edmond until I moved to LA.

Keep in mind that if the development at 50th & Penn goes forward, it has the potential to be unlike (and perhaps 'better') than anything in the state of Texas.

Pete, I greatly respect you, but you know that’s just not true. Urban infill development in the suburbs isn’t new, rare or unique in Texas.

It’ll be a very nice development, if it happens, for sure. But, it definitely will not be something unlike ever seen in Texas.

Good Lord man, let it go.

Idk, I absolutely see where Josh is coming from here. I don't see it as derogatory or overly negative about OKC. It's just matter of fact. There's a very small list of things that truly make OKC, or even the entire state, stand out. Things like The River Sports Rapids and the Olympic partnership. The renovations at First National. The IDEA of Bricktown (potentially as identifiable as the Gaslamp District, San Antonio's Riverwalk and the Power and Lights District). Tulsa's new Gathering Place is another neat state identifier. But I don't see it as fair to call what 50th and Penn will hopefully be a world beater development. That development will absolutely put that area on the map. It will absolutely rival the more dense/urban developments of other states. But it won't necessarily be any better. It's going to be pretty equivalent to what they already have, it's just that OKC doesn't currently have it.

You want to talk about making Texas jealous? Or making something World Class? Let's build our own Cotton Bowl. A world class Stadium. 85k+ seats, build it into the state fair grounds. Get as many games there as possible. Have a New Years Day bowl there. Bring the OU and OSU game there every year. Have that spur true development at the fairgrounds. Make our fairground a nationally recognized state fair and sought after facilities.

Let's make the Producers Co-Op world class. Let's bring a BETTER version of the Atlanta Aquarium there. Tie it right into the river. Tie it into the existing river attractions. Make it a true attraction. Surround it with amazing amenities. What's wrong with touristy things in that area or Bricktown? We want people to build here, right? We want tourists to stay here and spend money, right? Let's get a Medieval Times in the Producers Co-Op. Pole Position recently closed, but as far as a touristy attraction goes, imagine having an outdoor Pole Position right on the River? Or the southern part of the canal?

Why don't we build a Clara Luper/Katz Drug Store Civil Rights Museum? Do you have any idea how few people even know who she is, not any idea the significance of what she did? Since the original Katz Drug Store where she had the sit in is gone (I believe?) we could put it pretty much anywhere. Imagine a world class museum like this on the canal. Or with other world class amenities in my imagined Producers Co-Op. An actual world class civil right museum, in this day and age, would be monumental.

How about our own unique version of Great Wolf Lodge on the River on the Native American Museum grounds. Imagine building awesome amenities all the way from that museum to the Rapids and even further east.

Imagine the city working with Russell Westbrook to build a school like Lebron's somewhere downtown. You want to talk about world class and changing lives on an everyday basis? There you go.

Chicago has the Bean. We need something similar. I want a place where ANYONE can go, and post photos online and have everyone recognize exactly where they are. And do it without having a huge OKC Sign in the background. What's so difficult about building something as iconic as the Bean somewhere?

Why is out Stockyards City so terrible compared to Ft. Worth? We need to pour millions into that area. Make it as absolutely gimmicky as we can tolerate. Relocate all the close-by Will Rogers housing if that's a hindrance to growth there.

I'm rambling a bit, but until I see projects that are in scale with the First National Renovation or Devon Tower construction, none of it compares to the developments Texas and other states can bring in. As such, I appreciate people like Josh or bchris and panda and others who offer different perspectives on what we have here. I welcome it all. The good and the bad. I just want MY city to be recognized for how amazing it could be. In my mind, these ideas I've listed are what would help make this city TRULY world class and unique. And there are plenty of others idea I've heard floating around out there. Capping Broadway Extension downtown is one. And I get it, all of this costs money, but other cities get these sorts of developments, and I'm tired of ours missing out on them. We need more Marva Ellards in this city.

^^^^^^^
Again, I personally don't disagree with the idea that Chisholm Creek is not "world class." I would also agree that there are surely more impressive/bigger developments in Dallas than the proposed development at 50th and Penn. It's possible that Pete was meaning that it will be more special than moth because of its proximity to other things, such as the surrounding housing stock, and PSM, etc.. But I agree that there are a number of developments of this type that are far larger and more grand; I've seen them with my own eyes in places like Austin, San Antonio, Kansas City, etc.

So there is absolutely ZERO wrong with taking issue with overstatements or hype, though it is far better to follow your disagreement with reasons why you disagree, examples of other places, etc.. That is the way that we can ALL learn about things our city can aspire to.

But you do an absolute disservice to PluPan or bchris by lumping them into the hater category. The difference is that these guys both have ties to OKC, want very much for it to be better, post often about HOW they would like it to be better, and are not disinclined to say positive things when they see something they like. In the other case you have a person with no ties that I know of to OKC (this only matters because of the repeated negative content), who ONLY posts to promote stuff in his hometown or criticize something here or disagree with OKC hyperbole. Again, it is about contributions to the discussion outweighing negatives; that is it. Reality checks are totally valuable to the discussion, but when that's all there is, something else is at work.

Sorry, I know that at this point I am the one beating the dead horse, but I will only do so as long as people keep defending the behavior or lumping it in with that of other posters who actually attempt to bring value OTHER than simply knocking enthusiastic posters back down to size. It's a false equivalency.

Please quote me criticizing the city of OKC or even a development being built in OKC. You can’t, so you won’t. You’ll tell others to look it up or ignore my challenge.

The only think I’ve ever critized on this forum is a list (and the critique had nothing to do with OKC) and Dallas. I dislike that city with a passion.

But please, keep spreading the falsehood that I’ve criticized your city on this forum. It only helps fuel my theory of your sensitivity.

When is the Costco supposed to break ground across the street?

I didn't name you by name just now. I defended the other posters that had been lumped in with you, and pointed out that while they often express frustration or disapproval of things in OKC, it comes from being invested in some way and wanting OKC to be better. And that even with the critiques - which I will add are themselves often accurate and valuable to the discussion - they all ALSO bring ideas and positive comments where deserved.

I've yet to see an example of you adding anything insightful to the discussion here other than to tear down other posters' statements or to take issue with pro-OKC posts. You did it in this very thread in the midst of this very discussion we are having, and it was pointed out not by me but by another poster.

So, once again, I haven't even disagreed with the statements you made. While I think it is nice and a welcome addition to OKC, I don't myself view Chisholm Creek as "world class," and I don't dispute for a second that there are likely many mixed use developments in Texas which are bigger/nicer than the proposed development at 50th and Penn. You and I are actually on the same page here that OKC is still behind Texas and other neighboring states in many respects. The difference between you and me is that is your ONLY page.

I'm certainly not interested in going on ad infinitum about you or engaging in some sort of flame war. I've said my piece. People are welcome to go look at our respective posting histories and see who does what. If I've misrepresented your posting history they are welcome to judge me for it or even to list all of your positive (or even neutral) posts in your defense, and I will issue mea culpas. But they won't be doing that, because there is nothing of substance to post, and my reading of the situation is pretty damned accurate. Like I've said, if you start participating in this forum in a positive way (beyond your admittedly interesting posts in the SA thread), I'm willing to acknowledge it or at the very least won't bring up the topic again. Please, PLEASE engage with ideas or constructive conversation. I'd welcome it.

When is the Costco supposed to break ground across the street?

Very soon.

They've filed for their building permit and it should be issued in the near future, then they'll get busy.

Oklahoma has a lot of pre-history. Outstanding to the point that it is special.
Just to name a few -

The Cooper Site in Harper County. The oldest art form in North America was found there - it is currently on display at the Sam Noble Museum of Natural History.

http://www.pbs.org/time-team/explore-the-sites/bones-badger-hole/cooper-skull/

The Domebo Site (just south of Anadarko, Caddo County) - The first kill site discovered that found elephant (Columbian Mammoth) in association of Clovis culture artifacts (11,000 bp)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domebo_Canyon,_Oklahoma

Spiro Mounds (Spiro, Leflore County) - Recognized as the center of governing of the North American continent from ad 800 - 1400. (Caddoan Culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Mounds

Enjoy - Important to the archaeological record

Oklahoma has a lot of pre-history. Outstanding to the point that it is special.
Just to name a few -

The Cooper Site in Harper County. The oldest art form in North America was found there - it is currently on display at the Sam Noble Museum of Natural History.

http://www.pbs.org/time-team/explore-the-sites/bones-badger-hole/cooper-skull/

The Domebo Site (just south of Anadarko, Caddo County) - The first kill site discovered that found elephant (Columbian Mammoth) in association of Clovis culture artifacts (11,000 bp)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domebo_Canyon,_Oklahoma

Spiro Mounds (Spiro, Leflore County) - Recognized as the center of governing of the North American continent from ad 800 - 1400. (Caddoan Culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Mounds

Enjoy - Important to the archaeological record

Yes! All of those things are fascinating! And We have the Beavers Bend area, the Wichita Mountains, Little Sahara, the Alabaster Caverns, and the Arbuckles. We are fairly fortunate to have such a wide variety of naturally occurring spots/parks in this state!

Idk, I absolutely see where Josh is coming from here. I don't see it as derogatory or overly negative about OKC. It's just matter of fact. There's a very small list of things that truly make OKC, or even the entire state, stand out. Things like The River Sports Rapids and the Olympic partnership. The renovations at First National. The IDEA of Bricktown (potentially as identifiable as the Gaslamp District, San Antonio's Riverwalk and the Power and Lights District). Tulsa's new Gathering Place is another neat state identifier. But I don't see it as fair to call what 50th and Penn will hopefully be a world beater development. That development will absolutely put that area on the map. It will absolutely rival the more dense/urban developments of other states. But it won't necessarily be any better. It's going to be pretty equivalent to what they already have, it's just that OKC doesn't currently have it.

You want to talk about making Texas jealous? Or making something World Class? Let's build our own Cotton Bowl. A world class Stadium. 85k+ seats, build it into the state fair grounds. Get as many games there as possible. Have a New Years Day bowl there. Bring the OU and OSU game there every year. Have that spur true development at the fairgrounds. Make our fairground a nationally recognized state fair and sought after facilities.

Let's make the Producers Co-Op world class. Let's bring a BETTER version of the Atlanta Aquarium there. Tie it right into the river. Tie it into the existing river attractions. Make it a true attraction. Surround it with amazing amenities. What's wrong with touristy things in that area or Bricktown? We want people to build here, right? We want tourists to stay here and spend money, right? Let's get a Medieval Times in the Producers Co-Op. Pole Position recently closed, but as far as a touristy attraction goes, imagine having an outdoor Pole Position right on the River? Or the southern part of the canal?

Why don't we build a Clara Luper/Katz Drug Store Civil Rights Museum? Do you have any idea how few people even know who she is, not any idea the significance of what she did? Since the original Katz Drug Store where she had the sit in is gone (I believe?) we could put it pretty much anywhere. Imagine a world class museum like this on the canal. Or with other world class amenities in my imagined Producers Co-Op. An actual world class civil right museum, in this day and age, would be monumental.

How about our own unique version of Great Wolf Lodge on the River on the Native American Museum grounds. Imagine building awesome amenities all the way from that museum to the Rapids and even further east.

Imagine the city working with Russell Westbrook to build a school like Lebron's somewhere downtown. You want to talk about world class and changing lives on an everyday basis? There you go.

Chicago has the Bean. We need something similar. I want a place where ANYONE can go, and post photos online and have everyone recognize exactly where they are. And do it without having a huge OKC Sign in the background. What's so difficult about building something as iconic as the Bean somewhere?

Why is out Stockyards City so terrible compared to Ft. Worth? We need to pour millions into that area. Make it as absolutely gimmicky as we can tolerate. Relocate all the close-by Will Rogers housing if that's a hindrance to growth there.

I'm rambling a bit, but until I see projects that are in scale with the First National Renovation or Devon Tower construction, none of it compares to the developments Texas and other states can bring in. As such, I appreciate people like Josh or bchris and panda and others who offer different perspectives on what we have here. I welcome it all. The good and the bad. I just want MY city to be recognized for how amazing it could be. In my mind, these ideas I've listed are what would help make this city TRULY world class and unique. And there are plenty of others idea I've heard floating around out there. Capping Broadway Extension downtown is one. And I get it, all of this costs money, but other cities get these sorts of developments, and I'm tired of ours missing out on them. We need more Marva Ellards in this city.

Great Ideas! Totally agree with your comments

I really don't fully get wanting those lifestyle centers. They are mostly just plastic fakes of real urban areas with, depending on the size of the city, acres of parking or huge 10 story garages. Crate and Barrel, California Pizza, Williams Sonoma, PF Changs, Pottery Barn, Starbucks and Restoration Hardware in every single damn one of them. Rinse and repeat. When you are in them you can barely tell if you are in San Jose, Centennial, Plano, Burbank or Overland Park. Who cares?

CC is a perfectly nice collection of often local restaurants and stores around a nice water feature. If it wasn't on a highway service road I would say very nice. And the service road is no hit on the place vs Texas. EVERYTHING in Texas is on a fracking service road. No one loves the endless sprawl north of Dallas or between Austin and San Antonio. No one.

^^^ you’re wrong on just about everything you said. Just about...

^^^ you’re wrong on just about everything you said. Just about...

It’s his opinion, an opinion can be neither right or wrong. But he’s right, these large lifestyle centers are very rudimentary. You’re going to either get same high end type stores or you’ll get the sane lifestyle center but with middle of the road retailers. Just depends on the market. ElPaso is a good example of a market that built this type of lifestyle center but attracted only middle of the road or subpar retail and restaurants.

Btw, in Texas we call service roads either access roads or frontage roads. But yes, Texas is king if developers bf along frontage roads.

It’s his opinion, an opinion can be neither right or wrong. But he’s right, these large lifestyle centers are very rudimentary. You’re going to either get same high end type stores or you’ll get the sane lifestyle center but with middle of the road retailers. Just depends on the market. ElPaso is a good example of a market that built this type of lifestyle center but attracted only middle of the road or subpar retail and restaurants.

Btw, in Texas we call service roads either access roads or frontage roads. But yes, Texas is king if developers bf along frontage roads.”everything in Texas is along a service road” there are tons of developments that aren’t along service roads. Way to exaggerate that.

But theee lifestyle centers are urban areas, but his opinion of them being plastic fakes is bs, though I get it’s an opinion. I can easily tell the difference from being in an OC lifestyles center than one in San Jose. Or Dallas. Or LA. Etc. if we’re talking another cookie cutter, urban areas have tons of that as well. Especially many European cities that have large swaths of areas which the buildings are uniform and look almost exactly alike. Hardly unique to lifestyle centers.

”everything in Texas is along a service road” there are tons of developments that aren’t along service roads. Way to exaggerate that.

Obviously that’s an exaggeration. I took it more as him saying in major Texas cities the access roads are all developed with commercial development.


But theee lifestyle centers are urban areas, but his opinion of them being plastic fakes is bs, though I get it’s an opinion. I can easily tell the difference from being in an OC lifestyles center than one in San Jose. Or Dallas. Or LA. Etc. if we’re talking another cookie cutter, urban areas have tons of that as well. Especially many European cities that have large swaths of areas which the buildings are uniform and look almost exactly alike. Hardly unique to lifestyle centers.

I took his plastic comment in the same vein as my rudimentary comment. Large suburban lifestyle centers are no different than than enclosed malls from the 70/80s some are nicer than others.

I’m the 2000s, the lifestyle centers were about large foot prints and heavy on surface parking. In the last 8-10 years they’ve become more urban in design with garage parking and multi family components with wrap around parking. That’s what they’ve evolved into.

Hey guys, I hear that development Chisholm Creek on Memorial and Western is a really nice development, it will really do great things for the city and is a long time coming.

Its not that hard, lets get back to what matters and stop arguing over who likes OKC and who doesn't. Start a thread called, Grown men with thin skin, and take it there.

Chicago has the Bean. We need something similar. I want a place where ANYONE can go, and post photos online and have everyone recognize exactly where they are. And do it without having a huge OKC Sign in the background. What's so difficult about building something as iconic as the Bean somewhere?


Uhm, we do have one. It is the OKC Cock Ring.

Oklahoma has a lot of pre-history. Outstanding to the point that it is special.
Just to name a few -

The Cooper Site in Harper County. The oldest art form in North America was found there - it is currently on display at the Sam Noble Museum of Natural History.

http://www.pbs.org/time-team/explore-the-sites/bones-badger-hole/cooper-skull/

The Domebo Site (just south of Anadarko, Caddo County) - The first kill site discovered that found elephant (Columbian Mammoth) in association of Clovis culture artifacts (11,000 bp)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domebo_Canyon,_Oklahoma

Spiro Mounds (Spiro, Leflore County) - Recognized as the center of governing of the North American continent from ad 800 - 1400. (Caddoan Culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Mounds

Enjoy - Important to the archaeological record

Not to go too far off topic, but I used to live out in NE Oklahoma on a property where if you were lucky could find ancient arrowheads. The owners had several of them that they had found on display. There is even a burial mound site down the road.

Uhm, we do have one. It is the OKC Cock Ring.

You're damn right! I've commented on that thread, if you care to see my thoughts. I actually quite like it! It's funny, and has an identity already. I just hope it stays.

You hope it stays up, huh? Kind of the purpose of a, well, you know...

Does anyone know what is being built as a separate parcel or building to the east of Yokozuna. There is a large space in the parking lot which has been fenced off, between Yokozuna and the MidFirst ATM.

Is the city going to widen the lanes where Costco is going in? The Chisholm Creek traffic is really heavy in the evenings as it is...

Does anyone know what is being built as a separate parcel or building to the east of Yokozuna. There is a large space in the parking lot which has been fenced off, between Yokozuna and the MidFirst ATM.

It's spec retail space for lease. As far as I know, no tenants yet.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/chisholm100218.jpg

It just feels like this is turning into a "Try-Hard" development. And there's nothing wrong with that, per se. But there's really no denying that it has become one.

It just feels like this is turning into a "Try-Hard" development. And there's nothing wrong with that, per se. But there's really no denying that it has become one.

What exactly is so "Try-Hard" about this? They're bringing forward something that hasn't been done in OKC, if anything we should be encouraging developers to try harder.

Is the city going to widen the lanes where Costco is going in? The Chisholm Creek traffic is really heavy in the evenings as it is...

I mentioned this in another thread somewhere, but they really need to find a way to put in left-turn lanes at the Penn & Highland Park intersection, as well.

Undoubtedly. They need turn lanes plus both Penn and Western need dedicated U-turn lanes under the bridge from the west-bound Memorial traffic.

Pete, do you know what is going on the east side of Penn on the south side of Highland Park Drive (western entrance to Chisholm Creek)? Not the area facing Penn, mind you, just east of it. There is a huge amount of dirt being moved over there and I can't seem to see why.

Pete, do you know what is going on the east side of Penn on the south side of Highland Park Drive (western entrance to Chisholm Creek)? Not the area facing Penn, mind you, just east of it. There is a huge amount of dirt being moved over there and I can't seem to see why.

Are you talking about the big hole in the ground? That's a flood control project that has been going on for the past couple of years.

Pete, do you know what is going on the east side of Penn on the south side of Highland Park Drive (western entrance to Chisholm Creek)? Not the area facing Penn, mind you, just east of it. There is a huge amount of dirt being moved over there and I can't seem to see why.

From what I've heard, this spot is being worked on by the city to add multiple soccer fields for tournaments.

I believe it will be youth league soccer fields but will also act as the storm water detention for CC.

Razzoo's, Slapfish and more coming to Chisholm Creek (http://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=556-Razzoo-s-Slapfish-and-more-coming-to-Chisholm-Creek/)

Pete, any idea when an official announcement from Alamo Draft House is expected?

Pete, any idea when an official announcement from Alamo Draft House is expected?

Soon.

My understanding is that there are some moving parts involving other parts of the development, such as offices and more retail.

Soon.

My understanding is that there are some moving parts involving other parts of the development, such as offices and more retail.

Moving parts is good right? Or is Chisholm Creek wanting to announce a lot more than just Alamo at once?

Moving parts is good right? Or is Chisholm Creek wanting to announce a lot more than just Alamo at once?

I do think it's good.

They have lots of things going on -- lots of interest.

are there still plans for a concert type venue out there as well. The way this is shaping up It reminds me a lot of the Toyota Music factory in Irving. a smaller music venue surrounded by bars and restaurants and also an Alamo draft house. Its a great set up and great place to see a show.

http://toyotamusicfactory.com/

If the soccer stadium deal comes together there is a concert promoter involved whereby they would book music events for the facllity.

That would be ok I guess. feel like a Music geared setup would probably attract better but could work. Thanks Pete

That would be ok I guess. feel like a Music geared setup would probably attract better but could work. Thanks Pete

That still may happen in the longer term as that has always been part of the Chisholm Creek plan.

My aunt and uncle live in Auburn, AL, where Chicken Salad Chick is based out of. So, everytime we go visit them, we go there for lunch and absolutely love it. They found their niche and are sticking with it. Glad to see they are expanding into Oklahoma.

I do think it's good.

They have lots of things going on -- lots of interest.

May have already been asked, but do they still have plans for the main street-style part of the development (retail on ground floor, office/residential above)? I am guessing that is a later phase, but wasn't sure if it had been cut or not.

are there still plans for a concert type venue out there as well. The way this is shaping up It reminds me a lot of the Toyota Music factory in Irving. a smaller music venue surrounded by bars and restaurants and also an Alamo draft house. Its a great set up and great place to see a show.

http://toyotamusicfactory.com/

I really like the Uber Pick-up/Drop-off station for that. I hope there is something a long those line at CC once it gets closer to getting filled in.

https://www.bizjournals.com/birmingham/news/2018/12/04/birmingham-developer-to-work-on-190-acre-project.html

This could be massive! Bayer Properties worked on all of the Summit malls! So this could be huge for OKC! It is an exclusive article, but maybe Pete knows more about the dealings here!

Bayer will be helping Chisholm with the leasing and planning of the development.

They've served the same role with some cool lifestyle developments and it seems they are needed to help layout and fill up this project as they are juggling lots of moving parts like Alamo Drafthouse, office buildings, the Energy stadium, music venues and yes, IKEA. I had previously mentioned that the Alamo deal was slightly delayed as they planned out most the larger project.

From the Bayer website:

"Medallion Group, in partnership with Bayer Properties, will refine plans for Chisholm Creek’s remaining uses, including Class A office space, luxury apartments, a hotel, an amphitheater, a boutique cinema, a food hall, a regional park and a state-of-the-art hospital."


Until it recently sold, Bayer was leasing the Quail Springs Marketplace that contains Lowes and Kirkland's on the south side of Memorial to the west of Penn.

http://www.bayerproperties.com/

Perhaps this will be an urban ikea prototype with the mixed-use village they have planned.

Why not put a Benihana in Chisholm Creek? Hell they got one in little rock for god sake.