But the article made no mention of a shut down of the well in Love County and earthquakes stopped. That in itself should have been reported as a major event, but wasn't.

Wait a minute, you're criticizing an article in a national magazine because of something it didn't include? Any article has to be edited for length, and what was included was written and presented very well. I think the historical aspect of this was fascinating. There could have been hundreds of little things that he could have put in, but I'm just glad what was there - was there! It took some work to actually get this and get it to where I could put it here. Hope you liked the rest of it.

So I would imagine the same people who demand we should think of global warming is nothing but an outright fraud are going to demand we think that claims that oil field activity causes earthquakes are also fraud.

I'm confused. I was referring to people who are constantly trying to brush scientific research under the rug and refuse to think that its normal that we went from 1-3 small earthquakes prior to 2007, and now are having thousands per year and its somehow not linked to waste water injection.

For those who may not have read the article in post #54 because of the long holiday weekend. Here is the article again (http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/37719-oil-gas-activity-likely-factor-oklahoma-earthquakes-3.html#post790381).

For those who may not have read the article in post #54 because of the long holiday weekend. Here is the article again (http://www.okctalk.com/current-events-open-topic/37719-oil-gas-activity-likely-factor-oklahoma-earthquakes-3.html#post790381).

Well my money is on the the drought along with waste water being pumped into the ground. Expansion and contraction. When we are in drought conditions over a long period and you pump millions of gallons of water into the ground something is gonna give.

Not really sure if this is the appropriate place to put this, but it seemed to be close, not sure if it warrants an entire new thread.

How can any of this be OK? Horrible....

Republicans in Congress Are Trying to Gut Local Fracking Regulations | Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/05/house-republicans-fracking-toxic-chemical-regulations-epa)

North Carolina GOP Pushes Unprecedented Bill to Jail Anyone Who Discloses Fracking Chemicals | Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2014/05/north-carolina-felony-fracking-chemicals-disclosure) (just read they changed the penalty to a misdemeanor instead of a felony, and it apparently did pass their Senate, at least)

And I'm actually shocked that OK requires fracking chemical disclosure, figured they'd fight that...

Well in most cases it is pointless to be against disclosing the chemicals you pump during frac. Out of the huge number of chemicals you see people say are pumped in every well, there are only 3 or 4 common ones that are generally used. This has been pointed out over and over again in several threads by several posters. You're welcome to check the chemical disclosure database for yourself if you don't believe me/others. The only reason/scenario anyone would have to try and hide the chemicals they use at this point would be if they were experimenting in a new area and didn't want competitors to know the exact mixture they were testing.

FracFocus (fracfocus.org)

The one thing I liked about the article was that it mentioned a Stanford professor who is NOT opposed to fracking but realizes the dangers involved with fracking in certain places, due to the infrastructure risk related to the injection quakes. This truly is becoming a science vs industry argument, and the energy companies lose all credibility by fighting the science. It's understandable - they don't want to be held responsible for the damaged roads, bridges, or god forbid, something much worse. It adds up quickly and obviously they want the costs shifted anywhere but from their profits. It's a matter, at some point here, of intellectual honesty.

Maintaining their profits and shirking liability/responsibility will trump intellectual honesty in all likelihood.

A friend sent this to me today and I had to create multiple pictures for the article.....read this and see if there's any question in your mind.
This, truly, is a bombshell article in the latest issue of CounterPunch. Sorry for the small print.

http://i.imgur.com/jIotQDX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RvmkFqO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DugsA0G.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Yq0wA67.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eQvMKzx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/t0etRFD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Dt5kNMg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sfDTgg0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YsaCJIM.jpg

Yes, there is plenty question in my mind especially given the magazine that produced this as well as my decent knowledge of geology and that of the geologists that I've frequently discussed this issue with. I'll try to break down this article and my issues with it when I get a chance tomorrow.


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That appears to be an article from a website with an agenda based on what I see about most articles there. I'll take that with a grain of salt.

That appears to be an article from a website with an agenda based on what I see about most articles there. I'll take that with a grain of salt.

It's an investigative magazine. The website is only part of it, they've been around since the early '90s. One of the few "muckrakers" of the left and the right. They are equal opportunity muckrakers. Agenda or not on some things, Joshua Frank pretty much pulled together the historical information. I thought it was very well-done.

It's an investigative magazine. The website is only part of it, they've been around since the early '90s. One of the few "muckrakers" of the left and the right. They are equal opportunity muckrakers. Agenda or not on some things, Joshua Frank pretty much pulled together the historical information. I thought it was very well-done.

If you want to believe what they are advocating, it's well done. I'm still very much on the side of wanting conclusive evidence and I've never seen anything more than speculation.

If you want to believe what they are advocating, it's well done. I'm still very much on the side of wanting conclusive evidence and I've never seen anything more than speculation.

With all due respect, because I know you are a smart man, If you've "never seen anything more than speculation," what do you call this historical information that most all scientists consider causation? How is that merely speculation?

This part addresses "conclusive evidence,"...

http://i.imgur.com/7djRrM4.jpg

And this...

http://i.imgur.com/EhwraAP.jpg

I appreciate that the article made a clear point to distinguish the difference between the fracturing process itself and the produced water (or "wastewater", as a lot of folks call it when associated with fracing) disposal process. I see far too many articles that don't make that simple distinction. Produced water is a disposal issue whether the well was hydraulically frac'd or not. The fracturing process just increases the amount of produced water that you're going to have to handle. Now days a lot of that produced water is re-used in future frac jobs, but disposal is and will always be an issue.

I'm not claiming these to be true, but I want to throw out a couple thoughts and see what others think.

1) I would think that by "lubricating" existing faults (which is how most geologic folks describe it) and releasing the small amounts of built up energy in the formations, that we would never see any massive earthquakes. I think we would see a lot of smaller tremors, such as has been seen, but I believe it would require an actual tectonic event to generate enough energy for a large earthquake.

2) If 1) is indeed the case, then in most cases it isn't in the best interest of a lot of towns to turn away produced water disposal wells if it means there will be more drilling and in turn more tax revenue flowing into their town. The increased amount of money flowing through their town would most likely more than make up for any damages due to small tremors/earthquakes.

3) If 1) and 2) are both the case, then local governments are obviously going to claim that there isn't sufficient evidence to link produced water disposal wells and seismic activity. Acknowledging this in public would cause an absolute feeding frenzy among all the environmental/anti-fossil fuel groups as something for them to use as a new rallying cry to strike fear in the general public.

The link between produced water disposal wells and seismic activity is indeed something that needs to be monitored so the effects can be minimized/eliminated, but as long as no extreme seismic events take place and cause massive large-scale damage then it is just a necessary evil that comes along with the benefits of increased oil/gas production at this point in time. Alternative ways of disposing/re-using the produced water will continue to elevate themselves and catch on throughout the industry, it is just going to take time. Disposing of produced water is too expensive for that to not eventually happen.

I'm confused. I was referring to people who are constantly trying to brush scientific research under the rug and refuse to think that its normal that we went from 1-3 small earthquakes prior to 2007, and now are having thousands per year and its somehow not linked to waste water injection.

Hydraulic fracturing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing

First fracked well took place in 1949, in Stephens County, OK. The largest earthquake previous to the 2011 quake was around El Reno in 1952, three years and several miles away from that very first successful injection well AND I bet you'd love to link those two items together wouldn't you? This has been in practice for 55 years. With that regard, is it your belief that the upper mantle and crust are settling due to gravitational exoplanet factors which will result in another 48 years of earthquakes MAN IS AT FAULT BS?

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Hydraulic fracturing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing

First fracked well took place in 1949, in Stephens County, OK. The largest earthquake previous to the 2011 quake was around El Reno in 1952, three years and several miles away from that very first successful injection well AND I bet you'd love to link those two items together wouldn't you? This has been in practice for 55 years. With that regard, is it your belief that the upper mantle and crust are settling due to gravitational exoplanet factors which will result in another 48 years of earthquakes MAN IS AT FAULT BS?

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Perhaps a better approach to this is to look at it as an unfortunate chain of events. Perhaps the cause for the recent massive spike in quakes can't be associated with just one cause. For all we know it could be a chain relating to significant drought for years, changes in water usage, removal of fossil fuels under the surface, and increased lubrication from injection wells...not in any particular order. It could also just be some major quake somewhere else rippled through the plates and just did enough to make the Wilzetta and Nemaha faults active again. Or it could be Godzilla or a new hotspot...but those two would be too "exciting" for Oklahoma. :)

Just a matter of time before they can no longer shirk responsibility. Funny how we can stop e cigs because the dangerous haven't been studied but waste water injection, sudden 1000 fold increase in earthquakes since they started through today...that's off the table.

Guess they should send the waste water out to western Oklahoma, where there is exstensive drilling, fracking and SWD wells galore. Just no quakes due to the lack of faults in the region...?

Perhaps a better approach to this is to look at it as an unfortunate chain of events. Perhaps the cause for the recent massive spike in quakes can't be associated with just one cause. For all we know it could be a chain relating to significant drought for years, changes in water usage, removal of fossil fuels under the surface, and increased lubrication from injection wells...not in any particular order. It could also just be some major quake somewhere else rippled through the plates and just did enough to make the Wilzetta and Nemaha faults active again. Or it could be Godzilla or a new hotspot...but those two would be too "exciting" for Oklahoma. :)

I'm 100% happy to go figure that something else is the cause of these earthquakes instead of the current scapegoat because no one can truly tie them to anything.

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Guess they should send the waste water out to western Oklahoma, where there is exstensive drilling, fracking and SWD wells galore. Just no quakes due to the lack of faults in the region...?

I thought these two maps were interesting when viewed together.

Most of the O&G wells tens to avoid the majority of the state's primary fault lines. Though there are extensive wells in South Central OK which has plenty of faults through the Arbuckles and some near the Meers Fault in the Wichitas. Definitely plenty along the Nemaha and Central OK fault zones though. However, it isn't practical to really test the theory in any reasonable manner. I would say increase the level of injections along the Meers Fault to see if anything can be triggered, but the size and expense to do that would be insane.

This is likely just going to be an issue to where there are multiple causes that when put together have led to an increase in fault line activity. Neither side will back down as both are very vocal and quite powerful. However, that doesn't mean either side is wrong or gets a pass. It just comes down to a case of risk assessment and adjusting as needed. We've seen states like Ohio make a move against injection wells after traditional very quiet areas started to have earthquakes shortly after operations started. As pointed out though, Oklahoma has been doing this for awhile which is why I think this is more or less a chain of events and not one single item.

http://www.weatherspotlight.com/screencap/ok_faults.gif

http://www.weatherspotlight.com/screencap/statewells_big.jpg

I'm 100% happy to go figure that something else is the cause of these earthquakes instead of the current scapegoat because no one can truly tie them to anything.

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So shutting down the well in Love County should be regarded as a wrong and foolish move, because the earthquakes there had to be a matter of coincidence? Besides that, it might have established an excuse to eventually shut down wells in Logan and Payne Counties.

I'm 100% happy to go figure that something else is the cause of these earthquakes instead of the current scapegoat because no one can truly tie them to anything.

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Scapegoat? Read the article. Yes, the fault lines and the quakes and the waste water injection are connected. There's no scapegoat. At some point you have to look at the evidence and reach a conclusion. And, yes, the evidence is there!

Scapegoat? Read the article. Yes, the fault lines and the quakes and the waste water injection are connected. There's no scapegoat. At some point you have to look at the evidence and reach a conclusion. And, yes, the evidence is there!

So the Colorado case brings me to the same issue that I have with the injection well theory in Oklahoma. Where are the earthquakes associated with the 300 plus disposal wells active in Colorado now and where were they with the thousands that have been drilled their since the 1920s? They have drilled more disposal wells in Colorado over the last decade with the increase in horizontal drilling and that hasn't translated to an increase in seismic activity. There was an earthquake swarm in the early 2,000s and one 2011 that was proven to be naturally occurring. There have been a few other earthquakes recently but none anywhere near drilling and injection activity. Same for north dakota where there has been a large increase in drilling/frac'ing since 2005 and nearly 500 new injection wells drilled in a state that had very few prior to the discovery of the bakken. There has been zero increase in seismic activity in North Dakota. Or in the Permian basin, one of the most heavily drilled areas in the county today and historically. There are now and have been historically a ton of disposal wells in west Texas with no major increase in seismic activity over the last decade. While geological conditions are different everywhere, there are still faults in every area where oil and gas is produced and water is injected so why is Oklahoma the only state in which this is happening on such a large scale and so frequently? I agree with the Oklahoma geological survey that we need to keep the disposal wells operational for one because they have no proof that injection, fracking, or anything else is causing earthquakes and two, there is no way to figure out why it's happening here without studying the wells they think are causing it, can't study them if they aren't active.


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Here is the endorsement for an earthquake policy. No exclusion for man made earthquakes.79727973

Scapegoat? Read the article. Yes, the fault lines and the quakes and the waste water injection are connected. There's no scapegoat. At some point you have to look at the evidence and reach a conclusion. And, yes, the evidence is there!

I read the article. There is still no conclusive evidence even if it points in that direction in that specific situation. There is no way to prove it is connected.

I read the article. There is still no conclusive evidence even if it points in that direction in that specific situation. There is no way to prove it is connected.

So go on with the injection wells as usual, since as long as the quakes stay under 4.0 in magnitude most of the time, they are easily quite tolerable?

Injection well operator in Logan County earthquake zone agrees to additional monitoring | News OK (http://newsok.com/injection-well-operator-in-logan-county-earthquake-zone-agrees-to-additional-monitoring/article/4864659)

So go on with the injection wells as usual, since as long as the quakes stay under 4.0 in magnitude most of the time, they are easily quite tolerable?

Yes, until a specific link has been provided.

We don't even know why we are conscious beings and people want more proof on waste water injection causation with the quakes?
Seriously, scientists agree already, unless they are in the employ of energy companies. What do you want? Need?

We are so tied to energy for our well-being that our state is in their pocket and its population brainwashed. Remember energy from fossil fuels will be history sooner than we expect. Are we ready to live and die on dirty coal, etc. for our state's future? (Sorry Mr. AG and OG&E on your defeat in the Supreme Court.)

This discussion about quakes and injection wells is completely ridiculous. It's clear, it's scientific and it is what it is. Wake-up Oklahoma!

It may be clear to you, but it isn't proven. You are welcome to your opinion though.

We don't even know why we are conscious beings and people want more proof on waste water injection causation with the quakes?
Seriously, scientists agree already, unless they are in the employ of energy companies. What do you want? Need?

We are so tied to energy for our well-being that our state is in their pocket and its population brainwashed. Remember energy from fossil fuels will be history sooner than we expect. Are we ready to live and die on dirty coal, etc. for our state's future? (Sorry Mr. AG and OG&E on your defeat in the Supreme Court.)

This discussion about quakes and injection wells is completely ridiculous. It's clear, it's scientific and it is what it is. Wake-up Oklahoma!

Clear to you maybe, but you are one of the most clearly biased posters on this site against the energy industry and based on your posts in these energy threads as well as your ridiculous comments about the GE facility, you can't even begin to deny that. I admit that I am obviously biased toward the energy industry but I back that up with my own experience and education on the subject as well as information I get from others that I would consider much more experienced and knowledgable then the geologists quoted in that article.

I will say that if you enjoy the prosperity of this city and state, you had better hope with every part of your being that the industry is not causing these earthquakes. If production companies cannot dispose of produced water it will, no doubt, substantially increase operating costs in Oklahoma or at minimum in certain higher water content plays, possibly to a point of rendering them uneconomic. An increased production tax may or may not effect operations in the state but the inability to dispose of water via disposal wells certainly would. I agree that if injection wells are PROVEN to be the cause of the earthquakes in Oklahoma, which they have NOT been, then we need to figure out how to reduce the risk, but until then your (and others) unwavering attempts to make the energy industry the scapegoat for all evil is freaking ridiculous. Contrary to your apparent belief, despite being employed by energy companies; we use science to back up our statements as well, not just our will to destroy the world. We support the industry based on the FACTS as we know them and not because we are paid or told to do so.

And as to your assertion that energy from fossil fuels will be history sooner rather than later, I think that's pretty hilarious. Detractors like you (and "scientists") have been saying the same since a few years after Edwin Drake completed the first successful oil well in 1859. It has certainly lasted longer than they expected and has greatly outlasted the expectations of "scientists" in the 1970s (or pick a decade) as well as the peak oil alarmists in the 1990s/2000s and will continue to do so throughout our lifetime.


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Prosperity? We just have to be willing to further deplete our surface and ground water supplies, live with daily earthquakes,subsidize the industry with our tax dollars while infrastructure and schools go under funded, and figure out what we will drink when this waste water makes its way back into our groundwater.

Sounds like a great deal for the long term.


My admitted bias is I'm on well water, in a high earthquake area and have kids who drink the water each day.

Double post.

Prosperity? We just have to be willing to further deplete our surface and ground water supplies, live with daily earthquakes,subsidize the industry with our tax dollars while infrastructure and schools go under funded, and figure out what we will drink when this waste water makes its way back into our groundwater.

Sounds like a great deal for the long term.

Your posts have and continue to be incredibly useless, filled with hyperbole, and add nothing to the discussion. You have become the edger of energy threads. I refuse to dignify anything you post with a thought out response. At least zookeeper is a generally respected poster here that, though I disagree with greatly, adds thought out points to the discussion.


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Nothing I said is untrue. We use 2-5 million gallons of water per well, dispose of waste water in deep Wells, having thousands of earthquakes a year and passed giving drillers another huge tax cut while state programs go under funded.

Sorry you don't like facts.

Your posts have and continue to be incredibly useless, filled with hyperbole, and add nothing to the discussion. You have become the edger of energy threads. I refuse to dignify anything you post with a thought out response. At least zookeeper is a generally respected poster here that, though I disagree with greatly, adds thought out points to the discussion.



I guess this is just hyperbole from the Journal Record since it doesnt serve your cause?

http://journalrecord.com/2014/05/28/prosperity-policy-they-caved-opinion/

During the final days of the legislative session, when the Oklahoma House and Senate were being swarmed by dozens of oil and gas lobbyists, I spotted a former legislator I had not seen for several years. I asked what brought him to the Capitol.
“As the owner of a business that services oil and gas rigs, I’ve been asked up here to tell legislators what would happen if we don’t extend the tax break on oil and gas production and all the rigs leave the state,” he said.
“But they won’t leave the state,” I said.
“I know,” he responded with an embarrassed little smile. Then he went back to work.


The situation was best summed up by former Oklahoma City Mayor Kirk Humphreys. Referring to the CEO of Devon Energy, one of the companies pushing hardest to extend the tax break, he said, “Do I blame Larry Nichols for doing what he’s doing? No, it’s his job to negotiate as good a deal as he can. But it’s also Mary Fallin’s job and the Legislature’s job to represent our interests and negotiate as good a deal as we can.

What ive never been surprised about is the amount of self serving people who will stop at nothing for short term profit. Like yourself, they will do and say anything for self interest regardless of the real and long term impact it has on the state and its citizens.

I guess this is just hyperbole from the Journal Record since it doesnt serve your cause?

http://journalrecord.com/2014/05/28/prosperity-policy-they-caved-opinion/




What ive never been surprised about is the amount of self serving people who will stop at nothing for short term profit. Like yourself, they will do and say anything for self preservation regardless of the real impact and long term impact it has on the state and its citizens.

Wrong thread, but way to counter with an article that has nothing to do with this discussion because it "serves your cause." For the record, I said that I wouldn't be opposed to a production tax increase in the thread that actually pertains to it.


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Yes, until a specific link has been provided.

So the closing of the well in Love County surely had to be based on junk science?

Wrong thread, but way to counter with an article that has nothing to do with this discussion because it "serves your cause."

You qouted my post and said it was hyperbole so I proved once again that it wasnt.

-How are we not using millions of gallons of ground and surface water?
Hyperbole!!!
-How is there not a dramatic increase in earthquakes?
Hyperbole!!
-How did we not give drillers another huge taxpayer handout??
Hyperbole!@@!@
-How is my family not on well water
Hyperbole!!@#@

I've said it in other threads and i'll say it again. My family has been here for over 100 years, I own fractional mineral rights and dont plan on going anywhere any time soon.

You, are a temporary out of state worker and when the boom ends your job will be long gone. So dont give us BS about -


I will say that if you enjoy the prosperity of this city and state, you had better hope with every part of your being that the industry is not causing these earthquakes.

Now that's hyperbole.

You qouted my post and said it was hyperbole so I proved once again that it wasnt.

-How are we not using millions of gallons of ground and surface water?
Hyperbole!!!
-How is there not a dramatic increase in earthquakes?
Hyperbole!!
-How did we not give drillers another huge taxpayer handout??
Hyperbole!@@!@
-How is my family not on well water
Hyperbole!!@#@

I've said it in other threads and i'll say it again. My family has been here for over 100 years, I own fractional mineral rights and dont plan on going anywhere any time soon.

You, are a temporary out of state worker and when the boom ends your job will be long gone. So dont give us BS about -



Now that's hyperbole.Your family has been here 100 years, huh? Jeeze man... what a long time. You know, the earth has only been here around 4 billion years as well.

You might be interested to know about the Nemaha fault line that runs right through OKC.

http://emsnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/oklahoma-earthquake-map.png?w=500&h=336

Nemaha Ridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemaha_Ridge)

Do you honestly think that earthquakes would have to gradually increase in order for it to be natural? Just blaming fracking is always the easiest thing to do. Meanwhile when you look at all the water wells drying up which have been tied to earthquakes in the past....

It is possible fracking could be tied in some way, but (a) that's pre-mature to say that and (b) these tremors are very small and really nothing to worry about...

It's always amusing to watch the anti-inudstry activist and/or global warming propagators go crazy at the smallest hint of a man-induced environment change or disaster yet stray from the facts such as the planet actually cooling down long-term from what it used to be.

Panda I have a long-term vested interest In keeping natural gas(which are the wells we have) in production but also finding ways to protect our water sources. Without clean and drinkable water any place is uninhabitable for people & livestock.

Doesn't matter how big the royalty check is.

I understand. My point is, we need to make sure we research things before making any final decisions so we don't want to hamper our progress, but at the same time, we don't want to have to try and explain to our future generations that we did what we thought was good the economy at the time either.

You qouted my post and I'm still waiting for my hyperbole excuse.

-How are we not using millions of gallons of ground and surface water?
Hyperbole!!!
-How is there not a dramatic increase in earthquakes?
Hyperbole!!
-How did we not give drillers a huge taxpayer handout??
Hyperbole!@@!@
-How is my family not on well water
Hyperbole!!@#@

I've said it in other threads and i'll say it again. My family has been here for over 100 years, I own fractional mineral rights and dont plan on going anywhere any time soon.

You, are a temporary out of state worker. So dont give me some BS about -



Thats hyperbole.

Water usage: context - assuming every hydraulically fractured well per year in ok used 5,000,000 gallons - that would account for less than 1.6% of yearly water usage in Oklahoma compared to 42% public use, 32% for irrigation, 12% livestock and Ag. If you actually care about water usage, go lobby for increased water restrictions on irrigation. The energy industry is hardly a major cause in further depleting our ground and especially surface water. Those calculations don't take into account the fact that many companies are starting to reuse and not dispose of 20% of the frac water that is recoverable from a frac job.

"Figure out what we'll drink when this waste water makes its way back into the ground water" - hyperbole - this rarely occurs with disposal well standards of today and when it has, it's been on a very small scale and due to poor casing design which is easily preventable. They are drilled well below the water table.

"Dispose of water in deep wells" again - context - it depends on the disposal well. Most are between 3,000 and 7,000 feet deep. We drill some producing wells much deeper than that. Also almost of the earthquakes are occurring between 3 and 5 miles deep.

Tax payer handout- irrelevant to this thread but your assertion that the energy industry is causing schools and infrastructure to be under funded is hyperbole, especially when the energy industry pays more in taxes and has a greater economic impact then most in the state.

Short term vs. long term impact - I would argue that the long term economic impact of the oil and gas industry on the state of Oklahoma and Oklahoma City has far outweighed any negative impacts even if it was proven that the industry has caused ever single earthquake in the state's history.

Junk you spewed about me and anyone that works in or supports the energy industry being self serving and doing anything for our self interest regardless of long term impacts - that's some pretty bold and awesomely self-righteous stuff there as well as complete crap, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Increase in earthquakes - I said filled with hyperbole, not that every word was hyperbole.

Family water well- again I said filled with hyperbole, not that every word was hyperbole and you added that to your post after I replied.

My quote about prosperity in the city in state is not hyperbole as the energy industry has been one of the biggest reasons of OKC's resurgence as well as oklahoma's current economic position and low unemployment rate. Do something like, disallow waste water disposal without any proof that it's causing earthquakes, and that will have a very negative effect on the energy industry thus the city and state with no factual basis for doing so.

Finally, at the risk of sinking as low as you did in this post... My family arrived in Oklahoma during the cherokee outlet landrun of 1893 and I've lived here my entire life. I went to college here, am employed here and own a home here. The majority of people in the energy industry here are not "out of state workers" and have also lived here most of their lives or have permanently relocated here. There are likely as many or more Oklahomans working as "out of state workers" in other states as there are out of staters working here. My family has been in the industry nearly as long as we've been in the state and survived more boom and bust cycles than you apparently have an understanding of if you think my job will "long gone" if the boom ends. Further, economic conditions surrounding this boom are far different than those preceding the bust of the 1980s. The rest of the undeveloped world is rapidly industrializing led by China and India. Economic power has always been tied to access to or ability to acquire resources. One of the most important resources is energy. Two Of the easiest sources of energy to transport are oil and gas...hint, China, India, and the rest of the developing world want more oil and gas and we have a lot of it. Even if our need for oil and gas was substantially reduced over the next few decades, that won't cut their demand. Aside from those nations disappearing, their thirst for energy will not dissipate. A boom "ending" would likely be more of a boom on hold as it was in 2008 during the recession. Most energy industry connections I have were able to ride that out without that much difficulty. Discussing this boom's "end" also doesn't take into account the fact that natural gas prices are very low right now, that drilling for nat gas has been greatly reduced, and we have a ton of it. Increased reliance on natural gas as a clean alternative to coal for power generation and the increased export of LNG will add more stability to that commodity in the future. So thanks for the attempted low blow there, but you really have no idea what you are talking about.


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Prosperity? We just have to be willing to further deplete our surface and ground water supplies, live with daily earthquakes,subsidize the industry with our tax dollars while infrastructure and schools go under funded, and figure out what we will drink when this waste water makes its way back into our groundwater.

Sounds like a great deal for the long term.


My admitted bias is I'm on well water, in a high earthquake area and have kids who drink the water each day.

We've already gone over this in another thread, and I explained how extracting resources from the subsurface and introducing them into the water cycle negates any water losses and actually ADDS water to the water cycle. You claim that your opinions are based on the science, yet you ignore any facts that contradict what you want to believe.

We (as a species) are depleting our water aquifers at an alarming rate, but it is not because of oil and gas extraction.

As PhiAlpha said, just because water injection wells happen in an area that experiences tremors in Oklahoma does not mean that they HAVE to be linked. Why is there no seismic activity in other areas of the country where they inject far more water into the subsurface than we do? Why was there no seismic activity in the past in formations that were aggressively waterflooded, where they pumped far more water into the subsurface than a normal produced water injection well? Just because 1 or 2 or your 10 samples appears to show a correlation between two variables doesn't mean you can ignore the other 8 or 9 samples and form your conclusion. You back up your opinions with science, yet any scientist who made a claim based on a relationship that materialized in only 1 or 2 of their 10 trials would be completely discredited in the scientific community. There are far more variables that come into play when looking at local geology and potential seismic activity, and to make a broad assumption based solely off of what happens here in OK is incredibly shortsighted. There are a lot of question that need to be answered and studies that need to take place, both here in OK and throughout the rest of the country, and that is what is happening.

Phi Alpha – I honestly appreciate the well thought out post and appreciate you leaving out the hyperbole of your own.

Questions I have, how did you arrive at that figure of 1.6% year usage, I see the 5 Million gallons per well but did you X it by total wells that are fraced and then ref-raced per year?

What concerns me is that numerous places in Texas have already had their entire ground water supplies drained by drilling operations and now the people who live in the area are being forced to either truck in water supplies or abandon farms.

That’s what worries me about numerous places in Western Oklahoma and the Panhandle. Our place is down in SE Oklahoma and while I cant say we’ve had to redrill any water wells yet, but alot of people are pretty adamant about water quantity and quality deteriorating with increased activity. Its very easy to sit in an office in OKC and say drilling activity has nothing to do with it, when its not your farm and your family drinking the water - so who am I to say they are wrong?

I work in an office where alot of people wont drink the OKC City Tap water from the water fountain and only drink bottled water. So its hard for me to say to people back home, your water out of the ground that you say now smells and taste different (and is not tested by any city or agency) is completely safe and healthy to drink and ignore all that activity a quarter mile down the road.

We've already gone over this in another thread, and I explained how extracting resources from the subsurface and introducing them into the water cycle negates any water losses and actually ADDS water to the water cycle. You claim that your opinions are based on the science, yet you ignore any facts that contradict what you want to believe.


Yes, and we also covered how you cant drink exhaust and how water re-entering the water cycle around the globe does nothing for the place where it was depleted.

Did you even read the Wikipedia link I provided about Fracking where it stated that it occurs thousands of feet below aquafiers and watertables? Only a doomsday earthquake is going to kill our water supply and if it's a meteor, I doubt you'll live long enough to deal with that situation.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5

No one needs an 100th explanation about fracing.

This is a thread about waste water injection.

No one needs an 100th explanation about fracing.

This is a thread about waste water injection.

My father in law owns a small oil company. I asked him the other day about waste water injection. He told me they owned a disposal well back in the 80's in Logan county that they hauled water to on a daily basis. I asked if they had a high pressure pump on the well and he said they barely had a pump at all. He said the waste water was returned to a zone that was being liquid depleted and they basically were replacing the oil that was extracted. Now this was a long time ago and not to the extent of today, but it wouldn't surprise me if the drought going on isn't a major contributer to the problem.

Did you even read the Wikipedia link I provided about Fracking where it stated that it occurs thousands of feet below aquafiers and watertables? Only a doomsday earthquake is going to kill our water supply and if it's a meteor, I doubt you'll live long enough to deal with that situation.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5I've seen different articles stating different things about it. I hope you know how deep aquifers can go. They aren't shallow by any means.

I've seen different articles stating different things about it. I hope you know how deep aquifers can go. They aren't shallow by any means.

Way, way more shallow then the vast majority of oil and gas formations we're drilling.


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In comparison to the core of the earth they're shallow :p

I just meant they aren't shallow in general. I'm not familiar with how deep you guys are drill though.

Yes, and we also covered how you cant drink exhaust and how water re-entering the water cycle around the globe does nothing for the place where it was depleted.

What concerns me is that numerous places in Texas have already had their entire ground water supplies drained by drilling operations and now the people who live in the area are being forced to either truck in water supplies or abandon farms.

Look at water usage in areas where oil and gas drilling is taking place. PhiAlpha's 1.6% of total water use is pretty close. That's obviously going to vary depending on what other industries or processes are taking place in the area, but overall that's pretty close. Like I said, surface water is being depleted at an alarming rate but it is not because of oil and gas drilling.

And, by the way, oil and gas companies have to acquire permits to use water. If a small town in Texas chooses to allocate water (among all the different active industries in the area) faster than the surface water and ground water can naturally replenish itself then I don't see how that is the oil and gas industry's fault. Then again I guess it's expected, because for a lot of people everything is the oil and gas industry's fault regardless of who else is involved.

Pwitt - I like how you left out ground water. Don't know many people who have pipes running from a lake to their house for drinking.

Edit not needed.


Beverly McGuire saw the warning signs before the town well went dry: sand in the toilet bowl, the sputter of air in the tap, a pump working overtime to no effect. But it still did not prepare her for the night last month when she turned on the tap and discovered the tiny town where she had made her home for 35 years was out of water.

"The day that we ran out of water I turned on my faucet and nothing was there and at that moment I knew the whole of Barnhart was down the tubes," she said, blinking back tears. "I went: 'dear God help us. That was the first thought that came to mind."

Across the south-west, residents of small communities like Barnhart are confronting the reality that something as basic as running water, as unthinking as turning on a tap, can no longer be taken for granted.

Three years of drought, decades of overuse and now the oil industry's outsize demands on water for fracking are running down reservoirs and underground aquifers. And climate change is making things worse.

In Texas alone, about 30 communities could run out of water by the end of the year, according to the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality.

Nearly 15 million people are living under some form of water rationing, barred from freely sprinkling their lawns or refilling their swimming pools. In Barnhart's case, the well appears to have run dry because the water was being extracted for shale gas fracking.

The drought undoubtedly took its toll but Owens reserved his anger for the contractors who drilled 104 water wells on his leased land, to supply the oil companies.

Water levels were dropping in his wells because of the vast amounts of water being pumped out of the Edwards-Trinity-Plateau Aquifer, a 34,000 sq mile water bearing formation.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/aug/11/texas-tragedy-ample-oil-no-water

My mistake. I said surface water, implying both stream and ground water sources, but I guess I should have been more specific. I've edited it so I don't confuse anyone else.

All water use by oil and gas companies is regulated and requires permits, whether the water comes from streams or from groundwater aquifers. It doesn't matter. The OWRB website has all kinds of PDF's containing facts and figures for water permitting and water use in Oklahoma.

Oklahoma Water Resources Board (https://www.owrb.ok.gov/supply/watuse/gwwateruse.php)

Texas RRC: Barnett Water Use (http://www.rrc.state.tx.us/barnettshale/wateruse.php)

Your link is unfortunate but like I said in my last post, if the town is permitting stream water and groundwater for use faster than they know it is being replenished then they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Phi Alpha – I honestly appreciate the well thought out post and appreciate you leaving out the hyperbole of your own.

Questions I have, how did you arrive at that figure of 1.6% year usage, I see the 5 Million gallons per well but did you X it by total wells that are fraced and then ref-raced per year?

What concerns me is that numerous places in Texas have already had their entire ground water supplies drained by drilling operations and now the people who live in the area are being forced to either truck in water supplies or abandon farms.

That’s what worries me about numerous places in Western Oklahoma and the Panhandle. Our place is down in SE Oklahoma and while I cant say we’ve had to redrill any water wells yet, but alot of people are pretty adamant about water quantity and quality deteriorating with increased activity. Its very easy to sit in an office in OKC and say drilling activity has nothing to do with it, when its not your farm and your family drinking the water - so who am I to say they are wrong?

I work in an office where alot of people wont drink the OKC City Tap water from the water fountain and only drink bottled water. So its hard for me to say to people back home, your water out of the ground that you say now smells and taste different (and is not tested by any city or agency) is completely safe and healthy to drink and ignore all that activity a quarter mile down the road.

Appreciate your thought out response as well, I'll reply back to this when I have a chance later today.

4 states confirm water pollution from drilling (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/01/05/some-states-confirm-water-pollution-from-drilling/4328859/)

So the closing of the well in Love County surely had to be based on junk science?

The closing of that well has nothing at all to do with my answer.

4 states confirm water pollution from drilling (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/01/05/some-states-confirm-water-pollution-from-drilling/4328859/)

Quite possible but that has nothing to do with earthquakes.

Speaking of earthquakes. Just had a pretty good one here just now.

Also in general industry news yesterday fallin signed a bill to start reusing treated sewage water for drinking because of the ongoing drought and increased business useage. Previously treated was was discharged into Canadian river.

Coming soon to your tap at home.