Representatives Monroe Nichols and Forrest Bennett to host an interim study on solutions for getting the Eastern Flyer up and running, as well as expansion possibilities for the Heartland Flyer.

Per https://okhouse.gov/Media/ShowStory.aspx?MediaNewsID=5273 (via this post (https://www.facebook.com/PassRailOK/posts/1347653091951189) by Passenger Rail Oklahoma on Facebook)


OKC Chamber and other Pro-Business Groups Support Upcoming Nichols-Bennett Interim Study

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Contact: Jacklyn Brink-Rosen
Phone: (405) 557-7391

In an effort to lay out solutions to completion of the proposed Eastern Flyer route and to look at new horizons for the Heartland Flyer, urban Democratic Reps. Monroe Nichols and Forrest Bennett will host interim study 17-107on passenger rail expansion on September 6, 2017, in Room 512A at the state Capitol.

Upon release to the public of information regarding the upcoming study on rail expansion, messages of support for rail and other mass transportation options came in from all sectors of business and politics to include pro-business groups traditionally associated with customary corporate concerns. Wisely, these groups are making the connection and taking a hard look at the impact upon those concerns when a state and its cities have no connectivity

“I am encouraged that the Oklahoma City Chamber has joined the thousands of Oklahomans in support of this effort,” said study coauthor Nichols, D-Tulsa. “We all recognize this as a huge economic development opportunity. Passenger rail provides yet another mode of transportation, connecting our major economic hubs to those in cities in our region and across the country.

Rail has been talked about for too long without enough action. We ought to be investing in all forms of transportation. What we have is a chance to ensure Oklahoma isn’t left behind; rail isn’t a new thing, it’s something we need to fully embrace. The groundwork has been laid; all that is left is for us to take the last few steps to –literally- get the trains rolling.

“We know based on a Tulsa Chamber study in 2014, that there are upwards of 5,000 business commuters daily between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. For Oklahomans, the savings and increased opportunity for a productive commute makes riding instead of driving a worthwhile endeavor. Those aspects are in addition to having connectivity to Kansas City, St. Louis and other major cities in this part of the country,” Nichols said.

How the Legislature’s transportation compass came to be headed in only “one direction” is a mystery, as apparently there was a time when other legislatures had a different sense of direction. Bipartisan efforts in 1996 led to passage of Senate Bill 1192, the Oklahoma Tourism and Passenger Rail Act, to provide connectivity to primary points in the national railroad passenger system. The measure reads: “The purpose of the Oklahoma Tourism and Passenger Rail Act shall be to do all things necessary to restore passenger rail service to the state, to enhance the state's position as a tourist destination site and to improve the quality of life for residents of this state by offering an alternative mode of intrastate and interstate travel.”

A second piece of legislation was passed in 1998. The ‘Buyer’s Passenger Service Rights’ agreement purchased the track between Sapulpa and Del City with access rights into both Oklahoma City and downtown Tulsa. Since this agreement, the state made the decision to sell the line to a private carrier but with the caveat that passenger rail service would be developed by August 4, 2019, by the new owner. If the new owner of the line does not bring about service, he will pay a previously agreed upon penalty of several million dollars to the state and Oklahomans have no rail expansion. Word is, despite this enabling legislation, the tie up is push back against permitting access into the downtown areas.

"It is heartening to see legislators from across the state taking further interest in passenger rail,” said interim study coauthor Bennett, D-Oklahoma City. “States that invest in transportation see economic benefit, returns that Oklahoma desperately needs. As Oklahoma continues to grow, smart investment in mass transit will prove to reduce congestion on our roadways, increase economic development along the routes and create jobs, both directly and indirectly. For that reason, it's no surprise that the State Chamber is on board with our efforts. When dyed-in-the-wool Democrats and the State Chamber come together on something, it's a good sign that it's a winning issue. I look forward to working with them, and other stakeholders, to bring passenger rail and other mass transit options to fruition."

Amtrak, through the operation of the Heartland Flyer, brings an approximate 3:1 economic benefit ratio ($15 million in passenger spending in communities each year with $1.2 million of which is collected in local sales taxes). Representatives from AMTRAK will be at the hearing to speak about a recent exhibition run of the Heartland Flyer from Oklahoma City to Newton, Kansas, performed to provide stakeholders information on the economic value of extending service beyond the current OKC-Ft. Worth that serves Ardmore, Purcell and Norman to an extended northern route adding Guthrie, Perry, Ponca City, Arkansas City, Wichita, Newton, Emporia, Topeka and Kansas City, connecting to Chicago and Los Angeles via the Southwest Chief at Newton.

“We are dedicating an entire section of this study to exploring underutilized transportation funding sources that if pursued could resolve many of the obstacles,” said Bennett, who takes the city bus regularly to his office at the state Capitol.

On Tuesday, Nichols gathered with the Passenger Rail Oklahoma group and supporters of rail expansion in Tulsa to discuss the upcoming study. There are now more than 7,000 followers of the Eastern Flyer website. The name Eastern Flyer was designated by the legislature to be used for the train that will eventually make its way between the state’s two largest cities. Two weeks ago, Bennett traveled on the Heartland Flyer to Texas to observe the potential for additional stops and light rail options Texas now has in place for commuters.

Both Nichols and Bennett agree that progress should be made concerning access into the downtown areas and that a resolution should be found to allow the Flyer beyond Sapulpa or Del City, in order to avoid affecting business interests and the traveling public.

Interim Study 17-107 will be held September 6, 2017 beginning at 9 AM in Room 512A of the state capitol. Due to Capitol Restoration activities, attendees should plan on arriving early. Parking for presenters and the public is on the south side of the State Capitol in the area designated as VISITOR PARKING – enter through the southeast entrance, visit the security checkpoint. The available elevator will be located by crossing the 1st floor rotunda to the left, passing in front of the art museum, to the elevator on the right. Take the elevator to the 5th floor. Exit the elevator, turn left and proceed down the hall to 512A.

broken link, but I'm going to try to be there

broken link, but I'm going to try to be there

Sorry about that - fixed the link.

Lawton trying to get in on the passenger rail action in Oklahoma!

http://www.kswo.com/story/36064489/lawton-will-discuss-participating-in-passenger-rail-service-study?utm_content=buffer8ba7a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Lawton trying to get in on the passenger rail action in Oklahoma!

http://www.kswo.com/story/36064489/lawton-will-discuss-participating-in-passenger-rail-service-study?utm_content=buffer8ba7a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

You realize that all of these 30 lane freeways that you dream of (and exist in your utopian vision of the world) are the exact thing that has basically killed passenger rail service in the US? So which one is it? Do you want a million freeways? Or actual, usable rail service? Because they are two separate things.

They are two separate modes of transportation and it is people that share you mentality that makes me more anti-transit than I should be.

The Oklahoma Sub that extends from OKC down to Lawton is not in as good of shape as the Sooner Sub up to Tulsa. Many parts of the line are speed-restricted down to 10mph, due to lack of higher maintenance standards, and would require some pretty significant funding to rehabilitate to at least Class III standards. To add insult to injury, at this point, it's looking doubtful that the Eastern Flyer project, as originally envisioned, will actually happen; the operator that was selected, Iowa Pacific, reportedly barely has the money to keep their operations going, and the owner of the Sooner Sub, WATCO, is reportedly focusing more heavily on maintaining and growing their freight business over passenger or excursion projects. Various reports from a few Facebook groups run by Passenger Rail Oklahoma make it sound increasingly likely that WATCO may be planning to simply forefit the penalty funds for failing to comply with the passenger rail clause of the sale contract, currently held in escrow; it's a slap-on-the-wrist penalty of only a few million dollars. That said, WATCO is also reportedly looking for a new passenger operator to partner with for this project, so... we'll just have to see. But without some significant political will and funding - both at the local and state level, as well as with some federal funding mixed in - I'm starting to be pessimistic as to whether or not we'll actually see the Tulsa train come to fruition, much less expanding it down to Lawton.

I still hold out hope, however - a Lawton-OKC-Tulsa passenger train would connect the three largest metropolitan areas in the State and, to my mind, makes a TON of sense. Sufficient frequency (at least 2x a day in each direction) would ensure success of the train, too. But a lot of work still lies ahead to make that dream come true.

Well your post is better than yet another anti-car nutjob trying to take jabs at me when I'm vocally supporting and trying to contribute information I come across here. Thank you.

i was so elated about this. I heard on the local news outlets here that Amtrak and ODOT were asking for citizen input on some survey. I think it was due on August 10th. Did you guys participate or hear about it?

After seeing how the Tulsa route might be pushed back again in a bit bummed out. Would love to see routes from OKC to Kansas City but would also feel it a priority to connect to Tulsa from OKC as well.

i was so elated about this. I heard on the local news outlets here that Amtrak and ODOT were asking for citizen input on some survey. I think it was due on August 10th. Did you guys participate or hear about it?

After seeing how the Tulsa route might be pushed back again in a bit bummed out. Would love to see routes from OKC to Kansas City but would also feel it a priority to connect to Tulsa from OKC as well.

https://ok.gov/triton/modules/newsroom/newsroom_article.php?id=277&article_id=34598

All, just a heads-up: The interim study hosted by Representatives Monroe Nichols and Forrest Bennett on passenger rail expansion and funding (#17-107) is tomorrow - Wednesday, 06 September 2017, at the state capitol. They had to move to a different room; it's now in Room 432A. If you're on Facebook, more information can be found here: https://www.facebook.com/events/870955263055629/

Went to this meeting today. Liked what i heard. Not a ton of new info. Was just good to hear that most folks at the capitol are trying to make things happen with rail transit in general, but in particular with OKC-Newton/KC and OKC-Tulsa. I was surprised to hear the ODOT ED so supportive of rail, but he made a good point about them not spending on rail to this point because the legislature has to provide them the mechanism to do so (although then someone else posted a law from like 1996 saying they already can).

Interim study on passenger rail picks up momentum

By: Catherine Sweeney The Journal Record October 3, 2017

OKLAHOMA CITY – Discussions about passenger rail in Oklahoma turned to practical matters of speed and money Tuesday when a Tulsa lawmaker brought a contractor to the state Capitol to talk numbers.

Government officials, economic developers and industry experts have been talking about high-speed rail options for months. Argument points are nearly as predictable as a train schedule: Supporters say the transportation could help the state in several ways, but opponents point out that it’s difficult to estimate costs and financing.

State Sen. Kevin Matthews, D-Tulsa, sponsored an interim study on the topic that was presented Tuesday to the Senate Transportation Committee. Matthews brought general contractor Jon McGrath to the meeting because he has worked in the rail industry for decades. McGrath discussed how he would recommend implementing a high-speed rail system between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, which residents could use to get to work, basketball games at the Chesapeake Arena and concerts at the Bank of Oklahoma Center.

Matthews said Oklahoma is lagging other states across the country, particularly those with larger cities, which have already embraced passenger rail.

“I don’t think we should continue to be the last state to implement technology,” he said.

An Oklahoma City-Tulsa route would be a key step in integrating Oklahoma into Amtrak’s nationwide framework, plugging the region into hubs in the Dallas and Kansas metros. Oklahoma City is already attached to Dallas via the Heartland Flyer; riders can take connecting trains from Dallas to other Texas metros. A Tulsa extension could take riders to Newton, Kansas, where trains run to the other major Midwestern towns such as St. Louis and Chicago. The Amtrak system has connections to both coasts.

The first step would be connecting Oklahoma’s two largest metros, said McGrath, president of railroad consulting firm McGrath LLC. Passenger rail between the two would increase the quality of life in both areas, alleviate road congestion and promote healthier lifestyles.

He also said that if the rail system met the national standard, they could travel as quickly as 220 mph. That would make Oklahoma City-Tulsa trips take less than half an hour.

The total project would likely cost between $2 billion and $3 billion, he said, but a public-private partnership could shift most of that cost to a contractor. He recommended placing the burden of securing rights of way for the route on the government and leaving the rest to private entities.

Although Oklahoma already has a rail system running from Oklahoma City to Tulsa, McGrath recommended against using it. He said the existing track has nearly 150 curves, and for a train to hit is maximum speed, it needs a straight trajectory. Instead, he said, officials should build a line along Interstate 44.

He also said it would be best to elevate the railway, essentially placing it on a bridge so that it doesn’t intersect with road traffic. Traffic warning lights and crossing gates wouldn’t be of much use for a train traveling at more than 200 mph, he said.

“The public’s not used to that, and you can’t always see it,” he said.

Oklahoma Secretary of Transportation Mike Patterson said passenger rail would have limited benefit in the short-term because fewer than 200 people would be on the train at a time, a negligible difference to highway traffic that typically carries 80,000 automobiles per day.

“Based on our studies, it doesn’t make that much impact,” he said. “What it will do is help mitigate any future expansion requirements.”

As both cities grow larger and more interconnected, demand for transportation between them will continue to grow, he said. Diverting people early could help cut down the need for new construction projects.

He said that the rail option would provide another benefit as well.

“There are some people who prefer to travel by rail, either because they don’t want to drive or they can’t drive,” he said.

http://kmuw.org/post/newton-poised-be-regional-hub-if-passenger-rail-expands-north

Amtrak is further into a study for the Heartland Flyer Ext. to Newton.

http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_release/12394169/amtrak-study-to-explore-passenger-rail-expansion-in-wichita-through-heartland-flyer-route

With new budget, Heartland Flyer extension back on track

By: Brian Brus The Journal Record March 23, 2018

OKLAHOMA CITY – Congressional commitment to put nearly $2 billion into Amtrak in the new budget is good reason to believe a Heartland Flyer extension into Kansas might soon be realized, said Evan Stair, president of the nonprofit Passenger Rail Oklahoma organization.

The omnibus spending bill signed Friday by President Donald Trump follows on the heels of an announcement by the Kansas Department of Transportation that Amtrak is definitely moving forward with a feasibility study. Momentum seems to be building to a critical level after many years of effort, Stair said.

“I think this is looking really good now,” Stair said. “I think there’s an understanding, in conversations I’ve had with Amtrak and ODOT (Oklahoma’s transportation department) that they know they really need to extend this line into Kansas.”

Amtrak’s rail network primarily radiates out of Chicago, passing through Newton, Kansas, on the north side of Oklahoma and into Dallas-Fort Worth to the south. Amtrak’s Heartland Flyer connects Oklahoma City to Fort Worth, but the line falls far short of connecting to Newton and Wichita. Stair said that extension would fill a corridor gap that would allow Oklahomans to connect more directly to Chicago, saving at least 24 hours round-trip to current alternative routes.

According to the Rail Passenger Association’s analysis of Amtrak data, the Heartland Flyer carried 71,340 coach-class passengers in 2017 for an average trip of 175 miles. The most common connection was between Fort Worth and Oklahoma City.

Stair and other proponents of an extension such as Wichita City Council member Pete Meitzner said the economic potential and comparative investment is too obvious to be ignored. A 2010 study on intercity passenger transit systems at the Texas Transportation Institute cited the Heartland Flyer’s success: Passengers spent about $18 million annually on lodging, meals, shopping and entertainment on their trips, the study found. Passenger spending in communities along the route ranged from around $50 per passenger in Pauls Valley to $170 per passenger in Fort Worth. Passenger spending in Oklahoma City and Norman was computed to be around $120 per passenger, while Gainesville was slightly over $100 and Ardmore slightly under $90 per passenger.

“Connecting these two states and all the traffic it would generate, up into Newton and more long-distance routes, without any lakes or mountains or bridgework – it’s the lowest hanging fruit in Amtrak’s perspective for development,” Meitzner said. “Compared with other projects … this one is not going to take a lot of work or a lot of money.”

In more good news for the potential Heartland Flyer extension: Wichita is also looking at applying for a Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements grant that could fund a large portion of the work needed to extend the Heartland Flyer north through Wichita. https://www.kfdi.com/news/city-looks-at-grant-for-amtrak-service

Very promising news. I hope this comes to fruition.

The Heartland Flyer is in good shape to receive a much needed expansion and upgrades to it's existing service. I hope new trains are considered as the current ones are quite old but I won't be complaining if we at least get an expansion to Newton.

I know Phialpha mentioned upthread Wichita is getting a big upgrade so now all that is needed for them is track upgrades. Edmond will need a completely new station built from scratch and I know Edmond is wanting a multimodal transit hub downtown with a pedestrian bridge over the tracks anyways so maybe that could fast tracked if this happens sooner rather than later. Guthrie's will need a bit of TLC. I don't know much about the other towns that have proposed stops(Perry, Ponca City, and Ark City) would be willing to invest in their stations.

Has anyone heard anything about the proposed stop at Winstar? It would need a completely new station if I remember right. They need more track improvements in several areas to try and shave off at least 30-40 minutes. The ride surprisingly doesn't take much longer than the drive, being about an hour longer. So even shaving 20 minutes off would be nice.

Question for people more knowledgeable than me: If this connection is built, how realistic is it really to take a train from OKC to Chicago? I guess, more specifically, for pleasure. I was in Topeka this past weekend and talking to some friends from high school, and one mentioned he'll take the train to Chicago. From there it's a 10 hour trip, $50 both ways. What kind of time are we talking about adding onto that? Another 5 hours? Another $35 each way? The train in Topeka leaves at 5 am. Would the whole timetable be rearranged or would you be stuck hanging out from 10 to midnight in Newton KS waiting for your connection?

Hope I'm not sounding negative. I love the idea, just wondering how the details would all be worked out, and if people more in the know thought that the demand would actually exist to make it work.

My mother takes the southwest chief all the time. Both east/west trains comes through newton, ks in the 2-3am hour. Eastbound departs Newton at 2:59am. A coach seat from Newton, KS to Chicago is $68 and ride is 12 hours 16min. The northbound train ends in okc around ~9:30pm. So if it continued northbound it would get into Newton in the 1am-2am range. As for pricing I would probably make it an even $100 from OKC to Chicago in coach and would probably take around 18 hours total.

My understanding from the one or two meetings on the matter I've attended is that a northbound trip from OKC even just to KC would be an "overnight" trip.

I'm guessing that the train would leave and arrive here in coordination with the current route to Texas. So it would head north around 9:45 PM and get here around 8:15 AM.

Thanks for the info. 18 hours seems like a barrier, for us at least. Not that much more expensive to grab a southwest flight and use public transportation once you get there. Of course you have to weigh the extra cost vs the time savings. Just seems like spending 36 hours round trip to get to Chicago is a lot of hours.

I suppose if you're comparing taking the train to driving, then that's an easier decision. 12 hours is more comparable than 18. Plus you're spending gas money and you don't get to relax, have a drink, whatever if you're operating a motor vehicle.

Those are the routes where lack of high-speed rail really stands out.

Personally, I won’t ride on any trains until Positive Train Control is finally implemented across the route.

Question for people more knowledgeable than me: If this connection is built, how realistic is it really to take a train from OKC to Chicago? I guess, more specifically, for pleasure. I was in Topeka this past weekend and talking to some friends from high school, and one mentioned he'll take the train to Chicago. From there it's a 10 hour trip, $50 both ways. What kind of time are we talking about adding onto that? Another 5 hours? Another $35 each way? The train in Topeka leaves at 5 am. Would the whole timetable be rearranged or would you be stuck hanging out from 10 to midnight in Newton KS waiting for your connection?

Hope I'm not sounding negative. I love the idea, just wondering how the details would all be worked out, and if people more in the know thought that the demand would actually exist to make it work.

It's quite realistic, as long as you do not mind sleeping on the train; it would be an overnighter. Sleeping in coach isn't bad, but accommodations in a sleeper car, such as a roomette, are a lot more comfortable since you can lay totally flat. Either way though, sleeping on the train is not difficult at all. The trip actually can be made today, via a charter bus between Oklahoma City (OKC) and Newton, KS (NEW), fully booked through Amtrak. The bus leaves OKC at 10:40pm and arrives in NEW at 2:15am, at which point you'd wait in the station building for the #4 Southwest Chief to arrive. The scheduled departure from NEW is 2:59am, and then you'd arrive at Chicago Union Station (CHI) at 3:15pm the next day. The total trip time today is 16 hours, 35 minutes; I expect that when the Heartland Flyer is extended to NEW and replaces the bus, the overall trip time and scheduled stops will still be similar. Most of that time will be overnight though, so it won't feel as long, and even with the transfer in NEW it's still less hassle than flying and the seats are WAY roomier and more comfortable.

The lowest fare I see for this trip, looking several months in advance, is $137 one-way in Coach, so not bad. TOP - CHI is $81 for the same "Value" fare class. (TOP - CHI's absolute lowest fare class - "Saver" - appears to be $65, for reference, but that's for a non-refundable ticket that isn't offered on the Heartland Flyer route and is only available if booked online more than 14 days in advance)

Or for random dates in June I could leave my house at 7am catch an 8:05am flight to Chicago and land at 10am coming back direct for 212 round trip. Spend less than 30 on parking (or 2 10 buck Uber’s).

And save money. I don’t under stand how flying is a “hassle”. On direct routes.

So less money sleeping in my own bed and total travel time is less than 6 hours door to door.

Or. 36 hours door to door and more money and sleeping 2 nights in a coach seat on a train.

That doesn’t compute

Yep, when compared to flying, it doesn't really make sense, at least for us. If there was a high speed option that might make more sense. If you positively couldn't fly for whatever reason, then I would look more closely at the train.

As an aside, I tried to look up getting from OKC to KC via train once, and it was a hilarious 36 hour journey, going south to Fort Worth, over to Houston, to New Orleans, up through St Louis to Chicago and then down to KC. Might not have all those details correct but it was something hilarious like that.

I would love to take the train to Chicago for the experience of seeing the country in a new way but I wouldn't use it as a means of efficient travel.

Or for random dates in June I could leave my house at 7am catch an 8:05am flight to Chicago and land at 10am coming back direct for 212 round trip. Spend less than 30 on parking (or 2 10 buck Uber’s).

And save money. I don’t under stand how flying is a “hassle”. On direct routes.

So less money sleeping in my own bed and total travel time is less than 6 hours door to door.

Or. 36 hours door to door and more money and sleeping 2 nights in a coach seat on a train.

That doesn’t compute

The reason it does compute for me is because I'm a bigger guy that does not easily fit in airline seats, and even when I did when I was younger, I never enjoyed dealing with security, the baggage carousel, or constant noise, or the way cabin air pressure makes me feel. On the train, the seats are bigger, bathrooms are bigger, you don't have to deal with the security craziness, the train is much quieter, there is much more opportunity to get up and move around, and even get off the train mid journey at stops where there's an extended stop. You can take much, much more baggage with you for no additional charge as well - my large 27" suitcase qualifies as a carry on, and I am allowed 2 of them on Amtrak, in addition to two personal bags like backpacks, etc. The scenery is much better too, in my opinion. Now, all of that said, that's why it makes sense to me, but I fully recognize that others may not share those issues so it's not gonna make sense for everyone. It just depends on what you want to do.

Also keep in mind that we're specifically talking about traveling to Chicago here; when my husband and I went to Tucson for Thanksgiving last year, two round-trip tickets with first-class sleeper accommodations ended up being cheaper than flying out there in coach when I booked. That's certainly not always the case, but there are definitely many times where Amtrak is cheaper than flying. Again, YMMV.

Thanks for explaining. That makes sense.

I will personally be very interested in taking a train to Kansas City. Lots of friends/family, plus Union Station is in the middle of some great stuff, and now that they have the street car going all the way north to downtown, it would be pretty easy to get around. Plus travel time/cost would be more comparable to driving.

Only hindrance there is again the travel times. I could get used to sleeping on a train if necessary, but I don't want to hang out for 45 minutes at 2 am waiting for a train

14709

I will personally be very interested in taking a train to Kansas City. Lots of friends/family, plus Union Station is in the middle of some great stuff, and now that they have the street car going all the way north to downtown, it would be pretty easy to get around. Plus travel time/cost would be more comparable to driving.

Only hindrance there is again the travel times. I could get used to sleeping on a train if necessary, but I don't want to hang out for 45 minutes at 2 am waiting for a train

Kansas City would be a great destination for a train ride. The streetcar stops at Union Station so you can easily get downtown and with the planned extension also get to Westport and the Plaza in a few years.

I hope they are serious about this and don’t force it into failing. Round trip service at 2am and 4am LOL.

I hope they are serious about this and don’t force it into failing. Round trip service at 2am and 4am LOL.

I hope so too. That said, Forrest Bennett, on Facebook (IIRC), mentioned that this RFP includes a 10 year contract obligation. That, combined with financial expenditure requirements from the sale agreement, tells me that WATCO is unlikely to be playing games here. They're required to spend a minimum of $2.1 million on improvements to the line specifically to support passenger service, and if they fail to meet their obligations to actually begin passenger operations, they stand to lose just over $3 million in penalties ($2.8 MM for failure to begin regular service, and up to $210,000 for failure to invest in passenger-specific improvements). They are also subject to a "claw-back" provision where ODOT can take back passenger service rights over the line if WATCO fails to fulfill their passenger obligations.

That service would be excellent. KC may be in my future and I would love a rail option back to OKC.

The problem will all of these attempts at rail service has been Tulsa itself. Politically, those who have the influence to make it happen arenÂ’t interested in rail service to OKC. The new mayor GT Bynum has professed his belief that autonomous cars will solve the public transit problem although there is no details to any of these proclamations .

The line itself needs additional upgrades to make it semi-competitive with the turnpike in terms of speed. The route is definitely not a straight shot.

At best this line is for nostalgia, for those who need to get between cities and donÂ’t care about timeliness, or for those who do not have a choice. The bus connections at each end are ludicrous.

if Tulsa did put the goodwill effort forth, I think there would be a greater push to bring the train directly into Santa Fe Station.

Thats why things like this should be done above the city level. If Tulsa doesn't want to play, then Wichita will and the line can parallel I35

The problem will all of these attempts at rail service has been Tulsa itself. Politically, those who have the influence to make it happen arenÂ’t interested in rail service to OKC. The new mayor GT Bynum has professed his belief that autonomous cars will solve the public transit problem although there is no details to any of these proclamations .

The line itself needs additional upgrades to make it semi-competitive with the turnpike in terms of speed. The route is definitely not a straight shot.

At best this line is for nostalgia, for those who need to get between cities and donÂ’t care about timeliness, or for those who do not have a choice. The bus connections at each end are ludicrous.

if Tulsa did put the goodwill effort forth, I think there would be a greater push to bring the train directly into Santa Fe Station.

While still not exactly a major proponent GT Bynum is receptive per the TW article:

Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum, who had not yet taken office during the initial discussion to establish a train station in downtown, indicated in a statement that he is receptive to the idea.

“In the 21st Century, both cities — and our state — will benefit from improved connectivity between Tulsa and Oklahoma City,” Bynum said. “I continue to support the concept of passenger rail service as one strategy in improving that connectivity, and am eager to see what proposals Watco receives in response to this request.”

What is David Holt’s stance on OKC-Tulsa rail? It’s just as important to get the train to Santa Fe Depot as it is to downtown Tulsa. I really hope they can find a way to utilize Union Depot in Tulsa though.

Neither mayor can _make_ the railroads grant access to their rail to get to the stations, no matter how much they want it.

While still not exactly a major proponent GT Bynum is receptive per the TW article:


What is David Holt’s stance on OKC-Tulsa rail? It’s just as important to get the train to Santa Fe Depot as it is to downtown Tulsa. I really hope they can find a way to utilize Union Depot in Tulsa though.

Tulsa also passed funds as part of Vision Tulsa for a multi-modal rail hub downtown.

What else is Tulsa supposed to do? I mean it's only been 20 years and five mayors since the state has been promising to extend rail service to Tulsa.

Neither mayor can _make_ the railroads grant access to their rail to get to the stations, no matter how much they want it.

Perhaps not the mayors, but the state can - at minimum for the Tulsa area. When BNSF sold the Sooner Sub to ODOT back in the late 90's, BNSF granted a 99-year passenger rights easement on the Creek Sub to get any potential passenger trains from the end of the Sooner Sub in Sapulpa through Cherokee Yard into downtown Tulsa. This easement allows for up to two passenger trains daily in each direction. Additional capacity is likely possible but would have to be negotiated with BNSF.

In OKC, Union Pacific owns the track from the AOK/SLWC junction near NE 4th and Sunnylane west through Harter Yard, through the rail corridor separating Bricktown from Deep Deuce, to the BNSF viaduct. In the past, UP was receptive to the idea of making access to Santa Fe Station possible for eastern trains, or at least working on a feasibility study for such with the City of OKC. I know the city authorized up to $50,000 for this study to be paid to UP back in 2015, but after Iowa Pacific began to self-destruct and put the Eastern Flyer on hold, I believe the City put a hold on that study as well. I certainly haven't heard of any findings from that.

The problem will all of these attempts at rail service has been Tulsa itself. Politically, those who have the influence to make it happen arenÂ’t interested in rail service to OKC. The new mayor GT Bynum has professed his belief that autonomous cars will solve the public transit problem although there is no details to any of these proclamations .

The line itself needs additional upgrades to make it semi-competitive with the turnpike in terms of speed. The route is definitely not a straight shot.

At best this line is for nostalgia, for those who need to get between cities and donÂ’t care about timeliness, or for those who do not have a choice. The bus connections at each end are ludicrous.

if Tulsa did put the goodwill effort forth, I think there would be a greater push to bring the train directly into Santa Fe Station.

correct me if I’m wrong, but where has OKC leadership said they’d get it past Del city? I don't see any goodwill being putforth by OKC. When one city ponies up $$ to connect it to downtown I’m sure the other would, but nothing will get done if its a "wait until the other guy goes first" atmosphere.. I am not worried about Tulsa. Mayor Bynum is about as for public transit as it gets, and I doubt his belief in autonomous vehicles will eliminate any willingness to invest in other modes of transportation. He is all for the new Bus Rapid Transit system going in, expanded bus service, etc.

I am not worried about Tulsa. Mayor Bynum is about as for public transit as it gets, and I doubt his belief in autonomous vehicles will eliminate any willingness to invest in other modes of transportation. He is all for the new Bus Rapid Transit system going in, expanded bus service, etc.

Transcript from KRMG late last year after he was elected. I believe there are more comments about this that have been made by him on Twitter and in other mediums. Let's say his support is lukewarm at best. I think that would be fair. It is certainly not focused support that will actually get it politically done. I have not heard of any substantial plans to spend money on any significant transit initiatives beyond the "BRT" plans.

33:25 in the audio stream...

Dan Potter: Let's move off that just for a second and talk about something I kind of expected to hear a little bit about in your speech yesterday and I didn't. Let's talk about rail transportation between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. Its a vision, its a dream that many people have had for decades now. Is there annnyyy movement... is it gonna happen?

Mayor Bynum: You know, there has been discussion around that for years and different options have been floated, and I am certainly supportive of the state doing that if they want to... the concern that I have as the Mayor of Tulsa, one, and I... there are two issues here.

One, connectivity between Oklahoma City and Tulsa. I think that is of crucial importance in the 21st Century. I think that is the, if you will... the term that is utilized in urban strategy is megaregion. That's our megaregion; Tulsa Oklahoma City mega region. And anything we can do to be tying those two together is incredibly important.

The question is, 'how do you do that?' And the reality is there is tremendous disruption occurring right now in the world of transit.

I was just at an international meeting of mayors last week. And the reality is, everyone around the world now is talking about autonomous vehicles. This is not some si-fi study where it might happen, you know, decades in the future. Companies are planning right now for that to be something that happens in over the next couple of decades.

And so what we don't want to do is be the last two cities in America that make the massive infrastructure investment in something that is an outmoded source of transportation, when the new wave is coming right in. And so, that is where my hesitancy and concern around it... it isn't about connectivity between the two, its about what the best means of that is.

The other issue is... is even... let's just say nothing changes in transportation over the next two decades, is rail the best vehicle? Well, were' getting ready to install bus rapid transit lines in Tulsa right now. And the reality is rail has a lot of romance around it, people love the idea of rail, but bus rapid transit is a much more efficient means of transporting people back and forth than rail is... that's something that you see cities in other parts of the world have embraced and we are doing here in Tulsa.

So, I love the folks that are ambitious about this and are pushing it... I love that the discussion is occurring... but I do have concerns about whether or not we would want to make that kind of capital investment and operating investment at a time when there is so much transition occurring in the transportation area.

Dan Potter: Gotta go to a break here but real quick, but there has been a meme that has been making its way around social media pointing up a 1996 state law that Oklahoma [City] and Tulsa must have passenger rail service between the two cities but there's no deadline on that law, are you aware of the law?

Mayor Bynum: I have heard that referenced, but that's not been part of any of the discussions that we have been having at the city...

Dan Potter: It seems like a very bizarre, very strange law to have with no deadline on it.

Mayor Bynum: And again that connectivity is very important, there's no question there.

correct me if I’m wrong, but where has OKC leadership said they’d get it past Del city? I don't see any goodwill being putforth by OKC. When one city ponies up $$ to connect it to downtown I’m sure the other would, but nothing will get done if its a "wait until the other guy goes first" atmosphere.

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

Not only that, but the whole entire reason why Iowa Pacific didn't quickly start operations in the first place is because both the City of OKC and the City of Tulsa reached out to them and wanted them to wait until they could get trains from downtown to downtown. That's what Iowa Pacific said anyway.

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

Come on man, don’t pretend that the renovations to Santa Fe station were for a Tulsa connection. It’s a historic, active station that needed to be upgraded. The other investments made by OKC that you mentioned, while great, fall into he same category. The Tulsa connection was never a primary reason for anything. Nothing either city has done was for this connection.

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

I just can’t let the bs in your paragraph go. I love all okc has done for passenger transit, but it’s not the leader in investments like you pretend. It doesn’t even touch what Dallas has invested in DART.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dart-has-spent-5-billion-on-light-rail-is-it-worth-it-8380338

Come on man, The Tulsa connection was never a primary reason for anything. Nothing either city has done was for this connection.

That's simply not true. The URS study and alignment preservation was entirely based on what the requirements were to connect Santa Fe Station to Tulsa. In fact, the local connections were less relevant at the time.

I was actually there in many, many, various meetings both public and private. And not only that, I regularly traveled to Tulsa and participated in some of their meetings as well to determine what they were doing on behalf of our former Mayor Cornett.

Don't make incorrect assertions about any of this stuff to me or to the people on this forum.

I just can’t let the bs in your paragraph go. I love all okc has done for passenger transit, but it’s not the leader in investments like you pretend. It doesn’t even touch what Dallas has invested in DART.

I have never, and shall probably never, compare our efforts to what Dallas has successfully done with DART. As far as the "BS" as you put it, I can tell you authoritatively that OKC would have moved even more aggressively if we had a willing partner in Tulsa. We never had. If you're a Tulsan and have a chip on your shoulder about this, you can blame your former Mayor Bartlett among others about this.

We're investing $160 million+ in transit infrastructure right now. If that isn't a meaningful start for our city I don't know what is. And we're not looking to Dallas for all our answers or comparisons. We're looking globally.

well said.

Come on man, don’t pretend that the renovations to Santa Fe station were for a Tulsa connection. It’s a historic, active station that needed to be upgraded. The other investments made by OKC that you mentioned, while great, fall into the same category. The Tulsa connection was never a primary reason for anything. Nothing either city has done was for this connection.

Since you have chosen to pick a fight with Urban Pioneer and he has identified his direct source of information and his involvement/history with the subject, pl.ease identify the source of your knowledge and why we should believe it? Are you presenting knowledge or opinion?

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

So the rights to come into downtown Tulsa already exist, the state owns those rights for 99 years. And from the last years Vision project Tulsa has money for a new station. And while that new station has not yet been built, Tulsa's Union Station still exists, is fully remodeled and is owned by the city. All you would have to do to use Union is to build a platform at ground level to the tracks, and that could be done in a matter of weeks.

So serious question, how is Tulsa the hold up here? You can Blame Bynum all you want for some random comments on a radio show last year but he's also made other statements that have been supportive of rail. How can this be on Bynum when he's only been mayor for two years while Tulsa has been promised rail service since the late 90s when Bynum must have been a teenager. The reality remains that the state spends millions a year to support rail to OKC, and nothing to Tulsa.

If you’ll note in the above post, I actually blame “your former Mayor Bartlett among others”. My references to Bynum are totally within the context that he is luke warm. OKC aggressively lobbied at high, organized levels for the Heartland Flyer. And as the state has threatened its existence over the years, OKC always fights for it. Tulsa has not made the same sorts of organized, meaningful political efforts. I think that is visibly clear and easily backed up through a cursory examination of the info out there.

In my case I actually sat in many of these meetings and really don’t know why that is being questioned. I have no motive here and want Tulsa to be as successful as OKC. I don’t have time to be anything other than candid about this.

Urban, don't get bent out of shape. Tulsans are always shocked when OKC works hard and smart and gets something they don't have. LOL. They can't fathom that OKC can outperform them.

So the rights to come into downtown Tulsa already exist, the state owns those rights for 99 years.

My apologies for being pedantic, but the 99-year passenger rights agreement began when BNSF sold the Sooner Sub to ODOT originally back in 1998. At this point, there are approximately 79 years left in this agreement.


And from the last years Vision project Tulsa has money for a new station. And while that new station has not yet been built, Tulsa's Union Station still exists, is fully remodeled and is owned by the city. All you would have to do to use Union is to build a platform at ground level to the tracks, and that could be done in a matter of weeks.

This is, unfortunately, incorrect. First: the $3 million earmarked from the most recent Vision Tulsa initiative (https://www.cityoftulsa.org/government/capital-programs/vision-tulsa/vision-projects/) for a train depot is intended to build a recreation of a passenger depot at the site of the Route 66 Village outdoor museum along Southwest Blvd, where one of the original steam locomotives from the Frisco Meteor passenger train is on display - and it is on the opposite side of 244 from the BNSF rail corridor that an OKC-TUL train would use. Second, according to the Tulsa County Assessor's Office (http://www.assessor.tulsacounty.org/assessor-property.php?account=R99201920111575&return=close), the depot is currently owned by the Tulsa County Industrial Authority, who bought it in 2004 using Vision 2025 funds (http://vision2025.info/oklahoma-jazz-hall-of-fame/). TCIA then leased it to the Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame for $1 a year for a 99-year term (http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepage2/local-performer-calls-for-change-of-leadership-at-jazz-hall/article_34950855-be13-5b29-9045-c6d18feb01be.html), beginning in 2007. According to an article from Fox 23 (https://www.fox23.com/news/fox23-investigates/fox23-investigates-the-jazz-hall-of-fame-hits-a-sour-note-for-donors/699893525) covering financial troubles with the hall of fame organization, the only way Tulsa County can get out of the lease is if the Jazz Hall of Fame is more than 30 days late on a payment. If the City of Tulsa does somehow manage to regain control of the depot from the County and boot the Jazz Hall of Fame, the original three platforms and the overhead concourse that allowed access to them from the Great Hall of the depot are gone; they were demolished sometime after 1981 when the depot was purchased by the Williams Companies and restored for use for office space. The area where the original platform #1 was is now filled with building mechanical equipment, so when reconstructed, they would be forced to rebuild Platform #2 and the overhead concourse, use a different platform configuration, or move all of the building mechanical to rebuild Platform #1. All of this is to say that restoring Union Depot to a rail use would be more involved than most realize (but it absolutely should be done, if at all possible). You can find current and historical pictures of the depot and it's former platform configuration via the Tulsa Deco District's Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.446893312183777.1073741910.244746749065102&type=3),Lost Tulsa's album on Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/losttulsa/sets/72157612217385006/), and Mike Condren's Railroad Pages (https://condrenrails.com/Tulsa-Railroad-Pages/Stations/Union-Depot.html). However, if the County or City are unable to boot the Jazz Hall of Fame, they will be forced to secure land for, and build, a new depot somewhere along the BNSF alignment between Tulsa Union Depot and Sapulpa (where the passenger rights agreement is in effect).


So serious question, how is Tulsa the hold up here? You can Blame Bynum all you want for some random comments on a radio show last year but he's also made other statements that have been supportive of rail. How can this be on Bynum when he's only been mayor for two years while Tulsa has been promised rail service since the late 90s when Bynum must have been a teenager. The reality remains that the state spends millions a year to support rail to OKC, and nothing to Tulsa.

While Mayor Bynum has voiced support for regaining passenger rail service between Tulsa and OKC, he has devoted few resources to the effort and simply maintained the status quo, just like his predecessor and unlike OKC. There appears to be no City-sponsored effort to gain control of Union Depot, or to secure a location for a new depot. Granted, I'm sure this is partly due to Iowa Pacific's collapse and a lack of confidence that they would be able to implement the passenger service they originally proposed, but the fact remains that the City of Tulsa has done far less than the City of OKC to advance passenger rail in their respective cities. I sincerely hope this changes soon, though I imagine it will strongly depend on responses to WATCO's RFP to find a passenger operator willing to run the route.

Baralheia, I hope you write for Wikipedia!

Regarding Bynum and Tulsa, I just don't understand it. I have been working up there for a client pretty regularly and love the place just as much as in the past. Efficient rail connections to it would definitely help make it less of an urban island.

I just can’t let the bs in your paragraph go. I love all okc has done for passenger transit, but it’s not the leader in investments like you pretend. It doesn’t even touch what Dallas has invested in DART.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dart-has-spent-5-billion-on-light-rail-is-it-worth-it-8380338

You do realize that urban pioneer is a major transit advocate in OKC who is on committees for the streetcar and is very involved in efforts to bring more rail transit to OK, right? As far as any type of mass transit goes, he’s probably the most informed poster on OKCTalk.

If you’ll note in the above post, I actually blame “your former Mayor Bartlett among others”. My references to Bynum are totally within the context that he is luke warm. OKC aggressively lobbied at high, organized levels for the Heartland Flyer. And as the state has threatened its existence over the years, OKC always fights for it. Tulsa has not made the same sorts of organized, meaningful political efforts. I think that is visibly clear and easily backed up through a cursory examination of the info out there.

In my case I actually sat in many of these meetings and really don’t know why that is being questioned. I have no motive here and want Tulsa to be as successful as OKC. I don’t have time to be anything other than candid about this.

Based on what my friends in Tulsa who are very involved with the government outreach programs in TYPros, Bynum and the city have done and are doing very little to advance plans for a rail connection to OKC. So yes, Bynum and Tulsa’s general lack of effort has been a major issue holding this up. All of the rail transit advocate groups put a lot of blame on both Bynum and Bartlett as well.