I wonder if the local or state government could subsidize that rate and bring the price down to $4 for daily commuters.

It's $12 for a TRE day pass to go between Dallas and Ft Worth, so really if they could just come down a little, doesn't need to go all the way to $4 (I mean, that's literally bus pass cheap right there). Also if they offered a monthly pass it would probably help.

I don’t think the benefit would be all that great to bother going after any serious partnerships. Hard to say without knowing the train schedule. It might not really be conducive for the masses. But if it happens to have a decent schedule for commuting there could be some potential branding work to make people aware of the option. It looks to be a 24 minute ride each way. Anyone who has driven between downtown Norman and Downtown OKC know the drive is easily about double that.

This would be a no-brainer commuter rail line. I fully understand why the FNBS railroad (Effin BS - BNFS) doesn’t want the additional scheduling headache. Having a full double track would ease that. Too many sidings right now to run a passenger schedule with freight operations. I hate to say freight schedules because BNFS doesn’t seem to have one except for a few priority trains.

that was a very nice pitch by wichita, above. But the question I have - are they advocating to extend the current Heartland Flyer route (meaning they're ok having overnight arrival/departure) and why didn't they include OKC's metro population in their pitch (7.5m DFW + 1.5m OKC = 9m direct connection to Wichita) particularly since ICT and OKC have become much closer due to corp relocations from there to OKC.

anyway - Hope it passes and we get this implemented, the OKC-TEX additional trains are a no-brainer that should be implemented almost immediately with the Wichita/Newton and points between implemented within 5 years.

Yes, that would give a serious bump for OKC-Norman commuter rail options without even adding the RTA yet; but certainly could help make the case for the RTA esp the south corridor with the North corridor being second.

Sorry this isn’t passenger rail related but for any rail geeks(is that the proper term?) on here:

https://www.newson6.com/story/6111690c19720d0c072da454/worlds-largest-steam-locomotive-big-boy-to-roll-through-oklahoma-?fbclid=IwAR3FHH_yENo8SATP2MDkpyyMC4xynRwWbyjL7YD7 JhPUvwr0AC2SkqazvRA

Sorry this isn’t passenger rail related but for any rail geeks(is that the proper term?) on here:

https://www.newson6.com/story/6111690c19720d0c072da454/worlds-largest-steam-locomotive-big-boy-to-roll-through-oklahoma-?fbclid=IwAR3FHH_yENo8SATP2MDkpyyMC4xynRwWbyjL7YD7 JhPUvwr0AC2SkqazvRA

Proper term is Railfan.

Proper term is Railfan.
Railfan okay cool. For roads and highways it’s Roadgeeks. Well, Roadgeeks tend to focus more on route signage and what not.

In my 38 years on the ATSF/BNSF, I was a railfan, but the employees would refer to railfans in a somewhat negative way by calling them ‘foamers’. Use your imagination.....

I’m trying to connect the dots but I’m failing. Foamers hmmmm

I’m trying to connect the dots but I’m failing. Foamers hmmmm
Anybody that would spend their time watching trains, that we have to work on, 24/7, winters and summer, and put up with management, is a little bit off, mentally and physically, hence the name foamer.

Anybody that would spend their time watching trains, that we have to work on, 24/7, winters and summer, and put up with management, is a little bit off, mentally and physically, hence the name foamer.

I have an 18 year old nephew who must be a 'foamer'. He is autistic and his life revolves around trains. He will walk miles to photograph them. For his high school graduation his dad took him to Omaha just to see the trains and Union Pacific HQ. The wonderful thing is he is a very talented water color artist and he paints trains. He literally has people wanting to buy his art work.

I have an 18 year old nephew who must be a 'foamer'. He is autistic and his life revolves around trains. He will walk miles to photograph them. For his high school graduation his dad took him to Omaha just to see the trains and Union Pacific HQ. The wonderful thing is he is a very talented water color artist and he paints trains. He literally has people wanting to buy his art work.

Did he like Thomas the Tank when he was a kid? Thomas is the top toy/character for spectrum kids and trains tends to be a byproduct of that.

Foamer is derogatory, and while a lot of Railfan's are okay with this, many are not as it's what Railroaders (those who work for RR) call the crazy Railfans.

I’m trying to connect the dots but I’m failing. Foamers hmmmm

Come from foam at the mouth when they see a train.

Think Homer Simpson and beer.

I have an 18 year old nephew who must be a 'foamer'. He is autistic and his life revolves around trains. He will walk miles to photograph them. For his high school graduation his dad took him to Omaha just to see the trains and Union Pacific HQ. The wonderful thing is he is a very talented water color artist and he paints trains. He literally has people wanting to buy his art work.

Just wanting to be clear, I saw the word foamer in terms of endearment, as I was called many names, sorta like being in High School for 38 years. There was nothing more fun, if you had the right crew, to have train nuts come and ride a switch engine on Saturday or Sunday mornings at GM when we were still the Santa Fe. To see the look in their eyes when they blew the whistle, or rang the bell was a hoot! After the merger, civilians on the ‘property’, were not tolerated by management. And it amused me to the last day that I was being paid to climb on a locomotive and play with the trains.

Railfan okay cool. For roads and highways it’s Roadgeeks. Well, Roadgeeks tend to focus more on route signage and what not.

Well there's a new internet rabbithole for me to fall down. Huh, fascinating.

Just wanting to be clear, I saw the word foamer in terms of endearment, as I was called many names, sorta like being in High School for 38 years. There was nothing more fun, if you had the right crew, to have train nuts come and ride a switch engine on Saturday or Sunday mornings at GM when we were still the Santa Fe. To see the look in their eyes when they blew the whistle, or rang the bell was a hoot! After the merger, civilians on the ‘property’, were not tolerated by management. And it amused me to the last day that I was being paid to climb on a locomotive and play with the trains.

I personally don't care, but speaking as a Railfan myself, others flip out if you even think that word.

I don't care if people think it's dumb/silly that I can spot the differences between an EMD or GE from a mile away. :)

Well there's a new internet rabbithole for me to fall down. Huh, fascinating.
Lol here’s a forum dedicated to it. I’m there as well as several other posters here: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/

Just wanting to be clear, I saw the word foamer in terms of endearment, as I was called many names, sorta like being in High School for 38 years. There was nothing more fun, if you had the right crew, to have train nuts come and ride a switch engine on Saturday or Sunday mornings at GM when we were still the Santa Fe. To see the look in their eyes when they blew the whistle, or rang the bell was a hoot! After the merger, civilians on the ‘property’, were not tolerated by management. And it amused me to the last day that I was being paid to climb on a locomotive and play with the trains.

My nephew painted a picture of a train engine and gave it to the Ft Worth office of UP or BNSF, not sure which one, (they let him ride in the locomotive one time in the yard). It's been in that office for years now. His artistic ability is fabulous.

Nice new interactive website for the Amtrak Connects US plan: https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/maps/. The page for the OKC to Newton extention is: Newton/Wichita – Oklahoma City - Fort Worth (https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/maps/newton-wichita-oklahoma-city-fort-worth/).

Might have been posted already but I am not finding it in the thread.

I'm just as excited for the FTW-Houston route.

The one (minor) disappointment so far is not leveraging this situation to add the station at Thackerville.

Interesting that they linked to the Plan OKC site in that article.

Yeah I was little disappointed about that as well. Who do you write you about that?

Really not sure

But there's a "take action" link on their site: https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/take-action/

Looks like it just messages your congresspeople. But you could use that to echo support and throw in that one criticism.

The one (minor) disappointment so far is not leveraging this situation to add the station at Thackerville.

I’d love a Denton/Sanger stop too. It’s a 45 minute drive to either Gainesville or Fort Worth from Denton.

Oh dang, yes agreed. Why did I think there already was one?

ugh... why can't they just connect La Junta to Pueblo so that it's much easier to get from OKC to Denver...

Agreed, but a better connection would be Trinidad as that would allow for a more seamless trip from the Front range into New Mexico, which would undoubtedly be the bulk of the connecting traffic.

The line between Trinidad and Pueblo would need some work. It is BNSF but it does not have PTC yet. It relies on over the radio track warrants. Pueblo to La Junta does have PTC as far as I am aware, so that would be less cost.
No reason to not connect it to one or the other, but Trinidad would be the best choice for success.

ugh... why can't they just connect La Junta to Pueblo so that it's much easier to get from OKC to Denver...

There was a conceptual plan connecting OKC to Kansas City that not only would have a much larger population along the route picking up Tulsa, but would connect to the rest of the network at a much better time. As the plan is now you would probably need to make the connection in Kansas around 2 AM.

ugh... why can't they just connect La Junta to Pueblo so that it's much easier to get from OKC to Denver...

100% agreed. At one time I was told that in conjunction with the proposed Front Range (Cheyenne-Den-Pueblo) train, the Southwest Chief would be re-routed to add Pueblo between La Junta and Trinidad. I have no idea if that idea is still being considered - but I definitely agree that some sort of connection needs to be made between these two trains.

There was a conceptual plan connecting OKC to Kansas City that not only would have a much larger population along the route picking up Tulsa, but would connect to the rest of the network at a much better time. As the plan is now you would probably need to make the connection in Kansas around 2 AM.

This was the original plan presented a decade ago that shows the OKC-Tulsa-KC-St Louis-Chicago route. Still hopeful this can happen someday.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyaGMHbWgAUM159.jpg

That would be nice to see one day but with nuclear powered maglev instead of rail based HSR.

This was the original plan presented a decade ago that shows the OKC-Tulsa-KC-St Louis-Chicago route. Still hopeful this can happen someday.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyaGMHbWgAUM159.jpg

Interesting, but I was referring to a different one which was with non HSR lines.

Interesting, but I was referring to a different one which was with non HSR lines.
The most recent proposal by Amtrak?

The most recent proposal by Amtrak?

No, I want to say the proposal was primarily being driven by Tulsa politicians and had at least some support from interested parties. If I had to guess it was sometime around 2000-2005.

I think it also had an alternate plan for the northern connection to the network be St Louis, but more distance likely means more cost, though plausibly could have picked up more political support from Joplin, Springfield, and St Loius if that was lacking on the route through Kansas.

No, I want to say the proposal was primarily being driven by Tulsa politicians and had at least some support from interested parties. If I had to guess it was sometime around 2000-2005.

I think it also had an alternate plan for the northern connection to the network be St Louis, but more distance likely means more cost, though plausibly could have picked up more political support from Joplin, Springfield, and St Loius if that was lacking on the route through Kansas.
I found this Wiki on a proposal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Flyer

I recall there was a proposal in the earlier part of the 2010's decade to connect OKC to Tulsa but the service wasn't going to connect the downtown's just the outskirts of the city and was going to average a speed of 45 MPH. Per reports OTA has plans to widen I-44 to six lanes between OKC and Tulsa one would think they could save money building an adjacent 110 MPH rail line as one project as opposed to coming back and doing it later.

Tulsa to OKC needs to be the first priority. Heartland Flyer north is already likely going to happen. That is good enough for Tulsa for the time being. Eventually connect Tulsa to STL and then add lines from Tulsa to KC and NWA later on.

I found this Wiki on a proposal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Flyer

I recall there was a proposal in the earlier part of the 2010's decade to connect OKC to Tulsa but the service wasn't going to connect the downtown's just the outskirts of the city and was going to average a speed of 45 MPH. Per reports OTA has plans to widen I-44 to six lanes between OKC and Tulsa one would think they could save money building an adjacent 110 MPH rail line as one project as opposed to coming back and doing it later.

Tulsa to OKC needs to be the first priority. Heartland Flyer north is already likely going to happen. That is good enough for Tulsa for the time being. Eventually connect Tulsa to STL and then add lines from Tulsa to KC and NWA later on.

I am not sure if that is what the concept morphed into or was technically a separate push, but the original hope seemed like they wanted it to be an Amtrak line, and would have connected to existing stations on the network in OKC and KC or STL from the start. Not what was eventually trialed.

2.3 billion in federal money coming for passenger rail. I wonder if Oklahoma or any cities here will even try to get it:

https://www.route-fifty.com/infrastructure/2022/12/passenger-rail-set-expand-23b-grabs/380585/

https://www.beeline-express.com/routes/okc-newton/

Anyone taken the Beeline Express to Newton KS?

https://www.beeline-express.com/routes/okc-newton/

Anyone taken the Beeline Express to Newton KS?

Beeline Express operates this bus for Amtrak as thruway route 8903/8904 to connect OKC, Wichita, and Newton. It's been a couple of years but I've taken this bus a few times to connect with the Southwest Chief toward Chicago. It's not bad and I'm glad it exists, but if I'm being honest I can't wait for it to be replaced by an actual train. The last time I rode it, they were using an old Greyhound bus, so the seats are kinda narrow. This was a little less comfortable than I would have preferred, because I'm a heavyset guy - but if you're more in shape than I am it isn't bad. Also, the departure and arrival times of that route aren't great, but they are a necessity because of the function the route serves - to shuttle people between the Southwest Chief and the Heartland Flyer. Those minor gripes aside, no complaints. Again, very glad it exists for now, but definitely hope that it's rendered redundant by an actual extension of the Heartland Flyer soon.

Looks like it will still be around even after the expansion since it is funded by KDOT with hq in Wichita AND there's other routes/cities being connected. It's actually something Oklahoma should consider to connect it's towns and cities to OKC.

Good news hopefully this happens before the end of the decade:


State Rep. Ken Luttrell, R-Ponca City, said he’s been pressing for a similar rail line expansion for nearly two decades because much of north-central Oklahoma is considered a “transportation desert” with no convenient access to rail, bus or planes. If the Heartland Flyer got the nod to expand northward from Oklahoma City, officials are tentatively looking at adding Oklahoma stops in Guthrie, Perry and Ponca City, and Kansas stops in Arkansas City, Wichita and Newton, he said.

Luttrell said he believes that the time is right to expand the route because of President Joe Biden’s push to expand and upgrade the nation’s rail transportation routes. That push has been accompanied by federal funding through a related Democrat-supported infrastructure funding measure and federal coronavirus aid.

He also said federally-designated essential rail routes will be supported almost entirely by the federal government.

He’d ultimately like to see the federal government restore the Lone Star passenger route that ran from Chicago to Houston. That route, which was discontinued decades ago, used to pass through Houston, Fort Worth, Oklahoma City, Wichita and Kansas City before ending in Chicago. The trains also stopped at multiple smaller communities along the way.

Luttrell argues that the Heartland Flyer rail line expansion would be a boon for tourism throughout Oklahoma. He said other neighboring states that have invested in expanding passenger rail have seen “a great return on investment” with new tax revenue and tourism dollars.

He also said he believes the expansion would cost Oklahoma taxpayers less than $10 million if the state paid the entire cost. If the federal government backs the project, it would pick up most of the initial tab for expansion, but the federal subsidy would likely decrease over time and both states would begin picking up more of the cost.

State Rep. Ronny Johns, R-Ada, who heads the House’s transportation committee, said connecting the Heartland Flyer passenger route to the major east-west rail lines in Kansas is “a fantastic idea.”

“It comes with a heavy price tag, and so that’s the main concern, but hopefully we can work and get that done,” Johns said. “It would be fantastic because that connects us a lot better to the rest of the country.”

Bryce Boyer, a spokesman for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation, said in an email that given the unknowns, it’s too soon to know how much the proposed expansion would cost Oklahoma taxpayers.

If designated as an essential rail corridor, the project would receive $450,000 from the federal government to help plan the route. Oklahoma and Kansas would each contribute $25,000.

He said ODOT and KDOT are working together to develop a service plan for the expansion. It’s expected to be completed in the second quarter of 2024.

- read more here: https://www.tahlequahdailypress.com/news/oklahoma-officials-want-to-expand-heartland-flyer-into-kansas-connect-to-east-west-trains/article_ce91659e-d57c-11ed-bca8-731cea7dc162.html

10 million dollars shouldn’t be hard for the state to come up with for a project like this. It says a plan will come out in 2024 with long term visions of restoring Houston to Chicago service which would pass through OKC. Good news on all fronts. Maybe best case scenario we get this expansion done by 2026/2027. This is good news.

Kansas just voted to apply for funds along with Oklahoma. Getting close! https://www.kgou.org/business-and-economy/2023-05-01/oklahoma-kansas-apply-for-planning-funds-to-link-okc-to-bevy-of-destinations-by-passenger-rail

Article from TW about Tulsa being left out of the Heartland Flyer expansion which is kind of weird given that would need to be it’s own line but an OKC-Tulsa-STL line would be nice to have. Not sure why anyone would be surprised Tulsa isn’t being included in the Heartland Flyer expansion though.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-politics/tulsa-not-included-in-proposed-okc-to-kansas-passenger-rail-expansion/article_68b5344e-053d-11ee-a5f2-b3714a93e9bb.html

Article from TW about Tulsa being left out of the Heartland Flyer expansion which is kind of weird given that would need to be it’s own line but an OKC-Tulsa-STL line would be nice to have. Not sure why anyone would be surprised Tulsa isn’t being included in the Heartland Flyer expansion though.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-politics/tulsa-not-included-in-proposed-okc-to-kansas-passenger-rail-expansion/article_68b5344e-053d-11ee-a5f2-b3714a93e9bb.html

This is the reason, along with lack of political will by Tulsa leaders to push hard for it:

The condition of the railroad tracks between Oklahoma City and Newton is better than the condition of the Sooner Subdivision line, said Gary Lanman, vice president of the Northern Flyers Alliance.

“That’s the big reason why we would have trouble getting a passenger train to Tulsa,” he said.

When the Sooner Subdivision line was sold in 2014, estimates indicated that more than $223 million in upgrades would be needed for that stretch of railroad to meet passenger rail standards.

At this point it would take a massive federal stimulus for rail to fund an OKC-TUL corridor, and likely would need to be part of a larger corridor connecting to STL

ODOT f@cked up with that. We need to nationalize our rail lines. I-44 is a straight shot for a nice train that could average 110-150 MPH speeds and could be a diesel train so it could be comparable to continue up to STL and offer transfers.

Not sure if a Tulsa to KC line would be worth it or not unless it was a collaboration for a rail line from New Orleans up to NWA then onto KC with a separate line for Tulsa to KC trips using that line.

What’s up with the leaders in Tulsa? Are they even trying or just typical small town Oklahoma mentality?

Pretty sure the “leaders” in Tulsa are just George Kaiser and his foundation.

Pretty sure the “leaders” in Tulsa are just George Kaiser and his foundation.
Well, according to the article I posted, ODOTs next priority after extending and improving the Heartland Flyer is to address passenger rail between OKC and Tulsa which could be HSR.

Well, according to the article I posted, ODOTs next priority after extending and improving the Heartland Flyer is to address passenger rail between OKC and Tulsa which could be HSR.

The state has been saying that for more than 25 years, since before the Heartland Flyer even started. All hope was lost when the Mary Fallin and the ODOT sold the line between OKC and Sapulpa.

For ODOT to say that the "next" priority is to connect Tulsa with Amtrak service is a lie, it's always been a lie. It always will be. This is why Tulsa leaders don't try anymore, it's pointless to spend political capital on something that will never happen.

Another note, Tulsa *could* be connected easily to St Louis, but then that wouldn't benefit OKC would it? So that won't happen either.

Maybe once the Heartland Flyer gets going more and is extended and our leaders see the direct benefits they’ll take it more seriously. But yeah I get your frustration. A Tulsa to OKC like should be included in the rebuild and expansion of I-44 on a new direct alignment. Take the old rail line and convert it to a trail.

Didn’t Tulsa oppose the excursion train coming to Tulsa about 10 years ago. I think it was a WATCO test run, but it seems like Tulsa always opposes things and then cries when they get left out.

Tulsa needs to get out front on issues like this. Get money together and say, “Oklahoma City, here’s $50 million. You chip in $50 million and let’s get a federal match and leave the state out of it.” That’s leadership. Expressing disappointment because they got left out of a proposal that never included Tulsa in the first place is just silly. Tulsa politicians can lean on ODOT just like Oklahoma City can. Their leaders actually have to step up to the plate and take a swing, instead of hoping Oklahoma City will do all the political heavy lifting for them. They are the second most populated city in the state, they have influence if they would even attempt to use it.

Tulsa doesn't have rail because they went all-in on autonomous cars.

Didn’t Tulsa oppose the excursion train coming to Tulsa about 10 years ago. I think it was a WATCO test run, but it seems like Tulsa always opposes things and then cries when they get left out.


First of all, condescending. Also, this is just simply not true.



Tulsa needs to get out front on issues like this. Get money together and say, “Oklahoma City, here’s $50 million. You chip in $50 million and let’s get a federal match and leave the state out of it.” That’s leadership. Expressing disappointment because they got left out of a proposal that never included Tulsa in the first place is just silly. Tulsa politicians can lean on ODOT just like Oklahoma City can. Their leaders actually have to step up to the plate and take a swing, instead of hoping Oklahoma City will do all the political heavy lifting for them. They are the second most populated city in the state, they have influence if they would even attempt to use it.

More condescension. And, um, the original proposal for the Heartland Flyer most certainly DID include Tulsa. The state never followed through with phase II (Tulsa). In fact, providing service to Tulsa as part of the Heartland Flyer is written into state law. Tulsa legislators did help OKC area lawmakers pass the Heartland Flyer with the understanding that OKC would support phase II to Tulsa. But once service started to Oklahoma City, support from the Oklahoma City area evaporated. Ever since the state has promised to extend service over and over and always failed.

Interesting idea about funding though. But a question, did Oklahoma City have to pony up city funds for the Heartland Flyer? No? I only ask because people in Tulsa certainly pay state taxes that ODOT uses to fund the Heartland Flyer today and have for the last 20 years.

Regardless, Tulsa has allocated money for rail. The Vision Tulsa vote in 2016 actually allocated funds for two BRT lines and a downtown rail transit hub to connect all of them to Amtrak service. The first BRT line has been running for a couple of years, the second starts service next summer. There's nothing on progress on the rail hub because the state has done nothing. It seems even with provided funding ODOT just doesn't care.

Personally, I agree politicians from Tulsa should step up. Step up and vote against any and all funding for the Heartland Flyer until the state steps up and takes connecting Tulsa seriously. ODOT only notices when you threaten their money.

Boise City also pays taxes that go to the Heartland Flyer. I am discussing the proposal that Kansas and Amtrak seem to be leading on which extends the Flyer to Newton, it seems to me that those two entities are leading the way and OKC and ODOT are just along for the ride.

Where is that same type of leadership out of Tulsa? It’s looking like it is getting extended because of Kansas and Amtrak leading the way, not ODOT. This proves that if Tulsa gets a proposal together with political and financial backing, ODOT and OKC will help.

First of all, condescending. Also, this is just simply not true.



More condescension. And, um, the original proposal for the Heartland Flyer most certainly DID include Tulsa. The state never followed through with phase II (Tulsa). In fact, providing service to Tulsa as part of the Heartland Flyer is written into state law. Tulsa legislators did help OKC area lawmakers pass the Heartland Flyer with the understanding that OKC would support phase II to Tulsa. But once service started to Oklahoma City, support from the Oklahoma City area evaporated. Ever since the state has promised to extend service over and over and always failed.

Interesting idea about funding though. But a question, did Oklahoma City have to pony up city funds for the Heartland Flyer? No? I only ask because people in Tulsa certainly pay state taxes that ODOT uses to fund the Heartland Flyer today and have for the last 20 years.

Regardless, Tulsa has allocated money for rail. The Vision Tulsa vote in 2016 actually allocated funds for two BRT lines and a downtown rail transit hub to connect all of them to Amtrak service. The first BRT line has been running for a couple of years, the second starts service next summer. There's nothing on progress on the rail hub because the state has done nothing. It seems even with provided funding ODOT just doesn't care.

Personally, I agree politicians from Tulsa should step up. Step up and vote against any and all funding for the Heartland Flyer until the state steps up and takes connecting Tulsa seriously. ODOT only notices when you threaten their money.

And as I have talked about in the past, it’s a horrible track infrastructure. The whole line is running at 20 mph with 19 (or more) 10 mph slow orders. The line has the most grade crossings of any RR in Oklahoma because of its angle NE. And there is no signal system (Amtrak can only run to 49 without signal protection). Partner with the SNCF to build and operate TVG’s, on a new right of way, from Harter yard downtown Tulsa, 1 hour and 15-20 minutes.

Boise City also pays taxes that go to the Heartland Flyer. I am discussing the proposal that Kansas and Amtrak seem to be leading on which extends the Flyer to Newton, it seems to me that those two entities are leading the way and OKC and ODOT are just along for the ride.

Where is that same type of leadership out of Tulsa? It’s looking like it is getting extended because of Kansas and Amtrak leading the way, not ODOT. This proves that if Tulsa gets a proposal together with political and financial backing, ODOT and OKC will help.

That is fracking hilarious you believe that. Here is actual history:

4/20/93 – State bill authored by Broken Arrow Sen Kevin Easley passed intends to bring rail service back to Oklahoma
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/senate-bill-woos-amtrak/article_99768bd7-c59c-5a39-a8ad-5e6f443a9417.html

11/9/94 – Amtrack and ODOT study rail lines between Ft Worth, OKC and Tulsa to look to restoring service to Oklahoma
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/passenger-trains/article_24bfd722-a20e-51cd-b20a-3cb2a6c0a04f.html

2/13/98 – State buys Frisco rail line between Oklahoma City and Sapulpa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/state-purchasing-railroad-track/article_2106be93-4483-5574-8a9f-b2e488157946.html

6/12/98 – Sen Don Nickles gets $23 million in federal funding for Amtrack service in Oklahoma, service could start in the spring of ’99, four routes are being considered, Ft Worth to OKC to Tulsa, OKC to Newton, KS, Tulsa to Kansas City, Tulsa to St Louis. Tulsa is promised to be included due to a state law passed in 1993 that requires any service with a state subsidy include Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/trains-on-track/article_417a83fc-b480-5400-848e-612f40169df0.html

10/22/98 – Kansas and Oklahoma lawmakers form an alliance to promote rail, Texas expected to Join. State that phase one of the service will be to connect Ft Worth and Oklahoma City, phase two of the service will connect Tulsa and Kansas City, phase three OKC to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/alliance-for-amtrak-in-works/article_0235ebc8-5f73-5162-997a-ff1590ff69a7.html

4/15/99 – ODOT and Amtrack announce service to Oklahoma City will start 6/15. ODOT head Neil McCaleb says phase 2 will be to link to Tulsa, but no date is set at this time
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/next-stop-oklahoma/article_fcde7fae-a838-5048-9726-08e83d5932d9.html

4/25/99 – Tulsa World editorial. Praises start of planned Amtrack service to OKC in June, predicts that phase II connecting Tulsa will never happen
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/david-averill-waiting-at-the-station/article_f24f5410-ec05-5500-98c6-8428bdb0b327.html

6/15/99 – Heartland Flyer debuts! Governor say people need to use the train if we want to keep it and extend it to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/sooners-welcome-amtrak/article_eaa0899c-68ba-58ad-adc0-25cd07d2febb.html

7/11/99 – Yeah, about extending service to Tulsa, it’s going to be hard. Tulsa leaders push ODOT for rail service to Kansas City or St Louis if OKC is not doable
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/derailed/article_88d1f493-2936-5d98-b6b5-8429d6a36839.html

1/19/00 -Heartland Flyer doing very well, BUT, I know we said we would do phase 2 to Tulsa if the train did well, but now we think that extending to Tulsa is REALLY expensive
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/amtrak-route-riding-high/article_c534cb63-47d7-59b9-a44d-9c0f8537b865.html

2/25/00 – Rail service from OKC to Newton, KS is recommended, Tulsa remains “a goal”
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/link-to-tulsa-in-jeopardy/article_b4d65e40-7edc-59fb-b899-2fb46f2e7925.html

3/28/00 – One cent sales tax proposed to extend rail service from OKC to Newton Kansas and HSR to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/passenger-rail-service-senator-pushes-train-plan/article_3cc63fd2-cd8c-5fcd-99b9-a9f1eaa3b15a.html

2/24/01 – ODOT proposes extending the Heartland Flyer, not to Tulsa, but to Newton, KS
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/amtrak-service-backers-hopeful/article_a46141ff-a031-5296-ba06-dfaa8b360824.html

5/10/01 – City of Tulsa releases study showing the cost effectiveness of a Tulsa to Kansas City line. Sen Dave Herbert criticizes Tulsa area legislators who had not backed his one cent gas tax for rail. Study author notes Tulsa had little reason to back the tax after not getting the promised Heartland Flyer phase 2 as required by state law. If this line to Kansas City could be completed, Tulsa area reps could be on board for the tax.
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/outlook-for-rail-service-brightens/article_449db525-fde3-5a2d-b259-63b85dab44a1.html

9/15/01 – The Heartland Flyer sees an expected decrease in riders, ODOT still looking at a phase 2, probably to Newton, KS, or maybe to Tulsa. No mention of Tulsa to Kansas City as an option
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/heartland-flyer-second-year-ridership-figures-decrease/article_d61db2d7-e4ef-5da8-a079-f619269754f8.html

10/24/01 – State Transportation Sec Hershal Crow does not support a Tulsa to Kansas City route. Says it would hurt the Heartland Flyer and isn’t the preferred route by Amtrack, they prefer Newton, KS because of “options”.
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/rail-service-to-tulsa-is-not-on-transportation-chiefs-priority-list/article_074c569d-0f57-525c-ae4e-ee37ad9fd8e6.html

7/29/03 - Oklahoma City’s congressman at the time, who was the chairman of a key transportation subcommittee kills the idea of federal funding for high speed rail to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/istook-is-cool-to-tulsa-oc-rail-link/article_ceda6800-0434-53d6-b54b-bfae09adbf7f.html

8/25/06 – Tulsa’s city council again requests rail service
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/tulsa-approves-resolution-for-amtrak-study/article_c332ebdf-dabf-5668-812e-69b3910d30df.html

12/13/06 Study requested by the city of Tulsa shows that Tulsa to Springfield would required upgrades of $19 million in Oklahoma and $19 million in Missouri vs the $152 million for normal speed track between Tulsa and OKC and $850 million for HSR
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/tulsa-rail-service-study-reviewed/article_7222d3c6-9e62-5668-9854-5ba4b8c6c1e4.html

12/12/06 – Tulsa asks for rail service to Springfield, MO, Amtrak and state officials are against that as it as the Tulsa to OKC plan would instead do more to help the Heartland Flyer. Which is pointless as no money is being spent to fix that option
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/tulsa-and-trains/article_68f8d4ba-c964-5068-af3d-0e1a7e858710.html

1/18/07 - City of Tulsa pushes for federal matching funds to extend the Heartland Flyer to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/federal-matching-funds-may-help-bring-amtrak-to-tulsa/article_5e56d67a-fe06-5b89-8d08-9e6eb1a02a23.html

1/25/07 – City of Broken Arrow pushes study to extend rail service to Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/ba-lawmaker-pushes-study-on-bringing-amtrak-to-tulsa/article_17179d73-ced3-5fc7-b350-537da8630002.html

4/16/07 – Another bill to study (again) Amtrack service to Tulsa is passed and signed into law
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/amtrak-still-in-the-cards/article_77fb7d32-a076-5499-9625-3e3a85f19d9c.html

6/22/08 – The state again is pushing Newton, KS. The City of Tulsa is angry about $200,00 being spent on another rail study to extend service to Newton, KS instead of Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/will-tulsa-ever-get-its-amtrak-ticket/article_edc1e2e3-cc3c-5fad-8c8c-e481736db6c5.html

10/18/13 - State of Oklahoma under Mary Fallin sells the "WATCO" line connecting OKC and Sapulpa
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/potential-rail-line-sale-by-state-opposed/article_9530ec5b-8bc5-566e-9761-10b6dda8d015.html

Tulsa lawmakers should never, ever vote for funding for the Heartland Flyer until ODOT changes and should fight every attempt to extend service to Newton, KS.

Tulsa comes off as a whiny pouty child then by those posts especially the recent one about them not understanding the importance of extending the Heartland Flyer to Newton. That’s more beneficial than an OKC-Tulsa train, IMO. Any train to Tulsa needs to be planned with an extension to STL to truly make it worthwhile.

Meanwhile this might even enable The alone Star line to be revived as well offering a one seat ride from Houston and Chicago through OKC and vice versa.

ODOT also built the new I-244 bridge with a rail component and didn’t care much to do that for OKC when they rebuilt the I-235/I-44 interchange.

I’d side with Catch 22 based on what you posted because it doesn’t seem like they’ve much the last decade which they should be doing more now than ever given recent funding from the feds.

Tulsa comes off as a whiny pouty child then by those posts especially the recent one about them not understanding the importance of extending the Heartland Flyer to Newton. That’s more beneficial than an OKC-Tulsa train, IMO. Any train to Tulsa needs to be planned with an extension to STL to truly make it worthwhile.

Meanwhile this might even enable The alone Star line to be revived as well offering a one seat ride from Houston and Chicago through OKC and vice versa.

ODOT also built the new I-244 bridge with a rail component and didn’t care much to do that for OKC when they rebuilt the I-235/I-44 interchange.

I’d side with Catch 22 based on what you posted because it doesn’t seem like they’ve much the last decade which they should be doing more now than ever given recent funding from the feds.

ODOT is in violation of state law. That has to be cured before any expansion of service, which would only worsen the violation.

ODOT is in violation of state law. That has to be cured before any expansion of service, which would only worsen the violation.

what is the violation??

what is the violation??

As I noted:



6/12/98 – Sen Don Nickles gets $23 million in federal funding for Amtrack service in Oklahoma, service could start in the spring of ’99, four routes are being considered, Ft Worth to OKC to Tulsa, OKC to Newton, KS, Tulsa to Kansas City, Tulsa to St Louis. Tulsa is promised to be included due to a state law passed in 1993 that requires any service with a state subsidy to include Tulsa
https://tulsaworld.com/archive/train...f40169df0.html

As I noted:

do you know what state law that is ?

do you know what state law that is ?

https://www.krmg.com/news/local/krmg-in-depth-tulsa-metro-remains-without-passenger-rail-service-despite-1996-state-statute/2UVBQ4XGQ5AHHPPQIGPL5CDJXI/