My apologies for being pedantic, but the 99-year passenger rights agreement began when BNSF sold the Sooner Sub to ODOT originally back in 1998. At this point, there are approximately 79 years left in this agreement.



This is, unfortunately, incorrect. First: the $3 million earmarked from the most recent Vision Tulsa initiative (https://www.cityoftulsa.org/government/capital-programs/vision-tulsa/vision-projects/) for a train depot is intended to build a recreation of a passenger depot at the site of the Route 66 Village outdoor museum along Southwest Blvd, where one of the original steam locomotives from the Frisco Meteor passenger train is on display - and it is on the opposite side of 244 from the BNSF rail corridor that an OKC-TUL train would use. Second, according to the Tulsa County Assessor's Office (http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R99201920111575&return=close), the depot is currently owned by the Tulsa County Industrial Authority, who bought it in 2004 using Vision 2025 funds (http://vision2025.info/oklahoma-jazz-hall-of-fame/). TCIA then leased it to the Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame for $1 a year for a 99-year term (http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepage2/local-performer-calls-for-change-of-leadership-at-jazz-hall/article_34950855-be13-5b29-9045-c6d18feb01be.html), beginning in 2007. According to an article from Fox 23 (https://www.fox23.com/news/fox23-investigates/fox23-investigates-the-jazz-hall-of-fame-hits-a-sour-note-for-donors/699893525) covering financial troubles with the hall of fame organization, the only way Tulsa County can get out of the lease is if the Jazz Hall of Fame is more than 30 days late on a payment. If the City of Tulsa does somehow manage to regain control of the depot from the County and boot the Jazz Hall of Fame, the original three platforms and the overhead concourse that allowed access to them from the Great Hall of the depot are gone; they were demolished sometime after 1981 when the depot was purchased by the Williams Companies and restored for use for office space. The area where the original platform #1 was is now filled with building mechanical equipment, so when reconstructed, they would be forced to rebuild Platform #2 and the overhead concourse, use a different platform configuration, or move all of the building mechanical to rebuild Platform #1. All of this is to say that restoring Union Depot to a rail use would be more involved than most realize (but it absolutely should be done, if at all possible). You can find current and historical pictures of the depot and it's former platform configuration via the Tulsa Deco District's Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.446893312183777.1073741910.244746749065102&type=3),Lost Tulsa's album on Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/losttulsa/sets/72157612217385006/), and Mike Condren's Railroad Pages (https://condrenrails.com/Tulsa-Railroad-Pages/Stations/Union-Depot.html). However, if the County or City are unable to boot the Jazz Hall of Fame, they will be forced to secure land for, and build, a new depot somewhere along the BNSF alignment between Tulsa Union Depot and Sapulpa (where the passenger rights agreement is in effect).



While Mayor Bynum has voiced support for regaining passenger rail service between Tulsa and OKC, he has devoted few resources to the effort and simply maintained the status quo, just like his predecessor and unlike OKC. There appears to be no City-sponsored effort to gain control of Union Depot, or to secure a location for a new depot. Granted, I'm sure this is partly due to Iowa Pacific's collapse and a lack of confidence that they would be able to implement the passenger service they originally proposed, but the fact remains that the City of Tulsa has done far less than the City of OKC to advance passenger rail in their respective cities. I sincerely hope this changes soon, though I imagine it will strongly depend on responses to WATCO's RFP to find a passenger operator willing to run the route.

What do you know, once again Swake came in guns blazing and was wrong lol.

Baralheia, I hope you write for Wikipedia!

Regarding Bynum and Tulsa, I just don't understand it. I have been working up there for a client pretty regularly and love the place just as much as in the past. Efficient rail connections to it would definitely help make it less of an urban island.

I've heard Bynum himself say that rail isn't worth it, and autonomous vehicles are the future... he said it to a room full of urban planners, no less.

This is, unfortunately, incorrect. First: the $3 million earmarked from the most recent Vision Tulsa initiative (https://www.cityoftulsa.org/government/capital-programs/vision-tulsa/vision-projects/) for a train depot is intended to build a recreation of a passenger depot at the site of the Route 66 Village outdoor museum along Southwest Blvd, where one of the original steam locomotives from the Frisco Meteor passenger train is on display - and it is on the opposite side of 244 from the BNSF rail corridor that an OKC-TUL train would use. Second, according to the Tulsa County Assessor's Office (http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R99201920111575&return=close), the depot is currently owned by the Tulsa County Industrial Authority, who bought it in 2004 using Vision 2025 funds (http://vision2025.info/oklahoma-jazz-hall-of-fame/). TCIA then leased it to the Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame for $1 a year for a 99-year term (http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepage2/local-performer-calls-for-change-of-leadership-at-jazz-hall/article_34950855-be13-5b29-9045-c6d18feb01be.html), beginning in 2007. According to an article from Fox 23 (https://www.fox23.com/news/fox23-investigates/fox23-investigates-the-jazz-hall-of-fame-hits-a-sour-note-for-donors/699893525) covering financial troubles with the hall of fame organization, the only way Tulsa County can get out of the lease is if the Jazz Hall of Fame is more than 30 days late on a payment. If the City of Tulsa does somehow manage to regain control of the depot from the County and boot the Jazz Hall of Fame, the original three platforms and the overhead concourse that allowed access to them from the Great Hall of the depot are gone; they were demolished sometime after 1981 when the depot was purchased by the Williams Companies and restored for use for office space. The area where the original platform #1 was is now filled with building mechanical equipment, so when reconstructed, they would be forced to rebuild Platform #2 and the overhead concourse, use a different platform configuration, or move all of the building mechanical to rebuild Platform #1. All of this is to say that restoring Union Depot to a rail use would be more involved than most realize (but it absolutely should be done, if at all possible). You can find current and historical pictures of the depot and it's former platform configuration via the Tulsa Deco District's Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.446893312183777.1073741910.244746749065102&type=3),Lost Tulsa's album on Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/losttulsa/sets/72157612217385006/), and Mike Condren's Railroad Pages (https://condrenrails.com/Tulsa-Railroad-Pages/Stations/Union-Depot.html). However, if the County or City are unable to boot the Jazz Hall of Fame, they will be forced to secure land for, and build, a new depot somewhere along the BNSF alignment between Tulsa Union Depot and Sapulpa (where the passenger rights agreement is in effect).

Union Depot in its heydey
https://condrenrails.com/Frisco/Frisco%20Stations/Tulsa,%20OK.jpg

Union Depot in its current form as the OK Jazz HOF
https://condrenrails.com/Recent-Trains/images-66/Tulsa-Union-Depot-Tulsa-OK-3-12-10-1.jpg

The mechanical equipment that would have to be relocated per baralheia's post.
https://condrenrails.com/Recent-Trains/images-66/Tulsa-Union-Depot-Tulsa-OK-3-12-10-3.jpg

New platforms would have to be built (similar to OKC's Santa Fe Depot)
https://www.okc.gov/Home/ShowImage?id=8916&t=636432406676700000

I've heard Bynum himself say that rail isn't worth it, and autonomous vehicles are the future... he said it to a room full of urban planners, no less.

I’ve heard that from him too and though i think that’s a possibility, I just don’t seem that happening for awhile at least not in a capacity that would as widly available as rail transit between the two cities.

So yes Swake, this is your mayor’s fault, not OKC’s.

I've heard Bynum himself say that rail isn't worth it, and autonomous vehicles are the future... he said it to a room full of urban planners, no less.

Can anyone explain the logic behind Bynum's argument to me? While I don't see autonomous vehicles being mainstream any time soon for a variety of reasons, if anything I would think rail and autonomous vehicles are complementary or neutral at worst, but definitely not mutually exclusive. I like the thought of being able to take a train to Tulsa and then hop in an autonomous vehicle operated by a ride share company.

Can anyone explain the logic behind Bynum's argument to me? While I don't see autonomous vehicles being mainstream any time soon for a variety of reasons, if anything I would think rail and autonomous vehicles are complementary or neutral at worst, but definitely not mutually exclusive. I like the thought of being able to take a train to Tulsa and then hop in an autonomous vehicle operated by a ride share company.

The excitement and acceptance related to autonomous vehicles runs from "they are anything and everything and will fix the world TOMORROW" to "never going to catch on." Some politicians and techo-lovers are fully on board with a savior's mindset, which I just do not understand. The complexity and systems required for them to make any difference is still a couple decades away, while we have rail now. It might take a couple years to start up a rail connection, but it'll take 10 times as long to start up autonomous connections. And even with autonomous, the economy of scale for long trips just seems too far off. Short trips, maybe it'll work fine...

^ Agreed. I think they will be great in certain situations, but I still haven't had someone that is very pro-autonomous vehicles coherently explain to me how they are going to change society's behavior to the point where no other form of transportation is necessary. Not trying to hijack the thread, but if city leaders such as Mayor Bynum are going to advance the argument that we should not invest in developing rail (or other alternative forms of transportation) because autonomous vehicles "are on the way" I believe it deserves some discussion so that hopefully people will begin to push back and/or question his premise.

So the rights to come into downtown Tulsa already exist, the state owns those rights for 99 years. And from the last years Vision project Tulsa has money for a new station. And while that new station has not yet been built, Tulsa's Union Station still exists, is fully remodeled and is owned by the city. All you would have to do to use Union is to build a platform at ground level to the tracks, and that could be done in a matter of weeks.

So serious question, how is Tulsa the hold up here? You can Blame Bynum all you want for some random comments on a radio show last year but he's also made other statements that have been supportive of rail. How can this be on Bynum when he's only been mayor for two years while Tulsa has been promised rail service since the late 90s when Bynum must have been a teenager. The reality remains that the state spends millions a year to support rail to OKC, and nothing to Tulsa.

Here’s a news story from Fox 23 in Tulsa. In the video, several current and past city leaders and rail advocates all say that OKC’s leaders have made a strong effort to get the train moving forward, but that Tulsa’s leadership is lacking and has been part of the hold up.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.fox23.com/www.fox23.com/news/fox23-investigates/fox23-investigates-train-to-connect-tulsa-to-okc-could-get-derailed/649265972

^ Agreed. I think they will be great in certain situations, but I still haven't had someone that is very pro-autonomous vehicles coherently explain to me how they are going to change society's behavior to the point where no other form of transportation is necessary. Not trying to hijack the thread, but if city leaders such as Mayor Bynum are going to advance the argument that we should not invest in developing rail (or other alternative forms of transportation) because autonomous vehicles "are on the way" I believe it deserves some discussion so that hopefully people will begin to push back and/or question his premise.

I wonder if it's also just an easy excuse to avoid working on a hard problem or something that some people just don't really care about...?

Baralheia, I hope you write for Wikipedia!

Regarding Bynum and Tulsa, I just don't understand it. I have been working up there for a client pretty regularly and love the place just as much as in the past. Efficient rail connections to it would definitely help make it less of an urban island.

Haha, thanks! I have made a few edits here and there, but I'm not a regular contributor. I'm just a total nerd for trains - especially passenger rail - and I love these old passenger depots. I travel by Amtrak whenever possible because I'm just that much of a train nerd, and I enjoy the heck out of it. I missed my opportunity to be on one of the original demonstration trains that Iowa Pacific ran to Tulsa back in 2014, but you better believe I'm going to be on the first regularly scheduled train up there! That's a route I've wanted to ride for a long, long time.

As for Tulsa and their last two mayors... I kinda get it. I suspect that Tulsa is just being overly cautious, and Tulsa will get the ball rolling on their end of the connection once passenger operations have a more concrete plan. I mean, the State has been talking about restoring passenger rail service between OKC and TUL for... Gosh, 23 years or so, I think? If memory serves, the Oklahoma Tourism and Passenger Rail Act of 1995 included a provision requiring the state to re-establish passenger service between OKC and Tulsa, but did not set a deadline or devote funding specifically for that purpose. Then most recently, Iowa Pacific stepped in and started talking big about what they wanted to do for the Eastern Flyer - an effort that faltered after IPRR decided to go take over the Hoosier State train from Amtrak, and then ultimately crashed and burned when IPRR ran into financial difficulties and began shuttering passenger and excursion operations across their system. So I can understand being hesitant to move forward until plans for passenger rail are more concrete than they are now. It sucks, because I'm of the mind that if they want the train, they need to fight for it, but I can understand the caution.

And you know, for all the flak that ODOT gets, ODOT's Rail Programs Division had a lot of foresight here. In 1998, BNSF wanted to scrap the Sooner Sub entirely, and ODOT bought it from BNSF at scrap value to preserve the corridor for freight and passenger traffic, and then further secured passenger rights from the northeastern terminus of the Sooner Sub in Sapulpa, through Cherokee Yard, to a point immediately northeast of the Union Depot in downtown Tulsa. The hard work of securing access for the train into downtown was already done for Tulsa. All Tulsa needs now is the physical place for those trains to stop and pick up/drop off passengers when the train starts rolling. It's (arguably) less work than OKC has left; to my knowledge, neither the City of OKC nor the State have yet secured passenger rights from the southwestern terminus of the Sooner Sub, at the "Midwest City" interlocker (https://goo.gl/maps/9rPGnSPv6bz) (the junction between the Sooner Sub and the UP line to Shawnee), westward through UP's Harter Yard and then across the northern edge of Bricktown to the BNSF viaduct. Hopefully we can get that access secured and the corridor rebuilt once plans to get the passenger trains rolling firm up.


What do you know, once again Swake came in guns blazing and was wrong lol.

Now, now, Swake wasn't entirely wrong, and I appreciate his passion. To me, his position seems to be that a passenger train to (or through) Tulsa really should stop at Union Depot, and honestly I agree. Union Depot is an actively used building in good repair, and last received renovations in 2004-2007 for the Jazz Hall of Fame, so aside from the significant exterior work to rebuild at least one platform and maybe the overhead concourse, not much interior work would be required to return the station to a passenger use. But the City of Tulsa needs to fight for it to make it happen. From what I understand, the Jazz Hall of Fame is regularly behind on their lease payments - far enough behind that if the political will were there, TCIA could exercise their right to evict them. This would provide a much easier path for the City to then acquire the building, or partner with the County to get the ball rolling on restoring the station's platforms.

Found a news article confirming that the WATCO RFP specifies a 10 year contract term for the winning bidder, and that the initial service might not be downtown-to-downtown, but they expect that to come afterwards as a Phase 2 expansion of service.


Effective Thursday June 21, 2018, in a 12 page document, WATCO Companies L.L.C. of Pittsburg, Kansas, issued a Request for Proposal to begin the process of securing a private rail carrier to provide passenger service for an initial period of 10 years between downtown Tulsa and the newly reconfigured Santa Fe Hub in Oklahoma City.

Sources confirm the project will roll out in two phases and the route will extend from downtown Tulsa through the cities of Sapulpa, Bristow, Stroud, Chandler and Midwest City into downtown OKC, along the old Sooner Sub track‎.

In 2011, the legislature passed House Bill 1686, the Eastern Flyer Passenger Rail Development Task Force, to study possibilities for linking the Heartland Flyer to the Sub line, which was owned at the time by the state of Oklahoma.

To advance the project, the state ultimately sold the line to Watco. Currently, Watco's Stillwater Central operates freight service over the line but upgrades will be made to accommodate higher speeds for passenger cars. With federal requirements for the installation of Positive Train Control taking effect, WATCO will face its first hurdle in funding that automatic braking system.

“I’m excited about this next big step in bringing passenger rail service to Tulsa. It’s now critical that local leadership in Tulsa come to the table, just as leaders in Oklahoma City already have. This is a fantastic economic development opportunity for Tulsa and great for families traveling the state. I could not be more thrilled with this announcement and remain committed to seeing this important project to completion," said Rep. Monroe Nichols, D-Tulsa.

In 2017, Nichols and Rep. Forrest Bennett, D-OKC, held an interim study 17-107 and 17-081 at which a legal opinion was introduced to clarify and confirm the existing statutory basis giving rights of a passenger carrier on the Eastern Flyer route to enter both the downtown Tulsa and downtown OKC areas. This point and others are to be discussed in upcoming meetings.

“This is great news for a variety of reasons but first and foremost, this is going to mean greater mobility for people who otherwise don’t have it: Oklahomans living in one city who have job opportunities or family in the other. It’s no secret that Oklahoma lags behind when it comes to mass public transit, but I firmly believe that the positive impact of passenger rail service will be felt far and wide, once this is implemented, and further investment will quickly follow. See you on the train!” Rep. Forrest Bennett said, upon learning of the RFP.

Bennett’s District 92 is home to the Santa Fe Depot Hub in Bricktown – OKC.

When the state sold the line to Watco, the contract contained an exit clause allowing the company to pay a substantial fine and walk away from providing the passenger service. Watco is keeping its promise to make every effort to return passenger rail service to all Oklahoman's including the 7000 online members of the Eastern Flyer website. Daily business travel between the two big cities represents all kinds of economic opportunities, especially the potential for a kind of ‘regional tourism’ at levels like Branson and Pawhuska; examples of awakened small town economies, but, in this case, with the opportunity to partake of the experience by riding a train.

“This is encouraging news. I am excited to work with my Tulsa Colleague Representative Monroe Nichols and other legislators interested in exploring passenger rail service to Tulsa," said Sen. Kevin Matthews, D-Tulsa. "Rail service would enhance our current tourism efforts taking place throughout the downtown area.”

"The Oklahoma Tourism and Passenger Rail Act O.S. 66-322 and O.S. 66-235 is a tool available for use by communities and lawmakers to strengthen state and local tax bases," said Passenger Rail Oklahoma President Evan Stair. "With rail expansion restored, economic viability will emerge, crucial to essential services such as education. Our eight year journey along the Route 66 corridor, coupled with strong legislative and community leadership, will usher in a new era of travel choice. We will again enjoy the freedom to choose travel mode — a hallmark of our new millennium.”

WATCO Companies L.L.C. was formed in Pittsburg, Kansas as a transportation company in 1983 by Charles R. Webb. Watco and is composed of four divisions: transportation, mechanical, terminal and port services, and compliance.
Source: http://www.normantranscript.com/news/passenger-rail-will-return-connecting-tulsa-to-okc/article_c99c53b2-763d-11e8-b116-ab1352191997.html

So the rights to come into downtown Tulsa already exist, the state owns those rights for 99 years. And from the last years Vision project Tulsa has money for a new station. And while that new station has not yet been built, Tulsa's Union Station still exists, is fully remodeled and is owned by the city. All you would have to do to use Union is to build a platform at ground level to the tracks, and that could be done in a matter of weeks.

So serious question, how is Tulsa the hold up here? You can Blame Bynum all you want for some random comments on a radio show last year but he's also made other statements that have been supportive of rail. How can this be on Bynum when he's only been mayor for two years while Tulsa has been promised rail service since the late 90s when Bynum must have been a teenager. The reality remains that the state spends millions a year to support rail to OKC, and nothing to Tulsa.

Swake, I owe you an apology - I was absolutely wrong. The City of Tulsa DID commit money towards an intermodal transit hub downtown as part of Vision Tulsa. When reading up before my first reply to you, I completely missed this bit at the very bottom of the Vision Tulsa page:


Vision funds also will provide money to begin the development of a multi-modal transit hub in downtown Tulsa adjacent to the rail corridor. A study will be completed to determine where the facility should be located and what elements it should include. Also, the money is likely to be used for property acquisition and/or as matching funds for federal grants.
Source: https://www.cityoftulsa.org/government/capital-programs/vision-tulsa/vision-projects/

It looks like Vision Tulsa is devoting $25MM to transit improvements (http://tulsacouncil.org/media/115177/VisionProposalSummary(1-27-16).pdf), including a BRT line, a downtown circulator, and this transit hub. Now, I can't yet find any recent information about this project, but if it's anything like the idea pitched in 2015 by Tulsa city councilor Blake Ewing, it would involve capping the railroad tracks between Boulder Ave and Detroit Ave, installing rail platforms at track level, as well as a bus concourse, and then landscaping the top of the cap. It would be centered around the Center of the Universe, and could still use the Union Depot for the passenger rail operations. More info here: https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/center-of-the-universe-transit-hub-pitched-for-vision-funding/article_23014592-92a3-57bf-b2aa-3a5cf095ce6f.html and here: https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/architecture-firm-takes-councilors-vision-for-a-transit-hub-to-another-level/

Seriously bad news

http://www.guthrienewsleader.net/lifestyle/oklahoma-s-passenger-train-service-on-the-line/article_6188594c-b869-11e8-8c71-a3514430014f.html

Seriously bad news

http://www.guthrienewsleader.net/lifestyle/oklahoma-s-passenger-train-service-on-the-line/article_6188594c-b869-11e8-8c71-a3514430014f.html

What do you expect from Richard Anderson? He was the CEO of Delta and his strategy was to funnel every passenger through Atlanta, and shrink markets that are not on the coasts.

He should have stayed in the private sector.

What do you expect from Richard Anderson? He was the CEO of Delta and his strategy was to funnel every passenger through Atlanta, and shrink markets that are not on the coasts.

He should have stayed in the private sector.
Came here to post just this. Anderson was a **** at Delta - him being the boss at Amtrak is terrible news for the rest of us.

Came here to post just this. Anderson was a **** at Delta - him being the boss at Amtrak is terrible news for the rest of us.

Yeah. The interim Amtrak CEO before him was fantastic, and rail fans hoped he would help pick a great replacement. Anderson is not - he's making enemies across many fronts. This is the problem with the "run government like a business" scenario. Yes, Amtrak and the USPS are "businesses," but they exist to provide a public good. Sometimes a public good requires more investment than a business would spend, and that's OK.

^^^^^^^
If we ran state and interstate highway systems "like a business" privately-owned railroads would still be the way most people and goods would travel between cities. And in fact freight is STILL a preferred method of travel for many products for much of their journey. The fact of the matter is that taxpayers subsidize pretty much all modes of travel, and for good reason. The public subsidy argument against rail is a massive straw man argument and total misdirection.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/11/23/u-s-finally-legalizes-modern-european-style-train-cars/


This week, the Federal Railroad Administration finalized new safety rules that bring American standards more in line with those used in Europe — changes that will save American commuter rail operators money and passengers time. Under the new rules, old, heavy trains can now be replaced with lighter, sleeker, more-modern models.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/11/23/u-s-finally-legalizes-modern-european-style-train-cars/

This has been in the works for a while and will dramatically change perceptions about commuter rail. Here's the new "FLIRT" DMU manufactured by the Swiss company Stadler Rail for Ft. Worth's new commuter rail line to DFW.

15043

The trains looks and functions much like a Light Rail vehicle, but it can operate in mixed traffic on existing freight tracks, as a result of the new FRA regulations. This is a sleek-looking, low-floor vehicle that has acceleration similar to Light Rail. As a result, more stations can be developed closer together than previously workable with heavier commuter train locomotives and passenger cars. This is what we need to be working toward for the future OKC regional transit system

Doesn't this mean we can now put streetcars on the heavy rail (to, say, go to the airport) or am I mixing things up?

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/11/23/u-s-finally-legalizes-modern-european-style-train-cars/
^That seems like a big step forward that could improve service.

What are the possibilities of a train like this being used for special events that would take people to places like the DFW area and back…

I wish Amtrak made a stop where a connection with a much quicker bus shuttle than exist now could take you to the DFW airport. The set up now takes way too much time.

The last thing we need is easier access to DFW.

Doesn't this mean we can now put streetcars on the heavy rail (to, say, go to the airport) or am I mixing things up?

Most light rail vehicles, including streetcars, currently used in the US would still not meet the revised FRA safety standards for mixed-traffic operations. What the new regulations do allow for are more modern, European-style train sets, like the Stadler Rail FLIRT DMU, that are lighter and faster than the heavy-rail locomotive train sets typically used in the US.

The last thing we need is easier access to DFW.

Why do you say that?

Why do you say that?

Because in the long term, that reduces our flight options here in OKC and makes them more expensive (due to fewer butts in seats); it also makes it harder to get new routes, if people can just skip down to the DFW airport instead. It's better to incentivize airlines to provide better and cheaper options from OKC when possible. More important for the future of passenger rail in Oklahoma is extension of the Heartland Flyer's current route to at least Newton, KS (to meet up with the Southwest Chief) - and doubling the frequency too - as well as a train from Tulsa to OKC (and eventually down to Lawton, too).

Why do you say that?

I’m thinking the same thing. Easier access to one of the largest economies in the US is a bad thing how? Because might loose some flights? I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

I’m thinking the same thing. Easier access to one of the largest economies in the US is a bad thing how? Because might loose some flights? I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

I’m like you… The more options we have that speed up and cheapen our travel for the public the better as far as I’m concerned.

DFW is significantly cheaper to fly out of and the world is virtually only a flight away…. This is one way we move OKC closer to the world IMHO. We will never see the flight options that DFW has in our lifetimes in OKC.

The Heartland Flyer goes right by the Texas Motor Speedway and the Fort Worth Alliance Airport, with its large industrial complex which would attract train riders...With a train stop nearby I would bet a bus shuttle service with limited stops to the DFW airport would be viable…It would knock a considerable amount of time off of what is now required and build a case to improve speeds for the train.
I would be more likely to take a faster train to the DFW area and if needed rent a car at the airport.

Even better for Fort Worth and OKC, but IIRC, they are building a commuter rail line specifically for this route. It’s under construction and going to connect Union Station in Fort Worth to DFW rail station.

OKC is blessed to be so close to such a major cosmopolitan city like DFW. We aren’t getting bigger than they are, so let’s be their friend and not the enemy.

What you want exists already. Currently you can take the Heartland Flyer to Ft Worth and then hop on TRE train (same station) and there's an airport stop. From that stop there's a shuttle bus that goes to the airport.

https://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/dfw-airport/

What you want exists already. Currently you can take the Heartland Flyer to Ft Worth and then hop on TRE train (same station) and there's an airport stop. From that stop there's a shuttle bus that goes to the airport.

https://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/dfw-airport/
It takes too long. I’ve done it several times. It’s almost worth hitting up the orange line and going all the way to Dallas then hitting up the TRE.

Just saying its been asked for and it exists. And this isn't an HSR thread. :-)

It takes too long. I’ve done it several times. It’s almost worth hitting up the orange line and going all the way to Dallas then hitting up the TRE.

The new TEXRail commuter line that opens January 5th goes directly from where the Heartland Flyer ends at the Fort Worth ITC, straight to the airport. It's Fort Worth's copy of the DART Orange Line, but over heavy rail instead of light rail.

Nice! Even better!

The new TEXRail commuter line that opens January 5th goes directly from where the Heartland Flyer ends at the Fort Worth ITC, straight to the airport. It's Fort Worth's copy of the DART Orange Line, but over heavy rail instead of light rail.
Yeah okay I thought that was in the works but wasn’t 100 percent sure.

The new TEXRail commuter line that opens January 5th goes directly from where the Heartland Flyer ends at the Fort Worth ITC, straight to the airport. It's Fort Worth's copy of the DART Orange Line, but over heavy rail instead of light rail.

Thank you very much for that Information….However speed is still a major concern IMHO.
It seems driving would ordinarily be much faster.
This is why I suggested creating a new train / bus stop near HY 114 which takes you directly to the DFW airport. I would guess this would save well over an hour over taking the new train.

I believe the new train will eventually be expanded to the SW to near the TCU campus but I’m unclear when that might occur?

Thank you very much for that Information….However speed is still a major concern IMHO.
It seems driving would ordinarily be much faster.
This is why I suggested creating a new train / bus stop near HY 114 which takes you directly to the DFW airport. I would guess this would save well over an hour over taking the new train.

I believe the new train will eventually be expanded to the SW to near the TCU campus but I’m unclear when that might occur?
The long range plan for the Fort Worth to DFW rail line could include electrification.

Still think we are 15-20 years from breaking ground on HSR in OKC.

Also, let's help grow our own airport which could become a future hub for Tulsa & Wichita.

Thank you very much for that Information….However speed is still a major concern IMHO.
It seems driving would ordinarily be much faster.
This is why I suggested creating a new train / bus stop near HY 114 which takes you directly to the DFW airport. I would guess this would save well over an hour over taking the new train.

I believe the new train will eventually be expanded to the SW to near the TCU campus but I’m unclear when that might occur?

Honestly, a quick airport connection from the Heartland Flyer is an almost nonexistent priority for TxDOT, ODOT, and Amtrak, given that an airport connection is already available (well, will be within a month) from the Fort Worth ITC. It makes little financial sense to funnel travelers down to DFW and away from OKC. It's far more important to grow our own airport, as well as push resources into expanding the Heartland Flyer's route to Newton and/or Tulsa.

Honestly, a quick airport connection from the Heartland Flyer is an almost nonexistent priority for TxDOT, ODOT, and Amtrak, given that an airport connection is already available (well, will be within a month) from the Fort Worth ITC. It makes little financial sense to funnel travelers down to DFW and away from OKC. It's far more important to grow our own airport, as well as push resources into expanding the Heartland Flyer's route to Newton and/or Tulsa.

Newton is a must! That will open so many feasible routes for OKC travelers

The most ideal track to Tulsa would run straight along I-44 on its own dedicated tracks. Would likely be billions. Wouldn’t have to be 200+ MPH but 120MPH or so would be workable. The proposed eastern flyer is a joke as is.

The Heartland Flyer to Dallas should be 5-6x each way, per day to make it more convenient. 3-4 at the least. They also need newer trains and perhaps include a bar and better eating area inside of the train.

Newton is a must! That will open so many feasible routes for OKC travelers

The most ideal track to Tulsa would run straight along I-44 on its own dedicated tracks. Would likely be billions. Wouldn’t have to be 200+ MPH but 120MPH or so would be workable. The proposed eastern flyer is a joke as is.

The Heartland Flyer to Dallas should be 5-6x each way, per day to make it more convenient. 3-4 at the least. They also need newer trains and perhaps include a bar and better eating area inside of the train.

I can only agree to that.

The train to the Metroplex should be around 100mph. It is pretty standard for an express intercity train.
Now it is still over 4 hours to do the trip. It s very third world like !

Newton is a must! That will open so many feasible routes for OKC travelers

The most ideal track to Tulsa would run straight along I-44 on its own dedicated tracks. Would likely be billions. Wouldn’t have to be 200+ MPH but 120MPH or so would be workable. The proposed eastern flyer is a joke as is.

The Heartland Flyer to Dallas should be 5-6x each way, per day to make it more convenient. 3-4 at the least. They also need newer trains and perhaps include a bar and better eating area inside of the train.

An extension to Newton for the Heartland Flyer will be nothing short of transformational for that service. Not only will it give us in OKC more options in our connections to the national passenger rail network, but overhead traffic will increase as well; on it's current schedule, a single train shuttling back and forth between Fort Worth and Newton, via OKC, perfectly interfaces with the schedules for the Texas Eagle and the Southwest Chief. Given that both Newton and Fort Worth offer checked baggage service, sufficient overhead traffic could enable us to have checked baggage service here in OKC as well (and I know that's in the long-range plan for Santa Fe Station, assuming funding is available). Such an extension would serve to strengthen the national passenger rail network as well, giving passengers flexibility and options they wouldn't have before, even if their destination wasn't in Oklahoma.

As for the Eastern Flyer, you're right - studies have already identified that the ideal option is to build a railway along most of I-44. Even at normal US passenger speeds of 80mph, it's a superior route than the ex-Frisco route to Tulsa (the Sooner Sub). But that's going to cost a LOT of money, as you noted. The Sooner Sub is still a viable route, and would still be adequate to get service going; Frisco ran that route for decades (both the Meteor and the Will Rogers trains), making the trip in as little as 2 hours and 20 minutes. With the right amenities, the right departure times, and sufficient frequency, a new service over this same line would still work, and work well. Trains aren't about getting to your destination as quickly as possible; if you want that, take a flight. Trains are about getting to your destination unburdened by the travel experience.

As for increased frequency of service... I just don't think there's enough demand now or in the near future to warrant that level of service, even though I'd love to see it. That would be a higher frequency of service than OKC enjoyed even during the peak of the passenger rail era. Personally, I'd be more than happy with 2x-day service in each direction (so each stop sees 4 trains daily); have one train in Newton start south, and one train in Fort Worth start north, at the same time. This would give each community along the line 2 trains a day in each direction, approximately 12 hours apart.


I can only agree to that.

The train to the Metroplex should be around 100mph. It is pretty standard for an express intercity train.
Now it is still over 4 hours to do the trip. It s very third world like !

Just FYI, the current maximum speed of the Heartland Flyer is 80mph, and it does every bit of that for a majority of the 206-mile route. When you take into account in station stops at the intermediate cities, the train averages about 52mph. Part of the problem with making it go faster is that Amtrak doesn't own the rails that the Heartland Flyer uses - that's owned by BNSF. They maintain their trackage through Oklahoma City at Class 4 standards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_speed_limits_in_the_United_States), which allows freight to travel at up to 60mph and passenger trains to travel at up to 80mph. When you start going beyond Class 4, infrastructure costs get much, much higher as tighter tolerances are required, and additional safety mechanisms are needed - stuff that really isn't necessary for freight. As a result, freight operators like BNSF are extremely reluctant to put significant sums of money into upgrading lines to standards that only passenger trains will really take advantage of. The only real way to get around this would be for the passenger operators to own their own rails - either by Amtrak buying lines, or having the railroad companies take back operation of passenger trains like they used to do back in the day. Unfortunately, I just don't really see either happening.

Not that I think Oklahoma would spring for this, but could states build and maintain their own tracks and lease them back to Amtrak?

States own and maintain the Interstate Highways, could we end up with Interstate Railways?

Not that I think Oklahoma would spring for this, but could states build and maintain their own tracks and lease them back to Amtrak?

States own and maintain the Interstate Highways, could we end up with Interstate Railways?
New Mexico did it with Albuquerque and Santa Fe.

New Mexico did it with Albuquerque and Santa Fe.

Yeah, it's not unheard of. I believe California does this in some areas too; to my knowledge, CalTrans owns some ROW and a lot of the equipment for in-state routes, and contracts with Amtrak to operate the service.

An extension to Newton for the Heartland Flyer will be nothing short of transformational for that service. Not only will it give us in OKC more options in our connections to the national passenger rail network, but overhead traffic will increase as well; on it's current schedule, a single train shuttling back and forth between Fort Worth and Newton, via OKC, perfectly interfaces with the schedules for the Texas Eagle and the Southwest Chief. Given that both Newton and Fort Worth offer checked baggage service, sufficient overhead traffic could enable us to have checked baggage service here in OKC as well (and I know that's in the long-range plan for Santa Fe Station, assuming funding is available). Such an extension would serve to strengthen the national passenger rail network as well, giving passengers flexibility and options they wouldn't have before, even if their destination wasn't in Oklahoma.

As for the Eastern Flyer, you're right - studies have already identified that the ideal option is to build a railway along most of I-44. Even at normal US passenger speeds of 80mph, it's a superior route than the ex-Frisco route to Tulsa (the Sooner Sub). But that's going to cost a LOT of money, as you noted. The Sooner Sub is still a viable route, and would still be adequate to get service going; Frisco ran that route for decades (both the Meteor and the Will Rogers trains), making the trip in as little as 2 hours and 20 minutes. With the right amenities, the right departure times, and sufficient frequency, a new service over this same line would still work, and work well. Trains aren't about getting to your destination as quickly as possible; if you want that, take a flight. Trains are about getting to your destination unburdened by the travel experience.

As for increased frequency of service... I just don't think there's enough demand now or in the near future to warrant that level of service, even though I'd love to see it. That would be a higher frequency of service than OKC enjoyed even during the peak of the passenger rail era. Personally, I'd be more than happy with 2x-day service in each direction (so each stop sees 4 trains daily); have one train in Newton start south, and one train in Fort Worth start north, at the same time. This would give each community along the line 2 trains a day in each direction, approximately 12 hours apart.



Just FYI, the current maximum speed of the Heartland Flyer is 80mph, and it does every bit of that for a majority of the 206-mile route. When you take into account in station stops at the intermediate cities, the train averages about 52mph. Part of the problem with making it go faster is that Amtrak doesn't own the rails that the Heartland Flyer uses - that's owned by BNSF. They maintain their trackage through Oklahoma City at Class 4 standards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_speed_limits_in_the_United_States), which allows freight to travel at up to 60mph and passenger trains to travel at up to 80mph. When you start going beyond Class 4, infrastructure costs get much, much higher as tighter tolerances are required, and additional safety mechanisms are needed - stuff that really isn't necessary for freight. As a result, freight operators like BNSF are extremely reluctant to put significant sums of money into upgrading lines to standards that only passenger trains will really take advantage of. The only real way to get around this would be for the passenger operators to own their own rails - either by Amtrak buying lines, or having the railroad companies take back operation of passenger trains like they used to do back in the day. Unfortunately, I just don't really see either happening.
The Frisco had a whole passenger dept to support their trains as well as budgeting for the track department to keep the track up. That doesn’t exist on the SLWC. The BNSF has it’s own interests in freight, and Amtrak is paying for the 79 mph. And with all the speed restrictions on curves, switches, cities, plus meeting the freight trains, it’s still 1979 schedules. I remember we had ATS, automatic train stop on the ATSF 40 years ago.

If they don’t want to spend the billions needed on track modifications to allow faster speeds, it would at least be nice if they come up with an interim plan to buy new trains and increase service frequency to 2x daily each way(preferably 3x but I don’t want to push it). These train in Quebec are new similar to Brightline trains in the Florida. I’ve yet to ride on one, but will be doing so soon. This would make the 4 hour journey much better.



https://youtu.be/5UYBk5ZX30w

It would be super nice if you could head down to Ft Worth at 5 on Friday (instead of either losing a day of work or losing half of Saturday), or vice versa if you felt like coming back earlier on Sunday after a quick weekend trip down there.

It really would. Even just increasing it to 2x daily each way one in the morning and one afternoon would make a worlds difference.

I know increased frequency and an extension to Newton are ODOT's top two goals for the Heartland Flyer, but money to make it happen is a big issue right now. The state is already barely meeting it's financial obligation to Amtrak for the train we currently have, and it will likely require the state legislature to agree to increase funding in order to make that happen. I'm not saying I don't want it, but there are some significant financial hurdles to overcome first. I really hope something can be done.

Recent stuff on Heartland Flyer expansion out of Kansas:

https://www.ksn.com/news/local/city-leaders-in-dc-to-talk-about-funding/1844371996

It looks like the Heartland Flyer extension could be a reality as soon as 2020:

https://www.kwch.com/content/news/Amtrak-requests-funding-to-extend--507599721.html

It looks like the Heartland Flyer extension could be a reality as soon as 2020:

https://www.kwch.com/content/news/Amtrak-requests-funding-to-extend--507599721.html

It's important to note this would only happen if Congress increased Amtrak's appropriation for FY2020 from current levels, and even then it'd only fast-track the expansion project - not necessarily guarantee service to begin in 2020.

What Amtrak has specifically outlined in their FY2020 budget request is an overall funding request of $1.8 billion to maintain the NEC and the National Network. However, for the last two years, Congress has actually appropriated $1.941 billion to Amtrak, and so in this budget request they listed other projects that could be funded were Congress to continue to appropriate funds above Amtrak's actual budget request. If they maintained the current funding level, the amount over their ask ($141 million) would be immediately earmarked for certain capitol improvement projects, mostly along the NEC. Were Congress to increase appropriations above the current level, Amtrak listed further projects they consider high priority that such funding could be used for. These items include new locomotives and the replacement of Amfleet I cars, as well as route restorations and new routes - including a Heartland Flyer extension to Newton, KS and an additional frequency. That said, Amtrak notes that their augmented funding project list is "illustrative" - intended to show priorities but not committing to those listed projects.

You can read Amtrak's full budget request for FY2020 here: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/reports/Amtrak-General-Legislative-Annual-Report-FY2020-Grant-Request.pdf

Further reading about the Heartland Flyer component of Amtrak's FY2020 budget request: http://texasrailadvocates.org/2019/03/23/amtraks-2020-grant-request-shows-plan-for-heartland-flyer-expansion/

https://newsok.com/article/5626856/rail-extension-to-kansas-included-in-amtrak-proposal

I’ve heard that there is a bill that looks to create a new department in the Oklahoma state government for mass transit taking away that current responsibility from OkDOT.

https://newsok.com/article/5626856/rail-extension-to-kansas-included-in-amtrak-proposal

I’ve heard that there is a bill that looks to create a new department in the Oklahoma state government for mass transit taking away that current responsibility from OkDOT.

HB1365 creates the Office of Mobility and Public Transit within the Department of Transportation. The title and enacting clause are off which means it will have to pass the Senate and go to a conference committee where the final form is anyone's guess.

https://newsok.com/article/5626856/rail-extension-to-kansas-included-in-amtrak-proposal

I’ve heard that there is a bill that looks to create a new department in the Oklahoma state government for mass transit taking away that current responsibility from OkDOT.

I can see that being a good or bad thing. I lean towards it sounds good on paper, but will be bad in practice, unless it includes a specific ongoing funding source for projects.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5637921/hopes-dashed-for-passenger-rail-service-linking-oklahoma-city-and-tulsa

https://twitter.com/samjmintz/status/1318910466798780416

The map is a little confusing because some existing lines are colored like new lines, but my interpretation of that is that Amtrak takes over Flyer operations from Oklahoma and Texas.

https://twitter.com/samjmintz/status/1318910466798780416

The map is a little confusing because some existing lines are colored like new lines, but my interpretation of that is that Amtrak takes over Flyer operations from Oklahoma and Texas.

Do you mean funding? Because Amtrak operates the route but OK/TX provides the funds.

Do you mean funding? Because Amtrak operates the route but OK/TX provides the funds.

Amtrak runs all intercity trains, and they are not going to run OKC-TUL, on a 25mph dark railroad, that means no signal protection for non railroaders.

Do you mean funding? Because Amtrak operates the route but OK/TX provides the funds.

yes