I am not saying OKC has no good retail (they do, I love Allton's!!). But it is kind of depressing knowing Nordstrom doesn't think enough of OKC to have a store here, yet they have stores in smaller markets, like Providence, among others. OKC has enough wealth to support one of these stores.

OKC needs one of these as a branding point. I am not criticizing anyone or their views, I just feel a Nordstrom would do wonders for OKC.
You will be surprised comparing OKC to Providence. It is obvious why Nordstrom is in one and not the other.
https://datausa.io/profile/geo/providence-new-bedford-fall-river-ri-ma-metro-area/?compare=oklahoma-city-ok

You're right that Classen Curve is coming along nicely and is much improved compared to how it was under the previous owners. No space for an upscale department store though. Now if they would build the "lifestyle" portion that was originally supposed to be anchored by REI...

I think the space next behind west elm and anthropology would be a large enough space for a similar size of saks in Utica.

I think the space next behind west elm and anthropology would be a large enough space for a similar size of saks in Utica.

Agreed. That's where REI was originally supposed to go before it was held up by NIMBYs. I still think that would have been a better location than in a shopping center with a Wal-Mart and Ross.

You will be surprised comparing OKC to Providence. It is obvious why Nordstrom is in one and not the other.
https://datausa.io/profile/geo/providence-new-bedford-fall-river-ri-ma-metro-area/?compare=oklahoma-city-ok

You're comparing the Providence Metro Area to Oklahoma City proper.

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/providence-new-bedford-fall-river-ri-ma-metro-area/?compare=oklahoma-city-ok-metro-area

Still shows pretty much the same thing though.

You're comparing the Providence Metro Area to Oklahoma City proper.

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/providence-new-bedford-fall-river-ri-ma-metro-area/?compare=oklahoma-city-ok-metro-area

Still shows pretty much the same thing though.

Thanks for the correction. I guess I used the wrong drop box entity.

What retailers look for primarily is density and high incomes within a 1-, 3- and 5-mile radius from any proposed location.

OKC always looks bad in this type of analysis because we are not densely populated anywhere in the metro and our incomes are low due to the low cost of living.

So, when things get to the final decision makers, the numbers always look bad.

Wait what?... All of Nicolas Hills/Classen Curve is upscale. Utica Square is also so run down now, even the landscaping is terrible.

It looks the same as it always has, obviously a lot depends on when you go it will look different in the winter vs. when they plant a lot of flowers in the spring. They do need to infill the Miss Jackson’s/Petty’s site, maybe a Nordstrom will fit there :wink:

What retailers look for primarily is density and high incomes within a 1-, 3- and 5-mile radius from any proposed location.

OKC always looks bad in this type of analysis because we are not densely populated anywhere in the metro and our incomes are low due to the low cost of living.

So, when things get to the final decision makers, the numbers always look bad.

The other problem that OKC has is that it’s areas of high income are dispersed and are surrounded and intermingled with areas of low income. Nichols Hills is wealthy, but a 3-mile or 5-mile analysis would include the Village and areas east of Western/Wilshire. Quail Creek is well off, but geographically close to the apartments along 122nd/Penn. Even farther north, there are beautiful subdivisions and then they put $200K tract homes all interspersed in between.

The other problem that OKC has is that it’s areas of high income are dispersed and are surrounded and intermingled with areas of low income. Nichols Hills is wealthy, but a 3-mile or 5-mile analysis would include the Village and areas east of Western/Wilshire. Quail Creek is well off, but geographically close to the apartments along 122nd/Penn. Even farther north, there are beautiful subdivisions and then they put $200K tract homes all interspersed in between.

That's right.

I have mentioned before that for years I was a commercial real estate broker that specialized in retail properties in OKC. Worked with lots of national retailers and OKC was always a tough sell because no matter the site, the 3- and 5- mile radius demographics never looked good, at least when just looking at cold numbers.

It's one of the big reasons the big boys and higher end places have been slow to come here.

But, once they do, virtually all of them exceed expectations and that has helped bring more and more.

I've updated the list on the first post of this thread.

I would appreciate those with Tulsa knowledge to mention any stores I've missed and to double-check everything.

Thanks, Pete!

I believe Art of Shaving is now closed. Last time I was at Penn, it wasn’t operating.

for OKC, quickly off the top of my head - don't we also have Aldi and Winco, and (coming soon) Alamo Drafthouse, Bob's Chophouse, and Ruth's Chris?

Can't wait for the IKEA announcement as well.

Also exclusive to OKC is V's Barbershop. Don't know if you'd consider that retail or not though.

That's right.

I have mentioned before that for years I was a commercial real estate broker that specialized in retail properties in OKC. Worked with lots of national retailers and OKC was always a tough sell because no matter the site, the 3- and 5- mile radius demographics never looked good, at least when just looking at cold numbers.

It's one of the big reasons the big boys and higher end places have been slow to come here.

But, once they do, virtually all of them exceed expectations and that has helped bring more and more.

And what's funny is that this is seen as a good thing from so many other perspectives because it keeps a "class" segregation down better. Not that we dont still have it via private schools/gated neighborhoods/etc, but in general the wealth distribution in OKC is MUCH more balanced than in other cities. I just wish more retailers would see the light earlier in the game rather than later so we dont have to go through the song-and-dance each time to convince someone to come here.

Wait what?... All of Nicolas Hills/Classen Curve is upscale. Utica Square is also so run down now, even the landscaping is terrible.

Lol. Utica square is the furthest thing from run down.

I've updated the list on the first post of this thread.

I would appreciate those with Tulsa knowledge to mention any stores I've missed and to double-check everything.

As I said on the last page, Tulsa exclusively has a Pendletons. It also exclusively has a Marmi shoes and gearhead outfitters,

Additionally, Tulsa is getting a Winco.

for OKC, quickly off the top of my head - don't we also have Aldi and Winco, and (coming soon) Alamo Drafthouse, Bob's Chophouse, and Ruth's Chris?

Can't wait for the IKEA announcement as well.

Tulsa I believe has several Aldi's and a Ruth Chris at River Spirit.

Restaurants are not included in the list.

ALDI'S are pretty much "everywhere".

I believe Aldi came to OKC before Tulsa, but can't confirm.

Does quik trip count? ;)

Regarding the fresh market in Tulsa; I have no idea how it stays open. I just bought a home nearby so I visit it quite often, and half the time there are more employees than customers. It is really, really nice - the nicest in oklahoma imo - but prices out 85% of oklahoma shoppers.

Does quik trip count? ;)

Not unless OnCue does.

I never saw an Aldi in OKC until I moved out of Norman (2011), but I know there were Aldi's in Tulsa before I moved out from Tulsa (2006)

Not unless OnCue does.

Quick Trip is a semi-national chain with 800 locations in 13 states with more than 20k employees and $10 billion a year in sales while being regarded as the best convince store brand in the nation along with Philly based WaWa. OneCue is not. They aren't comparable.

I never saw an Aldi in OKC until I moved out of Norman (2011), but I know there were Aldi's in Tulsa before I moved out from Tulsa (2006)

I'm not sure why anyone cares about who had Aldi first, but the first Aldi in the Tulsa area that I'm aware of is the one on Memorial in Bixby in front of the Starworld movie theater. They opened about the same time 20 years ago. But then Lawrence, KS had an Aldi when I went to college at KU in the late 80s, I used to shop there in college. I've never been to an Aldi in Tulsa.

Quick Trip is a semi-national chain with 800 locations in 13 states with more than 20k employees and $10 billion a year in sales while being regarded as the best convince store brand in the nation along with Philly based WaWa. OneCue is not. They aren't comparable.

you are right oncue's are nicer ..

Quick Trip is a semi-national chain with 800 locations in 13 states with more than 20k employees and $10 billion a year in sales while being regarded as the best convince store brand in the nation along with Philly based WaWa. OneCue is not. They aren't comparable.

And they aren't relevant to this conversation, which is why they are left off the list, along with 7/11 and restaurants.

Quick Trip is .... OneCue is not. They aren't comparable.

Not that it matters, but they are the same thing and, in pretty much every metric except maybe "semi-national" status, totally comparable. Personally, I'm indifferent to both. If I need gas, a quart of oil, wiper fluid, chapstick, a slushie and a hot dog on warming rollers and need it all immediately from the same place, my preference is gonna be the one that is closest to me at that time of crisis.

I do have to say, though, that the inevitable mention of QT in every thread / discussion comparing some aspect of OKC and Tulsa is one of the most endearing things about Tulsans (and, also, the epitome of the daftness of the whole exercise). I've never felt that level of affection or loyalty towards a convenience store chain. I know it's headquartered there, like Love's is here, but I have to give it to QT for making their brand of convenience stores inseparable from their community's identity and, even, a point of civic pride. It's any brand managers dream.

Not that it matters, but they are the same thing and, in pretty much every metric except maybe "semi-national" status, totally comparable. Personally, I'm indifferent to both. If I need gas, a quart of oil, wiper fluid, chapstick, a slushie and a hot dog on warming rollers and need it all immediately from the same place, my preference is gonna be the one that is closest to me at that time of crisis.

I do have to say, though, that the inevitable mention of QT in every thread / discussion comparing some aspect of OKC and Tulsa is one of the most endearing things about Tulsans (and, also, the epitome of the daftness of the whole exercise). I've never felt that level of affection or loyalty towards a convenience store chain. I know it's headquartered there, like Love's is here, but I have to give it to QT for making their brand of convenience stores inseparable from their community's identity and, even, a point of civic pride. It's any brand managers dream.

This post made me grin pretty darn wide...

Regarding the fresh market in Tulsa; I have no idea how it stays open. I just bought a home nearby so I visit it quite often, and half the time there are more employees than customers. It is really, really nice - the nicest in oklahoma imo - but prices out 85% of oklahoma shoppers.

I agree it’s a great store! I’ve been to the one on Hilton Head Island, SC too. The one in Tulsa is near high income neighborhoods so they must help keep it open but also competes with the South Tulsa Whole Foods a mile away.

Not that it matters, but they are the same thing and, in pretty much every metric except maybe "semi-national" status, totally comparable. Personally, I'm indifferent to both. If I need gas, a quart of oil, wiper fluid, chapstick, a slushie and a hot dog on warming rollers and need it all immediately from the same place, my preference is gonna be the one that is closest to me at that time of crisis.

I do have to say, though, that the inevitable mention of QT in every thread / discussion comparing some aspect of OKC and Tulsa is one of the most endearing things about Tulsans (and, also, the epitome of the daftness of the whole exercise). I've never felt that level of affection or loyalty towards a convenience store chain. I know it's headquartered there, like Love's is here, but I have to give it to QT for making their brand of convenience stores inseparable from their community's identity and, even, a point of civic pride. It's any brand managers dream.

which also tells you all you need to know about tulsa ... their civic pride is based on a gas station chain and that they have hills .. (i guess they have never been to the east side of the okc metro)

This post made me grin pretty darn wide...

Same! I think it's funny that Tulsans like talk about how much better QT is than Oncue, almost unprompted at times, when they are almost in every way the same.

Same! I think it's funny that Tulsans like talk about how much better QT is than Oncue, almost unprompted at times, when they are almost in every way the same.

No, that's simply not true. By far most people in Tulsa have never even heard of Oncue and have no idea it even exists.

OnCue and QT are the same store except that OnCue has a cover from the gas pumps to the store. So therefore, OnCue > QT

OnCue and QT are the same store except that OnCue has a cover from the gas pumps to the store. So therefore, OnCue > QT

Not exactly. The two are very similar but QT places a high emphasis on fast checkout that few other convenience stores can match. They also make a ton of high quality cold sandwiches within the company that get distributed to most of their stores; OnCue sources theirs from a third-party supplier that just aren't as tasty, in my opinion. There's a few other minor differences too. Personally, I'm super glad we have OnCue in OKC - they've been nothing short of revolutionary for the local market in terms of convenience stores - but I understand why people would still have a preference for QT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvQPHGzVrlY

No, that's simply not true. By far most people in Tulsa have never even heard of Oncue and have no idea it even exists.

Ok Swake. I guess you spend your time exclusively around people who never venture out of Tulsa to OKC or other parts of the state. My statement is 100% true about experiences with people I know and have met in Tulsa.

Ok Swake. I guess you spend your time exclusively around people who never venture out of Tulsa to OKC or other parts of the state. My statement is 100% true about experiences with people I know and have met in Tulsa.

i go to the Tulsa area 2 or 3 times a week ... and your statement is 100% correct from my experience ..

Other than the fact that most QT's I've seen don't offer 100% gas, the differences between the two to me are negligible.

OnCue vs QT sounds a lot like the Sam's vs Costco debate.

OnCue vs QT sounds a lot like the Sam's vs Costco debate.

Yeah. QT fans build it up as better in nearly every way than OnCue but they are for all intents and purposes, the same store with a few minor differences. The biggest difference for awhile in favor of QT was the QT Kitchens that they started adding (the food is actually pretty good) but now OnCue is doing the same thing in some of their older stores and all of their new ones so that's mostly been cancelled out.

Dry Goods to open first Oklahoma location at Woodland Hills (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/dry-goods-to-open-first-oklahoma-location-at-woodland-hills/article_b8396e09-66ab-5842-9400-b2b78710ef6f.html)

Dry Goods to open first Oklahoma location at Woodland Hills (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/dry-goods-to-open-first-oklahoma-location-at-woodland-hills/article_b8396e09-66ab-5842-9400-b2b78710ef6f.html)

They've already pulled a building permit for Penn Square Mall.

Maybe the Tulsa store will edge it out in terms of opening date?

Both are scheduled to open in Fall of 2019 on Simon's website.

Maybe they will brand both as "First to Oklahoma", open them at the exact same time so they are both first, and turn this whole Tulsa/OKC rivalry into an advantage. We fall for it and spend all our money on the first day.

OnCue vs QT sounds a lot like the Sam's vs Costco debate.

Or Apple vs the rest of the industry.

QT seems to be on the cutting edge (if possible) in this particular niche. There may be a few other QTs out there, but not that I have seen in this part of the country.

There are a few locals that do one thing as well as QT, but none that I can tell can put it all together in the way they do.

However, in Tulsa anyway, a disturbing new trend has been to have gun fights outside of QTs. I'm sure I've missed plenty of bad news over the last few months, but I swear every other breaking alert on my phone that involves a shooting happened at a QT. Maybe it's less that shooters are drawn to them so much as there are just QTs everywhere, so odds are that's where it would happen.

Maybe it's less that shooters are drawn to them so much as there are just QTs everywhere, so odds are that's where it would happen.

Bingo, QT’s are all over Tulsa at almost every major intersection including higher crime areas on the north and east side.

However, in Tulsa anyway, a disturbing new trend has been to have gun fights outside of QTs. I'm sure I've missed plenty of bad news over the last few months, but I swear every other breaking alert on my phone that involves a shooting happened at a QT. Maybe it's less that shooters are drawn to them so much as there are just QTs everywhere, so odds are that's where it would happen.

The Circle K by where I work has had a shooting twice during the past year.

I'd say in OKC, it seems like Circle Ks are frequent targets.

From the Gazette:

Retail Oklahoma
The Oklahoma City metro is seeing an influx of new-to-market retailers.
BY MIGUEL RIOS

[img]http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/oakgazette.jpg]/img]

Oak is one of several developments attracting new retailers to the metro area. - WAKEFIELD BEASLEY & ASSOCIATES / PROVIDED
Wakefield Beasley & Associates / provided
Oak is one of several developments attracting new retailers to the metro area.

While traditional retail appears to be on a decline in some markets, Oklahoma is seeing various new retailers throughout the metro. About a dozen new-to-market stores have opened recently, and more are coming soon.

Tammy Fate, senior manager of retail development and recruitment for Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, said the metro’s growing population, which is now about 1.3 million according to a 2010 U.S. Census estimate, helps draw retailers.

“When you hit that 1.5 million in your population, you kind of become more on people’s radar, and we’re getting closer to that threshold,” Fate said. “People are also seeing the success that other retailers are having. All these retailers talk, and it’s becoming more about being part of a master plan development, not just coming out here and setting up shop by yourself. … Like Chisholm Creek had a 180-acre master plan development. There’s so many retailers, and they kind of play off of each other in that development.”

Chisholm Creek is a mixed-use development offering dining, shopping and entertainment on Memorial Road and Western Avenue. In May, it announced the next phase of development, which would include five-story buildings with office space, more apartments, additional retail and a boutique hotel.

On the other side of Western Avenue stands Oklahoma City’s first Costco Wholesale, which hosted a grand opening in early May at which store managers estimated nearly 8,000 people had already signed up for memberships.

The Half is another development Fate said serves as an example of retailers playing off each other. The 52-acre development, which is named for being the halfway point between downtown OKC and Edmond, is the future home of two more new-to-market retailers opening in 2020: Texas-based Flix Brewhouse, a microbrewery and movie theater, and Chicken N Pickle, an indoor-outdoor entertainment complex with a restaurant, a sports bar and pickleball courts.

Oak, a third development attracting retailers to the area, was announced in July. Formerly known as Penn Central, the new 20-acre development just south of Nichols Hills will have a 4-star hotel, 12 bars and restaurants and 250,000 square feet of retail and office space. Officials hope for a 2020 groundbreaking.

When recruiting retailers, Fate said her role is to sell the market in general, so she doesn’t necessarily favor one development over another.

“We’ve worked with some of the retailers that are looking at going into the Oak,” she said. “We showcase the entire market. I’ve done driving tours and met with several of the tenants that are looking at Oak, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the cost of the lease and terms and location and all those things. Our job is to make sure they are aware of the opportunities and possibilities within our market. At that point, as long as they locate to Oklahoma City, my goal was accomplished.”

New to Oklahoma

One of the most recent store openings was REI in the former Babies R Us space at Belle Isle Station. The Seattle-based outdoor retailer hosted a two-day grand opening celebration at its newest location, a 23,000 square-foot facility next to Nordstrom Rack. Fate said REI is one of her favorite stores and was elated to have a hand in finally bringing it to Oklahoma City. Before officially committing to open a location in OKC, she had been selling the market for years and it is a good example of the fact that they have to customize recruitment strategies from retailer to retailer.
“Pushing that one over the edge was really trying to get them to understand that even though we don’t have mountains here or the type of topography that they typically like to locate in — like a Colorado or a Washington, where their headquarters are — there’s still a lot of active people here from hiking and biking and some climbing opportunities,” she said. “It takes years to really build that relationship. I’ve been doing retail development for about 15 years now total, and it’s always been on my target list. I’ve toured with them many times, and … really just continued to reach out and make sure that we stayed in the forefront of being on their agenda and their mind.”

“There’s a lot of momentum and lot of positive growth that it makes it attractive.”
—Tammy Fate

Penn Square Mall also saw new-to-market retailers like Untuckit and Dry Goods, two clothing stores, open earlier this year. The Container Store also opened its first Oklahoma location just northwest of Penn Square Mall last September.

“We worked on [The Container Store] for many years, and then they had to get approval through the neighborhood to even build there because it had to be rezoned,” Fate said. “Even though a retailer wants to be here, some of them have such specifics in terms of the demographics that they’re willing to locate in. I think that’s the thing that a lot of people don’t understand. They know who their customer is, and they know their disposable income, who the shopper is and what their target is.”

At Classen Curve, national developer Washington Prime Group has brought several new retailers and restaurants to Oklahoma City since acquiring the shopping center. Trader Joe’s, Drybar, Sur la Table, Warby Parker and Bonobos are among the already-open, new-to-Oklahoma retailers in Classen Curve. The next one comes this weekend when western wear brand Tecovas hosts its grand opening.

“You’re seeing ecommerce sites that are opening brick-and-mortar locations now. Warby Parker is an example of an ecommerce store that just opened at Classen Curve, and even Bonobos,” she said. “There’s a lot of these different stores that started out online. But then they realized they needed to have that brick-and-mortar presence and that Oklahoma City kind of fits that opportunity.”

Other new-to-market retailers across the metro area include recently opened Duluth Trading Co., Cost Plus World Market in Norman and ShowBiz Cinemas in Edmond. Round 1, a big Japan-based entertainment complex, is set to open in Quail Springs Mall in 2020 or 2021.

Retail outlook

Through her role, Fate spends a lot of time at trade shows, pitching Oklahoma City. She said MAPS is one of the big things that sets OKC apart, along with some of the unique districts and the fact that the city is 620 square miles.
“The future looks positive,” she said. “From our traditional economic development team, we have like over 90 projects in the pipeline, so showing a very healthy economy and showing that there’s companies that want to be here and move here. The traditional economic development team has had such a successful year. Last year alone, it was 7,355 new jobs that were added to the metro, and the capital investment was $495 million. That was either a project that was announced or opened in 2018.

“When people see those companies locating here and seeing the housing market as well as the growth that’s happening and those kinds of things, it really helps kind of move the needle for retail as well. … It’s a fun city to promote. There’s so much happening here, and there’s a lot of momentum and lot of positive growth that it makes it attractive for people to consider our market.”

Pete, OKC also has the only Airstream store in the state.

https://www.airstreamofok.com/

Is Bonobos Classen Curve on your first to Oklahoma and only in OKC list?

The other problem that OKC has is that it’s areas of high income are dispersed and are surrounded and intermingled with areas of low income. Nichols Hills is wealthy, but a 3-mile or 5-mile analysis would include the Village and areas east of Western/Wilshire. Quail Creek is well off, but geographically close to the apartments along 122nd/Penn. Even farther north, there are beautiful subdivisions and then they put $200K tract homes all interspersed in between.

Very true. Nichols Hills has some stunning mansions, but there's no gradual transition into the low income areas. It always feels a bit bizarre driving through it.

If I could have any store in OKC, it would probably be a Nordstrom, but I'm jealous that Tulsa has a Saks.

Very true. Nichols Hills has some stunning mansions, but there's no gradual transition into the low income areas. It always feels a bit bizarre driving through it.

If I could have any store in OKC, it would probably be a Nordstrom, but I'm jealous that Tulsa has a Saks.

That Saks is very meh. Barely above the Penn Square Dillard's. Those are basically just as nice, in my opinion. But most department stores aren't in expansion mode.

I believe Tulsa will be the first to get Scheels (https://www.scheels.com/store?StoreID=028)

And I love Scheels. So do my kids.

I believe Tulsa will be the first to get Scheels (https://www.scheels.com/store?StoreID=028)

Thanks, I added it.

There's a Lego store at Woodland Hills in Tulsa and DIck's House of Sport (expanding the existing store at 71st and Mingo) and REI (71st and Elwood) are both under construction

Tulsa was the first to get Cinergy. It’s a really awesome movie theater.

Tulsa was the first to get Cinergy. It’s a really awesome movie theater.

Concur. Very cool theater. Similar to Showbiz in Edmond.